People think the Martha scene was dumb and I can see how they would, but I really liked that it showed Batman as someone with a deep seeded mental problem. I guess everyone wants to believe he's just some "epic" guy who beats up criminals but I think it's really commendable that Snyder, Goyer, Terrio or whoever decided to show him as a vulnerable crazy person.
I don't think the movie was perfect but I really liked that scene and that presentation of the character.
>>72124308
>but I really liked that it showed Batman as someone with a deep seeded mental problem.
you mean besides dressing up like a Bat?
>>72124331
That's exactly it. We never think of it that way in the comics or other movies but Bruce Wayne obviously has severe issues and never quite got over the death of his parents. Not that it haunts him and inspires him to bring justice to criminals, but that it genuinely made something not quite right in his head. I mean, he dresses up like a fucking bat.
>>72124308
The only reason this scene wouldn't work is if you have a specific preconceived notion of the character. It made perfect sense in the context of the film and was in line with the characters as they've been presented.
>>72124308
>Goyer
You just can't make that up.
>Goyer was raised by his mother. He is Jewish on his mother's side, and attended Hebrew school. He has stated that in regular school, "a lot kids beat me up, saying that I killed Christ. I was very consciously different... I grew up with something of a chip on my shoulder."
Of course vigilante christian white guy must certainly be some batshit insane guy, not just some of the last civilized men trying to put some order in a complete degenerate and subverted society.
>>72124352
>we
No. Most people think a man who dresses up like a bat and punches people has severe mental issues. Its only the snyder fans who, somehow, manage to forget the fact all their characters willingly dress like clowns, and then expect everyone else to take the movies super serious, and get upset when they don't.
>>72124715
I disagree. People tend to accept these movies on face value and forget how fucking weird it would be if a guy ran around beating up criminals in a black suit and called himself "Batman". You watch Batman (1989) or the Chris Nolan movies and because of the way it's presented, you don't really question it.
>>72124602
It didn't work because it was cheesy and forced. It may have been perfectly in line with the characters, but the characters were stupid as well.
>>72124308
I'm pretty sure the people claiming the Martha scene is garbage are meme-ing, it makes total sense and the film hammers home how triggering Bruce's parent's death was like 3 times, how can they NOT get the scene
>>72124834
Stop speaking for yourself as if your opinions are representative.
>>72124909
>it makes total sense
it was a contrived conclusion to a contrived (seven minute) conflict that was the title of the movie.
Superman, being superman, should've just been able to grab clark by the arms and hold him still so he could explain what was happening. Instead both characters brains take a vacation for the entire movie so as to justify more CGI explosions.
>>72124913
I think my opinion is pretty representative of the public view of these films. If people didn't take these worlds at face value then everyone would say that Batman Begins was stupid because in the real world people don't dress up like bats and fight crime to cope with grief.
>>72124909
Likewise, I'm pretty sure people defending this ridiculously contrived scene are simply meme-Ing, most likely because defending this movie in a genuine manner is impossible.
>>72124999
considering batman begins only made 350m, most people did think to themselves thoughts to that effect.
it was only TDK that showed people something special regarding the batman character.
>Suffice to say, there was always more depth and subtext to the “Martha” moment than the complaints are willing to admit or recognize, and those complaints are still too simplistic and shallow a perception of what is, in fact, a complicated convergence of character arcs and narratives. It confuses and shocks Batman, and then the revelation of what’s really being said shifts his perceptions to the point he now sees himself clearly for the first time in years. A singular moment, a revelation that turns a character’s understanding and relationships on their head in a split second, is not a new concept, nor is this the first or most extreme example of such a thing in cinema.
>It’s undeniable that there is much more happening in that scene, and in the context of Batman’s character through time, than the memes and jokes recognize — and yes, often the jokes intentionally overstate things for humorous effect, but I’ve seen the exact same points made in supposedly serious, deeper critical analysis of the film. So I remain perplexed by the stubborn refusal to consider and acknowledge that complexity. I bring that up only because I notice even a lot of the positive reassessments still point to the “Martha” moment as a major problem in the storytelling when it’s among the finer elements in the film’s characterizations.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2016/03/22/review-batman-v-superman-triumphant/#ecd04513cbdd
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2016/06/28/review-batman-v-superman-ultimate-edition-expands-story-and-wins-praise/#261b16866225
http://pulpklatura.tumblr.com/post/141843209469/batman-v-superman-the-modern-revenge-tragedy
>>72125142
That's nice and all, but its undermined slightly by
>batman doesn't do any research on superman before going to "kill" him.
>>72125080
>Implying box office means anything at all
Plus in 2005, that 350m was nothing to scoff at. Especially considering the last film in that franchise was Batman & Robin and it was a few years before the superhero craze even hit. Considering that most of the cast and the director weren't that famous, I think it did remarkably well.
For what it's worth, BB got an 85% on rotten Tomatoes, an 8.3 on IMDb and a 70% on meteoritic and it is still a very loved and respected film
>BvS
>go in expecting They Live-tier epic fight scene between Armor Bats and Kryptonite Poisoned Supes
>Superman: READ THE FILES THAT PROVES LUTHOR IS BEHIND THIS THAT I HAVE IN MY HANDS! *punch*
>Batman: I'M NOT READING NO FILES!!! *kick*
I guess I expected too much...
>>72125228
Oh so box office doesn't mean anything. Despite TDK making a billion, over 500m domestic, 3 years later.
also acting like 2006 is some FAR FLUNG past is kinda painting you as quite underage.
>>72125251
>>Superman: READ THE FILES THAT PROVES LUTHOR IS BEHIND THIS THAT I HAVE IN MY HANDS! *punch*
>>Batman: I'M NOT READING NO FILES!!! *kick*
Stuckmann?
>>72125251
Blackman VS Scottsman: Brawl of Eyewear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9rrgJXfLns
>>72125251
Its pretty silly for a regular human to have any sort of conflict with superman at all, unless that human breaks out the kryptonite first thing. Which bats didn't.
>>72125279
It doesn't indicate the quality of a film at all. Or even if it did, it doesn't say specifically what audiences didn't respond too.
I didn't mean that 2005 was a far flung past. I just meant given the context of the films release in 2005 (with all the factors I mentioned), I think it did pretty well.
>>72125279
Does OP being underage threaten you? I kind of hope he is. I'd hate to be a jaded old fuck in my 40's shitposting on /tv/ and having arguments with kids.
>>72125363
Oh we're talking about film quality now, rather than what people thought of it.
good to know.
See, for some odd reason (because its all that I was ever talking about, and all you were ever talking about until you were proven wrong and decided to completely change gears) I thought we were talking about what the average person thinks of when they see a man dressing up as a bat and punching people.
>>72125401
No son, adults are not threatened by children. But every child thinks this at some point. So don't worry, it'll pass and you'll come to realize you're pretty stupid right now.
>>72125407
When the average person sees a man dressed up as a bat punching people, they think of the classic comic book character Batman. In the context of the world that character comes from, this behaviour is entirely normal.
Martha' is set up in the opening scene with a Citizen Kane homage that establishes the word as Bruce Wayne's 'Rosebud'. But, as it's actually spoken by the father character, you get a complex series of associations where Bruce suddenly sees Superman as a father figure, who then - when Lois intervenes - morphs into a reflection of himself. You also have this strange fear of motherhood with Bruce as he dreams that Martha Wayne returns from the dead as a monstrous bat (that metaphorically gives birth to Batman), but then he resolves himself to saving Martha Kent - who was, of course, labeled a 'witch' for (again metaphorically) giving birth to Superman.
Apologize
I remember reading somewhere online that the movie only needed to add one extra scene to justify the context of that "Martha" moment.
Basically, you have Clark investigate Bruce's family's deaths early on, learn their names, and then boom! The entire "Martha" scene is now reframed from Superman's point of view, that we, the audience, know he's deliberately fucking with Batman's head in that moment to trigger a reaction.
>>72125461
Zeus and his Fight with Typhon
After the glorious victory of the Olympian gods over the Titans, Mother Earth Gaea became very angry with Zeus, the King of the Olympian Gods, because she felt that he had treated her sons, the Titans, unjustly.
Gaea therefore unified with Tartarus (the symbol of the depths of the Underworld) to create a devastating monster which was meant to destroy Zeus and take his place. They gave the monster the name "Typhoeus" (Typhon).
Typhon had frightful features and enormous powers. Soon, he attacked the home of the gods, flaming rocks at it, hissing, screaming and gushing mighty streams of fire from his mouth. The bare sight of the creature was enough for the Olympian gods to run away scared and flee to Egypt, where they transformed into animals.
When Athena, the goddess of wisdom, accused Zeus for cowardness, he decided to confront Typhon. Armed with thunder and lightnings, he struck at the monster with a sickle and then chased him until Mount Casion, which rises over Syria.
Seeing Typhon severely wounded, Zeus engaged him in a hand-to-hand combat. But all at once, Typhon wrapped Zeus in his coils, held him firmly and wrested the sickle from him. Typhon soon left Zeus helpless by cutting the tendons from his hands and feet. Then he took Zeus to the Corycian Cave, on the slopes of Mount Parnassus, and appointed his sister Delphyne, a she-dragon that was half beast and half maiden, to guard Zeus.
However, Hermes, the son of Zeus and the goat-footed Aigipan managed to fit the tendons back into Zeus without being observed. Immediately after Zeus recovered his strength, he made a sudden descent from heaven on a chariot drawn by a winged horse. Hurling thunderbolts, he pursued Typhon strongly and when they reached the island of Sicily, Zeus threw the enormous Mount Aetna at the monster, pinning him underneath.
The volcanic eruptions that rise up from Mount Aetna to this day are said to be issued by the thunderbolts of Zeus.
>>72125454
son, seriously, you're just coming off as autistic at this point.
>>72125543
>Basically, you have Clark investigate Bruce's family's deaths early on, learn their names, and then boom! The entire "Martha" scene is now reframed from Superman's point of view, that we, the audience, know he's deliberately fucking with Batman's head in that moment to trigger a reaction.
But that's unnecessary spoonfeeding, there's enough moments in the movie to suggest that Clark has done exactly that, from the moment of Luthor's party Clark became suspicious of Bruce Wayne with the overheard communication, and it's finally confirmed when he goes to confront him in gotham and Superman straight up says "Bruce, I was wrong."
>>72125543
>smart people
>snyder movies
pick one
>>72125621
You don't have to be so snide.
>>72125617
No, that's basic functional story telling.
having superman JUST SO HAPPEN THROUGH SHEER LUCK say JUST THE RIGHT THING to stay bruce's hand is horrible writing.
>>72125666
>No, that's basic functional story telling.
aka spoonfeeding
>>72125666
I still enjoyed the movie but I agree with this. It should have been properly forshadowed (from Superman POV). I mean, they literally could have just added a 5 second scene of Clark staring at a computer screen that reported the Wayne murders.
>>72124308
how comes everybody in this movie has a mental problem?
>>72125883
They have horrible father figures.
>>72125883
Please stop putting Jesse Eisenberg in movies
>>72125927
>it's actually true
>>72124990
This
Supermans could either explain the situation to Batman or kill him immediatelly
Fighting half-hearted against him made literally no sense for Supes
>>72124308
>prasing Goyer's shitty script
It almost seems like OP is retarded or just trolling.
>>72126047
Well he wasn't exactly thinking rationally at the time. He probably thought BEATING Batman into helping him find his mother was a viable strategy.
>>72126047
Did you watch the Ultimate Edition? Serious question.
>>72126197
>Well he wasn't exactly thinking rationally at the time.
Nobody was thinking rationally during the whole movie
>>72126247
I don't know. Was the ripped version the ultimate edition?
>>72126197
Also, I believe Snyder confirmed another deleted scene (not in the theatrical or ultimate cuts) that had Supes flying around the city looking for his mother unsuccessfully before deciding to fight Batman.
>>72126277
Alfred was
>>72124352
> We never think of it that way in the comics
Why do people talk about shit they blatantly have no idea about
>>72126692
yeah, I guess Alfred was kinda alright
>>72126277
>I don't know. Was the ripped version the ultimate edition?
it would say if it was.
In any case the reason I ask is because in the Ultimate Edition Clark goes to Gotham to investigate Batman and he meets the girlfriend of the guy who kidnapped those women after he's been stabbed to death in prison, she laments that someone like Batman can't be convinced with words and only fists matter.
Same thing happens in that fight Clark tries to talk down Batman at first to show that Batman can't hurt himbut after that he gets gassed and beaten on. It's that moment he realize he can't talk him down and Batman is wholly obsessed with fighting him so he retaliates with earnest.
>>72126344
Snyder sounds like a kid who goes on about how he would have won a fight easily if he did this or that. A fight he lost irl.
BvS is a failure. Even the better Ultimate Edition fails.
>>72126864
>Same thing happens in that fight Clark tries to talk down Batman at first to show that Batman can't hurt himbut after that he gets gassed and beaten on.
Between Supes talking and him getting gassed there is a time of several minutes where he fights Batman half-hearted for literally no reason.
I fucking love it
>>72126000
nah
>>72124308
I don't understand how they couldn't have spun it so Lois said Martha instead
Clark ALWAYS called her Ma so this was incredibly out of character
>>72127079
Batman is refusing to listen to him. Superman shows him a little of his power, and how easily he could kill him, in the hope that Batman will stop being a twat and listen for a moment.
Do you think Batman would just quietly listen if Superman held him down?
superman's best option at that point was to beat the fight out of Batman.
>>72127435
>Do you think Batman would just quietly listen if Superman held him down?
What else is he supposed to do?
Cover his ears, "lalala I dont hear you"?
>>72124602
The problem is, BvS Batman is veteran Batman. He has gone through some serious, traumatic shits inflicted by the Joker and other villains and he has lost many good people. His methods in dealing with criminals and his perspective/purpose on life have changed. And at that point, its safe to say that his parents death is no longer an important issue for him. He should've had moved on from that point in his life. Never mind this Batman, even Nolan's Batman has dealt with it in less than 10 years. I dont want to bring up comic books Batman because "its not muh Batman", I understand that.
So, the Martha scene doesnt work because this Batman shouldn't be easily moved by the memories of his parents death. It doesn't make any sense because it seems like the only major event he has experienced lately is his parents death and nothing more, that one "Martha" word can change his view drastically on this superpowered alien he's wanted to kill for the last 2 years.
I cant imagine what could;ve possibly happened if Joker knows this trick in their early confrontations. Best friends forever?
>>72127784
>He should've had moved on from that point in his life.
HE CAN'T THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT OF HIM BEING BATMAN!
JESUS CHRIST
>>72127495
Just because you can hear something it doesn't mean you are listening.
>>72127784
>I cant imagine what could've possibly happened if Joker knows this trick in their early confrontations. Best friends forever?
That's a sorta good way to see it but it seemed to me the only reason they were fighting was because Batman refused to listen, if he had known the full situation he would have never fought with superman in the first place. The Martha thing just caught him of which gave Superman a chance to explain himself, and i kinda feel like if Joker said it he would be equally thrown off it's just that Joker wouldn't have anything worthwhile to say after. Especially considering once Batman knew Supermans mom was in danger killing him would basically be taking two innocent lives playing right into Lex's trap.
>>72124308
I honestly don't know why people are focusing on Batman being the problem in this scene. I think Affleck does a perfect job in it, and whether or not you agree that he gave up too easily after hearing his mother's name, I think Ben Affleck really sold the impact. You can really see him being confused and angry, and finally just decides to let it go.
BUT what didn't work, was Cavill's line delivery, and that hasn't been brought up as much as it should. And I'm not talking about, ''how he should say mom instead of Martha'', no, I get why he did that, but the way he did it, was just too over the top for me and honestly the only flaw in that scene in my opinion.
