>the editing
Every scene succeeds in getting across what its trying to get across. Whether its a characters motivation, personality, behavior, etc. I swear, if you think the movie jumps around too much, you might need to start eating half a grapefruit every morning or something.
>the dialogue
Eeeevery line is exactly what each given character would say in the given situation. I honestly don't understand the complaint about dialogue. Anything bruce, clark, or lex say in the whole movie just expose their characters perfectly.
>not the batman/superman/lex that i wanted
Before anyone says that's not how so and so acts, you can trace every element in some way back to a version of the character in the comics. So give up on that one. Again, I don't understand this complaint. How do you not let a creator bring his own vision to life? How do you bog them down with your expectations? The characters are good. They are fleshed out. They just aren't what you wanted. I feel bad for you tbqh.
>plot holes
Like fucking what. Ive seen why does lex use zods fingerprints when he brought him there anyway. Well he didnt know he was going to bring him there at that point. He only learned about doomsday from the archives then got the idea. Ive seen why does batman make a spear instead of a gun or whatever else. Its because the finale means so much to him. He didnt want a cheap kill. He wanted to prove to himself that he could break superman and drive a spear into his chest like the animal he is because bruce believes it is his destiny to be a hunter (at least in this scenario). Every thread i see about plot holes makes me think that all of you bashers either are stupid, are joking, or didnt watch the movie.
I thought this movie was incredible btw. Fav comic movie of all time.
>>67767801
>It's an obvious b8 draws 200+ replies episode
Also fingerprints of a COLD DEAD BODY wouldn't fucking activate it
>>67767801
The denile just grows stronger.
I want a great Superman, Justice League, Batman, Wonder Woman etc movie. This was not it. It was a spectacular failure of film making, seemingly messing up every single thing.
It was terrible but will make all the money and continue a shitty poorly made film series. It's the Adam Sandler of movies.
The reviews arent wrong
Most of them were not muh and muh fun
Audiences are equally braindead
Sorry, its not about audiences not apprecuating the movie, they cant ever.
Hopefully it did succeed in awakening some of the capeshit viewers to more complex stories and sophisticated themes. We'll see as the rest of the generic capeshit this year is doled out rather parts of audiences were awoke to their mediocrity
>>67767912
>implying that Adam Sandler is bad
nice b8
>>67767801
can someone please explain to me if Batman bin Laden had a DREAM, a PREMONITION, or a VISION?!?
Seriously, this is left so open that it felt forced. Some dude tells him Lois Lane is the key, and not to trust someone (although who, we do not know), then Affleck wakes up. but even before that, he had the dream/vision/premonition of a post-apocalyptic Earth.
So can Batman now see into the future? Or was it just a dream? And if it was a dream, why bother putting it in the film?
For the record, I REALLY wanted to like this movie, but I just can't wrap my head around the terrible editing and plot holes (eg why would superman hesitate to use his laser eyes to kill batman and save his mother?)
>>67767912
a movie with a perfect good superman without flaws would have been boring as fuck, same goes for the others
>>67767912
>messing up every single thing
Explain
>>67767978
I don't even know how to respond to this.
>>67767985
If you know anything about comics youd know what that was. Thats another problem with this movie, it loves the source material too much instead of simifying it down
>>67767891
They were stuck on Lex's fingers, cunt-for-brains.
>>67767985
Flash comes back in the past to warn batman (see flashpoint paradox) but he comes way too early
It probably has something to do with parralel universes, time travel stuff-Deja vu stuff.
This did in fact happen but not yet. We'll probably see this scene from the flash's perspective in a justice league movie or the flash's movie
>>67767985
It was the Flash doing time travel shit
>>67767891
Now I'm liking the movie a lot better, this was that one reason I hated it before, thanks, senpai!
>>67767801
Everything you listed was the problem with that film. It was impeccably structured. To create true art you have to lose control in a rigorous endeavor. Perfection is allowing yourself to surprise emotionally visually and it also must have a artistic viewpoint this film was meticulously crafted in every way which is why its not perfect. Perfection must be flawed
>>67768066
>>67768085
if they explained that the flash could time travel, that would have made more sense. But from what we learned about him in this movie, he can only go real fast. Even so, why does Batman act like it's a dream and he wakes up after this? Sorry I don't read comics, so I am not aware of these things.
>>67767985
Most likely a vision given to him by Flash. There's no way he can know about Darkseid or para demons by himself. It's most likely an alternate earth where Lois Lane died.
It's a shitty part of the movie that could have been cut. I thought the Knightmare sequence was excellent but it had nothing to do with the current plot and just made it come to a halt.
Plot hole film criticism is a byproduct of the video game playing generation finally encountering intricate stories
They want to 'play' as the character. Wait a minute, how come I didnt get to play as Bruce Wayne returning to Gotham after rising from the hole? How come Superman didnt laser Batman instantly, that's what I would do if I was playing as him. When these people encounter story focused films instead of audience focused films their brains cannot process it. They want to mash the button for Hulk to save falling Iron Man! Yes he (I) did it!
>>67767966
There's nothing complex about it. It's hack and rips out the best set pieces from years of great stories. It's the DCuck that should be pissed.
>>67768182
Bullshit.
Who wants to be the contrarians praising this shitty bomb of a movie are the same faggots who think the star wars prequels are great and better than TFA?
I bet they're the fucking same faggots
>>67768138
>he can only go real fast
Isn't theoritical time travel possible by going real fast?
>>67767801
>Not muh superman/batman
This is literally the worst argument I see for these films.
>Bawww I am tired of the same capeshit over and over again
>Director changes it up with a fresh take on characters
>NOT MUH COMICS!!!!!! WHY DID YOU CHANGE IT!!!! REEEEEEEE
>>67768237
yea, but only into the future. the closer you get to the speed of light, the slower time goes. So what is one minute to you can be one day/month/year to everyone else.
>>67768138
You should watch the "flashpoint" paradox movie. It's pretty good and there's actually a REAL war in it. About an hour long i think? (more or less)
They simply wanted to cram as much material as they could in the movie in order to set up the following movies.
Just like we saw superman's fight from batman's perspective in this movie, we'll see the time-travel thing from the flash's perspective in a following movie
Like said before, it's like a deja-vu thing with parralel worlds and time ,he saw it in his dreams but he doesn't know wtf it was,he will most likely forget about it until it happens for real
Deja-vu stuff
>>67767801
>if you think the movie jumps around too much, you might need to start eating half a grapefruit every morning or something.
what did he mean by this?
>>67768048
Lmfao no shit retard I'm takling about the stupid fucks who say he shoulda used zod's body. You're the cunt-for-brains who didn't connect that no wonder you probably hated the movie with your pea brain
>>67767985
It contains easter eggs for comic fans, it sets up something that will pay off in another film.
But most importantly it gives a glimpse into the mind of batman. As far as most people know it's just a dream showing Batmans fears and what he thinks the future will be if Superman isn't stopped.
It's like a worst case scenario created in Batmans mind of Superman going crazy and taking over.
It fits the rest of the film because it gives one more reason for why Batman thinks he needs to stop Superman. It's his paranoia fuelled fever dream.
>Kill Batman and save his mother
He doesn't want to kill Batman because Batman is just a man. And Superman doesn't want to be that kind of person.
I guess I can respect your opinion.
- Frank Ribery
>>67768286
she's a big girl
>>67767801
>Every scene succeeds in getting across what its trying to get across
it was executed poorly, that's the problem. it's the technical aspect where Snyder failed.
>>67768505
that wasn't very nice. She is tough, though.
- Frank Ribery
>>67768573
>>67768456
is this some meme that I haven't been informed of
>>67768608
why is everything a meme with you guys? it's part of the game, yo.
all part of the game
- Frank Ribery
>>67768182
in a weird way i think the movie addresses the individual even more through it's use of archetypes. elsewhere i've said that perception of the movie could signal and identification with one of the three main characters bruce,lex,clark
lex having the most references to this very site
>>67767801
Great post OP. Here's a great thread with a very interesting in depth discussion you might be interested in reading.
>>67754364
>>67767801
martha?
>>67768182
They're essentially power fantasies.
>>67768182
>critical analysis began with the video game gen
nice one, mate.
>>67768974
He never said that.
i'm glad you enjoyed it, OP. someone had to.
- Frank Ribery
>>67767801
great editing like cutting to wonder women checking her email before the BvS battle.
>>67769004
You fucking nailed your performance Jesse.
>>67769030
It was intentional.
>>67769004
>the 29%
kek
- Frank Ribery
>>67767801
This shit was dumber than average harem anime.
How fucking retarded or immature must one be to defend this trash?
It was a good movie.
>>67769229
This post was dumber than average harem anime.
How fucking retarded or immature must one be to defend this trash?
>>67769140
Ben Affleck?
>>67767801
>Lex enters the ship
>Kryptonian security droid sees that and does nothing
>then central computer talks in english for no reason
>gives command to random dude for no reason
>Okay, let's create the forbidden abomination!
>But sir, it's forbidden.
>So what?
>Okay, let's make one.
And Lex was mad at Superman for being like a god but then makes a thing far worse than Superman and unleashes it on the world with no means to control it. What?
How the fuck can anyone defend this shit?
>>67769229
OP here. Give explanations. Dont just say its so bad why do people like this shit. That is 90% of the criticism i see for this movie.
No one really understands why they don't like the film.
Everyone is just regurgitating other established opinions.
No one has mentioned the script falling apart in the second half of the movie.
No one talks about the symbolism in certain shots.
No one talks about the opening Batman scene.
>>67767985
>eg why would superman hesitate to use his laser eyes to kill batman and save his mother?
Because he's not a killer, and thought he could work out something with Batman to save Martha (which is what happened)
>>67769423
>No one has mentioned the script falling apart in the second half of the movie.
how does it fall apart?
>>67767912
>denile
>>67767801
>eating half a grapefruit every morning
is this good advice?
>>67768412
It wasn't just an easter egg, it was a massive jarring sequence that made no sense to adults who don't read picture books for children,
>>67769468
maybe he's just senile
>>67769474
>made no sense to adults who don't read picture books for children
I have never read a comic book in my life and I understood it.
>>67769307
OP here.
Nothing says that humans arent allowed on a scout ship.
Kryptonians speak English already or the system has detected English being spoken by the scientists in the past two years or connected to the internet at some point in the past two years. Not hard to imagine.
The council is dead. They are the ones that made the system say it is forbidden. The system clearly doesnt have to listen to them anymore. Lex also assumed full control when he got there.
Last, but not least, the ship was at 37% efficiency or whatever the number was. That explains any fuckery being a malfunction.
Lex was also crazy at that point.
>>67769501
Sorry. At that point meaning when he released doomsday. I also believe he thought he could control it.
>>67769501
I don't know how people can't grasp this. The fucking ship said "do you want to assume full conmand?" And Lex says YES. So obviously he can do whatever the fuck he wants.
>>67767801
>It's not the movies fault it's bad it's everybody else
>>67769423
Wow, dude, you're so much smarter than EVERYONE.
Lots of people have articulated why they don't like the movie, many times over since the movie was released, but because some opinions are shared, your hipster contrarian mind can't accept that people might actually believe in the things they say.
>Asgard the alien planet
>they speak fucking English
>Marvel cunts say nothing
Nuff said?
>>67769307
>>then central computer talks in english for no reason
Gee, I wonder why.
>Okay, let's create the forbidden abomination!
>But sir, it's forbidden.
>So what?
>Okay, let's make one.
Because Lex has command over the ship now...the droid can only advise at most.
>And Lex was mad at Superman for being like a god but then makes a thing far worse than Superman and unleashes it on the world with no means to control it. What?
So you're telling me Lex is a flawed individual who either didn't realize, or didn't care about the consequences of his actions? NO WAY ANON!
>>67769453
It's like they wrote two different movies.
It's as if the second half was the remnants of some script from 2007 that the worked in.
Lex became an idiot, Batman and Superman didn't really need to fight in the end, Doomsday was shoehorned in for Avengers-effect.
I can't even comprehend it. At least I got to see Batman throw a crate at some guy.
>>67768138
Batman is supposed to be as confused at the viewer
It's not like people are confused during after credit teasers in marvel
WHO IS CABLE!!??REEEEEEE
>>67769568
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
>>67767912
>that pic
She obviously dropped the spear because she knew it could kill Supes, and of course she didn't want that. So she tried to rid of the spear for safety in case Batman changed his mind later on, or so nobody else could get it.
Doomsday hadn't even shown up by then, how the fuck was she supposed to know
How the fuck can people not get this, it's fucking obvious
>>67769584
The point is that the system is broken.
>>67769501
>Nothing says that humans arent allowed on a scout ship.
except for when in mos lois lane was attacked by some security robot.
>that explains any fuckery being a malfunction.
well thank god that that everything works for the doomsday creation and stuff
>>67769645
Because muh 29 apparently overrides their basic thought processes.
>>67769663
Which system? The anonymous imageboard sharing opinions system?
>>67769474
>dream sequences have never happened In a film before
>>67769645
How did she know to get it back then?
>>67769645
>people being stupid
>they just have to defend their stupidity
>>67769552
And why the fuck would the ship allow a random dude who is obviously not from Krypton take command? You are telling me it had 0 security of any kind?
When Lois entered the ship in MoS it tried to kill her.
>>67769589
It makes little sense, but that's how they have it in the comics. Also the Thor movies are notoriously bad
>>67769709
The current film appraisal system accepted blindly by the masses.
nypost.com/2016/03/30/batman-v-superman-is-too-smart-for-marvel-fans/
>>67769716
It is a plot hole.
>>67769613
>Batman and Superman didn't really need to fight in the end
>The goddamn title is Batman VS Superman
>They didn't have to fight
And even besides the hype for the movie, Batman had to fight Superman, because he felt he was a menace. This would be obvious if you paid attention to the 1st half of the movie.
>BUT WHY DIDN'T SUPES JUST KILL BATFAG IMMEDIATELY WITH LAZERSZZZZ!
>>67769442
>>67769584
Not to say that they're dislikes are warranted, it's more that people are missing out on the bigger problems of the film.
They're nitpicking at stupid shit while praising the fistfight between Batman and Capeman.
They're just not getting it. I'm upset. I'M UPSET AT SUPERHERO MOVIES
>>67767801
That fucking homoerotic picture
>i made this do you like it?
>you didn't need to get dressed up for me
>i wanted to
>why
>your a big guy
>for (puts hand on batman's chest) you
>batman grapples upside down and they both reenact the Spiderman kissing scene
Bruce has that Manbat dream sequence.
Without any knowledge of DC continuity why would anyone then find Bruce having a nightmare of an evil Superman difficult to follow?
>>67769762
>Batman had to fight Superman
yes but superman had no reason to fight batman
yeah yes mother was kidnapped so what just fly superfast and save her goddamn it.
>>67769716
Because she has the intuition that this thing is Kryptonian too. Also it's a recurring theme in MoS and BvS that they have a deep emotional and spiritual connection. That's why she's always there to help him and viceversa. This will be one of the central themes in JL
>Lois is the key.
Their connection is practically psychic in nature. They represent the marriage of the Sky and Earth.
>>67769711
Weirdly specific lengthy non-surreal dream sequence from a non-clairvoyant character wherein plot points are disclosed is not clumsy or jarring at all.
>>67769742
Do you realize how far up your own ass you are?
Please tell me how a wide variety of opinions and critiques, all with varying degrees of validity, is encompassed by your flawed film appraisal system? Your assertion that everyone else is a sheep and doesn't REALLY know how to critique the movie is hilarious when I think an overwhelming majority of people I've talked to think the back half of the movie is fucking garbage full stop. Even the people who barely watch movies think the back half is overwhelmingly stupid.
Does that mean you are also buying into this flawed system?
>>67767801
>Editing.
No. Simply wrong.
The scene where they find the CIA operative is idiotic. Right before shooting him they cut away from Lois' reaction, we get absolutely no horror or disgust. Its an emotional flat line despite alluding to a graphic death. Part of this is also the fact that he gets all of 2-3 lines before being shot. Not effective at all.
>The bathtub.
They go into shot reverse shot singles where you can only ever see one of them at a time. Not only are both Clarks and Lois' acting unconvincing -in part due to their lack of on-screen presence in this movie or MoS- but the shots PHYSICALLY put them at a distance. Rather than succeeding in making this an intimate scene they have they super close ups of each person's reaction rather than bringing them together.
>motivation:
What is Lois' motivation for finding Supes and Batman? She wasn't privy to the conversation Lex had so she just had to conveniently GUESS where superman went, why, get there in time, and find the exact spot that he was. This is ALL in the context of her having first seen the footage of the alien space ships weird activity, so the audience is MEANT to or SHOULD associate her actions with investigating that, not information she doesn't have access to.
>Lex's motivation
Ok, he wants superman to kill batman so he looks like a bad guy? Or to get rid of batman because he stole the kryptonite? But what's his plan for dealing with him afterwards? He has no kryptonite of his own, and even if superman killed batman he'd just come back for revenge. Was doomsday the plan? Then how does he plan to deal with doomsday? His entire spiel has been about power and hating god, why would he make a new god-like monster? Why woudn't he empower himself like batman does, and like he does in the movies?
>the JL tie in
RIGHT before the climactic fight with BvS we get a JUST-league tie in? Totally kills the tension
>WW cutaways
Why is WW boarding a plane? She saw the ship's activity and knew abtLex
>>67769474
>made no sense
Read what I said. It's a nightmare vision of the future based on Batmans paranoia of what Superman could do.
That's all you need to know.
It's just more fuel for Batmans vendetta against Superman. He has to stop him before his dream of the future comes true.
>>67769791
>missing out on the bigger problems of the film.
Provide examples.
Saw it yesterday. I thought it was great.
>>67769738
Obviously. It's a convention for almost all fantasy. Pointing it out for Kryptonians is bullshit, is the point unless you also hate on Marvel for using this convention.
>>67769809
>yeah yes mother was kidnapped so what just fly superfast and save her goddamn it.
Because flamethrower
>>67769762
The title is just a marketing gimmick.
It should've just been called Dawn of Justice.
The fight was a mess.
Batman had nothing to gain.
Superman had nothing to gain, tried to reason for about 2 seconds.
>Kidnap
>Martha
Lex's reasoning for the fight was what exactly?
The whole fight felt cruel and pointless and I felt nothing for either character.
>>67769809
that's just your power fantasy speaking
>>67769816
Is it hard to eat with Snyder's cock shoved so far down your throat?
You filling in giant, gaping plot holes with your own reasoning doesn't mean that Snyder ever intended any of it. It's a fucking mess of a movie.
>>67769854
Dreams don't work like that. You don't have detail-specific clairvoyant visions. If it had been more like the bat sequence from the beginning it would have been more passable (or even the stripping-nuke dream from Watchmen), but why would Batman have any reason to dream of the flying monsters or omega symbol?
Also, there is no reason why this had to be conveyed in a dream when the point has already been hammered into you by the dialogue. It adds nothing from a plot perspective, because you already know Batman thinks that Superman could turn evil and take over the world.
>>67769816
>Also it's a recurring theme in MoS and BvS that they have a deep emotional and spiritual connection.
I'm one of the people defending BvS in this thread, but this is one thing I seriously don't like about MoS and BvS. Without comics, there is 0 reason for these people to be in love.
>>67769944
>Dreams don't work like that.
That's because it's a prophetic vision, possibly triggered by El Flasho barging in with Speed Force.
>>67769716
Doomsday showed out of fucking nowhere and started fucking shit up with super powers. Last time that happened the people doing it were kryptonians, so she assumed he was one too and realized the spear could help.
After all the shit that happened, people had enough reason to assume Super Powers = Kryptonian. Didn't Batman assume Wonder Woman was one too?
>>67767801
i think we would have all enjoyed it more if they hadn't showed us literally all the best scenes in Trailers/TV Spots
>>67769762
They should have given a more believable reason for Superman to fight Batman. When they kidnap his mother, he comes with the intention to talk to Batman; to convince him to help save his mother. He only tries twice though. He flies down and says something like, "Please, you're being manipulated," before he triggers the sound traps. Then he destroys the sound traps and says, "You don't understand." At this point, Batman walks directly into his face, the shot in the OP, and says, "I UNDERSTAND!" So Superman shoves him like 100 feet away. Then Superman stands there silently.
He doesn't try to say anything more to Batman to get him to help. Superman actually goes on the offensive, beating the shit out of Batman. He grabs him, and then flies him through a building and slams him across the roof. Again, no words to try and convince him to help, only "Stay down! If I wanted it, you'd already be dead." Instead of pounding on Batman every time he falls down, why doesn't he try talking?
Literally the line, "Please, Lex has my mother," would have defused the situation according to the movie as is.
>>67769944
Now you are just talking crap. "Dreams don't work like that." Fuck off, mate, it's a film.
>>67770008
Which is pointless shilling for their cinematic universe, and jarring for people who don't read the comics.
>>67768041
Good one
Just give up. BvS is shit
>>67769937
That doesn't apply. I didn't say you were wrong because everyone else says you are. I even implied that you were right, along with everyone else.
If you're going to link to logical fallacies, at least know what they mean. Referencing a shared opinion is not asserting that groupthink is correct.
>>67770008
...but you don't need to know this for the scene to work. At a basic level it can be taken as a terrifying nightmare.
>>67770006
Except there is, the first time they meet in MoS there's this instant attraction between them, rewatch the scene. It's just like love, you can't contain it or explain it.
When he's in despair for having been forced to kill Zod, the last remaining Kryptonian besides him, he's torn apart, and she instantly intervenes and calms him.
>>67769892
>It should've just been called Dawn of Justice.
Why? Even before the fight, it really was Batman vs Superman. Batman felt uneasy about him and was trying to get Kryptonium, and there was also the car scene and that tense conversation between Kent and Wayne.
>Batman had nothing to gain.
Except the death of someone who he perceived as an enemy, and would gain a sense of security.
>Lex's reasoning for the fight was what exactly?
He's a guy with his head in the clouds. Didn't you pay attention to the dialogue at the scene where he forced Superman to do it? The whole "god vs man", "day vs night" thing.
>>67770029
I disagree, I think that is one of the faults in the movie.
The final boss of the film brings in Doomsday and Wonder Woman, and it's clearly meant to be a "hype" moment.
It's meant to rival the wit and hype of the big Marvel movies.
You can see it in reactions at cinema recordings where everyone is wooing Wonder Woman and whatnot.
But that's not what this movie is. At all.
The first half was so clever even though admittedly very dour.
It was disappointing because you knew some execs where behind the whole final scene.
>>67770097
I know, it works well both ways, and is meant to be seen that way.
>>67769854
>nightmare
Except it has demons in it...? Why would he include things he has no knowledge of?
>nightmare
Except it has Superman soldiers in it? Sure, that'd make sense of Batman bought the set-up story, but isn't he supposed to be smart enough to notice the discrepancy in that? Why would superman have soldiers?
Maybe instead of showing Batman's actual action during MoS they could have used that footage in a dream to show both what he did, and how it gave him nightmares. Wouldn't that have been more grounded and effective?
And we have no way of knowing that Batman sees these dreams as "visions" of the future. As an audience we can make sense of why what is in there is in there, but the Batman of BvS doesn't seem to have any knowledge of "metahumans" or of Darkseid, why would he have visions of these things?
It'd only take a single line of dialogue to explain that it's been a trend of his, but I think that Warner knew how stupid it would sound to say "more visions" or something like that from fucking batman's mouth.
>>67770008
Great, so the flash can perform inception with the speedforce. Doesn't sound contrived or confusing at all.
>>67770059
>It was supposed to be jarring and awful. It's just a movie.
People who like BvS confirmed for battered wives?
>>67770157
Shitty bait now mate
>>67770032
Because Superman is impuslive. And your own point even brings nuance to the movie.
Batman says that Superman is reckless, and destroys everything. Well, just like you said he only tries diplomacy for like 2 seconds before going hulk.
>>67770175
Shittest bait ever.
>>67770098
Nah, I don't think so. Obviously, events occured between MoS and BvS that made their love stronger. But since we didn't see any of that, it's jarring and weird.
>>67770097
>>67770137
many things in the movie work in multiple ways
>>67770231
Just shut the fuck up now, trollboy. You've run out of shit bait.
Nobody could be this retarded unless it was bait.
>>67770123
>You can see it in reactions at cinema recordings where everyone is wooing Wonder Woman and whatnot.
Can I get a link to one of these videos?
>The first half was so clever even though admittedly very dour.
>It was disappointing because you knew some execs where behind the whole final scene.
Yeah, now that you say it, I heavily agree. They crammed in Wonder Woman to get ready for the next iteration of Justice League movies.
>>67770157
"It'd only take a single line of dialogue to explain that it's been a trend of his"
The weird thing is that they do. Almost all of the Batman-Alfred conversations are him laying out why he's worried about Superman. The dream sequence adds nothing on that point.
I assume the future-dream sequence was basically a giant audience test for how a Justice League movie in an expanded DCU would be received.
>>67770118
I don't know, it just didn't feel right.
Batman should've been shown doing extensive investigation on Superman and Krypton, maybe he finds extraterrestrial threat somewhere along the line.
Killing Superman accomplishes nothing in the context of the series of movies to follow, or in this an Man of Steel alone.
Head canon Batman would just have a backup plan, that's all.
>>67770157
That's exactly the way nightmares work, they're symbolic. The soldiers can be interpreted as a manifestation of the fear that Superman might one day become a tyrant. There's no need to be aware of the Speed Force shit, even though some people will get the reference. Maybe it was both, Flash's influence and he was genuinely having a nightmare, maybe it was neither, the point is that exploring Batman's nightmares gives you an idea of his current frame of mind, the film doesn't have the obligation to baby-step you every stage of the way, you can make logical assumptions based on observations and support them with evidence if you pay attention.
>>67770118
Don't you think that being insane is a fucking WEAK motivation?
He had no way of accounting for superman AFTER he did what he wanted (i.e. kill batman) and if DD was meant to be that deterrent he had no way of stopping him EITHER. So in the end Lex is basically just destroying the entire world for no reason at all.
It. doesn't. make. sense. "head in the clouds" is just dressing it up. Lex has no real motivation, and so we just assign him the quality of insanity.
I actually liked Eisenberg as the young arrogant Lex but the crazier he got without any actual explanation the worse he got.
>I hate god because my dad beat me, therefore I hate superman because he's sort of like god
>if god is all powerful he is not all good because bad stuff happens
>if god is good then he is not all powerful
Sounds profound right? Well, there's your conclusion right there though. Superman is obviously not anything like a god because he CANT stop bad things from happening.
Therefore Lex shouldn't see him as God and hate him. He LITERALLY just supplied the argument for him not to hate superman. God just writing that made me hate this movie more.
The keystone of a deep or smart movie is that it gets better overtime and rewatches, not worse.
>>67767868
first post fucking best post
>>67770157
>Great, so the flash can perform inception with the speedforce. Doesn't sound contrived or confusing at all.
>he doesn't know about flashpoint
>>67767801
I personally believe that in a few years time this movie will be well recieved. Like Starship troopers was heavily panned because the reviewers didn't understand the satire.
>>67770278
This Batman is clearly different from the others. He's more ruthless.
The other Batmans didn't kill at all, but this one had no problem doing so.
>>67770275
It's not that they crammed in Wonder Woman, she was fine.
It's how they went about showing her off, how they introduced her.
It's at odds with the philosophical tones of the first half of the film.
>>67770204
If you wanted to characterize Superman as a chest puffing, reckless egotist, don't have him try to talk at all because him relentlessly beating the shit out of Batman and him trying diplomacy at all are two diametrically opposed things.
It's not like I even have a problem with Superman fighting after getting gassed and recovering. There's work done to make it believable. Superman has an astonished look on his face and can't believe a normal man can harm him. He's on the receiving end of a beatdown for a bit and him either realizing, "Oh shit, this guy could seriously kill me," or "I can't believe this guy actually fucking hurt me," would lead to a knock down, drag out fight.
But not in the beginning. Not before the gas is used. Not when Superman legitimately wants Batman's help with his mother's life on the line and thinks and acts like he's invincible.
jesus christ the same shit has to get explained over and over and over again
>having questions from a movie is not a fault on the movie
>not picking up every detail and connecting all the dots is not a fault on the movie
>curveballs that fit perfectly within the logic of the movie are not faults
>the movie doing what it wants to do how it wants to do it is not a fault
As one of the people defending the movie in this thread, I gotta admit the actual BvS fight was a bit underwhelming.
During the whole movie both has motives to be mad at each other, and that car scene was fucking great, it really hyped me up to see them figth.
By the time they actually fight, the tension had ended on Superman's side, and only Batman really has a reason to fight him, so it just feels awkward and kills the hype the movie worked so hard to create up to that point.
>Muh flamethrower
That shouldn't mean shit to Superman, especially after that scene right at the start of the movie where he saves Louis in a split second while she's being fucking held by the bad guy.
Flamethrower guy had quite the distance from his mother, there literally was absolutely nothing stopping Superman from just saving her.
I guess you could argue that the tension of having his mother kidnapped made him act impulsive and not think clearly, it makes sense in a way, but still feels forced and underwhelming.
>>67770285
I'm not saying he's insane. I'm saying that he wants to pitch mythical battles between two forces.
It's hard to explain.
>>67770354
Fuck off with the weak bait.
>>67770367
>If you wanted to characterize Superman as a chest puffing, reckless egotist, don't have him try to talk at all because him relentlessly beating the shit out of Batman and him trying diplomacy at all are two diametrically opposed things.
>people can't be nuanced
>>67770402
>That shouldn't mean shit to Superman, especially after that scene right at the start of the movie where he saves Louis in a split second while she's being fucking held by the bad guy.
>Flamethrower guy had quite the distance from his mother, there literally was absolutely nothing stopping Superman from just saving her.
superman saved his mother?
>>67767801
You're trying too hard, bait man. Calm down, exhale and break your face on your desk.
>>67770307
>implying outside knowledge of a comic series should be necessary in a movie
Knowing source material shouldn't be obligatory, it should be something that enriches the experience. You can hardly call a movie "kino" if it demands you read outside shit to even understand it. Movies are supposed to be self-contained.
>>67770454
That's not an argument.
>>67767985
It has to due with the injustice comics. It's flash trying to stop it. Way too early
>>67770501
You don't HAVE to read the comics to get it (I didn't.) People will derive their own interpretation of it, or they'll look into it, or ask friends.
Movies are allowed to have a little bit of mystery to be further explained in future movies.
>>67770504
Pointing out trolling shitposting is not meant to be an argument.
>>67770479
No, but there was nothing stopping him from doing so, is my point.
>>67770402
>As one of the people defending the movie in this thread, I gotta admit the actual BvS fight was a bit underwhelming.
Same here. I honestly liked the scene where Batman went in to save the Martha, more than the fight.
>>67770477
It's a logical and character inconsistency. Handwaving it with "he's nuanced" doesn't change that. It's a transparent inconsistency for the sake of forcing the title card match.
If you want to see it as some deep, thoughtful character work, it's more your problem than mine.
>>67770569
How the hell did my post even sound like bait?
>>67770402
The movie builds up all these big ideals only to have the main characters fight over a kidnapping.
It cuts the tension because it turns into a, "We don't have to do this!"
It's needs to be something like setting of a kryptonite warhead to get rid of Doomsday that will cause heavy casualties.
Batman would be fore it, Superman against.
That way you have both characters filling out their respective roles and views on killing to deal with the larger threat at hand.
The "fight" takes up most of the movie. The physical battle was the final bout.
>>67770438
But that's still an antecedent motivation.
He needs a reason to pitch a battle between "mythic" forces.
Considering his logic here: >>67770285
It can't be because he wants to kill God, since he seemingly already disproved Superman's status as a God.
>>67770640
>It can't be because he wants to kill God, since he seemingly already disproved Superman's status as a God.
No, he pitched the battle because he wants to disprove Superman as a god.
For anyone asking about Lex's motivations, here's a great archived thread that discussed this and many other things in great detail.
>>67755224
>>67769073
>someone can't intentionally make a choice that turns out to be poor
Anon, you're retarded
>>67770613
People flaring up isn't an inconsistency. He already doesn't like Batman very much (from his previous encounters with him), so fighting him after he won't listen to him isn't much of a stretch.
>>67770157
So having dreams with demons in is unrealistic now?
Having a dream where Superman has turned against the world and some people have sided with him as his own personal army is unrealistic?
You can't say "Oh but Batman doesn't know about Darkseid so why would he dream that!!!"
Because to Batman they are just nightmares. WE can read into them more if we have knowledge of the comics. But you don't need that because it works as just a hellish vision of the future dreamt up by a paranoid man.
Is there any reason not to think Lex at minimum thought he had some control over his son?
>>67770669
He already did though, he says something along the lines of:
>If god is good than he is powerless because there is still evil
>if god is all powerful he is not good because there is still evil.
There is clearly still bad in the world i.e. him, the revolutions in africa, etc. So why would he need to "prove" that Superman isn't God by making him kill Batman? Not that this would even make sense because he told him his mom's life was on the line. If he goaded them into it without explicitly telling them it'd have made his point better.
>>67770636
This guy gets it.
Also, see what I wrote here: >>67770118
I guess you could say Wayne and Luther feel powerless? That's what drives them?
>>67770578
i guess the threats lex made mean nothing then
>>67770746
Right, he already sort of disproved it, but he wanted it disproved outside of just logic, but in the real world. Remember when he said something along the lines of "Now the whole world will know".
The world was enamored by Superman, and Lex wanted to dispel that for them even though he already logically disproved it (like you said).
>>67770712
Jesus fucking christ that's such a god damn cop-out you people won't accept any flaws in the movie at all.
Sure its within the "realm" of possibility that Batman would coincidentally dream up the EXACT same demons as Darkseid, and see the EXACT ramifications of his omega-beams/invasion.
But he has absolutely no reason to. Its just fucking retarded. Its just as contrived as if Captain America or some shit had dreams of Thanos despite never having any reason for knowing about him. All he knows is that other beings exist.
But if that happened you'd say its a contrived tie-in / coincidence. Its such a god damn double standard.
The movie is a 6/10 at best. Tries to be 2deep4u but has nothing new to say. Its messages are supposed to be profound, but they're all covered explicitly in voice overs. The characters are hardly even fucking characters, just the means ham-fisted walking metaphors.
Its too bad they fucked up Lex in the second act, I actually like him originally.
>every single character explains their point of view throughout the movie
>somehow them acting in accordance with their views is an inconsistency
>>67770805
gee anon i wonder
>>67770874
All of the bashers fell asleep during the previews.
>>67770856
Not him, but you wouldn't know who Darkseid is without comics. Similarly, you wouldn't know Flashpoint without the comics.
The typical viewer doesn't know either of these, so they'll just assume it's a dream where Batman is paranoid and thinking of a dystopian future. Then, when they watch the Flash moview, it'll click.
>>67770856
>Sure its within the "realm" of possibility that Batman would coincidentally dream up the EXACT same demons as Darkseid, and see the EXACT ramifications of his omega-beams/invasion.
Fuck off retard.
>>67770856
Considering the dream of the future happens when Flash turns up from the future it's pretty safe to assume that this time travelling is what caused Bruce to have that vision.
But you don't need to know it's darkseid, his demons, or an actual vision of the future for the scene to make sense.
That is what I am arguing. The scene works fine as a hellish nightmare of a future where Superman becomes a tyrant, but if you know more about the comic books you will see it as some kind of vision of the future.
The Flash time travelling at that exact point obviously implies that he is the reason for this vision.
>>67770329
are you saying BvS is a satire?
>>67770856
There's no problem with a movie that has a different approach to storytelling. It is merely an attribute and not a quality. The movie has its flaws but its not the lame painfully bad flick everyone says
>>67769851
>The scene where they find the CIA operative is idiotic. Right before shooting him they cut away from Lois' reaction, we get absolutely no horror or disgus
that's because the whole North Africa scene was cut due to it giving the film an R rating
>>67767966
>>67767966
.
What's the point of the whole political discourse of the first half? All that buildup for BOOM, and then a main character is just dead for no reason.
Why did Lex blow up the capital again? Wasn't Junebug going to tear into Superman anyway? Wasn't he going to complain about not having the clearance to build a deterrent against Superman?
It was fine, I don't get it. All the hyperbole is ridiculous.
>>67771265
Maybe he foresaw that his grievances wouldn't be addressed.
>>67771628
Wouldn't it have made more sense for him to complain about Superman, THEN blow up the capitol? Then he could be like, "I told you guys this would happen!"
Since Batman was the main character of the film, why were we supposed to care when Superman died
>>67771654
You have to understand Lex's character to understand why he blew up the Capitol. He does things detrimental to his goals, out of spite (toward the Senator in this case).
>>67771265
He was trying to make Superman break.
Having everyone in a court hearing about how Superman is bad and caused death and injury die while he is unable to save them is just pottery.
>>67771729
This post is dumb for so many reasons.
1. Batman isn't the main character.
2. Superman is another main character, who you're supposed to care about.
[electric cello intensifies]
>>67771749
Uh, except that's not how you write a character
>>67771871
Oh, you're a writer?
>>67771533
they are shitposting/trolling, trying to waste everyone's time defending things the trolls don't actually believe
I don't read comics, is Wonder Woman usually like this (When she's under disguise)?
During all her interactions with Bruce I could have sworn it was Catwoman. Even though I knew WW was in the movie, I failed to realize it was her because she was nothing like what I know of the character.
>>67771778
>batman isnt the main character
>>67771127
>>67771157
Goddamn Disney's board of jews, goddamn them.
>>67772037
Can you tell us what you think was Catwoman behaviour?
Diana wasn't stealing stuff for the money, for example, or even for the thrill.
>>67772037
>I don't read comics, is Wonder Woman usually like this (When she's under disguise)?
Yes
>>67771972
Yes, actually I am. I also work for an esteemed writer in the industry. Nice try though
>>67772187
You must be a fucking idiot if you think anyone believes this.
>>67772187
>lying to someone on a Laotian pottery forum
>>67772096
He's a main character, but not the main character
>>67772245
>>67772264
Why would I care whether you believe it or not?
>>67772287
>movie is literally called BATMAN vs. superman
>>67772117
Sultry, thin socialite attending to high society parties with revealing dress to steal info while half flirting/teasing Bruce?
The WW I'm familiar with is the one from the JL cartoon where she was socially awkward and didn't really understand modern society from what I recall. I remember her even acting in disbelief over the fact modern women wear make up.
And the goofy ICE CREAM Wondie from JL War, I guess.
>>67772142
Weird. I guess the cartoons portray her completely different then. I'd never know she was like this.
>>67772287
he is in a majority of the movie
>>67772114
tbqh i don't think the movie is good, but I don't put it passed Disney to pay off some critics to poorly review it, because they tend to be aggro towards companies that get in on their turf. 29% is abysmal, considering it probably should be at double that.
>>67772392
>Batman vs SUPERMAN
>Superman isn't a main character too.
>>67772469
He didn't say superman isn't a main character, but you said Batman isn't you fucking retard
>>67772469
It's very clear from the title that Batman is the one we're supposed to root for because he's first
>>67772550
no the title literally is saying Batman takes issue with Superman and that he is the aggressor
the v is like a court case where the plaintiff is the first name and the defendant is the second
>>67772518
I'm not even >>67772287
But >>67772392 is implying only Batman is THE main character, and not that Batman AND Superman are the main characters.
>>67772597
Batman is the protagonist and THE main character, Superman is the antagonist
>>67769589
The Thor movies are the worst things current Marvel made.
>>67772679
I disagree. He is the antagonist, he is going after Superman and trying to stop him.
>>67767801
BvS was better than most of MCU all put together
it was truly awesome
sadly /tv/ is kinda filled with neo/tv/,/v/,leddit
>>67767801
I agree OP, people are to retarded to understand the epopee goyer haa wrote
>>67767912
>every scene is filmed expertely
>actors know how to act and carry the movie
>the plot is deep and engaging with emotion and humanity spread around it
>only complaints are that the last hour ended up being a big fight scene
>this automatically makes the movie shit beyong belief
>>67769716
>"Oh no, this thing can kill Superman, who is an alien!"
>"I GIVE YOU YOUR DOOMSDAY" (Bravo Snyder)
>"He seems to be alien, maybe the spear will work on him."
It seems like pretty fucking common sense. It was the one thing that probably could deal damage, it wasn't difficult to figure that out. It's not a plot hole or anything like that. Just think for a second.
>>67769733
>>67769664
Lex is actually a snek. A sneaky sneaky snek.
>>67769868
This shit doesn't matter, explain to me with actual facts why Lex didn't get fucked by the tentacle bots of death from mos?
>>67770937
More like fell asleep in their lives.
I've decided to believe that the vast majority of the people defending this steaming pile of shit are trolling.
Otherwise please remove yourself from the genepool.
>>67775026
>I've decided to believe that the vast majority of the people defending this steaming pile of shit are trolling.
>Otherwise please remove yourself from the genepool.
I've decided to believe that the vast majority of the people shitting on this great film are trolling.
Otherwise please remove yourself from the genepool.
>>67768274
Eventually you go fast enough that you end up where youre going before you leave
>>67768266
>fresh take
>TDKR Batman and Dr. Manhattan Superman, done poorly
>>67775026
How does it feel to have the emotional depth of a brick?
>>67775261
this
>>67767868
correct
>>67776875
lel you need to be a bit more subtle.
>>67768138
The biggest problem with this movie is actually the audience. Fans of comic book movies generally want things spoon fed to them. They don't have patience for ambiguity and thusly the comic movie genre suffers for it. They have to spell every little thing out so that it's perfectly accessible to everyone upon the first viewing.
This is why we (usually) can't have nice things. Snyder gave us a near masterpiece with BvS despite the studios demands and the criticism of man of steel. Can't wait for the directors cut desu.
>ITT: A bunch of 23 year olds who've seen taxi driver once pretend their experts on film.
>>67772187
So how many times a day are you contracted to deep throat Max Landis' cock?
>>67780405
Who's this "taxi driver", what powers does he have?
>>67780347
>The biggest problem with this movie is actually the audience.
Yeah blame the victim. I understand that cognitive dissonance is a tricky feeling to deal with, but BVS was a horseshit movie and audience reaction is a reflection of it. Fans were more than willing to accept the TDK trilogy being everything BVS was trying to desperately to mimic.
>>67780405
>once
Maybe the whole movie only once but the ending ride any times. The line "how much was it?" was very thoughtfully written and therefore whenever I wish to see masterful cinema in the making, I see that scene.
>>67780690
TDK trilogy has almost all fantasy elements removed or reduced, with a very few exceptions.
It's not a true Batman franchise and the other DC superheroes wouldn't fit in to this 'realistic' series in any way.
>>67769342
>Give explanations.
they cant give you any
theyre too inarticulate and moronic and dont actually know anything about film
>>67780690
>cognitive dissonance?
I went into the movie fully expecting to hate it for the reasons specified in my previous post. Comic movies are shallow and obvious in order to appeal to as many people as possible. BvS didn't do that and was artistically successful for it.
>>67780819
>It's not a true Batman franchise
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
>>67780690
>TDK trilogy being everything BVS was trying to desperately to mimic.
this right here shows what a fucking pleb you are
BVS was about as far removed from TDK as it could possibly have been. youve got no clue what you are talking about and are just spewing angry shit because you didnt get the superman boyscout movie you wanted
>>67767985
Those were mostly dreams and one jl setup i guess.
>(eg why would superman hesitate to use his laser eyes to kill batman and save his mother?)
Your inability to understand a character is not a plot hole
Honestly it was solid 8/10 for me but i like god vs man theme and bvs was the first time that i can remember that showed it in such a down-to-earth, applied sense. Here is the guy and he is doing this stuff and these are the reasons why I don't like the guy and what he is doing type of stuff.
The acting and characterisation was really stellar. I don't know if it follows comics nor do I really care, every action from everybody made sense. On that note, every scene (as far as i remember) made sense and was a part of a whole picture: even though story wasn' t engaging at all times "zack the hack" executed it in a way that felt essential for this particular story.
Hated the justice league references, didn't really like the fighting: in Superman it was about gods, essentially forces of nature having their way around town and nobody could do a thing about it. Here it's standart "let's lure him to a location with no people around" bullshit.
The wonder kike didn't really feel as dyel as i expected, but i guess it's mostly due to the way it was shot.
Honestly don't get the hate on this movie, especially by people who don't read comics: it's a solidly executed story (that gets boring at times but i don't understand how you can make this story without it being boring at times) with stellar characters and decent action.
>>67780950
>Comic movies are shallow and obvious in order to appeal to as many people as possible.
They're tentpole franchises that cost hundreds of millions to produce and market. No shit.
>BvS didn't do that and was artistically successful for it.
Ham-fisted imagery and /r/iamverysmart "depth" doesn't inherently make something good. BVS was overwhelmingly shallow and stupidly obvious. Being tryhard and self-important doesn't make something "artistically successful."
>>67781216
>BVS was overwhelmingly shallow and stupidly obvious.
if it was so obvious, could you please tell us what BVS was about and its major themes?
>>67781045
>this right here shows what a fucking pleb you are
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
>youve got no clue what you are talking about and are just spewing angry shit because you didnt get the superman boyscout movie you wanted
Think you're the one spewing angry shit m8. It must hurt being this wildly desperate to defend a dumpster fire.
>>67781306
This should be good.
The criticism keeps switching between
>it made no sense/hard to follow
And
>it was stupidly obvious
Well, which is it?
>>67781306
>if it was so obvious, could you please tell us what BVS was about and its major themes?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignoranceSuperman is Jesus. Batman is Ahab.You're desperate.
>>67781381
at least old /tv/ seems to be not totally gone
>>67781590
>what are the themes
>lists one metaphor
how can someone get more retarded?
>>67781590
Thats what i thought. you dont have any idea what youre talking about.
>Superman is Jesus. Batman is Ahab.
LOOOOL.
>>67781381
yeah they can't remember if it's supposed to be simplistic or too complicated or whether it was slow and boring or rushed.
it's very weak bait and really funny
>>67781357
wrong person m8
although I do agree with anon you are a fucking pleb
>>67781306
>>67781381
Maybe when you graduate high school and take an intro to cinema class in community college you'll be able to understand that a film can be structurally incoherent with character motivations that make no sense, AS WELL AS stupidly obvious 2deep symbolism and allusions.
>>67781635
>at least old /tv/ seems to be not totally gone
Yeah it's been replaced by all these dipshit children desperately shilling disappointing garbage.
>>67781801
redditor ahoy!
>>67781801
>Maybe when you graduate high school and take an intro to cinema class in community college you'll be able to understand that a film can be structurally incoherent with character motivations that make no sense, AS WELL AS stupidly obvious 2deep symbolism and allusions.
so what is the sybolisim and allusions? what is the movie trying to tell us and what are its themes?
you keep throwing out terms you've seen film critics use without knowing what they are or being able to provide explanations and examples
>>67781694
See how I went ahead and called the fallacy you were going to rely on to feel smart about yourself.
>If what you said is true, write an essay about it while I do nothing to support my own argument at all. I want you to argue with yourself, and if you don't I'll say "you don't have any idea what youre talking about." Because that's what works in the arguments I have at the lunch table.
>>67767868
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVhO3JO5F1k
>>67768017
He made one of the best American films of the 90's, The Wedding Singer. As much as you may want to say he sucks, he will always have that, and that's a lot more than most films, most actors, most directors can ever say.
