So who was ultimately in the right?
>>68982562
Aunt May
>>68982608
I wanted to rub her feet
>>68982608
what a fiasco was this casting..
>>68982562
Zemo
>>68982562
Our right or their right?
>>68982562
No one. Everybody fucked up.
>>68983622
>fiasco
literally how? shes the hottest chick in this
The same dude who's literally in the right
It's like they went out of their way to make Cap seem like an insane and unlikeable person
>>68982562
Zemo
>>68983665
Aunt may is old with white hair. she is old from the beginning of spiderman s creation.
>>68983665
lmao
>>68983639
How was he in the right?
>AAARGHHH TONY help! they made me look like a dick in my own movie
>aarhgjjjhh TONY they put my name on Ironman 4
>>68983834
The Avengers have directly and indirectly caused more death and destruction than they have prevented. Zemo didn't want anyone else to experience what he had suffered.
>>68983798
Well she isn't anymore
This isn't a comic
>>68983834
Avengers are wholly responsible for Sokovia. Zemo is merely just getting revenge on them. Zemo if i recall only kills like 15 or so people in the entire film. The Avengers so far have probably contributed to a lot of collateral over the years.
Stark killed his senpai, plus he was just generally based.
>>68982562
Did the conflict really matter?
Just enjoy the film
>>68983766
Based Zemo
>The Avengers have directly and indirectly caused more death and destruction than they have prevented
>>68983966
WHO WAS IN THE MORAL RIGHT YOU PIECE OF SHIT TELL ME
>>68983925
Pretty sure the battle of new york would have wiped out earth if it wasnt for the avengers
who the fuck was zemo?
>>68984037
If they had failed in Avengers 1 the entire planet would be fucked dude.
>>68984037
>>68984111
>>68984123
>I AM GOING TO COMPLETELY IGNORE THE FACT THAT IF THOR, AN AVENGER, DIDN'T GET OUTCAST TO EARTH FOR ARROGANCE, THEN LOKI WOULD NEVER HAD A REASON TO TRY AND INVADE THE PLANET FOR THANOS
>>68984037
>AoU
Ultron created by Stark.
Hulk and Stark fight destroy half a city.
>Winter Soldier
An organization like SHIELD existing in the first place.
They're the only Marvel films that I remember atm.
I think it's interesting that Civil War kind of allows you to doubt and question the supposed heroes, it's a nice change imo.
>>68984123
Yeah but without the avengers the aliens wouldn't have tried to invade it
>>68984201
Well it was supposed to be a deconstruction of the universe.
>>68984116
Nobody, just a guy who lost his family in Sokovia.
>>68983936
meanwhile MoS is garbage because it doesen't stick to the source material
>>68984198
Thor's fault doesn't mean its the entire avengers teams fault you fucking retard.
>>68984201
Hydra would have succeeded if it wasnt for cap. What about all people iron man had to fight?
they were both wrong
but tony was less wrong
>>68984080
Captain
>>68984080
Cap is left-wing and Tony is right-wing
you decide who was right
>>68984345
He is a component part of the Avengers and his actions are therefore accountable upon the group.
Irrespective of this as it doesn't change the incremental point that had Thor not been banished to Earth in the first place, Loki would have had no reason to fuck with the planet. His motivation in Avengers was purely vengeance. A vengeance that was purported by the acts of the first Thor film, which in turn was set about by Thor's arrogance.
The red guy was the only one who gave a potentially true argument. I doubt it was true though.
I mean do you really think bad guys are going to do what they do just for the challenge that the avengers provide?
>>68983936
I'm sure that when Peter went home and saw Tony and May, those 2 just went back from an afternoon sex session.
>>68982562
>"He killed my mom."
Anyone who still thought Steve was in the right after this deserves to get punched in the dick.
>>68983798
I always wondered about that. If Peter is a high school student, why would his mother's/father's sister be elderly and grey? His aunt shouldn't be granny-aged.
>>68984551
>boo boo a brainwashed soldier killed my mum so I'm gonna turn against my own friend
Fucking retard.
I don't understand, they saved people in Sokovia, Pietro's sacrifice in action, but they just start fighting for one fucking kid?
>>68984551
So Hawkeye deserved to die after he killed all those SHIELD agents while he was under Loki's control?
>>68984501
No, but as comic books and comic book movies are for children, they are incredibly simplistic. The batman mythos relies heavily upon this logic as well.
>>68984551
>He killed my mom he deserves to die
>Half an hour ago I was told I killed a woman's son
>Im still righteous
>>68982562
What would Cap have done even if the rest of the team agreed with him?
The US government was telling them to cooperate or effectively be declared enemies of the state.
No one elected the Avengers, so what would Cap have done even if everything with Bucky hadn't happened? Notice Cap doesn't even ONCE consider accepting government oversight and negotiating for rights like being able to refuse missions the team doesn't like, which would've probably happened if he'd just played ball.
All of this was for the team's benefit in the end, otherwise who's supposed to handle the legal side of things in situations of collateral damage? Who's held liable?
By all legal definitions, they WERE vigilantes because they were operating outside both federal and international law.
Seriously, how could ANYONE side with Cap on this? Even forgetting all the shit about Tony's parents, Cap is still 100% in the wrong.
>>68984645
Die? No. Face repercussions? Yes. He probably should have been given a discharge from the military or something.
>>68984617
He was insane during the whole movie.
>>68984638
Tony used him as an example of why they need surveillance.
Neither really.
Captain's viewpoint of the Avengers acting with impunity, without thought for diplomacy, and no consequences, caused major damage and collateral damage. You can't have a special forces group of weapons of mass destruction acting independently on what they think is right with no anchor of responsibility beyond their own mindset.
But at the same time, it's pretty terrifying having the same group under the control of the government. What if they turn them against innocent people because it suits a certain agenda? What if they use them in covert CIA like missions to decimate presidents who don't fit the agenda?
What if even at the most harmless measure, that they are on the leash of the UN and no outside agenda's affect them, what if the UN decide they are not needed for a certain crisis, which results in the death of millions or possibly the destruction of the earth, because the Avengers lost their potency in a bureaucratic and diplomatic nightmare.
It's the fear of an all powerful organisation with no restrictions beyond their own conscience, vs the fear of an all powerful organisation run by the government, vs dismantling an all powerful organisation which is the earth's only line of defence in situations.
Neither party got the balance right. No one was right in this.
>>68984488
Wrong, dumbass.
>>68984617
I guess if in the future a North Korean soldiers kills your mom, he doesn't have to be held accountable because he was "brainwashed."
>>68984708
>comparing a death from collateral damage to someone murdering two people in cold blood on camera
>>68984708
That's Tony Stark. He's self centered and not a real hero unlike people like Cap, Spiderman or Daredevil. I believe he said it himself in the very first MCU movie.
>>68984768
hawk guy wasn't at fault, why would he be punished?
>>68982608
I liked the after-credits scene where she thinks she caught Peter jerkin his pud. Would be nice if they went that angle in the solo movie: horny Aunt May "accidentally" catching Peter in awkward suggestive moments.
Was Tony's mom named Martha?
>>68984551
"You're killing Martha!"
t. Captain America
>>68984735
He was considering it riht before Tony opened his stupid mouth and let slip that they were detaining Scarlet Witch.
You're still right, but Cap did consider, albeit very briefly.
>>68984735
I don't get it--wasn't SHIELD a government agency? Wasn't it Coulson and Nick Fury that went around recruiting the Avengers in the first place?
>>68984955
yes
didn't you watch winter soldier?
>>68984735
For real, even if Stark proved Bucky's innocence Cap would still have to pay for destroying an airport and other things.
>>68984798
They weren't going to be under the control of one government though, and as much as people like to rag on the UN, it's still the most representative body of the collective human interest.
And they could always have a clause that the Avengers can't take a mission they don't like.
>>68984832
haha imagine if she sucked him off, just for laughs haha.
>>68984735
>BUT MUH WAIFU'S NIECE GAVE A HIGH-SCHOOL LEVEL SPEECH ON MORALITY DURING MUH WAIFU'S FUNERAL!!!!
>>68984846
Maria
>>68984037
It's a balance of power. If there we now super villians, the heroes would become corrupt with no one to stand up to them, which would lead to other supers trying to stop them and thus becoming the good guys.
From Lokis point of view, he was in the right
>>68984735
The new measure would have either neutered their power, or would have put them under the control of a government which is happy to hold them in maximum security cell's beneath the ocean without trial for going against them.
I really doubt a government that is willing to do that to people would be happy having less than full control over the avengers, including those rights they negotiate. Do you really think when push comes to shove they are going to listen to them; they'll tell them to fall in line and waive their rights or get declared a vigilante and thrown beneath the ocean.
This act would put a gun to the Avengers head; any act against what the government want could turn them into criminals, to get rid of a convenient problem. And with them becoming government mechanism, suddenly they have complete control over a group who can destroy a nation in hours. Is that not terrifying?
Not saying Captain is right, the Avengers must have some form of accountability and restrictions, but the other side isn't right either.
>>68982562
BvS
Avengers are cancer.
>>68985192
>The new measure would have either neutered their power, or would have put them under the control of a government which is happy to hold them in maximum security cell's beneath the ocean without trial for going against them.
That was only after they became international criminals if you watched the movie. They effectively got Guantanamo'd for being terrorists.
Accepting the deal actually was the best middle ground but they effectively slapped it away and threw down the gauntlet.
>>68982562
Both Tony and Cap had very emotional and personal attachments to their respective sides. For Tony it was his parents and the damage that his own power had caused. For Cap it was Bucky, Carter, and Hydra. But that meant that they both acted irrational as fuck, and caused more harm than good
>>68985016
The UN is subject to Agenda's and lobbying. It can also be dominated. At best, it could lead to the situation where the Avengers don't get deployed in a situation they are really needed because some parties have their own interest in play. At worst, they become puppets to one party via the UN.
And as stated, they could have that clause, but if there is a mission the Avengers disagree with which parties want done, they can tell them to fall in line or declare the opposing hero's as vigilantes and throw them in aqua-guantanamo.
>>68985016
UN is a fucking joke. No one get's anything done when all the big guys can veto everything they don't like. Saudi-fucking-Arabia is the president of a human rights committee.
All UN do is talk shit, tell everyone how they're worried about things but never do anything to fix them and summon Anita Sarkeesian to talk about disagreeing with womyn on the internet is rape.
UN wouldn't be able to send Avengers to Syria because every sunni muslim country + Israel with it's allies would oppose it.
Also this: >>68985337
>>68985323
The fact that they have that super jail for seemingly permanent imprisonment is enough. They were criminals but still entitled to fair and just trials. They instead got Guantanamo'd.
It's a slippery slope, and if that is a legitimate option for these people, what could they do with unlimited power at their disposal.
>>68984123
How? The enemies were complete fucking garbage. Black Panther could've probably solo'd the entire army. Or the Ancient One. Or Aunt May.
>>68985192
>they must be held accountable
That's what was happening before Cap's side rejected the deal and interfered with an international police operation.
Yes you can say Zemo tricked them into it but they were still acting on what they knew and instead of helping them bring Bucky in alive, Cap FOUGHT THE FUCKING COPS.
>>68985292
this
>>68985337
Was pretty on board with Steve when he said that.
Evans nailed the delivery.
>>68984499
Was't there an infinity stone on earth?
>>68985464
When did Cap fight cops.
>"Can you move your seat?"
Truly capekino
>>68985464
They were getting more than accountability though, they were becoming an army capable of toppling nations with ease subject to agenda's and diplomacy. There's very much a possibility that the Avengers could be sent on missions they have no right to be on because they are being used as pawns in one countries dispute against another. That is, if they don't end up under United States control only.
Becoming a government army would make them a terrifying body beyond belief. To think something like the Avengers can become embroiled in international squabbling over whatever is awful.
They need to stay an independent body with accountability somehow. They can't act privately that's dangerous, but being a government body is just as dangerous.
>>68985337
>>68985411
Everything is subject to agendas. The point is that if they take on a mission, they won't be held entirely responsible for the things that go wrong, instead of being completely responsible with no one held accountable.
If your family had been on that floor Wanda blew up, there's literally no one you could hold responsible for it or even file a complaint.
And I doubt the fact that they prevented a biological attack would be much comfort.
>>68985570
When they were going after Bucky.
If you haven't watched the movie, don't talk.
>>68985529
Pretty much. I was firmly on Ironman's side until that point. The Avengers are too strong to go unchecked. But having them as pawns in international squabbling and subject to agenda's rather than being a force acting on matters of global safety, that's just as bad
>there are people in this thread who are unironically discussing the plebiest of capeshit blockbuster entertainment
>>68985671
They would still be a more representative force than one that was only acting in their own interests.
What if one of them was manipulated into taking on a mission that was wrong or got involved in something out of personal interest, as we've seen them do already? Without any government oversight, that makes them all the more dangerous.
>>68985780
They were they're to kill him you smug bitch.
>>68985721
But I'd rather they be some form of group which can go on those kind of missions then be held accountable afterwards, than be a group which can't go on a mission they really need to be on because the UN vote to send them in would upset the Russians and disrupt a trade dispute between them and the US. Or worse, they get sent on missions of active imperialism because they can be deployed on them now.
Cap's idea wasn't right, but neither was Starks
>>68985886
Oh should we discuss The Revenant or The Danish Girl instead?
Wasn't really a fan of the power-creep.
A high-powered human assassin doesn't really matter when you have magical cat niggas and men in robot suits that can shred entire battalions
Not to mention Vision and Wanda who seem so overpowered they could just wipe out the majority of the Avengers by themselves.
>>68985893
I'm not arguing that no government restrictions is the best option. I'm saying the terms put to them in this firm were way to far in the governments/UN's favor.
Neither party was right.
>>68984708
It's not like he flew down there and strangled/beat the kid to death personally. But he probably didn't think about whether or not some of those terrorist dudes in IM1 had kids before burning them alive either.
Post more aunt may please
>>68985529
>>68985797
>that's just as bad
It really isn't. Being guided by personal whims is always worse than being the subject of the whims of representative governments.
UN control would've prevented them from going after a lot of smallfry sure, but it'd probably agree when it came to using them to stop an alien invasion.
Thing about the UN is that everything they do is so high profile, you literally wouldn't be able to send them on black ops or really anything that's illegal, which is what Cap was worried about in the first place.
>>68985988
The UN actually was the best option, subject to no single government.
If you can think of a better option, be my guess.
>>68985921
>But I'd rather they be some form of group which can go on those kind of missions then be held accountable afterwards, than be a group which can't go on a mission they really need to be on because the UN vote to send them in would upset the Russians and disrupt a trade dispute between them and the US.
Why? How much do they really "need" to go on such a mission if even America wouldn't be alright with it? An unsanctioned mission into Russia is a violation of sovereignty and could effectively lead to nuclear war. That's absolutely something you want to avoid.
>Or worse, they get sent on missions of active imperialism because they can be deployed on them now.
I doubt it. Refusing to take a mission for the UN has never landed a nation or body in hot water of any kind, I don't see why it would be different for them.
>>68986146
*guest
>>68986307
>Why? How much do they really "need" to go on such a mission if even America wouldn't be alright with it? An unsanctioned mission into Russia is a violation of sovereignty and could effectively lead to nuclear war. That's absolutely something you want to avoid.
What if you've got HYDRA creating weapons of mass destruction in the middle of Siberia, which would cause massive disasters across the globe and allow the organisation leverage in power, but the Avengers can't go in to stop it because it would disrupt trade talks. Is that fine?
>
I doubt it. Refusing to take a mission for the UN has never landed a nation or body in hot water of any kind, I don't see why it would be different for them.
Because they are people with superpowers. People who, by nature of the very treaty being signed, can be declared supervillains at a moments notice, and if it suits, get thrown in hyper jail without trial, at the hands of the US state department and CIA.
>>68986146
Same guy presume. Me it would involve making them subject to UN sanctions and prosecution without taking their independence to at.
The Avengers become liable for all collateral damage that has monetary value, they have to pay it. Criminal sanction could be levied against them for missions. Full mission reports are to be made to the UN after the fact and be a matter of public record. UN sanctioned training to be implemented with Avengers only being declared for fighting after being assessed by UN agents. Keep the general assembly informed and potentially troublesome issue to be taken to vote.
Act with some independence to decide the missions and how to go about them but keep them firmly under UN authority to act against them when they fuck up (both in payments to cover costs, and criminal sanctions for real big fuck ups)
>>68984198
Sure he would have. Thor having been cast out to Earth has nothing to do with Loki's later actions on Earth; theoretically Thor could have been sent to any planet to learn the same lesson and result in Loki being banished.
Loki comes to Earth because the damn tesseract is there, and has been for centuries. Thanos was going to come for it anyways.
>>68986761
I like how your argument basically boils down to "we can trust the Avengers because they're our guys but we can't trust the UN because this and this *could* happen."
Even though we've seen the Avengers acting out of misguided motivations before.
Basically, you're biased in favor of them because we've seen a dozen movies about them but zero about the actual damage they caused or how they're being viewed by the non-superpowered public.
Even though you're forgetting that governments are also made up of people who would have to face the same dilemmas our heroes face, but with the actual caveat of needing to consult and negotiate and yes, compromise with each other.
You'd rather have a benign dictatorship, which is fine right up until it stops being benign.
>>68987198
We can trust the Avengers because they are doing the good thing, and we can't trust the government because they will use the Avengers as their own weapon and because HYDRA infiltrated them.
>>68987441
HYDRA infiltrated SHIELD, neither of which exist anymore.
And "good thing" is a matter of perspective. There's nothing to say they wouldn't do better things with more oversight.
>>68982562
Certainly not fucking "Thunderbolt" Ross.
What a piece of shit hypocrite. WAH WAH WAH YOU GUYS NEED TO BE KEPT IN CHECK
Meanwhile, his methods of attempting to deal with the Hulk being: hunt the Hulk, piss off the Hulk, shoot at the Hulk, shoot at the Hulk with bigger guns and finally, shoot the Hulk some more with more people.
Result? Destruction everywhere. No captured Hulk.
Fuck him.
>>68985473
>>68985292
t. Butthurt dcuck
>>68984289
Not having a 90 year old aunt for a 15 year old boy =/= completely changing the characterization of an iconic character
>>68984812
>comparing north koreans to actual scifi brainwashing
Kill yourself
>>68984638
>Battle of New York
>Cap fighting HYDRA in DC
>Avengers going all over the world sanctioned only by themselves causing mayhem while destroying HYDRA bases
>the Sokovia incident
>what happened in Lagos
People don't care about how many people you save, but about how many people you didn't save.
You have to understand that after The Winter Soldier, SHIELD doesn't exist anymore, and the Avengers are a totally independent organization with absolutely zero ties to any government agency.
Tony is right, they do need supervision. The Lagos incident just reminded everyone about all the other shit the Avengers had been involved with, and the UN started pushing for the Avengers to become a sanctioned organization under UN supervision.
The kid made it personal for Tony, because he was directly responsible for what happened in Sokovia.
If the shit with Bucky hadn't happened then Cap would probably have signed the Accords, and he and Tony would've waited for things to cool down so the Accords can have the shit amended out of them.
>>68988771
Now this is shitposting
>>68989033
>he believes north koreans are put in chambers for brainwashing and their personalities change with a couple of words
>>68983622
You have to be gay. No other explanation.
>>68985972
A high-powered human assassin does matter when he hasn't been caught in 70 years and is the prime suspect in an act of terrorism AND THE MURDER OF A KING.
Didn't see the movie
not going to bother the trailer looks like gay shit
But the registration side is correct. No society would allow a bunch of lunatics to run around beating up citizens wearing masks
or allow some teenager who has the mutant power to melt someones brain on the other side of the planet
this is the dumbest storyline in comics and they use it all the time.
>>68989616
>lunatics running around beating up citizens wearing masks and teenagers who can melt brains from the other side of the planet aren't okay
>but creating government killsquads from said lunatics and teenagers is totally okay
Just saying there's two sides to everything.
And like Cap said in the movie you're never going to see, governments have agendas, and agendas change over time.
The same governments that would have access to brain melting teenager killsquads, to send wherever they like.
>>68989183
>I'm an expert on North Korean brainwashing practices
>>68989825
As oppose to those brain-melting teams doing whatever they want with zero oversight and not being subject to any laws?
Vision.
Ignore muh registration act, he has good taste in waifu.
>>68990238
I don't see CIA following that many laws especially during cold war
>>68984551
He wasn't in the right. But, by that point, Tony was already an emotional mess, and the bigger thing was: Steve had kept that secret away from him.
And hell, if I knew that my own parents were killed, in cold blood, and the murderer was in the same room as me, I sure as hell would kill the guy. Even if he was brainwashed. Also consider that, the very fact that he could be brainwashed means he could be brainwashed again
>>68983716
Insane and unlikeable? Its more like Tony was insane and Cap was confused. But both were likeable.
Cap just wanted to save his buddy. And was against the whole idea of world governments telling him what to do, and what decisions to make.
Tony may be an emotional mess, but it seems evident that Rhodes may have been the one to convince him that participating in the accords was the right thing. And it was to some extent - Tony was just trying to do some damage control within the Avengers.
In the end, neither was right, nor completely wrong. The msot poignant moment was when Cap dropped the shield - in a way, he was agreeing with iron Man - he didn't deserve it.
>>68993213
Also Steve was pretty limp-wristed about the whole thing.
His apology in the letter was basically "Yeah my bad, but if you want to talk about it I'll be here mmk?"
>>68983966
The conflict mattered, because it was literally breaking of a friendship.
Arguably, a friendship that had problems, but, managed to work together.
The problems started when (a) bother couldn't compromise and (b) both sides had done fairly questionable things. For Tony, it was putting the Scarlet Witch under technical house arrest and getting a kid to join his side. For Steve, it was trying to protect his best friend, even though he was a brainwashed assassin in the past, and, hiding a secret from Tony. Neither action on both side was completely wrong, but, they are controversial.
Its why Civil War works - its not only political, its also personal.
>>68984198
So then I suppose it was also Ton'y fault for making Killian jaded and pretend to be some kind of terror organisation?
>>68985886
This movie, at its core, is better than BvS
>>68991427
considering the cia is a shadow organization they dont really follow the laws.
>>68986012
To be fair those terrorist dudes were killing women and kids too.
>>68987879
>neither of which exist anymore.
both are in a hiatus. Hydra will never die
>>68984735
>they WERE vigilantes because they were operating outside both federal and international law
Nigga what the fuck?
SHIELD was literally created by the army in cap's movie.
>>68993606
Thats the thing. Neither side was completely right. And they still respected each other. But it still makes things a lot more awkward - there's no way they'll walk out of this unscathed.
Tony may respect Steve enough to let him form a Secret Avengers type of thing, but, I don't think he'd be able to work with Steve again, after that fight. And I think Steve recognized that he didn't deserve the shield Howard gave him.
Would be cool to see Cap become Steve Rogers Supersoldier for a change.Finally means Chris Evans will stick to wearing the stealth suit
