So can we agree both of their master plains were based on luck and script?
Lex kept refining his original plan based on opportunity. Zemo's made no sense whatsoever...how did he know (for instance) Cap would automatically side with Bucky? That he would engage in a showdown with Stark? That Bucky would tell him about the other Winter Soldiers? Etc.
I liked both villains. And both films.
>>69994009
shut the fuck up dccuck
>>69994034
Shut up Marvel drine hes right
was getting caught part of either of their plans
>>69994009
Only an idiotic DCuck couldnt understand a movie as simple as Civil War. Zemo clearly states that he studied the avengers and their habits likes and dislikes in order to ascertain their strengths, weakness and ideals.
>>69994009
Zemo basically says he was obsessed with Cap and the rest of them. He did his homework and wanted to bring them down.
>>69993653
Zemo's plan was based on luck, and he failed quite a few times, and in the end he did fail.
All he wanted was the tape of Bucky killing Tony's parents.
>>69994027
LIAR!1!!
GET OFF MY /tv/!1!!
Civil War and BvS were actually both great films. Marvel and DC both produce quality entertainment.
>>69994242
DELETE THIS
>>69994079
>Zemo clearly states that he studied the avengers and their habits likes and dislikes in order to ascertain their strengths, weakness and ideals.
Only a Marveldrone wouldn't notice that shit-tier, Deux Ex Machina justification...
>>69994286
>planning before doing something is Deus Ex Machina
>>69994009
He knew Cap would side with Bucky because even in TWS did.
He didn't plan for Tony and Steve to fight before he showed them the tape.
>>69994382
So, he knew Caps was queer for Bucky?
I can believe that.
>>69994181
I think it was stupid for him to kill off the other super soldiers and not waking them up to fight before showing tony the movie.
>>69994549
They were only bait.
He didn't care about them.
He was going to pit the two against each other and then kill himself.
>>69994568
>He was going to pit the two against each other and then kill himself.
Fucking lame.
Why not blow up Caps girlfriend, kill Bucky, then hang back and masturbate while he's falling to pieces?
>>69994638
Epic.
>>69993653
Lex = shit tier
Zemo = win tier
>>69993653
What the fuck was Lex's plan again? Zemo literally wanted to find a physical evidence Steve Rogers' best friend killed Tony Stark's parents and show it Tony Stark. He claims to have found this out by going through all the SHIELD/HYDRA files leaked online Snowden style at the end of Winter Soldier.
Lex Luthor wanted Superman and Batman to fight each other, and somehow found out who both of them were through unexplained means, but also wanted to make a Kryptonian clone weapon? And import a weapon that could kill Superman? And kill a US senator? What I mean to say is the overall goal was a lot less clear.
>>69994638
Because that would turn them into martyrs.
>>69994638
He didn't think anyone normal could kill them. In fact, that seems to be the only major leap in logic in his plan: he assumed no one else would be able to kill Cap, Bucky or Tony. Because this whole thing just falls apart if any of them died.
>>69994705
And...here we go again.
I gotta get to bed. Here's some copypasta as a midnight snack. Discuss:
The fucking thing the autists can't grasp (being autists) is that Luthor's approach changed SEVERAL times during the movie, as circumstances changed:
1. Work with Holly Hunter's Senator Finch to criminalize and control metahumans (a la Watchmen, The Incredibles). Collect data on Metas. Create incidents embarrassing Superman (like the African crisis, which spiraled out of control after Supes left).
BUT THEN...
2. Big Kryptonite chunk found. Hire thugs to bring chunk into country, at same time, court Finch to legally authorize this importation, which would grant him tacit Federal approval of his anti-metahuman schemes
BUT THEN...
3. Finch tells him to fuck off. At same time, he does obtain access to Zod's body and the Krypton scoutship. Continue illegal scheme to import Kryptonite, start working on a way to trick his way into the scoutship with Zod's fingerprints.
BUT THEN...
4. Batman swipes his Kryptonite. Accesses scoutship, starts researching Krypton, decides to create Doomsday. Blow up US Congress, killing Finch (Luthor fucking HATES being thwarted) and further humiliating Supes. Kidnaps Martha Kent, blackmails Supes into fighting Bats (who he knows has a Kryptonite advantage) while Doomsday preps. No matter who wins, Doomsday kills the victor.
BUT THEN...
5. Last minute change of heart spares Supes, who teams with Bats and WW to defeat Doomsday at the cost of Supes life. Now in deep shit, Luthor (deleted scene, but presumably canon) contacts Darkseid before his capture. Taunts Bats from prison cell that DS is coming.
>>69993653
I didn't see BvS yet but Zemo's plan was just to show Tony a VHS tape. That Hydra guy didn't give up the location, so Zemo had to activate Bucky to get the tape. It's not like the opening scene or airport fight were part of Zemo's scheme.
>>69994549
Zemo is racist against enhanced people.SHIT SORRY, I MEAN PEOPLE OF ENHANCEMENT.
>>69994146
>Zemo basically says he was obsessed with Cap
If he was mad at the Avenegrs as a Whole, then why cap?
>>69994950
That's Zemo's thing.
He's a rusemaster, and he's obsessed with Cap, almost reaching homosexuality.
>>69993653
You kids need to be spoonfed yet again, huh?
http://www.manofsteelanswers.com/lex-luthor-explained/
>As long as you accept the underlying motivation and existential crisis (something that tech billionaires are strangely prone to), you can follow the logic and reasons behind Lex’s actions and see the careful planning and execution required. You can see how he had fall backs, contingencies, and ways out. You can see how he course corrects and keeps to his ultimate motive even as circumstances change. He isn’t a random force of chaos, except to the extent that he accepts Doomsday as the final say on power on Earth (and that’s only an internal interpretation; add what he learns about Darkseid and beyond and his reasons likely come into focus even more).
>>69995062
>manofsteelanswers.com
>>69994950
You need to crack the foundation.
>>69995012
>That's Zemo's thing.
>He's a rusemaster, and he's obsessed with Cap, almost reaching homosexuality.
In both cartoon they have more history. It fee llike he hate cap the same reason Lex hate supes in their movies.
>>69993653
>zemo makes 20 winter soldiers and kills them off just for a movie twist
>>69995750
Those winter soldiers were already there.
They were HYDRA's.
>>69993653
if Iron Man didn't just happen to find out where cap and bucky went, Zemos whole plan wouldnt have worked
>>69995849
That's why he told the breakfast lady to go into his room, so his scheme could be uncovered and Tony could work with Cap's team to come help them in Siberia.
>>69996410
this
>>69995849
did you even fucking pay attention during the movie?
>>69994009
he didnt need any of that
he was special ops, likely had some info of what the winter soldier was cos he was in 3rd world fucking yogslavia or something probably his organisation had ties with hydra some ways back
so he knew rumors or maybe solid info, we dont know how he got stared on the mission
he hted the avengers for ruining his city and killing family, he needed a way to bring them down
the winter soldier was publicly outed in TWS so he probably saw that on tv and remembered the old days when he was talking with some russian guys moving some boxes of guns when the guys told him how funny it was that they have brainwashed captain americas old partner, the famous boy wonder bucky barnes! and made him into a puppet assassin, that seems like it would be a funny story to tell
anyway zemo knows this, the files were leaked by widow and maybe he put two and two together and though wait shit there was a mission the same day starks dads died, what if it was bucky? he looked into it more and thought it could be
knowing he was caps friend he took a chance that it would cause a rift between them, but he needed a way to show stark the tapes first
he needed bucky in the lgiht so he could tell him the russian codes, the best wayto do that would be to follow cap and have him find him for me, he probably has been watchign the avengers heaps closey and he seems to be a master of disguises
cont.
>>69996707
do we know he hired rumlow? im not sure. i dont think it matters. i think it was just chance timing to be honest, he finally had the red book to control bucky now he needed to find him
suddenly theres a world peace thing and turns out publicly cap isnt attending, zemo probably already things HMM and decides this is the perfect time to bring bucky to the light so he pretends to be him and places a bomb, works as expected, everyone starts looking hard for bucky
zemo seems pretty intelligent so lets just say he had a hacked line into the german interpol and knew they were bringing in a guy to psycho analyze buck, this bit is weird i dont know why the guy wasnt security checked more but whatever, enjoy the plot hole, then he finds out where the tapes and secret base is from bucky and heads there
i think through all this he was cerainly ready to die, so he didnt care that they would probably find otu from bucky and maybe follow, the important part was he got the tape so he could show it to stark to really push them to the edge
the end
>>69994549
zemo hated the avengers because they caused the destruction of his family
theres no reason to think just cos he hates them he would love to be buddy buddy with some frozen mind controlled assassins that would only bring the world more destruction
if he has the same info as bucky on them, bucky says they are good enough to topple governments in a week
why woudl zemo want that, he just wants to fuck up the avengers
>>69993653
Lex's plan was like Andy Dufresne's. It relied on pressure and time.
Plan A failed when Clark didn't kill Bruce. Plan B failed when they both survived the fight. Plan C failed when both Clark and Doomsday died.
>>69994822
>He didn't think anyone normal could kill them. In fact, that seems to be the only major leap in logic in his plan: he assumed no one else would be able to kill Cap, Bucky or Tony. Because this whole thing just falls apart if any of them died.
That why he created Doomsday as a backup plan
>>69994638
that wouldnt destroy the avengers you dipshit
they would literaly do like their name says, avenger cap, then continue on with probably more fervor than before
im sorry but are you literally a dummy?
>>69995849
Zemo's plan was to get the tape and have Tony see it, that's it. He didn't need them to find him in siberia
>>69994352
Him knowing exactly how they would react as if he was some kind of god is Deus Ex Machina.
>>69993653
What was Lex's plan again? I mean he wanted to destroy Superman out of butthurt but then made Doomsday because having an uncontrollable monster is better than the man of murder.
Zemo's family got killed due to actions of the Avengers. So he wanted them to fall apart and orchestrated several incidents to cause a rift in the team.
>>69996894
what do you mean knowing exactly how?
he knew stuff from TWS movie, cap tried hard to help buck, he has been studying them so he probably knows cap has been looking for someone, again probably buck, because zemo probably knows TWS is bucky cos hydra buddy affiliation from his special op days..
cap goes through all this trouble you think he wouldnt try help and save buck instead of bringing him in or killing him? his best childhood friend that he has laready almost died for?
and is it so complicated to assume that stark would flip out if he knew that cap, who he 'thought was his best friend' actually knew that his ex-best friend KILLED his parents, BRUTALLY?
are you also a dummy?
>baron zemo was actually just "some guy" zemo
oh okay
>>69994702
But he is right.
Zemo was luck.
Lex adapted to changes and changed his plan accordingly
>>69994874
>Taunts Bats from prison cell that DS is coming.
>ding ding ding ding
>ding ding ding ding
>ding ding ding dingAlso this pasta is perfect.
>>69996938
Lex saw Superman as a means of providing something beyond what his wealth and philanthropy alone could give him. Like a spoiled child, he saw how the world reacted to Superman's existence and wanted that level of fame for himself.
Superman was a controversial, polarizing figure since the Kryptonian invasion, but he was universally recognized as playing the pivotal role in stopping them, hence the monument. The short route to a similar level of adulation would be to save the world from a new "alien menace," even if it's one you have to create yourself, and even if you have to defeat it by proxy - the metahuman files.
He's sort of like Syndrome.
>>69996997
The thing is that his entire plan falls apart if just one thing goes wrong.
But he is a rusemaster, so nothing would ever go worng for him.
And the only reason Buck and Cap got to Siberia was because of sheer luck. I don't know why Tony didn't blowed up one of the wings of the Avenger ship when he had the chance, or asked Vision to do that.
People do realize that the idea of blaming the Avengers for any of the deadly events they were involved in is complete bullshit that is only a thing because the writers weren't smart enough to come up with something to replace the Mutant Registration Act in Civil War, right? No one with a functioning brain cell would actually hold the Avengers responsible for any of that shit.
Tony Stark specifically for the creation of Ultron, yes. But not the Avengers.
Stop acting like it's a credible idea
>>69997516
Well, Sockface was an insane person, so I could see him blaming the Avengers. That said, Zemo was a total flatline, and I can't see how anyone liked him.
He was in what, like 4 scenes?
That said, the idea was retarded.
>>69997611
I think it's the water in Sakovia. The Twins had the same stupid concept of revenge in Age of Ultron. I RECOGNIZE THIS PERSON HAS IN SOME WAY BEING CONNECTED TO SOMETHING BAD THAT HAPPENED TO ME; NOW I WILL KILL THEM.
>>69997516
I guess that Wanda wasn't responsible of killing all those nigglets.
>>69997874
Well, the Avengers were directly connected to that incident so Zemo is right.
He was still retarded for not taking his family to safety though.
>>69997892
No. She is responsible for the bomb NOT killing everyone in the market.
That's the faulty, bullshit logic I'm talking about. It's not like if Wanda hadn't been there, no one would have died.
This airbag broke my nose!
>This airbag stopped you from breaking your face on the dashboard
>>69997966
Connected to isn't the same as responsible for.
>>69997892
She did literally nothing wrong.
>>69998066
>>69997892
She was.
And it wasn't an accident.
Wanda ''Hotel Rwanda'' Maximoff will offer no mercy to those filthy apes.
>>69997990
But she is responsible for the bomb killing "people" in that building.
She could have trowed him in any other direction but she can't control her powers and she fucked up because of that.
>>69998022
Tony and Bruce were responsible for Ultron.
>>69998167
I can live with this.
>>69998167
Wanda "Hotel Rwanda" Maximoff
Wanda "Bomb Wakanda" Maximoff
Wanda "Run over Niggers with my Honda" Maximoff
Wanda "This is my planet, Blacks get off" Maximoff
Wanda "Coloreds In The Trough" Maximoff
Wanda "Uganda Blackout" Maximoff
Wanda "Black Mamba, White Condom" Maximoff
Wanda "Killer Kwanzaa" Maximoff
Wanda "BBC Stroganoff" Maximoff
Wanda "Fear Blacks Before All Others" Maximoff
Wanda "Rated R-Wanda" Maximoff
Wanda "Niggas Sod Offia" Maximoff
Wanda "No fan of the chocolate" Maximoff
Wanda "Black getting no Slack" Maximoff
Wanda "The Spook Nuke" Maximoff
Wanda "Taking the K out of Wakanda" Maximoff
>>69998214
Reading comprehension.
If not for her, way more people would have died.
>>69998214
>Tony and Bruce were responsible for Ultron.
He didn't target Tony - he targeted the Avengers, with heavy emphasis on Cap. And he completely ignored Bruce's existence.
>>69993653
I enjoyed both movies (a little bit more BvS , but I'm a superman fan, so I'm biased) . Anyway, this is what I didn't like about these 2 guys master plans. With Lex what bothered me was that even when we don't know which version of Sups we are dealing with (you know.. each writer has his own version of superman in the comics, the very first couldn't even fly he just jumped very high, and there are other version where he can literally move an entire planet) so we let that aspect go, but still the movie version is pretty much capable of detecting Lois Lane heartbeat/breathing from pretty far away, so how come he didn't used his super hearing to detect where Martha was being held hostage went there rekt those guys at the speed of light/sound (whatever) , came back obliterate (or subdue) Luthor and that was it , how would luthor know how far S could listen and/or how fast sups was?.
On the other side , Zemo's plan was a bit more solid, my only problem with it was (is) , that if he really wanted to create chaos among the avengers/tony/steve , why didn't he make that video of TWS killing in cold blood iron man parents , public? He could've made dozens of copies and sent them out to every media outlet, I mean he already impersonated bucky as a terrorist, so why not make the captain look even worse when he sided with this murderous assassin (because somehow the video where it's made clear that it was never TWS the one that bombed the UN , is gonna be made public to clear his name) , if he released the other video there's no way the avengers could recover from that , people would never look at the captain the same way, not even if tony stark held a press conference saying that he forgave bucky and that it wasn't him.. It would be too late, people wouldn't trust in the capn and/or the avengers anymore.
>>69997058
>zemo
>luck
>not adapting to changes
>>69998386
I got that.
But because of her a lot of people died.
>I have Hepatitis C but at least I don't have pancreatic cancer.
>>69998479
Yes, and even then no one knows about Ultron being made by Stark.
But Zemo is a rusemaster he surely knows everything.
Here's the problem I have with Zemo's plan:
Did he, working on his own, manage to decrypt the whole of SHIELD's/Hydra's leaked files?
If so, how does he know that Tony or someone else hasn't already done the same?
If not, how does he know what info is waiting at the Winter Soldier base?
Lastly, how can he know that Steve hasn't already shared what he knows with Tony?
>>69998670
Your metaphor is wrong.
>The chemotherapy caused non-fatal liver damage and my hair fell out, but I didn't die of cancer.
It's vital to address the damage that would have been done (dying/massive casualties) if not for the acting agent (chemotherapy/Wanda).
>>69998670
The point I'm making is that Zemo isn't targeting Tony or Bruce for creating Ultron; he's not targeting Wanda for working with Ultron. He targeted the Avengers as a whole, focusing especially on Cap, while also completely ignoring one of the people most responsible for Ultron. It's just shitty writing.
>>69999052
>It's just shitty writing.
Oh, yes it is.
Just like Bucky and Cap getting to Siberia because of plot convenience.
>>69998931
It's also vital to adress the damage that was done.
And you will still die of cancer with chemo.
Even then, niglets are not people so I don't really know of what damage I am talking about.
>>69999378
I wouldn't have used cancer as a metaphor myself. I was just adapting yours. Generally, when talking about the bad writing in Civil War, I compare it to attacking firemen for water damage, ignoring the fact that they stopped your house from burning to the ground.
>>69999693
Did the firemen also drowned niglets in a hotel just right by my house?
>>69999908
>>69994009
>Zemo's made no sense whatsoever
Zemo literally spoonfed each and every steps (of which there are like two: get the tape from bunker and show it to Avengers creating a schism) of his plan on-screen in literally every scene
>>70000163
It's confirmed that most nig nogs don't know how to swim.
>>70000432
How does he know that what's there is going to create a schism?
>>70000432
That's not what he was saying though.
>>70000499
Because muh Bucky.
Also, the only reason why Bucky didn't got killed at the end was because Tony didn't wanted to kill Caps, he even had the perfect time to do it.
Something that really bothers me is the Winter Soldier base being completely unmanned. Did I miss how that was explained?
>>70000502
he was saying it made no sense
it did, he just was not listening
>>70000499
because he knew from Hydra books that Bucky is Cap's bestest husbando
>>70000746
>because he knew from Hydra books that Bucky is Cap's bestest husbando
But that still doesn't mean Bucky had anything to do with Tony's parents.
>>70000801
what part of "i autistically spent a year decrypting Hydra books" you didn't understand?
He encountered a a winter soldier operation log dated 19 december 1990-something which conveniently is the date of death of the person who was directly involved in super-serum project
>>69998850
How did he manage to so easily disguise himself as Bucky when he bombed the building to frame him.
How did he have the resources to know who would have interrogated Bucky and where he would have been taken after caught.
Also how did he time the interrogation perfectly with the EMP?
What would he have done if Bucky was never caught or was killed in the process?
So he was decoding Hydra stuff on his own time, before Ultron, for whatever reason? Then, he researched the Avengers (because bad writing) and when he saw the date Tony's parent's died, he randomly remembered that something Hyrda-y happened on the same date and decided they MUST be related. And embarked on an insane, murderous plan to find evidence he didn't know existed?
>>70000902
Yes. He alone out of the hundreds of thousands of people who would be looking into those encrypted files found that and acted on it, working alone and with limited resources.
Tony Stark could probably break that encryption in a caveWITH A BUNCH OF SCRAPS,but for the convenience of the plot, he doesn't.
Steve, who now fully understands Tony's brilliance and instability, and already knowing of Hydra's involvement and the very real possibility that Bucky would have been involved too, chooses not share any of this information with the very teammate he took to task over trust issues in AoU, opening Steve up to an ongoing risk of Tony coming into this knowledge independently, again for the convenience of the plot.
>>70000902
Who happened to be Stark's parents? Yeah right, that was shitty writing.
>>70001156
you are watching a movie where robot with a chaos emerald lodged in his forehead pines over a lady that can manipulate matter with her mind
you forfeited your right to scream: "this cannot be!" when you pressed "play"/bought the ticket
>>70001189
> shitty writing
it's called movie and comic book canon fact that was established several decades ago
>>70001114
>for whatever reason
he literally explained the reason -- he wanted to get back at Avenger using whatever he can find
> when he saw the date Tony's parent's died
Howard Stark is not just a random person
He is Shield founder but more importantly he was working on super-serum project of which Cap and Bucky are both products of
If you are looking into Winter Soldier files, you are also looking at people who were directly involved with it and who mysteriously died
>>70001433
There is a difference between things that are fantastical and unreal (super powers) and things being just stupid. It's shitty shit, lazy writing.
I call it the Superman Line. I'll accept that an alien gains super abilities from absorbing the sun's radiation. Flying backwards around a planet to reverse its rotation turning back time, instead of just killing everyone on the planet is just stupid, shitty writing.
>>70001536
This. You can only suspend your belief so much, or accept so much bullshit before it's shit.
>>70001514
Even if he was researching Hydra to try to find something there that would allow him to attack people it makes no sense for him to attack, he was still on a mission to gather proof he didn't know existed.
>>70001586
>>70001433
>you forfeited your right to scream: "this cannot be!" when you pressed "play"/bought the ticket
No, I most certainly did not. Scifi and fantasy elements do not, and should not, serve as an indication of brainless entertainment. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed this movie for what it was. What I'm doing here is holding up a mirror so that the people that defend such sloppy, cynical writing can get a real good look at themselves.
We deserve better.
>>70001536
your line in the sand between believable and bullshit as applied to this movie is deliberate as fuck and doesn't make any sense
you believe people becoming giants (which doesn't happen) but refuse to believe someone can decrypt codes (which does happen)
And even believability is even beside the point
The point is, Zemo literally explained entirety of his small and simple plan directly on-screen and yet people still have trouble getting it
This isn't Primer, this is literally comic books
>>70001536
As much as I love those old movies, that scene was just so unforgivably bad.
>>69997874
It honestly can be a cultural thing. Sokovia seems like degenerate far east europe right, where life is worth a fraction of what it is worth in real developed countries. Things like taking murderous revenge on another because they did kill the only thing you love in the shitty world they live in is pretty culturally normal imo.
>>70001648
he knew about Winter Soldier, Hydra assassin has completed a mission on certain date
Winter Soldier is personally connected to Cap
he knew that Howard Stark dies on a certain date
Howard Stark is obviously connected to Tony Stark
These are two people he actively wants to ruin
This isn't rocket science
>>70001717
I have no trouble believing he decrypted the Hydra files. There's nothing wrong with that.
It's the fact that he embarked on an overly elaborate, highly flawed plan in order to get ahold of something HE DIDN'T KNOW EXISTED. He didn't know there was random video footage of Bucky killing Tony's parents. It was incredibly stupid that video existed in the first place.
>>70001717
>you believe people becoming giants (which doesn't happen) but refuse to believe someone can decrypt codes (which does happen)
Yeah, it happens, which is why it's so unbelievable that in the time between the Widow leaking all the files and CW, nobody else had broken the encryption.
To be quite honest, the entire movie would have played out better if it had begun with Tony receiving an email with the files that Zemo had decrypted and showed Tony running a query on his own database to find he'd been sitting on the information without even knowing it. Then you can have him confront Steve and Steve could at that point at least *try* to come off like he hadn't been withholding info from Tony.
That sets up a rift between them from the word go, and the rest of the film could have been a legitimate Civil War, with the two opposing teams vying with each other to be the first to bring Barnes in.
>>69993653
Lex's plan was... I don't even know, get batman and superman to fight just for a laugh? Just to harass superman? By manipulating Batman in an extremely obvious way? And then release a monster he can't control?
>>70001802
But they aren't taking murderous revenge on someone who killed the only thing they loved. They're taking murderous revenge on a person associated with the actions of a completely different person who killed the only thing they loved.
>>70001861
> overly elaborate
> elaborate
his plan always consisted of two steps:
- get to bunker looking for shit
- use whatever he can dig up there to create a rift between avengers
Bucky impersonation and blowing up UN HQ was a backup plan because plan A with Hydra officer failed which he literally explained on-screen, so he was forced to do it through Bucky
All he had at the start was the date, which was ALL he was repeating like a moron for much of his first scenes
It all unraveled from there
>>70001891
I believe his goal was to kill Superman. I don't think he expected Batman to be able to kill him; Bats was just to keep him busy while Doomsday finished cooking. And it all has something to do with Luthor knowing Darksied was coming.
>>69994009
>how did he know (for instance) Cap would automatically side with Bucky?
Literally his best friend. They grew up together and fought in WW2.
>That he would engage in a showdown with Stark?
Steve would never give up Bucky. Not even in front of Stark. The accords mainly magnified the divide
>That Bucky would tell him about the other Winter Soldiers? Etc.
That was Buckys mission that night. Bucky thought Zemo wanted the soldies, when the only thing Zemo wanted was the tape
>>70001891
The plan was to get Supes to murder the Batman, then Lex could send Supes off to some bogus, far-flung locale to get her, Lex's guys burn her and take off to find Lois to do the same. Lex sets Doomsday to be released next time someone enters the genesis chamber and goes into hiding.
Now Superman comes back to discover Lex gone from the ship and gets a face full of Doomsday. During the ensuing chaos, Lex's guys burn Lois, too, and Lex contacts the war room for their aid in assembling the metahumans he's been keeping files on "for just such an occasion." These metahumans, armed with the weaponry Bruce designed but "tragically" died before getting a chance to use, go out to confront the "alien menace" - whichever of the two wins the fight, either Doomsday or a Superman who's just murdered a fellow vigilante.
Meet Lex Luthor - found of the Justice League™. He even had logos drawn up for them for when he got a chance to commercially "brand" them at some point down the road.
As soon as he picked up the phone and Bruce was on the other end, he knew he was fucked and just hit the "oh shit!" button.
>>69994786
This.
Zemo achieved his aim. He made Cap into a disgrace. And Tony is now a broken man.
In contrast Lex made Supes a martyr. Lex fucked up
>>70001988
His plan had WAY more than two steps.
1. interrogate shut in
wait, start over, that didnt work.
1. locate all cameras in the vicinity of a major target - preferrably associated with the avengers - and determine their footage quality and angle of view
2. get a disguise
3. build a bomb.
4. find out who would be interrogating bucky
5. dress up as bucky and set off bomb, making sure to be caught on camera, but not to be caught by anyone
6. hack into interrogator's accounts and find his itinerary
7. kill interrogator and assume his identity
8. gain access to one of the most secure facilities in the world using fake IDs (hoping no one actually has a fucking reference picture or personal knowledge of the actual interrogator) WITH an emp
9. use the notebook to reprogram bucky before he can escape and kill you - or anyone else stops you
10. escape ONE OF THE MOST SECURE FACILITIES ON THE PLANET
11. call the hotel so the dead body is found, hoping tony stark can find out where the hell youre going
12. get your ass to the middle of nowhere in siberia
13. kill super soldiers just because
14. obtain a video tape you didnt know existed (which shouldnt have existed in the first place)
15. don't get killed before your big reveal
16. ???
17. suicide
>>70002255
>get a disguise
>build a bomb
> dress up
He also had to eat, shit and probably smoke a few cigs in the meantime
Are you gonna included such menial (for special forces dude) tasks as parts of the plan as well?
> use the notebook to reprogram bucky
he already had notebook and codes in it to activate WS from even before hydra interrogation, it was always an option but he said out loud that he didn't want to do it
> escape ONE OF THE MOST SECURE FACILITIES ON THE PLANET
he literally has a super-soldier at his command at this point, in a facility has lost most of it's systems and there are bunch of random people runing and screaming, while security is kinda busy ling on the floor unconscious
Or are you going to count each of the foot steps he took as he was casually strolling down from Shield HQ among the crowd as plan as well?
> hoping tony stark can find out where the hell youre going
Tony Stark and fuck even Cap & bucky following him ot the bunker is irrelevant
He got to the place and found the tape, that's mission accomplished
but there these three showed up and why wait and show it to them right then and there
>>69997058
How the fuck would you know if Zemo didn't adapt his plans to the situations given?
Perhaps he was counting on Bucky to get away back in Berlin and draw both Steve and Tony to Siberia that way.
Perhaps he was counting on Buck to stay brainwashed so he would readily fight Iron Man after he saw the tape.
Hell, maybe he wasn't even counting on Tony to show up in Siberia and would have just made off with the tape to give it to him on another occasion, if he didn't show.
There's really nothing about his plan that was so set in iron that it would have fallen apart if things didn't happen exactly the way they did in the movie.
Plus at least he never started a chain reaction where he had no idea what the hell the outcome could be, like when Lex created Doomsday.
Also lets not forget who the real mastermind of the movie is here. Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross. That motherfucker would have sent Lex Luthor a jar of his piss and told him it was grandma's peach tea.
>>70002533
>how was the plan more than two steps?
>ignores how the plan had way more than two steps and was actually very complicated and relied on the ineptitude of any and all military personelle throughout
they made a social network sequel?
>>70002696
>>70002089
>no plan
Did you expect him to say anything if there was the slightest chance anyone could have stopped it? They *did* stop it, but not because he stupidly tipped his hand.
This villain was so smart that even his monologues were deception.
The difference is that Daniel Bruhl is a thespian that knows what the word "subtle performance" means.
Meanwhile Jesse Eisenberg is a walking, spastic meme.
>>70002533
>>70002696
how did he know tony would be able to find siberia from sam and come by himself, that is his part of his plan.
because why else would he wait in the bunker behind a metal door?
>>70003087
He didn't. It was just an option.
His goal was to kill the other winter soldiers and acquire the tapes. These were the things he had to accomplish in Siberia. Tony showing up in Siberia was something he hoped would happen, given the clues he left behind, but his plan didn't hinge on it.
Showing him the tape later would have had the same effect.
>>70002120
zemo's plan sucked so much that it only took 1 letter from steve to tony for them to make up. another thing is tony wasn't even trying to kill bucky, he had multiple chances to shoot bucky on the ground and didn't.
>>70003204
If Tony hadn't shown up, his plan would have failed.
>>70003354
No, it wouldn't.
>>70003252
And MARTHA stoppped them from fighting
>>70003204
what if other heroes came along though, there wouldn't have been a fight, he had to rely on tony coming by himself for him to get his desired outcome.
his plan also hinged on bucky not getting caught after he brok e out of prison somehow.
his plan also hinged on bucky only mentioning siberia and not the mission report which would if steve knew about, he would have talked to tony about it and zemo's plan wouldn't work.
>>69997516
Imagine if there was a team of nuclear scientist living next door to you. And one of them starts messing around with Thorium in his garage because he wants to "make the world a better place", and he does so without alerting any of the relevant authorities and without the go-ahead from any elected representatives. And as a result the experiment goes horribly wrong and kills your wife and ruins your house. And instead of the other nuclear scientists turning in the douchebag who started the experiment, and then giving their condolences and offering to help repair the damage to your house, they go straight back to living in their mansion, throwing lavish parties, and quipping constantly at totally inappropriate moments, and no-one faces any consequences at all. Instead they take credit for their efforts to stop the experiment once it got out of hand like they're the good guys.
>>69998616
I think it's not that he can tune into ANYONE'S heartbeat so much as he can filter it out of surrounding ones. He new where in the world Lois was and since he's balling her would be much more in tune with the heartbeat than his mothers. He didn't have the first clue where his mum was when she was kidnapped. I think the movie logic holds up, personally.
>>70003459
kek, MCUcks once again expose how reetarded they are in trying to argue something they don't even understand.
>>70003549
>his plan also hinged on bucky only mentioning siberia and not the mission report which would if steve knew about, he would have talked to tony about it and zemo's plan wouldn't work.
Did you even watch the movie, Steve knew about Bucky killing his Stark's parents the whole time (found out in WS).
>Tony: Did you know?
>Tony: Don't bullshit me Rogers, did you know.
>Steve: Yes
And Cap didn't tell Tony shit, Bird-Man did in the prison. Even if Tony rocked up with all his heroes and the US army who gives a fuck, Cap and Tony would still never work together again. That's the whole point, to break up the Avengers.
>>69994874
No one's gonna read this you faggot. Fuck off to bed now.
>>70003909
>replies 5 hours later
Why do you bother? I don't mean 4chan specifically either, I mean life in general?
>>69995062
>manchildren genuienly think there's thematic weight and intelligent ideas in their mass-produced conveyer belt products marketed to little kids
>literally men in spandex hitting each other
>It's a /tv/ doesn't understand how masterplans work episode
>>70003798
>Cap and Tony would still never work together again. That's the whole point, to break up the Avengers.
And all it took was the two of them acting completely out of character.
Tony, the billionaire tech genius with a problem with authority never breaks the encryption on SHIELD's/Hydra's files to find out what other dirty little secrets they've been hiding.
Steve. the forthright, straight-shooting heart of the team never tells Tony about Hydra's involvement in his parents' deaths, even after crawling Tony's ass in AoU about not trusting people and keeping secrets.
>>70004001
>doesn't refute the argument with evidence of his own
>genuinely can't proof read
>>70003798
if steve knew that zemo was trying to find out about happened in the mission report, he would have easily figured out zemo's plan, and then he would have talked to tony about it before zemo could do something and that would be it.
if tony doesn't kill bucky there's no reason for them to not work together again, because after tony calms down and gets a letter from steve he becomes reasonable again.
After WS, in AoU Tony even comes to assist with the take down of Hydra.
It's laughable that somehow he wouldn't have looked at the files before going on a mission associated with them.
Brace yourself, because this one could really hurt.
Ultron was a super-intelligent AI wired straight into the internet with two superhuman operatives at his disposal, one of whom is telepathic. Why didn't Ultron look into the encrypted files for crap he could use against the Avengers? It seems to me that anything he could do to keep them distracted would have been in his best interests, and if he thought he could drive a wedge between Tony(the brain) and Steve(the heart) of the Avengers, why wouldn't he have sent Wanda and Pietro to telepathically extract the information about the Winter Soldier program from the shut-in Zemo later interrogated?
>>69994950
Because he is the leader of the time, this is literally common fucking sense. I dont understand how a single person doesnt understand that.
>>69994463
The museum shows them as best friends you fucking idiot.
>>69995137
Thats true, originally his ancestor is supposed to fight Captain America in WWII and he wants revenge for him being killed. Now his family was killed by the Avengers and he blames Captain America specifically as the leader. Its essentially the same.
>>69995750
It makes sense he killed them, this is such a stupid complaint. He says brute force will not win a battle against the Avengers, he is right. He has no alligence to Hydra and said they deserved what they had coming. That makes sense, it would make less sense for him to revive them and try to negotiate with them when we see that wouldn't have worked either. Jesus christ, its not even a complex movie and people still dont get it somehow.
>>69995750
Sounds like you paid even less attention to the movie than Reddit Letter Media did.
>>70004495
Because you're taking this "super-intelligent AI" angle and using it for the basis of your complaint. I keep seeing people do this and it doesn't make sense. He is never portrayed like that, he is essentially a person. An emotion driven person. He has no reason to look into Hydra's files, which he probably doesn't even know exist, and even if he did they are not on the fucking internet which is the crux of your entire argument. They are physical papers, not internet files and not accessible to anyone with an internet connection. And lastly, even if you were completely right about all of that, which you're not, it doesn't fucking matter. You know just as well as anyone else that its clear this plot development did not yet exist, its essentially a retcon thought up specifically for one movie that takes place later. Congragulations, you found a minor logic hole in fucking capeshit. Its meaningless, it doesn't detract from anything overall. Your entire post is based on ignoring this fact and acting arrogant over your shocking revelation that capeshit doesn't make logical sense. Wow, incredible.
>>70004007
If you actually watched these movies you'd realize Steve and Tony act entirely consistently with the rest of the MCU leading up to this point.
>>70005113
They most certainly are on the internet. It's what Natasha is shown doing at the end of TWS. Him not knowing those files exist doesn't exactly work, either, especially given how he's seen looking over what is essentially the entirety of the internet after first achieving awareness. Also, if there wasn't any information about them on the internet, how did Zemo ever find them in the first place?
He's Tony's "child," and is even shown using some of Tony's own pet phrases. If anyone knew what would knock the legs out from underneath Tony, it's Ultron, not some spec-ops guy working out of his basement, for all we know. What Zemo took years to do, an AI as intelligent as Ultron is shown as being would be able to accomplish in a fraction of the time.
>>70003252
>zemo's plan sucked so much that it only took 1 letter from steve to tony for them to make up
Show me the scene after the letter where they "made up".
Zemo's plan resulted in
>Cap leaving behind the shield and mantle of Captain America, limiting his ability to inspire others, and causing him to go into hiding to protect his friend
>Black Widow to betray the law just to stop the fighting, and go into exile too
>all of Cap's buddies: Scarlet Witch, Ant-Man, Falcon, Hawkeye, to be imprisoned, and need to be broken out, resulting in them also being wanted criminals
>Vision "accidentally" severing the spine of the guy who hurt his waifu, causing him to doubt himself
>Rhodey to have to spend months in physical therapy before active duty
>Tony to have to live with the knowledge that he almost killed a man out of revenge
The ray of hope at the end is Cap's letter, but Tony is not yet shown to reciprocate, and if he did, it still wouldn't fix everything, because others like Hawkeye still hate Tony, most of them are now wanted criminals, and there is no longer an official, public "Avengers" team, unless you can count two active members as a team.
>>70004495
Because he already had Scarlet Witch to fuck the Avengers up emotionally, and his next stage was a world extinction event.
>>70005297
I love how you completely ignored everything after "even if you were completely right" because it would end this meaningless argument you seem so dead set on continuing for no reason. I'm not arguing over the semantics of capeshit, I really don't care to that extent anymore.
>>69997445
>The thing is that his entire plan falls apart if just one thing goes wrong.
I'd like to see how.
>>69993653
Sure.
>>70005113
I'm arguing the logic of archvillains' plans in a thread about archvillains. The "retcon" basically makes Ultron look stupid(or arrogant, which I grant you, would be completely in character and a believable rationalization for him not caring about how intact the Avengers are when they face him) and Zemo superfluous based off of the information given to us by the films.
You're the one rationalizing it and, forgive me for saying so, somewhat angry at me for pointing it out. Be angry at the guys who can't keep their plots and continuity consistent and believable. They're the ones who don't think much of you, not me.
>>69998479
>And he completely ignored Bruce's existence.
So would I, he's the Hulk
>>69994009
>>69993653
Lex's plan was dependent on Superman not being able to prove his innocence in the exposion (which was smart), and on Batman not letting Supes live (which was stupid). Releasing Doomsday was just "lol w/e" after his old plans failed.
Zemo's plan was dependent on Steve being a fucking moron and not telling Stark about the mind control and the fact that "the doctor" is the real villain and is currently flying away as soon as he could. SInce Stark went after Zemo to Siberia as soon as he found out about his villainy all on his own, he went after him and was ready to trust Steve. If Steve just informed Stark earlier instead of starting the stupid fight and destroying millions of dollars in property, Zemo would get caught even before he'd be able to destroy the other Winter Soldiers.
>>70005466
I think its widly agreed upon that Age of Ultron is a bad movie and Ultron as a character was mishandled. I am sorry for sounding angry at you.
Both villains were fairly unnecessary
Batman would probably still hate superman and want to kill him
Bucky was still a wanted man and captain America would still try to protect him. He would have still been the guy who killed Stark's parents (information about it was still available to anyone who bothered to look, just not the VHS tape). And the accords would have still happened without Zemo around
A real script writer would have taken them out of the movie or made them more important to the plot
>>70005740
What I hate about Lex Luthor, sorry to detract from the point of your post, is his plan WAS uneccessary and there's no doubt about it. He was attempting to manipulate Batman but he didn't even fucking know about it until he's already about to fight Superman and he sees all those notes with inane scriblles on them. So his character is pointless, all he is there to do is create a monster for Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman to team up against and set up the Justice League. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
As for Civil War, I loved Zemo because all his screen presence was menacing and engaging. I understand if you didn't but my case for his inclusion is simply he's a Captain America villain and on a conceptual level it was probably to make it all more Captain America focused instead of solely being an Avengers plot the third act shifts away from the team and focuses more on him with the only Avenger being Iron Man.
>>70005613
>Zemo's plan was dependent on Steve being a fucking moron and not telling Stark about the mind control
Tony knew, he just didn't care.
>>70005740
>And the accords would have still happened without Zemo around
would have?
they WERE completely unrelated to Zemo
>>70006512
Yes. That's what I said
>>70005848
Zemo was like the paper boy who chased around John cusack in Better Off Dead
>>69998850
So you're saying that he shouldn't have concocted a plan based on the fact that something in it could go wrong. So why does anyone make any plans if there's the possibility that all the information they have is not sufficient to make it work?
>>70005322
>Show me the scene after the letter where they "made up".
Tony ignorin CA rescuing his team from prison, infers that they're in agreement about it.
And even if they're wanted crimnals they haven't f ucked up the situation into something they can't come back from, they're going to get easily excused when there's another conflict that asks for their assistance.
>>70007516
>Tony ignorin CA rescuing his team from prison, infers that they're in agreement about it.
That if nothing else. Tony already didn't like what Ross was doing with his teammates, and told him he would put him on hold if he called. Him doing nothing while Cap acts is not quite the same as saying "I forgive you for not telling me your friend killed by father"
>>69993653
It's a movie,how the fuck wouldn't be based on the motherfuckin script mate?
>>69993653
Lex had a plan with plenty of back ups that went wrong because no one could foresee Batman feeling connected to Superman when truly realising they both had a mother. It also didn't go all that well for Lex, while he manipulated some people in government he had to adapt to the peach tea and bomb part of the plan.
>>70006512
If the accords hadn't happened how would Zemo's plan have ever worked?
Why didn't he just use a sniper to shoot the avengers?
>>69994009
>dcuck
>can't understand a basic plan from a villan
Wew lad you're retarded
>>70007897
There is absolutely no way that would work.
>>70007897
Why didn't Bucky tell anyone about the super weapons that would have rekt the avengers and the world? Zemo's p much a hero for shooting them. And daddy Stark is a war criminal I guess
>>69994009
>being a dc fan
>can't understand zemo's plan even though it is right in your face
God you guys are stupid
>>69993653
Who even was making that car crash recording btw?
>>70007855
Zemo's plan was to get to the bunker, get the tape and show it to Tony. That's literally it.
He could have done it with or without Ross assuming control over Avenger.
In fact, it's not Zemo's part, it's Civil War Registration part that is completely unnecessary
>>69993653
>So can we agree both of their master plains were based
Yes, didn't read the rest
>>70008133
Should've just sent him a private youtube link.
Nah, he needs the accord stuff to question Bucky to actually get the info.
>>69994286
Being a DC fag myself, only a severly blinded DC Fag would try to deny the fact that that sounds exactly like a batman thing for Zemo to have done. Nobody else gets prep time?
>>70007702
even if tony didn't forgiive Steve explicitly, you can assume he's well on his way.
The point is no one did annything that they can't back from, that's going to prevent them from working together again.
They're going to sort through their feelings and somehow it's going to make them stronger as a team when they do get together again.
The conflict was cheap and driven by superfiicial ego.
>>70008181
> Should've just sent him a private youtube link
He might have done just that, but Tony, Cap and Bucky happened to follow him to the bunker, so he showed it right then and there
> he needs the accord stuff to question Bucky to actually get the info
No? Bucky is on the run regardless.
Zemo has hydra book, he knows the code, only thing he needs is Bucky himself to fish out the location, so he sets him up and then waits until authorities find him
Accords change absolutely dicksquat
>>69993653
I felt that Lex was way too overblown. I felt that Zemo had the opposite problem, being too out of nowhere. Like both films with the exception of the last 20 or 30 minutes of BvS which was a fucking abortion. Walked out right after Bruce saves Martha on second viewing, much better film when you pretend that that's just the ending.
I give the nod to Civil War in general since Snyder really did his best to fuck up BvS. It had a lot of great shit in it, I enjoyed it, but Jesus Christ that man does not need to make movies.
>>70008133
Zemo's plan also had to have Bucky roaming around and not in prison.
Zemo's plan also had to have Bucky not mention to Steve about being asked about the mission report.
>>69995750
What would he have done with them? Do you think he could have controlled them? No way. Pulling their plugs was the only sane thing to do or else you wind up in a Wrath of Khan situation.
>>69997516
It's fucking stupid enough to be realistic. Politicians aren't logical. The UN cucks were acting just as they would in real life, and Cap was totally right. Putting the Avengers on a political leash, at the mercy of agendas, is idiotic. Of course they'd be blamed for all the shit that they did their best to stop.
Even though Ultron was Tony's fucking fault, so all those deaths are on him because he's a dipshit. But in real life, the people trying to do good things always get the bad "fallout" blamed on them for just being present. It was sickeningly realistic.
>>70008387
>Zemo's plan also had to have Bucky roaming around and not in prison
No?
Bucky was just means to the end -- the location to bunker and the way out of UN/Shield facility
>>70008387
>Zemo's plan also had to have Bucky not mention to Steve about being asked about the mission report.
Zemo had a complete control over Bucky through code words and could have easily ordered him not to mention that
And more importantly, he was actively rusing Cap into thinking his goal are Winter Soldiers
People get too fixated on the details, as if Zemo planned everything that happened in Civil War and executed it perfectly. That's not the way it happened, imo. His plan was to tear apart the Avengers by using Bucky. That's the crux of it, the details were adjustable as events unfolded. The fact that Steve, Tony and Bucky appeared in Siberia at the same time was not a necessary part of his plan, mostly just a plot contrivance so the audience gets a cool fight at the end. But he didn't plan on it. All he wanted was the tape, and afterwards, if no one showed up, he could've just emailed it to Tony or whatever. It's all to create a rift between Tony and Steve, and his plan would have worked even if Tony had stopped Steve and Bucky at the airport, or if Bucky had never told Steve about the other Winter soldiers.
Lex's plan is the opposite, it makes no fucking sense at all. Simple things like, how the fuck did he know on what day Batman would want to fight Superman? And what did the shooting in Africa even accomplish? What did the senate bombing accomplish? Batman is already motivated to fight Supes at the beginning of the movie, so Lex didn't even have to do anything. Superman's only motivation is that Lex kidnapped Martha, something he could've easily explained to Batman so they wouldn't have to fight. Utter trash.
>>70008550
If Bucky is in prison, Tony can't go and attack him right away, Steve gets a chance to talk to him, he calms down and sees the obvious reasoning, they move on. Oh and CA's team doesn't get put in prison.
Bucky can do and say what he wants when he isn't under MC.
>>70008610
>how the fuck did he know on what day Batman would want to fight Superman?
Might have something to do with knowing where Batman was
>>69994950
The Avengers are built on Tony & Steve. To destroy them, you need to destroy Tony & Steve. Make them totally unable to work together. The cracks were already there, he knew that, he just had to make them fatal to the team's integrity.
Why was there video footage of Bucky killing Tony's parents? It looked like an isolated road in the forest?
>>69993653
Why didn't Zemo trigger Bucky with the words to make it so Cap had to deal with two murderous people instead of just one? That would truly tear them all down and maybe result in some death.
>>69993653
Zemo went on cristal clear mission where the end was his own death.
But Lex had a plan B for killing Superman involving creating an uncontrolable homicidal beast. He would have been killed if Clark didn't catch that punch.
>>70008935
That would have been a complete mess. Tony trying to kill Bucky tring to kill Steeve trying to stop Tony.
>>69993653
>luck
A great manipulator doesn't need luck, that's why Lex is so captivating. He manipulated everything in to place, he didn't realise how triggered Batman is by the name Martha, though. I imagine if Lex knew that the reason Bruce is the Batman is because of his fathers work and his mother's death, he'd have planned for that too.
>>70009056
>mess
Classic Mexican Standoff, man. That would be awesome. But it wasn't, because nowadays producers are lazy cucks and afraid of scum of earth sjws.
>>70008610
Zemo's plan was crap, he didn't achieve crap. It pretty much amounts to oh no how is Tony gonna get O V E R having his feelings H U R T.
>>70007702
It wasn't obvious but the fact Steve extend the olive branch with his letter saying he understands he was doing what he thought was right and would help when needed and Tony looking thoughtfully at the phone means the bridge isn't burned forever.
>>70008233
This.
>>70009367
>the bridge isn't burned forever
Oh, obviously. They still have superhero-space-war movie to do. I don't think it will be automatic in the next one though.
>>70009227
That's my main problem with Zemo's plan. I don't really care if it's plausible, the aims of the plan and the effort he put into it was ultimately shit.
He'd have done better to roofie Cap and Pepper Potts and made a sex tape desu.
>>70009094
>he didn't realise how triggered Batman is by the name Martha, though.
That's how I read it too.
>>69993653
this pic made me realize that jesse eisenberg and rachel mcadams look exactly the same
>>70008786
>If Bucky is in prison
???
But Bucky was NOT in prison
it Zemo in fact who set him up and initiated manhunt so he could get his hand on him
After he had a little talk with him -- none of what any of heroes do changes anything
> Bucky can do and say what he wants when he isn't under MC.
hence Winter Soldiers ruse to pull a wool over Cap's eyes
>>69993653
Yes, but Lex's plan, somehow, barely made more sense than Zemos
Which is fucking weird
>>69993653
Zemo's plan was based on luck and script.
Lex's plan was simply a timewaster, since all he needed to do was kidnap Supe's mom and give Bruce the kryptonite, and everything would have been the same.
