Aside from raping Stamsa and cutting off Reek's dick (who deserved it for killing those two children tbqh), was Ramsey actually that bad? I mean sure he was sadistic, but for the average Northerner peasant, why should they care whether the Starks or the Boltons rule Winterfell?
He killed his father, who was a better man and better ruler. That is all that matters.
>>71089445
Technically he didn't rape Sansa. Her marriage to him was consensual and it was their duty to consummate the marriage.
>turned Theon into damaged goods so that his father wouldn't negotiate
>managed to lose Salsa after she was served to them on a silver platter
>went around flaying undiscreetly so people thought less of the Boltons
>committed kinslaying
>had the numbers, a keep, the last living male Stark south of the Wall and rations to last them but still managed to lose the war to a fucking zombie and his hoard of goatfuckers
He was a constant disappointment for his namesake.
>>71089445
Ramses was mentally ill and liked killing people, not for glory or the greater good, but because he liked the ain he inflicted in others. So yes, Ramses deserved to die
Sansa deserved to be raped
>>71089445
He was one of the most interesting characters,his scenes were some of the most entertaining and memorable. I don't think his hounds would have turned on him,ever.
In the show:
>imprisoned lady Hornwood and left her to starve to death in a tower
>tortured numerous innocents to death
>guilty of kinslaying (murdered his father and infant half brother)
He's unambiguously evil.
You can't rape you're wife, she was his property.
he also hunted humans for sport
>>71089537
This. It was their wedding night so you knew sex was gonna happen. She never said no, and just because it's rough sex doesn't mean she didn't enjoy it. I honestly think it's debatable whether you can even rape your wife honestly.
>>71089594
>2 retarded teenagers become leaders of armies and fuck everything up
>CIA rides in and wrecks shit
>>71089537
>>71089733
>people actually justifying rape
>>71089797
>>71089537
It still is technically rape, what you're arguing is that the rape is justified by the context and rules of their society (which may be true)
>>71089761
If it weren't D&D I'd think it was a deliberate portrayal of inexperienced and ignorant boy-commanders botching a battle and being cleaned up by somebody competent.
>>71089689
but you can find his behavior cruel nonetheless
even characters in the universe that live by such morals would find him cruel
>>71089845
A marriage doesn't count until it is consummated,and she didn't say no,sooo......
not rape senpai
>>71089913
nonconsensual sex is rape even if the marriage itself is consensual
>>71089445
go back to your containment topic, cancerous faggot.
>>71089445
>tortures people "just for fun" like a complete edgelord
>toys around with people and plays edgy games with them
>starves his dogs constantly and treats them like shit so they'll be viscous at all times
>treated sansa, his wife, like complete shit
>killed his dad who was a far better person and ruler than him, although roose was also a psychopath, he was less sadistic and more refrained about it
>acts like a tough guy when in reality he's just a little bitch
>pussies out of honorable combat and runs away from a battle after hiding at the back the whole time
>we'll never see osha's great tits again because of him
Yeah he was that bad and deserved to die.
>>71089445
Stop this rape meme
He never raped her
>>71089855
>mfw the only interesting themes D&D can write are purely accidental
>>71090031
>acts like a tough guy when in reality he's just a little bitch
Why?
>>71089858
Yeah exactly. By today's standards he raped stansa, but the show and books take place during medieval times, in which back then, fucking your wife isn't really rape, even if she doesn't want it at the time.
The thing is that although it's not wrong to fuck your wife back then in those more barbaric times, it's still morally wrong and frowned upon to do it against their will. Tyrion never fucked stansa because he knew she didn't want to and he's above that morally and intellectually.
>>71089855
Ramsay had that battle completely in the bag, though. He was slaughtering Jon until LF rode in, and he was a completely unexpected factor, basically an in-universe Deus ex Machina.
>>71090092
>pussies out of honorable combat and runs away from a battle after hiding at the back the whole time
>>71090031
>>acts like a tough guy when in reality he's just a little bitch
kek, the greatest crime of all
Don't forget he killed his brother and step mother
>>71090123
He had that specific battle in the bag but he took a huge amount of unnecessary casualties for the sake of being an edgy, just what an ignorant boy-commander would do.
>>71089689
>>71090107
It wasn't like he was just plowing her gently to get his rocks off and then stopped, he was torturing her
he probably burned her with wax, fucked her ass dry, squeezed her clit with tweezers, hell he maybe even let his hounds have a go at her.
>>71090031
>>we'll never see osha's great tits again because of him
this is what really stuck in my craw tbqhwymf
>>71090278
>probably
they never showed him doing anything to her remotely torturous.
>feminist power fantasy show constantly throws scenes at audience reminds us that a sadistic raper raped the damaged goods character
>UNDER MY PET DEFINITION IT WASN'T RAPE
Autistic or just a board full of pedophiles being in denial about sex crimes again?
>>71090356
Please she has undoubtedly been knotted
>>71090356
She was covered in bruises when she was begging Theon to save her and she said to LF "I can still feel what he did to me"
it's not like when Robert would just drunkenly plow Cersei a few times and then roll over and go to sleep, Ramsay is a fucking sadist
>>71090406
>She was covered in bruises
It's called bdsm
>>71090559
What do you get out of this discourse?
>>71090123
>Ramsay had that battle completely in the bag, though
Let us count the mistakes he made.
1. Despite knowing well in advance where the battle will be fought he doesn't bother sending out scouting parties to protect against surprise attacks from hidden troops, which might have been prudent considering he knows Jon has wildling raiders in his army and such tactics would be more their style than standing in formation. Of course there was never any danger of such tactics from Jon because he's a total retard, but if Ramsay had bothered to send out scouts he might have noticed SEVERAL THOUSAND VALEMEN RIDING IN HIS DIRECTION.
2. Despite having a highly fortified position (Winterfell) he chose to engage in the field despite this offering him no tactical advantage whatsoever. But at least he still had more cavalry, giving him superior maneuverability and flanking advantage. Only...
3. He squandered any advantages his superior cavalry numbers might have given him by ordering a charge directly into the enemy cavalry, resulting in a bloody melee.
4. He then has his archers continue to fire on his own troops, resulting in the total eradication of his cavalry.
5. Despite all these blunders he still manages to come out ahead thanks to Jon being even more of a fuckup, but then he goes and commits his reserve infantry to a costly and pointless pincer attack that gains him no tactical advantage and leaves him utterly exposed.
Jon's mistakes would exceed the 1500 character limit.
>>71089537
Yes but I'm pretty sure anal fisting is still a no-no, even within marriage.
>>71090833
Jon is a fucking idiot. He got himself killed before, almost got himself killed again fighting Ramsey, and will most certainly get himself killed in the near future doing some other idiotic shit, like he always does.
He takes random small folk into the woods for his "hunts", most often, they're women.
Under the Starks everyone up North was treated pretty well. Neither Ned nor his parents fucked with anyone without good reason.
>>71089667
>>71089913
name?
>>71089537
I wonder this.
Obviously irl in first World country's what he did was rape. but in Westeros is it?
>>71089761
To be completely fair to Jon, his only leadership experience is with the Night Watch and some savages with very little knowledge of tactics. The largest number of people he ever commanded was a few hundred, and never against a genuinely organized force.
I mean, one of his top advisors was Tormund, a man that literally prides himself on fucking wild animals. His sister has no military experience whatsoever. The only person in Jon's corner worth a shit was a man that used to shill onions to starving people and only a year or two ago literally could not read.
Ramsay had the Umbers and all manner of people that could've advised him, he was just too much of a dipshit to properly utilize them.
>>71089445
For the average Northern peasant, Ramsay is an absolute madman that goes around hunting random people with his dogs as a form of entertainment. He burned Winterfell and the surrounding settlements and blamed the Ironbabies for it.
His father was "evil, but good for the people". Ramsay was a psycho.
>>71089963
The sex on their wedding night was consensual
>>71091381
Was it? It happened offscreen and the implication seems to be that it wasn't.
Reminder the battle of winterfell should have been roose vs jon snow. this le 20 good men meme man is a bland character. with roose vs jon it would be a cool battle with clever tactics and actual character development
In the books it's hinted at the he had his dogs rape Theon numerous times
>>71091511
It would have been hopelessly one-sided. If GRRM were writing it. But since it's D&D Roose would lose all trace of his established cautious and conservative nature and would do basically the same thing Ramsay did minus the edgy killing Rickon shit.
>>71091134
andi pink
>>71089537
>when the guy is hot it isnt rape
>when the guy is average or bad looking its rape
>>71091468
implication seems that is was.
The only implication that it wasn't was mr cockless crying like a bitch. It the scene had went on longer i bet sansa would have been moaning like a slut
>>71090404
>>71090278
It was heavily, heavily implied after his favorite girl died that she had been raped by dogs, and that he was turned on by it.
I would put the likelihood of Sansa being knotted by Ramsay's command at about 90%, and the likelihood of her being knotted by Jon Snow's command at about 85%.
>>71089667
That was very unrealistic. Dogs are extremely loyal and wouldn't attack their master
>>71089537
This.
>>71089797
>>71089845
>>71089963
>>71090967
You're all retarded. No shit in our modern world that would be classified as rape. But in that world it's not whether you like it or not.
>>71091744
You're wrong actually, it is rape. it's justified rape in the context of the show universe but still rape nonetheless.
>>71090258
Ramsay with his edgy headgames got Jon to attack prematurely before they could set up their trenches and wait for Ramsay to come to them
Ramsay with his edginess also wasted a lot of his own guys' lives
In the end its probably about a net even result, if not slightly better for Ramsay because we know he thoroughly defeated Jon's army with his method. If he was just a normal leader Jon would have taken it slowly and had a much better setup and tactics to take out more of Ramsay's men himself, and possibly could have won alone, who knows.
At least Ramsay got to entertain himself before he was going to get BTFO either way
>>71091806
>evil samwise
>>71091806
The numbers are totally fucked so it's hard to be certain either way but I was under the impression that Ramsey's wall of dead bodies gambit got an unnecessarily large number of his men killed and that he would have had a much cleaner victory with more conventional tactics and possibly been able to defend himself against the late reinforcements.
>>71091787
That's what I just said you idiot.
>>71089689
This.
>>71089445
That episode had some amazing cinematography during a portion of Jon's battle: the long takes had great CGI and background effects while Jon kicked ass and it looked nice. The drowning in his own men and his enemies' bodies was well done.
But MY GOD was this also another nail in the coffin for D&D's writing skills. NOBODY IN THE NORTH REMEMBERS. IT'S A DEAD MEME. Everyone except for a handful of Mormonts and Free Folk are willing to fight for the North, the rest are being the knee to an obvious psychopath who is willing to kill his allies just to make a wall of bodies.
Best episode of the season no doubt, but that's also like coming in first in the Special Olympics. I hope this kind of shit makes George mad enough to write.
>>71089797
>people actually justifying rape
Nope. They were married, so it cant be rape.
>>71091971
No it isn't you goober
Wait so were the wildings protecting Jon?
Also why did Ramsey even bother trying to kill Jon once the keep had fallen.
>Hear his reputation as one of the greatest swordsmen ever
>See that the gods (plot) has made him pretty much immune to arrows
>See him slaughter your men
>See that his people love him and would have killed and tortured your shit even had you killed him
>Decides to shoot arrows instead of going at it with his daggers or RUNNING
>>71091728
I mean, up to a point. just like his human subjects, he conditioned them using fear. if the dogs are hungry enough and notice that the master can't hurt them at all, their animal nature will take over.
remember that they are trained to hunt humans, so they know humans are delicious.
/r/ing the luckiest man in westeros image
>>71092070
*tips*
>>71092126
Apparently you can't read you dingus.
>>71091468
Yes it was. Its not rape, when youre married.
>>71091953
Doing the edgy Rickon bait, and then fighting conventionally might have gotten him a win or at least a better chance against the Vale army, but that's not how Ramsay does things.
You live by the edge, you die by the edge
>>71092201
I guess you can't either, how coincidental that the random typing of illiterates is creating a conversation.
>>71090278
go on, what else might he have done to her?
>>71092263
marriage is irrelevant to the definition of rape
>>71089445
That nigger did nothing to earn his name and he was a constant bitch. I get that it's "smart", but he didn't even lead his men to battle and the second he realized he might have been fucked. He noped right out of there and at the last second challenged Jon to a 1-on-1. He got what he deserved. All of that ignoring the fact that he totally fucked his family over by killing everyone.
>>71091787
It isnt rape, not irl or in their world.
>>71092341
how so
>>71092328
Wrong again.
>>71092375
They were married.
>>71092412
>>71092434
is this a fresh new meme
>>71092514
>>71092274
You said it's rape, I said it's rape.
You said it's justified rape within context of the show, I said it's not rape within context of the show.
If it's justified, then it's not rape.
What is Sansa going to name her and Ramsay's rape baby, and why is it going to be Rob?
>>71092575
>If it's justified, then it's not rape.
well there's your problem
>>71092616
It's not rape in the show if they're married. She can't go out, report it and get Ramsay arrested. She's under his authority.
I'll repeat, it IS rape, but not in their world.
>>71092773
Ignore him, he's obviously baiting.
>>71092876
Who tf are you?
>>71091728
Ramsay is not a fucking dog whisperer, his bloodhound training was "EAT THAT CORPSE" and "TAKE DOWN THAT MOVING TARGET"
Also they were starved very often and Ramsay got placed in a bloodied and weak state in a cell full of hungry dogs. Ultimately the dogs will want to live and to live they have to eat
>>71089516
First post best post
>tfw no more Roose
>tfw no more Tywin
>tfw no more Ned
Everyone is just secondary now ;_;
>>71089445
>I mean sure he was sadistic
Nigga please, Marquis de Sade would've blushed.
He was a great villain though.
>>71089963
In today's feminist dominated society maybe
>>71091078
No he won't because this show is pure feminist and showfag pandering.
They can't handle jon-fu to die, it was so rough last time, I mean, didn't you see all the youtube reaction videos? :((((
>>71091728
Not really. This is actually a common occurrence for people with pets who live alone and die.
>>71093661
He was the joker of GoT
>>71092154
nah, they'd eat his face in a heartbeat if he died, but they wouldn't kill him.
If they were hungry enough to kill one of their pack members they'd kill one of the weaker dogs not the pack leader
>>71089594
>namesake
>Ramsay Snow, Roose Bolton
they don't even share surnames lmao
>>71089445
in the books at least, he used to capture peasant women and let them run away and then hunt them down with dogs and name those dogs after girls he'd raped and flayed
He's not a nice chap and there's a reason everybody living near the Dreadfort (lol nice name Boltons, seriously?) is scared shitless and it's only partly because Roose was a creepy fuck and their house has a long history of flaying people and generally being comic book villains (but Robb can totally trust them cause they're his bannermen :))
>>71091511
Fuck... what could have been
>>71089445
Fucker was so hilariously incompetent at everything that wasn't torture
He shouldn't have lasted a fifth as long as he did, but I suppose the twenty good men situation increased his lifespan a little
>>71090361
leave you fucking faggot redditor leave
I was re-watching the episode and saw a huge plothole.
When Ramsay first meets Sansa, Jon, Bear Loli and Davos, he has Karstark throw the wolf head, Sansa tells him he'll die tomorrow and then storms off. Only AFTER Sansa left does he bring up how he hasn't fed his dogs in seven days. She wasn't around to listen, and it's a really big logic stretch to assume they told her afterwards. Yet at the end of the episode she puts him in the kennel and knows the dogs will eat him because "you haven't fed them in seven days, you said so yourself".
How would she know? Or is it just DABID?
>>71095681
The letter ramsay sends to Jhon confirms the hounds haven't been feed.
>>71089827
Heres your (You)
>>71089667
interesting and memorable character? he was a complete mary sue that basically did whatever was needed for the plot to advance. he was a terribly characterised villain.
>let's make a villain
>uh make him THE BEST at everything ever and make him very smug so people hate him
>then have him kill off/torture liked characters
>genius
please, Tywin and Roose were fantastic villains, Ramsay was fucking edgy garbage
Reminding that Ramsey-Sansa is not canon.
He married Jeyne poole
>>71096307
Tyson wasn't a villain
Name one thing
>>71096384
He was ruthless and cared about nothing more than his family name, to the point of gladly wanting to kill his own son. I love Tywin and how pragmatical he is but he was a villain.
>>71093021
>>71089797
>>71092177
Here's the thing, yes marital rape is still rape. She didn't consent, he forced it into her, so technically he did rape her.
However, still, not agreeing to sex on your wedding night is an incredibly cunty thing to do. Like, your husband just spend thousands on you, bought you a ring, and dedicated his whole life to you. You'd have to be the worst wife in the world to say "nah" to sex on that special night, unless you had a medical reason. I mean, sure, you have the right to say no, but it makes you a cunt. Why the fuck did you get married if you won't even give him this one little thing while he dedicates his whole life to you?
Not referring to Sansa or Ramsay cause Ramsay was a maniac, just speaking in general. Yes, a husband who forcibly has nonconsensual sex with his wife is a rapist, but a wife that denies sex to her husband ESPECIALLY ON THEIR FUCKING WEDDING NIGHT is a complete cunt and a bitch.
>>71089445
Having his little baby brother be eaten by his dogs was a bit mean.
>>71096790
>women kill babies they don't want all the time
>"IT'S MY CHOICE, HOW DARE YOU FORCE ME TO BE A MOTHER YOU PATRIARCHAL MISOGYNIST PIG"
>ramsey disposes of child who would have been a legitimate threat to his rule and national stability, he's a monster.
>>71096875
It is not that he secured his rule, it is the way he did it. You edgy faggot.
>>71096740
No matter how you look it, its not in anyway or form rape. They were married, so thats it, not rape.
ITT: semantic argument over the legal concept of rape and the actual act of rape
yes it legally wasn't rape in the context of the show you idiots, but it actually was rape. Who gives a shit about the contextual legality, are you now Westerosi lawyers?
>>71097032
>yes it legally wasn't rape in the context of the show you idiots, but it actually wasnt rape. Who gives a shit about the contextual legality, are you now Westerosi lawyers?
just fixed that for you cuckoldino. No matter how you look at it, it wasnt rape, not in their world and not in ours.
>>71089445
They were married, so it wasnt rape, cuckoldino. And no, he wasnt that bad, just incompetent.
>>71089537
Sansa didn't want it, and yet he still have it to her.
That's rape.
>>71090278
what other horrible stuff did he do?
>>71097032
I agree it actually was rape.
But I think a wife withholding sex and using sex as a weapon against her husband is a form of emotional abuse worse than rape.
Yes, forcing yourself into your wife is rape. But your wife withholding sex, especially on your wedding night, for anything other than medical reasons, makes her a massive cunt and a bitch.
>>71097539
>But I think a wife withholding sex and using sex as a weapon against her husband is a form of emotional abuse worse than rape.
So if I offered you the choice of not having sex for a year or being held down and duked in the ass by a brolic black, which would you choose?
>>71089445
He feeds a woman and her infant to dogs you fucking mongoloid
>>71098188
>So if I offered you the choice of not having sex for a year or being held down and duked in the ass by a brolic black, which would you choose?
False equivalence. When you agree to marry a husband, you're basically agreeing to give him your pussy in exchange for his wealth, house, protection, title, etc. If he gives you all that and you still deny him pussy, its equivalent to theft and emotional or mental abuse. Its worse than raped.
If I had to choose between not having sex for a year and having forced sex with someone I was married to, I'd choose the latter because I wouldn't marry anyone I didn't want to have sex with in the first place.
how was it rape, she agreed to get married and its not like she was beaten into submission to have sex she just didn't enjoy it....by that definition if i was to go gay for pay and marry a sugar daddy and hate my life every time its sexy time does that mean im being raped?
>>71098363
again, you're mixing the Westerosi legal definition of rape and actual rape.
She didn't love Ramsey and being a sadistic fuck he was obviously doing some rough shit with her that she didn't like. Add to the fact that she didn't want to have sex with this edgemonster, and the sex obviously wasn't enjoyable for her on any level. It's not a false equivalency.
>>71090278
I assumed that he did to Sansa whatever he did to Jeyne in the books. Sansa mentioned that he kept her face pretty but didn't spare the rest of her body, so I doubt that rough sex was all she got
What happened to Karstark? Fucked off to rape little boys?
>>71098648
Well what he did to jeyne in the books?
>>71098537
>She didn't love Ramsey and being a sadistic fuck he was obviously doing some rough shit with her that she didn't like
then why did she agree to marry him? Baelish said she could bail out, but she still agreed to marry him. Classical bitch, wants all the benefits of marriage but doesn't want to put out.
>>71092316
top fucking kek my dude
>>71089689
>>71089733
>>71090075
>he dindu nuffin
>>71099487
He didnt rape her. Thats impossible, because they were married. Also not a nigger.
>>71089445
He also liked to rape and murder peasants, so peasants might care about whether he's LP or not.
>>71089445
>regularly hunts and rapes women for fun. If they give him good sport, he kills them before flaying them, if not, he plays them alive
>killed Ser Rodrick
>forcefully married Lady Hornwood, raped her a bunch, then locked her up and had her starve to death
>came up with the idea of killing those two Millers boys then carried out the act himself
>burned everyone at Winterfell alive and took the women there for raping and flaying later
>tortures Theon far worse, to the point where he has no teeth, 7 fingers, barely any toes, is completely emaciated, has white hair, and looks like he's in his 60's
>marries 13 year old Jeyne Poole, rapes and tortures her nightly, then implied to have her fuck his dogs
Book Ramsay is absolutely evil.
Show Ramsay is just a little faggot desu.
love ramsay, great villain, gave no fucks.
>LOOOSE
>>71089445
Everything he did was over kill outlined by >>71089594
He did nothing right.
>>71099162
Only explicit thing besides mentions of her having scars and bruises is that Ramsay made Theon eat her out before he did other stuff to them. It's also implied he had his dogs rape her at some point.
>>71089445
1. he didn't rape Sansa
2. Reek deserved it
And either way, it was pretty obvious that he comfortably held the north, and no one cared that the Boltons were now in charge except Wildlings and Jhon.
>>71099745
How did his hair turn white?
>>71089445
Boltons skin people.
That's gross.
>>71099745
He cant rape them if theyre married. 3/5 post though.
>>71099917
They weren't married to him out of their will, they were literally forced.
>>71099833
Noice. Thanks.
>>71099967
Marriage is marriage, doesnt matter. Still not rape.
>>71099901
From constant stress, abuse, and never being allowed to eat.
>>71100002
>tying someone up, getting married without their consent, and raping them isn't rape
Oh /tv/
>>71099833
>he did other stuff to them
he did things to her
>>71099901
Martin is a hack
>>71089445
lets forget that he threw a woman and her child to the hounds
>>71100050
Theon recalls the night with "the terrible things he made us do" or some shit. Ramsay totally used Reek as a cum dump at some point.
>>71089445
What was Ramsey' endgame?
What was he going to do after killing Jon and his army?
Winterfell isn't even very comfy. It's not like in Kingslanding where you can sit back, let the small council rule while you enjoy alcohol and whores. It's too cold to get it up
Why did Ramsay kill the giant instead of Jon when he had the chance to kill either?
>>71100229
because he was a big guy
>>71100068
It actually is possible for hair to lose pigment under extreme stress and malnutrition.
>>71089445
pretty tame as far as medieval times are concerned
>>71100229
He might be the last giant in the world. At least we don't know any other ones.
Ramsey, in his final moments before being defeated, wrote history by erasing giants from the world.
Jon Snuw could just be brought back to life anyway
"This guy has a reputation for flaying people alive, feeds people to wolves, killed his own father, killed his baby brother and mother in law, murdered Rickon Stark in front of 9000 witnesses, got his position in a way that everyone knows involved betraying the Starks and breaking guest right, and is just generally well-renowned as a gigantic asshole. Let's fight and die for him" - t. Karstark
>>71089445
OP has the right of it, Sansa got her whole family killed and in turn managed to kill thousands of Wildlings and a giant who was a endangered species now extinct. Her revenge for rape was to get someone eaten alive by dogs.
Sansa deserved more then rape, she is worse then Ramsey ever was.
>>71096875
yeah but he wasn't responsible for raising the kid
>and cutting off Reek's dick (who deserved it for killing those two children tbqh)
Do people honestly think that murdering two kids justifies months and months of torture through starvation, dehydration, squeezing a foot so tightly that blood comes out, using a knife to carve the flesh from a finger, cutting someone's dick/balls off, etc.?
>>71090258
This.
he probably killed more of his own men with his arrow-rain than wildlings.
>>71100534
Deranged Starkfags do.
It's even more jarring when bookfags say it's justified because "muh two boys" when Ramsay is the one who actually comes up with the idea and kills them himself in the books.
>>71091728
>Dogs are extremely loyal and wouldn't attack their master
you haven't fed them for seven days, you said so yourself.
>>71094927
That's not how dogs work. Certain dog breeds are extremely aggressive. Basically not even used as pets because they're too much to handle. They would turn on him in an instant if he can't fight back.
