Between Tuco and Angel Eyes, being as objective as possible, who's worse?
>>69029307
I wrote a term paper on this; standby.
i guess Sentenza (angel eyes in muh country) si lawful evil when tuco is chaotic/true neutral
Tuco is an opportunistic shitbag, Angel Eyes is an actual monster.
Well, he aimed at Angel Eyes
>>69029307
Can't tell. People are going to be leaning towards Angel Eyes because Tuco is shown on a sympathetic light when he confronts his brother.
We know next to nothing about Angel Eyes' past. Still leaning towards Angel Eyes because Tuco occasionally shows his human side.
>>69029540
To the best of my recollection, I don't think Tuco killed anyone who was totally defenseless, while Angel Eyes had no problem with mercilessly gunning down people who had no opportunity to harm him. I guess it's the difference between a bank robber who'll kill people who pose a threat to him, and a bank robber who doesn't want to leave any witnesses.
"Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez", known as 'The Rat'
Tuco's Crimes Stated During the First "Hanging": Tuco was "wanted in 14 counties of this state, the condemned is found guilty of the crimes of murder; armed robbery of citizens, state banks and post offices; the theft of sacred objects; arson in a state prison; perjury; bigamy; deserting his wife and children; inciting prostitution; kidnapping; extortion; receiving stolen goods; selling stolen goods; passing counterfeit money; and contrary to the laws of this state the condemned is guilty of using marked cards .
>>69029648
You have a very well refined taste, good sir.
Edit: thanks for the gold! xD
>>69029648
Oh yeah, totally forgot that Tuco's crimes extend outside of the movie.
>>69029628
This. Plus, Angel eyes has no problem witz torturing people.
Tuco is your regular thug when AE is a real psycho
>>69029648Sodomy!
>Uh?
Refusal of sodomy!
>Ah.
And killing my brother Kane.
>>69029648
Dunno why but i thought he Was wanted for rape too
>>69029648
>the theft of sacred objects
what did you steal you little likeable cunt?
>>69029777
The second time he's sentenced to hang, they mention the following:
>murder
>kidnapping
>assaulting a Justice of the Peace
>raping a virgin of the white race
>statutory rape of a minor of the black race
>intention of selling fugitive slaves
>>69029358
>>69029307
Very short summary of my paper in a very disorganized form because I'm going from memory and I wrote it two or three years ago for a course in critical theory.
The film is by and large an exploration of moral relativism and deconstruction (Jaques Derrida type shit).
Good and bad are relative terms that create meaning for each other. What is good? Not bad. What is bad? Not good. That was a crash course in post-structuralism, if you want to know more.
Note that Sergio Leone chose the word 'bad' rather than evil.'Evil' is a big loaded logocentric word that implies some kind of objectively stable moral framework -- which is exactly what he's trying to undermine here.
Because the two words 'good' and 'bad' create meaning for each other under this context, this changes our interpretation of the word good. Good, in this context isn't 'Good' in an objective moral sense -- it's more like the mundane version of the word 'Good', like I just had a good cheeseburger. Basically, Good and Bad referrers to something very different than Good and Evil.
The important thing to look at here is that Good and Bad, being opposites that create meaning for each other -- are two halves of an unstable binary, with no ultimately objective or transcendent source of meaning, and that this unstable binary is placed in a very barren nearly nihilistic setting where comparison of these two people is the closest thing either we, the viewer, or the characters themselves can find to any kind of moral order.
If this sounds fucked up, that's because it is.
Tuco 'the ugly' is a guy that believes in binaries. "there are two kinds of people in the world my friend" is his line repeated over and over throughout the movie. Everything in his conception of the world boils down to binary categorization.
The problem is that the world, and the human condition isn't like that. It's not clean-cut, it's not simple, it's not pretty -- it's ugly.
>>69029834
Probably a gold icon or cross from a mission.
>>69029865
Woh.
If Van Cleef is 100% evil then tuco is 95%
>there are people who don't realize Tuco is the hero of TGTBATU
>>69029433
I doubt alignment had anything to do with his decision
Came down to taking out the bigger threat, as he already knew Tuco was packing empty iron
>>69029894
Thank you anon
>>69029991
Not to mention that he knew through experience that he could take care of Tuco. Angel Eyes was a lot more in question.
>>69029307
Tuco was obviously the villain in all this. Hook-nosed Angel Eyes was the ugly.
>>69029358
>>69029894
Tuco is a guy that was searching for any kind of order in the nihilistic chaos and he reached for a life-line: differentiation. He couldn't find objective truth in god, but he could at least look at the world comparatively in a case by case basis and arrange it into binaries.
The problem is, that this is also a western movie and it RELIES on tropes of Good and Bad.
For the movie to work, *someone* has to be good, and *someone* has to be bad. But Tuco is a messed up guy with a complicated history -- more history, I might add, than either of the other more simple characters who fit more easily into the relativistic version of the classic western archetypes.
Even though he believes in binaries, he has trouble consistently forcing himself into one, and so his behavior, his beliefs, his motivation -- it's all an ugly inconsistent flailing chaotic mess.
Final answer: in the context of the film, Blondie is 'good' and Angel Eyes is 'bad'.
Tuco is the poor sap that gets run over by golden-age Western Movie tropes because he simply cannot fit properly into them, and yes you're supposed to feel both sympathy and contempt for him -- that's real life and real people.
TL;DR When people say that Spaghetti westerns are a deconstruction of Hollywood westerns, they aren't kidding.
>>69030063
>that he knew through experience that he could take care of Tuco.
When ?
>>69030194
Throughout the movie, man. Blondie wouldn't've had Tuco be the guy with the noose if Blondie didn't know he stood no danger from him.
>>69030063
Exactly it, m8.
Best handle the major threat first ie the cold-blooded psychopath with outstated & legitimate shooting skillNot bashing Tuco's skills with a gun. He proved himself a competent shooter throughout the movie
>>69029307
tuco is a petty thief
angel eyes is more calculating, more capable of cruelty, like a mob boss
>>69030187
I don't think Blondie fits the good archetype particularly well in this film. Even the first one, which is a lot more simplistic, still doesn't paint him in the colours of the unambiguously good archetype.
>>69029865
absolute madman
Well, the original title is il buono il brutto e il cattivo.
In italian, buono means indeed ugly but "bad" too. Just like il cattivo (well, its not as violent but its the same idea).
If Angel Eyes is bad, then Tuco is ugly AND bad.
Van Cleef is violent for his profit and business. Tuco is more chaotic, out ot control (rape n stuff)
better comparison is Indio and Angel Eyes
>>69030326
If you're going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
>>69030244
I disagree. I think the 3 of 'em are equal when it comes to fire a gun
>>69030187
>>69029894
Thanks for sharing
>>69030326
>I don't think Blondie fits the good archetype particularly well in this film.
Oh absolutely. As I said -- the Leone presents it all as relative. Compared to Angel eyes, he's good.
It's the same way that compared to dog shit, a mcdonald's cheeseburger is 'good'.
But for the context of the film you've got to set up those binaries.
If Leone left it at that, and simply shot a really gritty western with relativistic 'good' and 'bad' it still would have been somewhat effective at undermining the archetypes.
But then he dialed it up another notch and threw Tuco into the mix. The way I read it, Blondie and Angel eyes demarcate the limits of context for Good and Bad in *this* movies (even while undermining the older White Hat / Black Hat archetypes)
Tuco can't be categorized into either of these camps without fracturing and breaking him up into component pieces -- deconstruction.
Like I said: Good and Evil are clean and simple and pretty.
The real human condition is ugly.
>>69030504
they obviously aren't as blondine was faster than angel eyes in the only duel in the movie
tuco's record was inflated to inflate the bounty. he didn't actually do any of those things and the worst thing he does in the movie is rob the gun smith. when he's at the mission he punches his brother but he doesn't steal anything.
>>69030674
Huge advantage : he knew Tuco's gun was empty.
Plus (but im just assuming) Angel Eyes may havé thought then would team up since they spent a lot of time together (wouldnt be surprising since he tortured tuco
>>69030625
Could Leone have done justice to Blood Meridian?
>>69030838
I have no idea what you're saying. Blondie and Angel Eyes drew on each other and Angel Eyes died without firing a shot. Angel Eyes knew he was fucked but decided that drawing on Blondie was his best chance but Blondie was just faster.
>>69031014
Its easier to win when you have only one guy to watch
>>69030625
>>69030187
>>69029894
is your paper available online somewhere?
>>69030625
>If Leone left it at that, and simply shot a really gritty western with relativistic 'good' and 'bad' it still would have been somewhat effective at undermining the archetypes.
>But then he dialed it up another notch and threw Tuco into the mix.
It's like this.
Relativism undermines the classic stock archetypes.
Then deconstruction undermines the relativism.
This movie is actually cutting edge for the 60's. Stuff like Lacan and Foucault and Derrida was brand-new avante-garde philosophy at the time.
>>69030101
One of my favourite moments of the film.
>>69031213
No, but I might be able to dig it up off some hard drive. I'll take a look when I get home from work.
>>69031316
If you could anon, that'd be great. It sounds very interesting from your summary.
>>69030857
Oh wow. Most definitely. Too bad.
was harmonica better than the trio ?
>>69031487
Harmonica is some of the best character work that Leone's ever done. Period.
>>69031603
I mean, with a gun in his hand
>>69031487
Harmonica is like a character out of a fucking Wagner opera. It's like Sergio Leone took a look at American westerns and said to himself "Oh, you like big larger than life mythic archetypes, do you? Well have a taste of this motherfucker, then."
>Dave Jenkins, Calder Benson [...] Jim Cooper, Chuck Youngblood
>>69029307
Angel Eyes.
He enjoys it.
>>69029648
> bigamy
> desertion of wife and child
> no rape
Checkmate, feminists.
>>69030281
> competent
Are you fucking kodding me?
Tuco is a demi god with a handgun.
>>69031640
Phew. I couldn't even guess. It's been way too long since I've watched Once Upon a Time. It's one of the best Westerns ever made, true, but it's also nearly three hours long, and the blu ray release is disappointing as hell.
>>69031640
Harmonica beat three guys at the beginning of the film. He was hit, but that didn't seem to bother him too much. Honestly, I don't think the Trio could do anything to him, the dude is invincible.
>>69032886
He's the Lawless West. That's why he dies at the end of the movie, at the same time as the train pulls into the station. Not only is the way of life in the West dead, so is the idea of Frontier Justice.
>>69032886
Could Noodles beat him?
who /juan/ here?
>>69029865
i thought tuco was white
Is it true that clint is the only surviving actor from the good the bad and the ugly?
>>69034834
>i thought tuco was white
No you fucking didn't.
>>69030250
Are one of those the guy that turns up later when Tuco is in the bath?
>>69034917
Yes, Tuco died last year, and Angel Eyes has been dust for over a decade now.
>>69035003
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqnaLoy1Sh8
>>69029865
He's charged with rape, but was it?
When you get down to it, they're all murderers.
>>69034917
Yes.
I mean, there's probably an extra or two, or a guy with a small role that survived, but the most important actors are all dead except for Clint.
ITT: Plebs watching overrated spaghetti pleb movies.
>But muh nostalgia
Most of you were born in the last 15 years and you all need to stick to game of thrones and star wars.
>>69036058
We're not supposed to enjoy movies that represent the best of what the genre is capable of? Are we also not supposed to like Good Fellas or Casino?
honest to god my favorite movie ever. i watched itwhile on acidand it was one of the most amazing experiences ever. still an amazing movie bone dry sober too.
