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Nothing wrong being done here. Not at all. Nope.
On one hand, I'm hoping for an announcement at the Madogatari thing next month.
On the other hand, I'm not in a hurry to see all my headcanon/fic work invalidated just like that.
Is anything new happening, other than the spin off manga series continuing? I haven't been paying attention to these threads.
Is MamiKyou canon again yet?
>>1901616
>Is MamiKyou canon again yet?
It was never canon
>>1901675
It is to me. Mami x Nagisa is the most forced thing ever.
>>1901686
But Nagisa a cute
>>1901686
Followed shortly by that KyouSaya moment in rebellion.
>>1901616
>MamiKyou canon
>Implying implications
>>1901718
Yeah, the only thing that felt natural, regarding relationships, was the HoMado stuff. Everything else was unnecessary.Sayak should've stayed dead.
>>1901718
At least they have interaction in the series.
Kyouko and Mami have a non-existent relationship
>>1901738
That's usually because Mami spends too much time being dead for them to have much interaction on screen.
>>1901567
Is it a faux pas to wear an outfit based on your tiny friend's murderous expression of her despairing soul?
Also, likewise. It's been over two years with no new official content. I'm beyond withdrawals. I'm losing hope. Madogatari is my last beacon of hope.
>>1901559
lewd or disgusting?
>>1902217
Depends on your fetishes.lewd
>>1902217
It's cute
>>1902217
Girls peeing on other girls is cute and pure! Cute and pure!
>people hating on KyouSaya
Fuck you all to hell, go find something else to complain about
>>1902241
I don't understand what people find special in that pairing. It's almost as lame as shipping stick figures.
>>1902241
>Forever in middle school
Homu, please. Stop causing massive temporal shifts and let everyone grow up.
>>1902241
>Liking the most boring and forced ship
Costanza_63.jpg
>>1902264
What the fuck do you mean forced?
Its forced because they actually show examples of their relationship as opposed to showing no interaction whatsoever as is the case with KyouMami?
>>1902257
>grown up HomuMado
More?
>>1902271
"Oh no, the BOY I had a crush on is dating someone else. Guess I better settle for the weird homeless girl."
Shit tier ship
>>1902276
>implying
It's more like.
"Wow I'm glad I didn't get together with my high school crush. He just cares about violins and the street rat chick is a much better partner."
>>1902276
I know you're just shitposting, but I laughed.
>>1902257
It's not her fault that everything goes to hell and she needs to start again.
>>1902295
I'm pretty sure that after enough failures it probably starts counting as her fault....
>>1902275
There is this serie made by silverxp a few days back, anyone wants to copy the translation from booru?
>>1902386
>>1902388Devil shows how it's done
>>1902388
Basically, I skipped the first two pictures, Madoka is the teacher in the school, and Homura visits for her birthday.
Kaname Tatsuya's friend : Is she really a close friend?
Kaname Tatsuya : Define "close friend".
>>1902241
It's the second most forced ship in the franchise. There is literally no reason why either of them should actually have any romantic feelings for each other.
But if you want me to complain about something else, sure. I fucking hate Nagisa, she was a completely unneeded character that existed purely for fanservice. Then the fanbase paired her up with Mami, just because Charlotte bit her head off a few times. That's some forced boring bullshit right there.
>>1902517
I am a fan and I like to be serviced.
>>1902525
I'm glad you enjoyed it, but all the fanservice in Rebellion made what should have been a 10/10 into a 9/10 for me.
>>1902534
Honestly, I was coming off the tail end of having watched the series again and then the movies, I don't even really remember Rebellion, I just think she's cute.
>>1902535
You are right, she is cute. I should actually clarify, I don't hate Nagisa, I hate her role in the story. She's a fine character, she just shouldn't have been in Rebellion.
>>1902536
Ah, I get you.
>>1902394
Tatsuya with glasses a cute.
But this isn't /cm/.
>>1902536
She did it for the cheese!
>>1902536
>She's a fine character, she just shouldn't have been in Rebellion.
I don't think there's anything particularly interesting about her, compared to the rest of the cast. She's cute, sure, but that's not saying much in anime.
We don't know anything about what her personality is like, apart from the fact that she really likes cheese (wtf).
If they really wanted to show us what Charlotte was like as a magical girl they could have done a much better job. Right now she just seems tacked on.
>>1902637
Nagisa and the fanservice helps make Rebellion's ending more potent
HEY LOOK SAYAKA AND KYOUKO HOOKING UP
HEY LOOK TIRO FINALE CAKE TANK
HEY LOOK CHARLOTTE IS A GOOD GUY AND HELPING
SURELY
NOTHING
COULD
GO
WRONG
>>1901616
Now I want a gag thing where Sayaka's main role is to have her attempts to interact normally with the others sabotaged by her vague, contextless memories of being an angel.
>Madoka and Hitomi: Hey Sayaka, ready to go to class?
>Sayaka: Did this hand I see before me once command the very stars themselves? I mean, I was gonna check out a book first!
>M&H:...that's cool, see you in class!
>>1902375
Homura made a promise to Madoka that she was damn well going to keep. Besides. Every time she went back, everyone else was dead or a witch.
>>1902375
She's hardly go the best options for teammates.
Mami and Sayaka aren't really that dependable.
>>1904064
What's Nagisa saying in the last panel?
>>1904107
well, part of it is definitely a scream. (note the long string of repeated characters)
>>1904107
>AAAAH! I'm sorry, I won't do it anymore!
>>1904154
Dankeschön
>>1904202
bitte schön
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2015-10-30/madogatari-exhibit-updates-crossover-goods/.94843
So if the exhibit opens on the 27th, is that the earliest possible day where we'll know if sequel announcement is happening or not?
Have there been any hints about a stage event or anything where the announcement would potentially happen, or is it just "the exhibit starts in November"?
>>1905825
There's a talk stage on the 29th.
http://www.madogatari.jp/event/
>>1905830
Fingers crossed!
>>1905825
If a sequel doesn't get announced then again, I wouldn't be much disappointed.
I still think that Rebellion was a satisfying conclusion to the story.
>>1905946
I desperately want to see the continuation of Rebellion's cliffhanger and the showdown between Blue and Black.
I'm hoping for an announcement this month.
>>1906073
Unless Sayaka can destroy Homura's phylactery before Homura can react, she can't win.
(She would also have to have some level of power or memory of the other universes, which she has neither now.)
The only person who can stop being directed by Homuras Lotus Eater Machine is Madoka, and Madoka wouldn't actually fight Homura.
This is how I view the final "battle" playing out:
>Homura tries to get Madoka to beat her
>Madoka ain't having none of Homura's shit
>Homura tries attacking Madoka to force her to defend herself
>Homura doesn't want to actually hurt Madoka
>Madoka easily dodges
>Madoka hugs Homu from behind and tells her that it's alright, and that she forgives Hou
>Homura is now crying
>Madoka consoles her
>they make new universe
>together this time
>the new universe is SO FUCKING GAY
>seriously.
>gayer than anything you have ever seen
>gayer than anything you can think of
>the new universe is that gay
>it's great
>>1906241
I would love for that to happen, but I get the feeling things aren't going to go so well.
>>1906245
It's not going to be a neat and tidy outcome no matter who you're rooting for.
I'm just looking forward to the struggle.
>>1906246
All I want is a romance slice of life about Homura and Madoka's married life.
Has any anime or manga had such a drastic change in it's genre like that before?
>>1906241
I can't imagine a situation in which Madoka, even law of cycles Madoka, could beat Homuhomu akuma. Madoka is only really effective against witches. Which is why she lost the second Homuhomu's soul gem shifted past curse-colored--If Madoka wasn't able to subvert the machine in that single instant where she remembered she was the law of cycles, she will probably never be able to... her memories are only every going to get fainter and fainter and more disconnected from her existence as the Law, and to begin with, I just don't think that--even completely aware of the whole situation--she has the power to break free of Homu-chan. Since she wasn't able to stop the shattering even when she was full Madokami, and Homuran hadn't yet ascended into akuma.
It would be really awkward and forced for there to be any sort of real "fight" between Homura and worst girl, who wasn't even a capable puella magi or particularly strong witch.
It would really just be Homuchhi playing the villain and fighting them half-heartedly and either letting herself die, or faking her death to watch them live from afar.
>>1906252
Didn't they sort of confirm that much of Devil Homura's power is stolen from Goddoka?
I expect one of two revelations: either Devil Homu isn't as powerful as you were led to believe (she's still the most powerful Magical Girl after Goddoka, but not nearly godlike in power), or Sayaka will make a big sacrifice to gain the necessary power to stand toe-to-toe against Homura (but still be largely outclassed).
>>1906252
>worst girl
Ha ha ha, no.
>>1906246
I especially can't wait to hear what kind of showdown music Kajiura will create for their fight.
I hope it's something like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUN13Gfs4Tw
Why does everyone want to see Sayaka vs Homura?
I want Madoka vs Homura, ending in kissing
>>1906274
>Why does everyone want to see Sayaka vs Homura?
It's the most untouched character dynamic in the series.
On a dramatic level it works because regardless of whether they truly hate each other or not, there's a clear line of tension between them, and it's mostly centered around Madoka, who they both care about the most.
Thematically it works on several levels, because Sayaka is someone who has been saved by Madoka's sacrifice, while Homura is someone who let herself fall into darkness also for Madoka's sake.
It's also prime suffering material, because if one or both of them dies, Madoka will despair greatly.
>>1906277
Plus I want to see Sayaka embrace her inner JUSTICE and Homura embrace her inner DIO.
>>1906267
I don't believe that they ever confirmed anything about how Homura got her powers. However, it stands to reason that she grew more powerful just like Madoka did over the course of her Groundhog-Day loops. Thus, allowing her to be much more powerful than everything else through sheer willpower.
Also, her phylactery can't be corrupted anymore, yet is also fully corrupted at the same time. (Though, with love, instead of despair.)
We should also remember that while Madoka is the embodiment of Hope, Homura is the embodiment of Love, and Love is MUCH stronger than Hope. Always.
>>1906246
Sayaka has essentially no chance in hell of ever beating Homura unless Homura throws the fight intentionally. Also, Sayaka, again, has no ability to get out of Homura's Lotus Eater Machine.
>>1906252
I agree with you, if it were a fight Homura wanted to win.
Homura doesn't want to win. She's likely going to release Madoka from her L.E.M once Madoka's lived a normal life, and then submit to Madoka's judgment, while trying to get Madoka to actually punish her.
Because remember: Homura doesn't think she deserves to be happy.
I mean. she could have created a new universe with only Madoka and her, and lived happily with her mind-slave Madoka. But that's not what Homura wants. Homura wants Madoka to be legitimately happy, not tricked into being happy. Homura also wants her own suffering, because she doesn't deserve to be happy, or next to Madoka in her own eyes (though, being next to Madoka would be about the only thing that WOULD make Homura truly happy).
>>1906284
I imagine at the very least Homura will toy with Sayaka, then gradually raise her power while Sayaka stubbornly refuses to give up.
Then she possibly goes too far after some heated exchanges followed by Sayaka's death.
>>1906286
Nah. Homura knows just how much Madoka cares for Sayaka. If anything, Homura would let herself die, if anyone were to die in the exchange.
Though, I doubt that Sayaka would be capable of destroying Homura's new phylactery, which means that Homura can't be killed by Sayaka. They ARE liches, after all.
>>1906287
If only there were some way she could make a contract for more power....
>>1906291
The incubators are Homu's slaves.
>>1906287
I'm of the opinion that she would probably be the first to break free. Likely due to Homura slipping up thanks to her general self hatred. Sayaka would then rally Mami and Nagisa at the very least and try to awake Godoka. Not sure what would happen with Kyoko, as she is the only one i can see siding with Homura and her siding with Homura would at the very least be interesting.
>>1906292
Until one manages to break free long enough to help plan her downfall....
>>1906295
Homura isn't going to slip up. If she could spend 12 years watching Madoka die over and over and over again without slipping up, she can go for 100 years without slipping up without having to face Madoka dying more than once.
>>1906295
This is Homura's world. Her will is absolute against mortals and normal liches.
(I'm also pretty sure she killed all bur one of them and/or made it so they actually need to eat 'n shit.)
>>1906267
>worst girl
>Ha ha ha, no.
-------
>Be a young girl
>Become magical girl
>Father brands you a witch, kills your entire family and himself in front of you
>grow jaded but keep fighting
>Be a young girl
>Become magical girl
>Fail to save your family because you only thought of yourself during wish
>Internalize suffering and guilt over your family dying because of your selfishness and keep fighting
>Be a young girl
>Watch all your friends die around you
>Become magical girl
>Watch all your friends die around you and kill each other over and over
>Keep fighting
>Be forced to kill the person you love most with your own hands
>Grow jaded and internalize suffering and keep fighting
>Be forced to watch the person you love most disappear and turn into a concept, vanishing from the memories of everyone else in the universe besides a baby
>Keep fighting
>Be forced to struggle against your own mind and being unsure if the person you love ever really existed
>Give in to despair and become a witch
>Draw your friends into a labyrinth and build them a perfect life where they can enjoy every day and fight together having fun
>Try to kill yourself to keep the person you love's secret safe
>Be Sayaka Miki
>Become a magical girl
>The boy you have a crush on gets taken by your friend because you don't confess due to being a magical girl instead of a human
>Cave into despair within days
>Become a witch
>Attempt to kill your friends
>Get saved and brought back by friend to continue fighting despite your massive failings
>Become cocky and self-confident despite having never accomplished anything but fucking up and making things more difficult for your friends
Please explain to me how she is not absolute trash.
>>1906308
>Be Sayaka Miki
>have a nice life but know the injustices of the world
>discover a seedy underbelly of suicide and despair and only a few girls are able to combat it
>deliberate on wishing, feel unhappy that privileged you get the opportunity but there are others out there who deserve it way more
>eventually can't take the hopelessness and depression one of your childhood friends shows
>selflessly wish for him
>but there's an undercurrent of wanting him to thank you which you don't realize because you're a kid
>try your best to save others
>but there's a bitch who likes to beat you up and call you an idiot for trying to make the world a better place
>eventually learn your soul is split from your body, which is a disgusting concept in Japan
>the bitch who is becoming less of a bitch isn't as affected because she's Christian and souls and bodies are inherently separate in that religion
>your best friend gives you the chance to ask out the boy you like or she'll do it, but you can't do it because you're disgusting, you're not a human
>despite all the good you did fighting witches, there are humans who are just naturally horrible
>this world is not worth saving, you are not worth saving
>become witch, get taken out
>become a part of the law of cycles, realize that you were a bit of a dick to Kyouko and Homura
>try to rectify this as you save Homura from the Incubators' plans
>fight to snap Homura out of her suicidal state, complete with a familiar army
She's best girl
>>1906267
>>1906284
The power is all pretty much tied to wishes. Madokami isn't really "god" she's only god-like in that her wish forcibly rewrote the universe to become true and create a world where she was able to stop witches from ever existing by vaporizing magical girls before they turned. This is also why she is extremely limited. She can't just will things to change because she wants them to (see: unable to just get Homuhomu out of incubator isolation field, unable to stop YanHomu from shattering her). She can kill witches before they form, that's kind of her limit.
Homura's power, based on conjecture, comes from her wish, to meet Madoka again and protect her. Her wish is more powerful in nature, because unlike Madoka's it isn't so limited in scope. Theoretically, Homura was able to cast down Madokami, ascend to being Akuma and rewrite the universe, because the Law of Cycles was basically Madoka's prison for all of eternity, so Homuhomu's wish gave her the power and rewrote the universe to "protect" Madoka from that fate. Which is why Madokami will never win. Even if she broke free and returned to being the Law, for Homura's wish to come true (which wishes always must) the universe would just be rewritten again to allow Homura to free her a second time, protecting her from the prison again.
It's a pretty insanely powerful wish. It's effectively made her immortal and is probably the reason why she is the sole human being who seems able to retain consciousness and choice was a witch, continuing to attempt to protect Madoka even when she has gone full-witch and should be trying to kill everyone.
Again, just conjecture.
>>1906310
>have a nice life but know the injustices of the world
>discover a seedy underbelly of suicide and despair and only a few girls are able to combat it
>deliberate on wishing, feel unhappy that privileged you get the opportunity but there are others out there who deserve it way more
>try your best to save others
Same as every magical girl.
>eventually can't take the hopelessness and depression one of your childhood friends shows
>selflessly wish for him
>but there's an undercurrent of wanting him to thank you which you don't realize because you're a kid
Just because you don't realize you're actually wishing for your own benefit doesn't make it selfless. And, let's be real. Her wish is a complete and utter joke compared to the wishes of Kyouko, Madoka and Homura.
>but there's a bitch who likes to beat you up and call you an idiot for trying to make the world a better place
Mami dealt with Kyouko's jaded nature too.
>eventually learn your soul is split from your body, which is a disgusting concept in Japan
>the bitch who is becoming less of a bitch isn't as affected because she's Christian and souls and bodies are inherently separate in that religion
Madoka and Homura aren't Christian.
>your best friend gives you the chance to ask out the boy you like or she'll do it, but you could have asked him out for years but were too much of a complete coward to do so
ftfy
>despite all the good you did fighting witches, there are humans who are just naturally horrible
You mean despite a couple days worth of good, done not for the sake of good, but to deal with your angsty depression over a high school crush.
>become a part of the law of cycles, realize that you were a bit of a dick to Kyouko and Homura
>try to rectify this as you save Homura from the Incubators' plans
>fight to snap Homura out of her suicidal state, complete with a familiar army
More like become a part of the law of cycles and then get told what to do.
>>1906310
>>1906317
I don't know how you can possibly argue she is anything other than worst girl. She goes through NOTHING compared to the other four girls in the show, and yet is the first to go into "woe is me, the world is so dark" and become a witch.
Three of the five girls watched the people the love get killed in front of them and they didn't turn into witches, two of those were indirectly responsible for the deaths, the third did the killing herself. Sayaka is pathetic.
>>1906317
>>1906318
You're implying that every single girl needs to make the best, most selfless wish and then have the fortitude to take all the shit that comes with it. That's what makes Sayaka a pretty good character - she's a normal teenage girl. She hasn't gone through hard luck, so she doesn't know how to deal with it, so she snaps under the pressure and her own hatred of what she's become. Kyousuke and Hitomi wasn't what turned her. It was just a domino in a long chain.
Wishing for Kyousuke was selfless (with selfish intent), because Sayaka did recognize she could wish for whatever she personally wanted. Instead, she healed her friend/crush.
Mami murdered the others the moment she learnt magical girls become witches. She has her own strengths but she's not so strong.
Or are you forgetting Nagisa "I wished for a cheesecake to share with my Mom when I should have cured her cancer so I'll turn into a witch almost straight away!" Momoe?
>Homura [isn't] Christian
Probably not but she did attend a Catholic school for some time. She also does not consider herself human. And Madoka's a different case because she knew this issue before making a wish.
>>1906321
No, I'm implying that of the five main magical girls of the show. She makes a crappy wish, and then she goes from zero to full witch mode over something that hundreds of thousands of kids go through in high school. She is not a normal teenage girl, she is pathetic. Most teenage girls don't get their crush stolen and then lose all interest in life and become suicidal (which is what Sayaka does when she starts fighting without regards for her body and not bothering to cleanse her soul gem). That was the majority of her path to witch. No, it wasn't the final trigger, but it was 90% of her soul gem's corruption.
I'm sure if she had asked him out and he had said yes, Hitomi wouldn't have spiraled into deep depression.
Mami did exactly what Madoka ends up doing. She freaks out and decides it's better to die right there than slowly face the eventuality of becoming a witch. I agree it wasn't a good thing, but at least she had more of a reason for snapping than Sayaka. Mami was betrayed after causing her family's death and then getting through the guilt based on the idea that she was helping save the world, fighting with that belief for years before being betrayed--and then snapped and lost her values.
Sayaka was NTRd by a high school crush and fought for a few days in deep depression to "save the world" and then snapped and went witch.
I'm glad you bring up Nagisa, because it's important to note that the two people who become witches are a 9 year old and Sayaka. I might concede that Nagisa is the "worst girl" if she weren't a literal child who also only really appears at the very end of rebellion.
I'm sorry, but no matter how you cut it, and even completely ignoring her wish, Sayaka is the worst of the quintet.
>>1906317
Anon you are replying to was talking about Kyouko. Kyouko IS christian (or was raised as one, anyway).
>>1906326
Homura also becomes Homulilly. Though, watching the only person in the universe that you love die more than one hundred times over the course of twelve or more years is a pretty damn good justification for falling.
Everyone saying Sayaka is worst girl, only like her after Rebellion because her relationship with Kyoko.... ¬_¬
>>1906317
>Mami dealt with Kyouko's jaded nature too.
There's no proof of that, the only thing the show mentioned about the two was that they knew each other but not very well it seems.
>>1906463
>¬_¬
Not here, bruh.
I'm pretty sure Rebellion in general redeemed Sayaka's character (least for those who despised her in the TV series).
>>1906312
My theory is a bit more roundabout.
The basis for magic is emotion, mainly hope and despair. Something that's more powerful than both though would be love (brighter than hope and deeper than despair I think). Everytime Homura failed she felt a lot of pain and that pain built up a little more over the cycle.
At the ending she thought through why she chose to suffer so much and realised that it was because she was in love, and so all the pain became proof to herself of how powerful her love was ("even pain is dear to me"). She's basically still a magical girl, except she had her magic stat jacked up to infinity to the point where she can bend and break the rules of the universe to her liking.
In a way she did get her power from the cycles but in a different way mechanically.
I love how fans are using "suffering levels" as power levels to measure who is Best and Worst Girl.
>>1906510
No one is Best or Worst Girl; all of them have their virtues and weaknesses, despise they tell you otherwise... except with Sayaka, which almost everyone unfairly spend their time bringing her weaknesses (even cataloging her as a bitch sometimes) instead of understand the circunstances of her decisions
>>1906522
The same people dumping on Sayaka are obviously the same ones who think Homura is perfect and that there is NO WAY IN HELL that she could possibly be challenged in the sequel.
You know what Homura's biggest weakness is?plot twists
Stop arguing over who is worst girl.
They are all best girls
>>1906529
Not all of us who Love Homo hate Sayaka. I dislike her, yes, but it's her personality that I despise above all.
>>1906529
I'd say her biggest weakness is self-loathing, though ribbons are also a strong contender.
Anyway, I like Sayaka. I like her quite a bit, in fact. My primary concern for a Sayaka vs. Homura sequel is the danger that it would end up endorsing the same sort of foolishness that doomed Sayaka in the series, thus rendering the overall message/philosophy of the franchise incoherent.
The main conflict of the movie will be Homura and Sayaka discussing who the fuck is Madoka's best friend
>>1906574
Homura is Madoka's girlfriend and Sayaka is Madoka's best friend.
Fucking difficult that was.
>>1906574
Sayaka is Madoka's best friend
Homura is Madoka's "best friend"
>>1906284
This guy knows what's up. Pretty much my thoughts exactly.
>>1902271
>literally nothing in the 12 episode show, barely relate to each other
>1200 kyousaya doujins later
>rebellion now ships them
yeah totally, it was totally not forced.
>>1906618
>>literally nothing in the 12 episode show, barely relate to each other
You should probably rewatch the show.
>>1906622
Oh I have, this is the one ship I can never see even with goggles poised.
>>1906618
>>literally nothing
They literally died together.
>>1906624
So Kyouko changing her entire way of life and world view after meeting Sayaka and ultimately killing herself so she wouldn't have to die alone reads to you as the actions of a casual acquaintance?
>>1906634
whats with the pills?
>>1906637
antidepressants? suicide? who knows
>>1906639
heart meds maybe? Or for whatever the balls Homura was in the hospital for as I've honestly forgotten.
>>1906637
It's the cover for a doujin novel with "omegaverse" setting.
>>1906642
I didn't think the japs actually got on that trend.got a link?
>>1906642
english translation?
>>1906643
Author's pixiv: http://www.pixiv.net/novel/member.php?id=1469841
I think that specific book is getting a DL edition on Melonbooks by the end of the month.
>>1906326
>I'm glad you bring up Nagisa, because it's important to note that the two people who become witches are a 9 year old and Sayaka.
And Madoka, from using too much power. And Homura later. The witches of the others also exist in timelines that are not shown.
Another thing I feel was heavily implied but everyone seems to ignore is that it seems the darker someone's gem is the more depressed they become, which loops back on itself causing their gem to become darker. Using magic and not using grief seeds speeds this up considerably.
I also don't understand how people can think Sayaka's depression was entirely or almost entirely from just not getting the boyfriend she wanted, especially when she straight up says she can't confess to him because she is too disgusted with the fact that she is a walking corpse. Something hard to empathize with for a lot of people, but I would imagine the anguish she felt would be similar to what a christian would feel if you removed their soul (or "them") from their body and then proved that you had done so.
Then there is also Kyouko who admits that she lets people die out of selfishness right to Sayaka's face and beats her to a pulp while laughing at how stupid her ideals are, and also Mami whose recent death one would assume would be quite troubling for a 14 year old girl, especially when they can't talk to anyone about it.
I don't think she is best girl but calling any of the five worst is kind of shitty, especially if you are going to ignore most of what happened to them.
>>1906626
Not to mention the special ED they get with Kyouko drowning with her with a smile on her face as they sing a duet.
I don't know why, but this always cracks me up
>>1906658
One must also remember that Madoka never successfully corrected Sayaka's misunderstanding about Homura letting Mami die. That makes her refusal to listen or accept help later more understandable (still stupid, but understandable).
>>1906658
>especially if you are going to ignore most of what happened to them.
I'm amazed by the kind of people who profess to be big fans of shows they clearly did not understand at all, especially when they aren't in any way difficult to get.
>>1906574
The best part about the current conflict is that it's essentially the two of them believing they understand what's best for Madoka.
>>1906326
>Most teenage girls don't get their crush stolen and then lose all interest in life and become suicidal
You're completely missing the point of Sayaka's arc. She's not in despair because she didn't get Kyousuke, she's in despair because she sacrificed her normal life for Kyousuke and didn't get him. She hates that her wish to heal his arm didn't win his love, and she hates herself for hating that, because expecting something in exchange for sacrifice breaks her ideal of altruistic heroism. She hates the fact that the wish she really wanted to make was the selfish version of the wish, as Mami discussed with her - she didn't want Kyousuke's arm to be healed, she wanted to be the one to heal Kyousuke's arm. That's what prompts her self-destructive spiral, trying to go all Mind of Steel and be a true altruistic hero. She can't accept the cruelty of acts of good being balanced by despair rather than rewarded, and she can't accept that she /wants/ to be rewarded - hence even going as far as refusing Grief Seeds, to prove to herself that she's fighting selflessly, rather than for any (completely normal) selfish desires for acknowledgement or even simple survival.
This is also why the theater scene at the end is so important. At the very end of her life (for now...), she's given the opportunity to reassess her wish, and to accept the selfless act of sacrifice and all its consequences from the bottom of her heart instead of secretly believing that she'll be rewarded for her selflessness, finally letting her live up to her impossible ideal.
(As an aside, I think it's interesting that the other "hero", Mami, originally made a selfish wish. She can cope better than Sayaka, because for her, the lack of reward for her selflessness is simply paying back what she received (or punishment for failing to save her parents as well), not a broken, evil world paying back kindness in cruelty.)
Sayaka is an hero
>>1906716
>she's in despair because she sacrificed her normal life for Kyousuke and didn't get him
That's not really accurate either. Her despair really starts when she realizes she's a zombie, before Hitomi announces her intent to pursue Kyousuke.
>>1906754
And what's her conclusion from the zombie revelation? That she can never be with Kyousuke, because she's a monster. Hell, that's why she refuses to challenge Hitomi about her pursuit in the first place, because she's already decided that she's unworthy thanks to her sacrifice.
>>1906642
Why the hell does HomuMado get a Japanese fic and some pretty decnt English fics of that stupid kink and MamiKyou get a swathe of shitty fics, but there's never been *one* KyouSaya one? I would even take shitty fics.
I mad.
>>1906758
Sayaka's probably a representative of what most magical girls go through. They take up the mantle thinking they're going to save the world, find out they're woefully unprepared, and then the despair cycle crushes them.
Remember that using up your magic battling witches has an adverse effect on your emotions. Which in turn makes you less effective during your next battle. The worse you are at fighting them (for whatever reason), the sooner you end up turning into a witch.
The whole point of Sayaka's character was to illustrate the faults inherent in the system. I don't dislike her, I pity her. That's part of what makes KyoSaya enjoyable for me. With Kyouko at her side Sayaka can have a better life, and Kyouko ends up happier too.
>>1906813
But there are decent KyouSaya fics.
Also, I'm not sure I know what "omegaverse" is.
>>1906844
It's a specific kink universethat's futa for F/F pairs, mpreg for M/M pairsdealing with humans with mild canine traits. Omega boys and girls go into heats which can only really be satisfied by alpha boys and girls.Knotting and pregnancy/breedingall feature heavily. Just think of it as furry-lite. It's a massive guilty pleasure of mine.
>>1906813
You call it stupid, but you're jealous?
>>1906857
I call it stupid because it is kinda stupid, but I love it. Or think of it like me saying "that damn kink".
>>1906855
Personally I feel likeknottingand heat are the hallmarks, but not necessarilyfuta. The first fic I ever read alpha girls had tofistomegas instead and were actually very desirable because they could help them through their heats without the risk of pregnancy. No magic babies that way though.
Basically you can sort of do whatever you want with it.
>>1906855
That sounds really dumb and more like something for /d/
>>1906817
It's a contrast between the "just" world that Sayaka and other naive girls expect, where unasked karmic reward for altruism exists, and the reality of the pre-Madokami universe, where hope is balanced with despair and the more good you do asking nothing in return, the more you have to pay for it. In terms of Kyousaya, that's also why they see themselves in each other - Kyouko sees in Sayaka's altruism the girl she used to be and can't admit that she still admires, while Sayaka sees in Kyouko's selfishness the girl she can't admit she secretly fears she might be as well.
>>1906868
Agreed.
>>1906873
There is no place for us.;_;
>>1906855
That's terrible I hate it.
Futa should be banished
>>1906912
Homura roflstomps her.
Unless by some contrivance that she wants to be defeated, but really I'd only picture that happening vs Madoka
>>1906932
Sayaka will defeat Homura by having a threesome with Kyouko and Madoka.
>>1906947
And 99% of the work will be carried by Madoka. If they're able to win at all.
>>1906869
>unasked karmic reward for altruism exists
>hope is balanced with despair and the more good you do asking nothing in return, the more you have to pay for it
Sorry, but I don't buy any of that. The presence of such a system of reward and punishment would only be possible if there's some sort of higher entity controlling the whole thing, and for all we know Madokami is the first of her kind.
The outcome of all the wishes can be explained through perfectly mundane explanations that don't resort to the existence of karma. Sayaka got screwed over because she made a stupid wish and was too stubborn to ask for help from people who didn't fit her ideal of a magical girl. Mami died because she truly believed in the heroic nature of magical girls, resulting in her being overconfident. Madoka's wish was successful because she made a clever wish and was willing to sacrifice her humanity for the sake of others.
>Kyouko sees in Sayaka's altruism the girl she used to be and can't admit that she still admires, while Sayaka sees in Kyouko's selfishness the girl she can't admit she secretly fears she might be as well.
Sure, I agree with that.
>>1906950
Are you implying Sayaka and Kyouko are poor lovers?
Not to be a fag, but True by Amaranthe really seems to fit Homura in Rebellion, minus a fair amount of self loathing I suppose.
https://youtu.be/b0Hef-UjAN4
>>1906955
>Sorry, but I don't buy any of that.
Then you're in headcanon territory, willfully ignoring the much-repeated theme in the series of hope and despair balancing out, and I've no interest in talking further. It doesn't even require karma, merely the expectation of karma or justness from the girls - Sayaka expects rewards for her altruism and despairs at the uncaring world and her own desires. Mami expects punishment for her selfishness, and doesn't despair despite the uncaring world.
>>1906963
Not that anon, but I'd tend to agree that there isn't some cosmic deity that makes sure karma plays out the way it should or that wishes 100% come true like has been suggested by another anon.
But I agree that karma and hope balancing with despair is a very large theme in the show. I think its more of a 'that's just how it works out' type of thing and that magical girls despair and become witches. I never really got the vibe that magical girls spread hope or however they phrased it, however.
>>1906973
As far as the Madoka universe is concerned, hope and despair are concrete concepts. You can turn them into power, and when despair builds up rather than being channeled into magical girls, it turns into wraiths that kill people. There doesn't need to be a cosmic deity for that, any more than there needs to be a cosmic deity for electromagnetism or gravity. It's just a law of nature.
>>1906976
I suppose you can think of it that way. I'm just hesitant since so little explanation was given that its really kind of hard to say how the mechanics of all of the magic business works.
>>1906990
I think there's more than enough to conclude that the balance of hope and despair is more than just a cynical proverb. Madoka's increasing power and insta-witchification as Homura keeps looping is an extremely significant part of the story, and denying that is denying a significant amount of exposition and explanation for no real reason.
>>1906637
Probably heart medication.
>>1906574
???
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/madokas_position_is_in_dispute#1
>>1907011
I wasn't saying you were wrong, just that I'm hesitant to nail stuff down like that with how little we're given.
On that note, why does Madoka insta-witch as her power increases? Seems like she should progress like other magical girls unless there's something I'm missing.
>>1907011
Also, if hope and despair weren't actual things, QB's energy harvesting would rather fall apart.
>>1907021
The energy scale involved already makes absolutely no sense, so I'm not really worried about that.
The fact that his goal is staving off the heat death of the universe and he spends his time harvesting emotional energy from little girls means the sheer quantity he'd need to harvest to mean anything is well beyond stellar scale.
>>1907020
Hope is balanced by despair. The more hope her wish creates as a magical girl, the greater the force of despair. When she's strong enough to insta-kill Waluiginight, she's also got so much backlash that she turns into Gretchen right away.
It is a little odd that we don't really see similar effects in other characters, and you might think that it ought only impact her power as a witch rather than how quickly she turns into one, but I think that's something we're not supposed to think too hard about, given that it's an explicitly-provided explanation for what's going on. Maybe it's like relativistic effects, and you only start seeing more than just statistical noise at very high quantities.
>>1907024
That's what I mean, hope is balanced by despair in quantity, rate doesn't really factor in as far as we know. Shouldn't she just be an uber powerful magical girl then eventually turn into an uber powerful witch? If not, why? As you said we don't really see any effects like that elsewhere.
>>1907023
Though, maximum entropy is not likely to ever be reached period.
First, let me define Entropy, and what Maximum Entropy is/would be:
Entropy is the process by witch energy finds equilibrium as it is given off. (Radiation is a form of entropy.)
Maximum Entropy would be a state in which all energy in the universe has reached equilibrium.
(No life can exist, no stars can exist, nothing but dead matter that's too small to create a gravitational field and equal energy would exist.)
One hypothesis that supports that maximum entropy cannot be reached is the idea that the universe expands faster than entropy can be gained, thus making maximum entropy impossible to reach.
The other is that, as the universes energy has never been in a state of equilibrium, it cannot reach it.
>>1907031
Doesn't have to be maximum entropy for the universe to be a pretty shitty place to live.
Point being the energy scales are so disparate they're not even comparable.
Tanks incoming:
Tart 1 [RAW]
http://www.mediafire.com/?c3pavrdcur8j45c
Oriko Extra Story [RAW]
http://www.mediafire.com/?38dxa9b8c57qabn
Oriko SP 1 [RAW]
http://www.mediafire.com/?bcfm1lckg63ncv7
Mami Nichijou 2 [RAW]
http://www.mediafire.com/?fr8d98yx5koicf1
>>1907032
The thing is is that it does, because that's what the incubators claimed to be fighting against. Not the heat death, but maximum entropy.
>>1906963
Hope and despair are emotions. They don't have to be tied to reward and punishment, altruism or greed. Those are what are at the core of the Incubators harvesting plan, not some nebulous concept of karma.
>It doesn't even require karma, merely the expectation of karma or justness from the girls - Sayaka expects rewards for her altruism and despairs at the uncaring world and her own desires. Mami expects punishment for her selfishness, and doesn't despair despite the uncaring world.
Alright, that I can agree with. The way the girls interpret what's going plays a part in what emotions they feel.
My point is that it doesn't matter how altruistic the wishes the girls make are, what matters is how they feel about them and how they react to events post-wish.
>>1907077
>They don't have to be tied to reward and punishment, altruism or greed
They are, though. It's one of the series' core themes, and there's no reason whatsoever to assume that every one of the many times the concept is brought up is a lie. Despair /isn't/ just an emotion in this series, it's a concrete property that operates on its own set of rules and can affect the rest of the world.
How altruistic a wish is only matters in terms of how the character reacts to the fact that hope and despair must balance out, but the fact itself is inescapable unless you're Madoka with a hundred timelines of despair behind you.
>>1907079
>Despair /isn't/ just an emotion in this series, it's a concrete property that operates on its own set of rules and can affect the rest of the world.
Yes, I'm not disputing that. I'm saying its cause has an emotional basis (feeling despair) and a mechanical one (soul gem gets cloudy after too much use without refilling). Those are independent of whether the girl makes an altruistic wish or a selfish one. There may be a correlation, but one doesn't guarantee the other.
>How altruistic a wish is only matters in terms of how the character reacts to the fact that hope and despair must balance out
Yeah we're on the same page there.
>>1907085
From what the series tells us, they're largely equivalent concepts. If a magical girl gives someone hope, then an equal curse has to fall elsewhere. For example, Sayaka at the train station with Kyouko:
>For all the happiness you wish for someone, someone else gets cursed with equal misery. That's how it works for magical girls.
>>1907102
Not sure you should be accepting the reasoning of a depressed high school girl as some concrete indication of the way the universe operates. In fact, it seemed pretty clear to me that she was making an incorrect assumption based on personal bias.
The turning hope into despair thing is an incubator end goal, as >>1907077 said.
The existence of the Law of Cycles is in direct conflict with the idea that hope and despair are actually balanced. Madoka's entire thing as Madokami is to let the other magical girls fight to bring more hope into the world and then she kills them before that hope can turn into despair and corrupt them into a witch. Unless you think Homuhomu's despair was, by itself equivalent to all the hope brought into the world by puella magi anywhere ever, then despair is certainly out-measured by hope post law of cycles wish.
Even in second universe, the wraiths didn't seen anywhere close to the level of despair that witches were able to manifest, and you still had puella bringing tons of hope into the world that never saw an equal amount of despair because Madokami was still dispersing them.
If you think about it, witches themselves are an indication the two aren't balanced--if witches are equal in despair to the hope they brought as magical girls, like Sayaka guesses, then anything they do post witch (bringing despair to others) is additional despair that wasn't accounted for in the hope they spent, creating an imbalance.
>>1907109
>Not sure you should be accepting the reasoning of a depressed high school girl as some concrete indication of the way the universe operates.
So it's random, meaningless babble that just happens to be totally consistent with all of the rest of the series? If you don't like Sayaka as a source, what about Homura telling Madoka the exact same thing?
>Her curse became as powerful as her wish. It was only a matter of time, really. And from now on, for each person she saved, she'll curse another in return.
>The existence of the Law of Cycles is in direct conflict with the idea that hope and despair are actually balanced.
Uh, the entire point of Madoka's wish is to make it so that they're not. Of course that doesn't hold true post-Madokami - her whole purpose is bringing back hope to magical girls.
>If you think about it, witches themselves are an indication the two aren't balanced--if witches are equal in despair to the hope they brought as magical girls, like Sayaka guesses, then anything they do post witch (bringing despair to others) is additional despair that wasn't accounted for in the hope they spent, creating an imbalance.
This is over-thinking a simple concept. The amount of hope a girl creates is balanced by the despair of her witch; why do a witch's actions create "extra" despair any more than a magical girl's create "extra" hope?
>>1907047
I'm more than willing to let that pass as semantics from a layman author/translator.
None of what you're saying even addresses the point that the energy scales cannot be further apart.
>>1907112
Not that anon, but
>This is over-thinking a simple concept. The amount of hope a girl creates is balanced by the despair of her witch; why do a witch's actions create "extra" despair any more than a magical girl's create "extra" hope?
What about Nagisa? Forgive me if this wasn't confirmed as canon, but didn't she wish to eat cheesecake with her mom, then instantly despair because she didn't wish to cure her cancer? So the hope she generated was pretty much nil, but then her witch form went on to kill at least Mami, and probably others in other timelines.
What I'm saying is there doesn't seem to be anything that would necessitate that these things are balanced. Its not like witches are born with a finite amount of energy (despair equal to the hope of the magical girl) that once spent they disperse. There's plenty of scenarios that I can think of that would cause hope to not equal the despair.
I might let this pass as a hope of the universe must equal the despair of the universe type thing kind of like entropy, where the entropy of the system doesn't necessarily go up, but the entropy of the universe always does. But that can raise even more questions.
>>1907333
>>1907112
What about Homulilly? Homo's witch form is perfectly content to sit in it's barrier and keep trying to kill itself, while not luring in anyone else. Hell, I'm pretty sure that even if someone wondered in on accident, they wouldn't be attacked unless they tried to interrupt the prepossession.
Homura brought no hope to anyone and creates none (intentionally) in her witch form.
She just wants to die.
>>1907405
What exactly constitutes hope? Despair? I'm not sure and the show doesn't help too much either.
I'd say you offer a good point about Homulilly, though I might contest that Homura brought exactly no hope.
>>1907333
The thought occurs to me that maybe Mami's death was about balancing Mami's hope and despair output rather than Nagisa's.
>>1907112
>This is over-thinking a simple concept. The amount of hope a girl creates is balanced by the despair of her witch; why do a witch's actions create "extra" despair any more than a magical girl's create "extra" hope?
For example:
The amount of despair Sayaka felt (the amount that corrupted her soul gem) was equal in measure to the amount of hope she created in the world as a magical girl.
But then she becomes a witch and continues to create new despair despite no more hope being created by her. This is true of all witches, if they aren't killed by a different magical girl, they will continue to seed despair effectively forever, creating way more despair than they ever made hope as a magical girl. In other words, the hope = despair concept only works while magical girls are actually magical girls, afterwards they become a limitless source of despair but do not create any more hope (and the magical girls who come kill them and create hope are balancing out that hope with their own despair).
So you end up despair heavy pre-Madokami, and hope heavy post-Madokami.
>>1906634
So Homura is an Omega and Madoka is a Alpha? That's interesting.
>>1906646I would buy that.
>>1907467
The curses the witch will create are equal to the hope she gave as a magical girl. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the transformation itself is spreading a curse.
>>1907581
Not that anon
Its the fact that unless they're killed witches will spread curses indefinitely. Hence that things left alone will go out of balance and that it goes contrary to the hope = despair theory.
>>1902536
nagisa did have a role in the movie moron. they needed a witch and they picked the one people wanted to see.
>>1906312
madokami is a god in the non western sense. she is a kanon and Bodhisattva
>>1906955
>>theres a perfectly resonable explination.
are you seriously bringing fedora tipping into an anime rife with cryptic symbolism?
>>1907410
To bring hope means to make people feel better, and believe that tomorrow will be better.
Despair is the disappointment you feel when you realize that nothing is ever going to get better.
(That's what I think, anyway.)
>>1907527
Always knew Homu was an M.
(Wish I had a version of this pic without the text. . .)
>>1907609
Not to mention if hope and despair are truly equal that despair would have to somehow create hope.
Forcing people into suicide cults or making them sit at a tea party with monsters forever (until they leave, then you kill them) doesn't bring a whole lot of hope to anyone.
>>1907635
No, she's a Kami in the Shinto sense. She controls one thing: the non-existence of witches. That's all the power over the world she has.
>>1907659
Keep in mind she also has whatever powers transforming into a magical girl gives her.
Mami's wish had nothing to do with muskets or enchanting baseball bats I am sure, but the ribbons ability did in a poetic way.
It's magic. It works however the plot needs it to, or however is interesting.
>>1907659
This is much-repeated speculation with no actual source.
>>1907609
>the hope = despair theory.
>theory
It's an explicit and repeated explanation central to the story. Are we just ignoring the reason that Madoka gets stronger and more dangerous with every loop?
>>1907609
But they're not left alone. Embodiments of despair are stopped by embodiments of hope, and the cycle continues.
>>1907706
>Are we just ignoring the reason that Madoka gets stronger and more dangerous with every loop?
That's from her karmic burden, how important she is to the world/universe. I don't recall Kyubey mentioning that hope/despair had anything to do with it.
Can /u/ recommend Madoka fics with lots of Angst and Edginess
>>1907661
Her Muskets are made of her ribbons.
So was the bats enchantment.
>>1907954
That just fits the "It's magic, it works however it needs to or is interesting" thing even more then.
>>1907789
These Doujin fit your criteria, I think.
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_one_and_only_wish#1
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/whirling_the_last_love_song#1
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/evangelium#1
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/homura_centric_manga#1
>>1907967
It's creative use of something that you can manipulate at will. She has an infinite amount of ribbon, which she can manipulate as she sees fit. She doesn't even need to have the muskets. She could just fire her ribbons as things without the,
>>1907042
thanks anon
>>1905825
>sequel announcement
Stop.With.That.Shit
>>1908220
Just because you've lost hope doesn't mean we haven't!
>>1908536
I honest to God don't ship them.
But I am filled with warm comfort whenever I see them hugging.
It's a special tier of Adorable Best Friends that no one else can touch.
>>1908548
>>1908550
>>1908551
>>1908548
>>1908550
>>1908551
Cape hugging is pretty cute
>>1908600
I wonder how many first kisses Homura had during her endless loops?
>>1908607
Probably zero desu, unless they were accidental kisses or someone pulled a Mugi circa season 2 of Rinne no Lagrange.
>>1908607
Probably zero.
>>1908612
>>1908617
You don't think she sparked any romance with Madoka in an early timeline? She went through about 100 of them, I'm sure she tried different things
>>1908607
Knowing her luck, none.
>>1908820
That's some cute ass shit right there.
>>1908607
I'm sure Homu lost it at least once and locked Madoka in a basement somewhere.
>>1908853
There's a fanfic of that.
It was pretty good until Homura locked up Sayaka with her (which was really idiotic) and it turned into Mado/Saya.
>>1908860
post fic!
>>1908990
http://archiveofourown.org/works/577310/chapters/1035515
>>1908860
Salaka ruined everything.
>>1909058
Sayaka always ruins everything. But hey, thats worst girl for ya
>>1909058
It's true.
If she would just NOT be a Magical Girl, she wouldn't cause so many problems. It's her death or witch transformation that has caused either Mami and/or Kyouko to die countless times.
And she will ALWAYS fall if she becomes a Magical Girl, too.
>>1909103
Yes but without her magical girling, Kyoko won't undergo character development and stop being a selfish bitch and Mami is still one push away from being a total emotional wreck and popping soul gems. The whole situation was unwinnable until Madoka made the right wish with enough groundhog day loop magic behind her.
>>1909216therefore Homura did nothing wrong.
Why would Kino be featured on here?
>>1909240
http://myanimelist.net/anime/2175/Kino_no_Tabi:_The_Beautiful_World_-_Byouki_no_Kuni:_For_You
>>1909243
I was startled for a moment because Kino has one heck of a Homu-face going on in that poster.
Daily reminder she needs more fanart
>>1909261
Where is she from again?
Stopped following the expanded universe stuff when I realized they were all trying to one up each other in grimdark levels.
Last one I read one of the girls was killed in the very first chapterby the main character
>>1909261
That's Sasa right?
>>1909282
Oriko Extra Story, you can download it here >>1907042
>>1909294
yes
>>1902936
Sayaka: "Vanishment, this world-o!"
>>1908607
I bet most of these were initiated by Madoka.
>>1909321
It's going to be the way she defeats Devil Homu in the end
>>1909483
Yep. Only love can beat love.
(Coincidentally, Homo loves being stepped on by Madoka.)
https://twitter.com/SLVR79/status/660841465199874048
https://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/10590
>>1910164
cute/10
>>1910976
There is indeed. It's got some text though, that I don't care to bother removing
Mahou Shoujobu 1 [RAW]
http://www.mediafire.com/?ae8h23ni23uqsnj
Mahou Shoujobu 2 [RAW]
http://www.mediafire.com/?4ds6v4lpaoabdvh
>>1911182
thanks anon
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7940625/26/Resonance-Days
Are there any good madohomu fics? Something obscenely long that can consume me for a while would be ideal. But I'll settle for almost anything
