What do I watch this in /tv/, English or Japanese?
Which is the best experience
thanks
all dubs are shit but it really does seem like Ghibli's are the least shit
In french. They have the best dubs
>>67639670
All dubs are worse than original.
Except for latino Dragon Ball which is the GOAT.
Princess Mononoke dub was probably the better attempts.
Billy Bob Thorton as that monk was always odd as a kid.
Do you speak English, or do you speak Japanese?
>>67639708
>all dubs are shit
check these
>>67639670
Original obviously.
>>67639670
Subs>Dubs always.
Can you read? There's your answer concerning ANY foreign language film.
>reading the bottom of the screen during a Ghibli Movie
>not even watching the movie
English dub if youre an english speaker OP
>>67639708
Honestly Howl's Moving Castle is at least twice as good in english. Everything else I've watched so far in Japanese but that one was strangely reversed in quality.
>>67639670
When dubs are approximately equal in quality to the subs, which they are here, then I watch in the language appropriate to the setting, so in this case Japanese. In the case of something like Howl's Moving Castle, English.
Miyazaki films generally have great dubs, with great actors like Christian Bale and Claire Danes
You are a weeb if you insist on watching it Japanese
>>67639878
>>67640301
As someone who speaks Japanese fluently I can assure you this is not the case.
>>67639708
How shit are these dubs?
>>67639670
either or. You're still going to be pretty lost without some kind of familiarity with japanese folklore and its common themes.
>>67639918
Billy Bob Thornton is one of those actors who's seemed to constantly fly under the radar.
>>67639670
I prefer subs, makes the movie more dreamlike when you can't understand what they're saying
>>67640445
>As someone who speaks Japanese fluently I can assure you this is not the case.
They don't have any good voice actors. Besides, their stories are Japanese so their language works better than English. Even the smaller things like sama and so on can't be translated properly.
>>67640549
Ghibli does plenty of non-eastern settings, which is why this was my reply: >>67640422
I can guarantee anyone who says Japanese voices are "always better" than English ones just haven't been around Japanese enough to recognize when the Japanese actors are bad. and while it's not common, dubs can sometimes hit it out of the park, which is even better than when Japanese ones do because they're not locked into the handful of "styles" that the Japanese stick to religiously.
>>67640491
He's a good actor but he's hard to work with and has probably been passed over for better roles because directors didn't want to bother.
>>67639670
Miyazaki has good dubs.
Some anime have good dubs. Examples: Bebop, Space Dandy, Berserk (fuck you)
>>67640268
>>67640471
learn from the master boys
>>67641040
embarrassing
>>67639670
The best way to go is Japanese and no subtitles, that way you aren't exposed to Miyazaki's awful writing.
>>67640825
>>67640445
do you happen to be dutch living in japan
>>67639670
the english dub is actually pretty good, imo the Japanese Chihiro is pretty flat.
i would go with the English version, just so your eyes can spend 100% of the time looking at the pretty pictures instead of constantly having to look to the bottom of the screen every few seconds.
>>67640486
i think being unfamiliar with jap culture is part of the magic, or was the case when it came out and i was 12
>>67641040
>>67641077
Fucking told.
a simple step by step guide to obtaining dubs:
step 1: check em
>>67640549
Sama can be accounted for with context and inflection
>>67641471
>I find your lack of dubs disturbing
English dub is actually great. I would recommend that. Although of course, you can never go wrong with the original.
>>67639670
The rule of Anime dubbing: If it ain't Bebop, subs it is.
>>67641651
No. The rule of any dubbing. Always watch the original with subtitles.
It's really sad that people on a film board even ask if watching dubbing is okay.
>>67640212
This is the only question you should ask yourself
Otherwise you are reading subtitles and you get nothing from the tone or texture of the voice
>>67641683
The very creator of Cowboy Bebop said he preferred the English Dub to his own Japanese.
>>67641651
FMA and FMA: Brotherhood have some great dubs too. Space Dandy's dub is also good.
Imo, english dubs havent been truly bad since like the early 00s.
>>67641761
Then watch both.
>>67641967
FMA1's dubbing was great, but Brotherhood aged Ed a bit and I don't think they got the same VAs recruited for the reboot
Is it worth it? Solf Kimblee sounds like a heavy smoker from the sample I tried
>>67639670
I watched it in English.
Die weaboos
Spirited Away has a pretty great dub to be fair to it.
Some Ghibli dubs I've found a bit questionable in the casting, (Porco Rosso comes to mind), but every voice actor fits to the character very well in this one.
>>67640339
Fucking this Jesus christ you morons
>>67642070
>but Brotherhood aged Ed a bit and I don't think they got the same VAs recruited for the reboot
Ed has the same VA. Al does not. I am gonna be honest, FMA's Al is better than Brotherhood's. The original had an actual boy voicing Al, and with Brotherhood you can tell it's just some woman VA doing the voicework.. he SOUNDS like a girl.
Besides that, I have no complaints about Brotherhood's dub. And yes, it's worth it. Many people prefer it greatly over the original.
>there are people RIGHT NOW who think dubs aren't good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU3Gg696yrM
>>67642172
Disney seems to do Ghibli movies justice at least. They dont skimp on good actors doing the voices. Hell they got Dubs Man to do the voice of Howl.
>>67641761
I don't always trust what directors/creators say. Miyazaki said that he preferred the French dub of Porco Rosso (I'm French myself), but the nip one was better imo.
>>67642249
I'll give it a shot, anime with as satisfying a conclusion as FMA only happen once in a blue moon and I was looking forward to a rewatch... love those opening/ending credits. Thanks for your feedback anon
The Japanese dub is always better. Except in Cowboy Bebop.
>>67639670
If it's a cartoon there's literally no reason not to use dubs and read subtitles
>>67642621
You are wrong. It's a cartoon created by certain people. People living in a different culture and speaking in a different language. It's all very important.
Watching a Japanese film is in English is like watching John Ford's film in Japanese. You shouldn't do that.
>>67642703
You're a retard
If it's a cartoon then the original language doesn't matter because the original language was dubbed anyway
>>67642738
It's a film made by people from a different culture. It's irrelevant if it's a cartoon or a live action film.
English. The dub is at least as good as the Japanese audio, so it's worth it to not have subtitles disrupting composition.
>>67639670
This film probably has some of the better Ghibli dubs. In general I watch these movies with subs as sometimes the dub translation isn't the best.
>>67639918
Billy Bob was a weird choice, but I actually liked him in that. Mononoke, Spirited Away, Ponyo, and Howl's Moving Castle are the best Ghibli dubs, with Howl being the GOAT.
>No dubs ITT
>>67643202
here you go
>>67643067
Didn't approve of Porco Rosso's?
>>67643841
The other ones are fine, and better than the average dub, but it's only with Mononoke that they started doing really polished ones more or less devoid of the problems associated with anime dubs.
Like I'll watch the Porco or Kiki dub because they're solid and I don't like how subtitles make it impossible for my eye to be fully guided by the image, but stuff like Lauren Bacall as the Witch of the Waste or Suzanne Pleshette as Yubaba make the later dubs actively really pleasurable imo.
Unless you're dyslexic, there is nearly never a reason to watch anime dubbed. The voice acting and script they made for the movie is part of the movie like anything else, why would you remove it?
>>67640441
And if you watch Das Boot in German does that make you a Nazi? Why shouldn't you watch something the way its creators intended?
>>67640825
>I can guarantee anyone who says Japanese voices are "always better" than English ones just haven't been around Japanese enough to recognize when the Japanese actors are bad.
People say something like this all the time, yet never do they actually cite any anime where the voice acting is bad.
>>67642316
Disney butchered Kiki's Delivery Service and I know they added unnecessary extra dialogue to Spirited Away to slightly alter the story.
>>67642738
The script was written in Japanese and then read by the Japanese voice actors that were chosen and directed by the production team.
I liked the german and japanese dubs, and disliked the english one.
>>67639708
>All dubs are shit
Not even close to true. Almost anything where the Japanese actors have to Engrish out phrases every other line is automatically on par with English dubbing for that fact alone.
See s-CRY-ed for proof, where "Shocking First Bullet" is pronounced "Shockingu Fist Burrito" for 26 straight fucking episodes.
>>67645325
>Unless you're dyslexic, there is nearly never a reason to watch anime dubbed.
Unless the English is truly worse than the Japanese, there's no point in not taking that time to take in the visuals rather than read the dialogue, especially in the case of Ghibli movies. And don't give me that "I'm a quick read" shit. Time wasted is time wasted.
>>67645325
I agree with you that you should watch the movie in the original form it was intended at least once, but if youre looking for an example of what that guy is talking about, Golden Boy is known for having terrible Japanese voice acting and, thus, an English dub that is better in every way.
>>67645520
Like I said, the original script and voice acting are part of the work. A member of the production team wrote the script, then the voice actors were cast, and then their performances were directed by the sound director, director and writer.
And then some American company tossed all that away and replaced it with their own stuff.
>>67645644
I watched Golden Boy just weeks ago, and I didn't notice anything unusual about the voice acting.
>>67645325
>The script was written in Japanese and then read by the Japanese voice actors that were chosen and directed by the production team.
You are aware that a translation is still a translation whether it's dubbed or subbed right? And yeah the Japanese voice acting is directed by the production team, significantly NOT the director. The auteurist justification for subs isn't supported in a medium as collaborative as animation.
>>67645520
It's not even that the time is wasted, it's that its disrupted is what the problem is. Subtitles have an inherent distancing effect - I'm watching anime not Brecht get that shit out of here.
>>67645749
Unless the dub is some un-listenable shit, this.
>>67645651
>>And then some American company tossed all that away and replaced it with their own stuff.
That ranges from true to false depending on the movie and should not be assumed, especially for higher budget films like these. Which script came first is arbitrary in light of the quality of each, assuming nothing is lost which I doubt anything has been in the Ghibli translations.
I'm not trying to compare animu to War and Peace here, but translations often leave nothing behind, and can have as good if not better prose than the original.
The lack of dubs in this thread is concerning.
Subs explain a few things a little better. I forget what though lol. It's been a while.
But the dub for this movie isn't bad at all.
You'll like it enough to watch it more than once. So do one then the other.
>noooo you have to watch it in the way they originally intended, only with the focal point moved to the bottom of every frame
garbage argument, all that matters is whether it's good or not
>>67645651
>Like I said, the original script and voice acting are part of the work.
But of course this argument can be leveled against subs too. You're more arguing for learning Japanese than you are for watching subs.
>>67639670
Watch it in Japanese. In the dub, Haku is voiced by Rosh Penin
>anime thread on /tv/
Too scared to post on /a/, huh?
>>67645749
Subtitles are more accurate, and they fully preserve the original dialogue. So depending on your Japanese ability, you can get something out of it. Even knowledge of honorifics adds nuance that a translation can't fully capture.
And the voice acting isn't just about delivering information to the audience, it's also about acting (as the name implies) and what the voices sound like.
Listening to an English dub also distances you from the cultural context of the work.
>And yeah the Japanese voice acting is directed by the production team, significantly NOT the director.
In all the behind the scenes stuff I've seen, the actors are directed by the sound director who takes input from the director and writer. The director can also sometimes serve as the sound director himself.
>>67645864
>That ranges from true to false
No, it's strictly true. What else could it be? They remove the original audio and its script and voice actors and replace them with their own. That's what dubbing is.
>Which script came first is arbitrary in light of the quality of each, assuming nothing is lost which I doubt anything has been in the Ghibli translations.
Kiki's Delivery Service and Spirited Away outright alter the story, and something is always lost when translating from Japanese to English no matter how good the translator is.
>translations often leave nothing behind, and can have as good if not better prose than the original.
I don't want better prose, I want the original prose that the original creators intended, performed by the original voice actors.
>>67646013
It can't be leveled against subs. Subs don't remove or alter the script and voice acting.
>>67646095
Miyazaki's a westaboo, don't tease him for his race
>>67646132
I don't think we're gonna agree here, it's a neurotypical vs. autistic divide. EFFECTIVELY nothing can be lost with a good translation, and you caring more about which came first than which has better prose is just bewildering to me.
Also subs absolutely do alter the script. It's not the goddamn Japanese script you're paying attention to when you read the subs. The result is exactly the same.
>>67641077
>>67641355
>>67646287
Translating Japanese is hard and there is always something lost in the process, any many different ways of translating the same thing.
>you caring more about which came first than which has better prose is just bewildering to me.
What came first was the original script as envisioned by the original production team, and then performed by the voice actors chosen and directed by the original production team.
>Also subs absolutely do alter the script.
Subtitles do not alter the script in any way whatsoever. Have you never even used subtitles? How exactly do you think they work?
>It's not the goddamn Japanese script you're paying attention to when you read the subs.
I have eyes and ears and can use both simultaneously.
>>67646095
Later, masturbator.
>>67646528
You literally said yourself that something is always lost in translation. Subs are just as much translations as any other translation. Are you being intentionally obtuse?
>I have eyes and ears and can use both simultaneously.
And your ears are telling you nothing about the SCRIPT unless you understand Japanese, which brings us back to why you're actually arguing for learning Japanese, not for choosing subs.
>>67646528
>Subtitles do not alter the script in any way whatsoever. Have you never even used subtitles? How exactly do you think they work?
How do you think translating prose works? A purely accurate translation reads like shit
>>67646663
When did I say that subs don't lose anything in translation?
>And your ears are telling you nothing about the SCRIPT unless you understand Japanese
I understand Japanese to varying degrees.
>which brings us back to why you're actually arguing for learning Japanese, not for choosing subs.
When did I "argue for learning Japanese"?
>>67646723
Subtitles are text that appears on the screen and can be turned off by pressing a key. That's all subtitles do. They do nothing whatsoever to the audio track. Thus the original script remains 100% unaltered.
>>67639670
Usually the studio spend alot of money on the japanese voice actors and bring in big and recognized names while the people taking care of the english dub hires shit voice actors. That is not the case for the studio Ghibli films, howl was voiced by Christian Bale for example in the english version. I would reccomend you to watch Spirited Away in japanese since the story takes place in Japan and it's full of japanese culture and mythology.
>>67641758
>not being able to read subtitles AND appreciate the movie overall
>>67646790
>When did I say that subs don't lose anything in translation?
You implied such when you disagreed that the same criticism can't be leveled against subs, which it can, because subs are translations just as much as anything else.
>I understand Japanese to varying degrees.
Good for you, but irrelevant. the discussion is about whether any given person should watch dubs or subs, no Japanese understanding assumed.
>When did I "argue for learning Japanese"?
By arguing that only the original script is the only thing that matters, which is only accessible by actually understanding Japanese.
>>67646790
You're consuming the script through the subtitles though, not the audio track. That's the whole reason you put the subtitles on.
You're arguing for prioritizing honoring the artist's intent over your own experience, and then you're failing to recognize the severe ways subtitles fuck with the artists intent re: the script and image composition.
>>67639670
This thread is stupid
If you don't mind subtitles, do subs. If you'd prefer to just listen, do dub. You can even try both and watch a bit then decide which one you'd rather watch.
>>67646845
Ghibli actually likes to use film/TV actors, not professional voice actors, and this often occurs in other movies too. For The Wind Rises they even used a non-actor for the lead role.
>>67646966
Again, subtitles don't do anything to alter the original script. Nothing whatsoever.
>the discussion is about whether any given person should watch dubs or subs
And the answer is they should watch with subs.
>By arguing that only the original script is the only thing that matters, which is only accessible by actually understanding Japanese.
Subtitles translate the original script as best as they can, while preserving the script (whether or not you can understand it) and the voice acting.
>>67647010
The script remains unaltered. I don't know why this is so difficult for you dubfriends to understand. At least try using subs for once in your life.
>You're arguing for prioritizing honoring the artist's intent over your own experience
But the experience I want to have is experiencing the movie as faithfully as I can.
>and then you're failing to recognize the severe ways subtitles fuck with the artists intent re: the script and image composition.
Again, subs don't do anything to the script. They also have no effect on image composition, whatever that is supposed to mean.
>>67639670
The Disney dub for this isn't actually all that bad.
>>67646868
the more you multitask the less you're able to appreciate a movie. like, when I'm on my phone and watching something I get what's happening and can still be impacted by the movie but that doesn't mean the experience isn't more muddled.
subtitles aren't severe enough that they keep you from appreciating things, but they are a complication (one unplanned for by the director outside of a few movies like Slumdog Millionaire) and thus an element that makes it a little harder for the movie to hit you directly and intuitively.
If the english dub is qualitatively equal to the original, then you're removing the alienating effect.
>>67639670
Why would you watch this garbage instead of Monster Musume? That shit is pure kino.
All voice actors are just retards reading off a page in the end. Watch whatever language you understand its that simple.
English. There's no fucking reason to listen to the Japanese audio if you can't understand Japanese.
>>67647191
>If the english dub is qualitatively equal to the original...
It isn't.
>>67647251
They are actors performing lines under the direction of the production team. And there's a lot of voice actors I like listening to just because of what they sound like.
>>67647275
Said no film critic ever.
>>67647152
Holy shit yes they do change the script, when you translate something you make minor changes to ensure that the prose still functions. A translator is judged not by their accuracy but by their ability to bring the work's linguistic strengths from one language to another. If they don't do this, then it's a bad translation that is only concerned with the script as pure information.
And they effect image composition because they're a part of the image. Subtitles are visual cues superimposed onto the original image, thus changing the composition.
>>67647315
>cartoon
>film
>>67647152
>Subtitles translate the original script as best as they can, while preserving the script (whether or not you can understand it) and the voice acting.
Oh for fucks sake.
1. Subtitle translators can make mistakes or cut corners just the same as any other translation process.
2. You're not taking in the script if you don't understand Japanese. You're just hearing what it "sounds like", which is a ridiculous and autistic argument.
3. Voice acting literally comes down to who does a better job, not who did it first.
The mistake you're making is pretending your pedantic, neurotic preferences are logical arguments.
>>67647321
Subtitles are lines of text that are overlaid on the screen. They can be turned on and off at the push of a button. They do not alter the audio in any way whatsoever. They are completely separate from it. This should be common sense even if you've never watched anything with subtitles.
>when you translate something you make minor changes to ensure that the prose still functions
I already said several times that things are lost in translation so obviously I am aware that changes occur. Why are you telling me this?
>And they effect image composition because they're a part of the image.
They're just small lines of text, not giant text boxes or whatever you're imagining they're like.
>>67647337
I didn't say anything about cartoons. Did you mean to reply to some other post?
>>67647337
You retarded or something?
>>67647321
I think that other anon is recognizing script and subtitles as two different things. Script is what's given to the VA's in Japanese to read and subtitles are the translations WE make. Subtitles don't change the script since the script takes the form of the audio that subtitles interpret and translate.
>>67647397
>1. Subtitle translators can make mistakes or cut corners just the same as any other translation process.
I never said or implied otherwise, and if they make mistakes you still have the ability to catch them provided that you know enough Japanese.
>2. You're not taking in the script if you don't understand Japanese. You're just hearing what it "sounds like", which is a ridiculous and autistic argument.
Once again: the script remains unaltered. Subtitles do not work the way you think they do. They don't change anything.
>3. Voice acting literally comes down to who does a better job, not who did it first.
Japanese and English are two entirely different languages with different voice acting styles, and there is such a thing as authorial intent. The original voice actors were selected and directed by the original production team. In the case of TV anime there is also the whole voice actor industry/scene, and people like listening to their favorite actors and hearing new ones.
>The mistake you're making is pretending your pedantic, neurotic preferences are logical arguments.
I've made no pedantic or neurotic arguments.
>>67647452
You keep bringing up how you can turn subtitles on and off like the discussion is "dubs or subtitles that you turn off now and then"
none of us are going to fucking do that you overly literal autist it's one or the other
>>67647654
>You keep bringing up how you can turn subtitles on and off
Yes, that is SURELY the entire point I'm making. Well done.
I choose sub.
-Not everything is available with dub.
-Dubs vary considerably in quality while original VA is usually good
-It's better to watch stuff in the original language.
-Dub feels odd and immersion-breaking.
-Dub sounds faggy because white people are fags.
-I watch all kind of things with all kinds of languages so I can't depend on dubbing. Since I eventually have to rely on subs, I can't afford to develop subs-o-phobia
>defending dubs
Jesus, this board is terrible.
>>67639670
English dub is better. Source: I watched both versions.
>>67647756
Go back jerking to ur gook cartoons weebscum
>>67647680
What point are you making with your dumb "YOU CAN TURN SUBTITLES OFF" thing you keep going back to?
And yes, subtitles are small lines of dialogue and not overly visually intrusive, but because reading them is essential to the viewer it's still a major change of which visual information you choose to focus on.
>>67647633
>provided that you know enough Japanese.
Which, for the second time, is not an assumption in this argument.
>Once again: the script remains unaltered.
Yeah dude, we get it. But it's irrelevant. Hearing what the original script sounds like doesn't fucking matter if you don't know what they're saying.
>The original voice actors were selected and directed by the original production team.
And they were restricted by language and geography in their choice. Production teams, like in the case of Cowboy Bebop, have come out and explicitly admitted when non-Japanese voice actors have done a better job. Not even those production teams think they've found the "best" actors for the job.
>I've made no pedantic or neurotic arguments.
Indeed you haven't, but you've stated pedantic and neurotic preferences, giving more preference for the source material than is artistically or critically justified.
>>67647800
I'm not a weeb. Dubbing is always a terrible option.
>>67647935
One of the defining hallmarks of being a weeaboo is that very opinion.
>>67647935
>I'm a Honda Civic but I'm not a car
>>67647837
>Hearing what the original script sounds like doesn't fucking matter if you don't know what they're saying.
This is wrong.
>And they were restricted by language and geography in their choice.
But that's a good thing.
>have come out and explicitly admitted when non-Japanese voice actors have done a better job.
That's because he wanted to make a very Western series. However Cowboy Bebop is not a Western series. It's clearly a show made by the Japanese inspired by Western fiction.
>>67647948
Anyone who watches a lot of foreign films will agree with me. Watching a Japanese film with English voices is a horrible way to experience a film.
It kills the cultural aspect of it and sounds terrible.
>>67648008
>This is wrong.
>But that's a good thing.
>not even attempting to make arguments anymore
>That's because he wanted to make a very Western series. However Cowboy Bebop is not a Western series. It's clearly a show made by the Japanese inspired by Western fiction.
Evasionary and false assumptions that don't even mesh with your arguments for the ultimacy of original content.
I'm done with you.
>>67648142
I'm not the guy you are arguing with.
It seems like you treat film like simple entertainment, not an artform.
>>67648092
The cultural aspect of something like Howl's Moving Castle isn't Japanese. It's Japanese aspects trying and more or less failing to portray white people in a European setting. Try again.
>>67647808
Why are you so obsessed with me mentioning as a minor point that they can be turned on and off? I was just describing how subtitles work since people here are not familiar with them.
People who've grown up in countries where subtitles are the norm can read them much better than people who are unaccustomed to subtitles. And I don't see film critics and buffs complaining about subtitles; it's always the dubfriends who do that.
>>67647837
>Which, for the second time, is not an assumption in this argument.
Doesn't matter.
>Hearing what the original script sounds like doesn't fucking matter if you don't know what they're saying.
Keyword being "if." Different people have different levels of Japanese knowledge, and the more you watch with subtitles the more Japanese you (eventually) know. The original script is always there, and even knowing honorifics and personal pronouns adds to your understanding.
Even assuming that you don't know a word of Japanese, the original voice acting is still a completely different experience than the dub replacement.
>And they were restricted by language and geography in their choice.
Yes, I'm sure they were just bummed that they couldn't cast Germans as Japanese middle school girls in Kyoto.
Virtually all actor casting is limited by language and geography, and in the vast majority of cases it's irrelevant.
>Production teams, like in the case of Cowboy Bebop, have come out and explicitly admitted when non-Japanese voice actors have done a better job.
Cowboy Bebop's characters are American, the whole show is very strongly influenced by American culture, and it's one of the very few cases where almost everyone is in agreement that the dub is very good. In the vast majority of anime however the characters are Japanese and the setting is Japanese.
>you've stated pedantic and neurotic preferences
I haven't.
>>67648235
Japanese people, rather
>>67648235
It is Japanese.
>It's Japanese aspects trying and more or less failing to portray white people in a European setting.
Exactly. And this is beautiful.
>>67647837
>giving more preference for the source material than is artistically or critically justified
It's normal to prefer to see a movie or show the way it was intended. It's only dubfriends who don't understand that idea.
>>67647948
I don't think you know what weeaboo means.
>>67648235
Howl is a Japanese movie.
>>67648337
You can never make a movie 100% the way you intended. In the case of Cowboy Bebop, the dub actors were closer to Watanabe's vision than the Japanese actors, but he was restricted to Japanese voice actors.
Howl's Moving Castle is a European novel about faux-European characters in a faux-European setting, interpreted by Japanese people. is what you're saying that it's okay when the Japanese do it?
>>67639670
spic dub
>>67639826
this, actually
>English or Japanese?
>+119 replies and 10 images omitted. Click here to view.
>>67648537
Cowboy Bebop is in no way representative of anything.
>is what you're saying that it's okay when the Japanese do it?
What is not supposed to be "okay" here? Is it morally wrong to make stories set in foreign cultures?
>>67641541
Baka, anon senpaitachi sama chan kun.
It's funny how these threads are always about anime and never about for example Italian films starring American actors or terribly dubbed films from Hong Kong.
>>67639670
>reading your moving picture show
If the dub isn't outright atrocious, I usually go with dub because fuck missing half of the shit going on on the screen to read what the dirty Nips are saying to each other.
>>67640334
>Can you read? There's your answer concerning ANY foreign language film.
This doesn't apply to animation, which is dubbed in its "original" language.
>all these people defending dubbing
>>67648854
I don't know what it is about anime that makes a lot of people insist that dubbing is the way to go. Or why it always has to dubbed in the first place, even if it's nowhere near appropriate for children.
If The Wind Rises was remade in live action shot-for-shot, nobody would even entertain the idea of dubbing it.
>>67648879
When people talk about dubbing they don't mean the techical process by which the audio is recorded.
>>67648934
Only one side in this argument is retarded enough to say you should always stick to one or the other. The other isn't saying you should always watch dubbed, just that there's no justification for taking your eyes off the visuals if the ENG actors are just as good and the setting is western, ie. Howl's or Bebop. Since Spirited Away is a Japanese setting, I recommended subs.
>>67648941
There are distinct advantages that animated films have over live action films in terms of dubbing, and its obviously far easier to match dubbing in any language to animated characters speaking than it is to do the same to actual human faces with all the expressions and nuances of movement that lips make when they speak. Thus, animated films have more leeway for foreign dubs.
Its really not that hard of a concept to grasp.
Why do people like these children's movies?
>>67649236
>there's no justification for taking your eyes off the visuals if the ENG actors are just as good and the setting is western, ie. Howl's or Bebop.
There are justifications and they have already been presented here.
>>67649274
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
>>67649408
Spirited Away won Best Picture in Japan and a Golden Bear. It's not a children's movie the same way something by Disney is.
>>67649412
Attempted justifications that don't actually adequately justify you taking your eyes off the visuals, particularly in the case of Ghibli movies.
watch it the way miyazaki originally intendedin a language you understand without text distracting you from the visuals
>>67649502
>Attempted justifications
Justifications, period.
>>67649522
If his movies were nothing but visuals they would not have voice acting in them.
>>67649483
>implying Pinocchio, Fantasia, and Sleeping Beauty aren't great works of art
>>67649562
>Justifications, period.
>my autistic preferences are objectively correct
Stop embarrassing yourself.
>>67639708
Except this one.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxJ4VWoeOzs
>>67649622
Animation intended for children in Japan is more sophisticated than it is in America because of different cultural beliefs about what is and isn't appropriate for children. The overall approaches to animation in America and Japan are completely different as well. American animation is based on cartoon animation, while Japanese animation is based on cinema.
>>67649623
I have no "autistic preferences." It's time to stop lying.
>>67649623
It's objectively correct that you need to watch it with the original script unchanged
subtitles do nothing to alter the product
>inb4 "le looking at the bottom of the screen" meme
You don't HAVE to look at the bottom of the screen you can choose to look at the image and then read the text before returning to the original image. Maybe if you're a literal child this is difficult, but it's the intended experience.
>>67649736
I'm not just using it as a buzzword. Slavish, black-and-white obsession to original content, above artistic- and entertainment-based concerns, is pretty spectrum.
>>67649736
> different cultural beliefs about what is and isn't appropriate for children
is this why totoro had that scene where the dad fucks his kids in a bathtub
>>67649814
>>subtitles do nothing to alter the product
They literally obscure the visuals. I've literally seen them block important things onscreen.
>unironically saying your approach to art/entertainment is objectively correct
Okay, now I'm beginning to suspect b8.
>>67649842
>I'm not just using it as a buzzword.
Yes you are.
>Slavish, black-and-white obsession to original content, above artistic- and entertainment-based concerns, is pretty spectrum.
Just because you, for whatever fucked up reason, find it supremely artistic and entertaining to not watch things as they were intended doesn't mean that I am sacrificing artistry and entertainment by watching things as they were intended.
>>67649954
>They literally obscure the visuals.
You literally have never seen subtitles in your life if you think that's true outside of very rare cases.
>>67649412
I never said whether you should or shouldn't, just explaining to someone who clearly didn't understand why people give more leeway to dubbing animated films in comparison to live action ones. I dont give a fuck what language other people watch movies in. Play it with all the voices on mute and read the script in braille for all I care.
>>67649954
the problem isn't them obscuring visuals (rarely happens) it's just that by turning dialogue into a visual component it overloads the visual information.
>>67650138
I mean just because it's easier to dub doesn't mean you should.
>>67650062
Those rare cases are exactly my point. It's rare but not unheard of that subs block important things on screen. It's rare but not unheard of that the dubs are closer to the "vision" of the creators (b--but Cowboy Bebop doesn't count!). But I'm not the one saying one side is ALWAYS the best. I'm the one saying you should watch dubs when its better and watch subs when it's better. And yes, that is the less autistic standpoint, sorry if that makes you buttflustered.
>>67650138
Not to mention anime in particular, which focuses less on the lip sync than CG animation or even higher end western 2D.
>>67642249
>Many people prefer it greatly over the original.
>people without taste
>>67650200
I can't recall a single case where subtitles have blocked something important and I've been watching things in subtitles my entire life.
>(b--but Cowboy Bebop doesn't count!)
When did I say it doesn't? Why are you making things up?
> I'm the one saying you should watch dubs when its better and watch subs when it's better.
Dubs are almost never better, and you are completely neglecting all the other reasons why subs are superior. It's not just about quality.
>>67650308
You're completely ignoring why it might be better and more engaging to watch a movie in a language you understand
>>67650342
If you are dyslexic, yes.
>>67639670
Like any self-respecting weeaboo dubs make me REEEEEEEEEE but Disney actually did a fantastic job with this one.
>>67649736
>Japanese animation is based on cinema
Japanese animation is based on western animation, get your facts straight.
They went in a completely different direction with it sure, but none of it would exist if it hadn't been for Walt Disney.
I actually speak and understand Japanese, and watching the Howl's Moving Castle character call each other -san and -chan irritated me.
>>67650413
Adding unnecessary dialogue that changes the story, however little, is not what I would call a fantastic job.
>>67650449
Anime is based on manga in the first place, cinema in the second place, and American animation in the distant third place. And what I meant is that anime is cinematic, not cartoonish.
>>67650449
if it hadn't been for Walt Disney, animation would be based in Winsor McCay instead and the world be a better place.
>>67650537
> Anime is based on manga in the first place, cinema in the second place, and American animation in the distant third place
>American animation in the distant third place
this weeb denial
>>67650537
Manga is rooted in Disney too, moron.
>animated movie
>dub
literally retarded
English dubs are always superior to a western-born person because you are used to listening to indo-european languages
>>67639708
More or less. I know a few series that are good, but generally it's better to watch subbed.
Ghibli's subs are alright though. They tend to have good casts, and I hear Miyazaki prefers his movies dubbed so people can enjoy the visual experience. Not sure how the other directors feel, though their movies are often overlooked and I only watch subbed because I'm a filthy weeb, so...
>>67650617
>I hear Miyazaki prefers his movies dubbed
Don't tell Mr. Autist that, he's obsessed with the "intent" of the creators.
>>67650537
And Manga was strongly influenced by american culture during the occupation (read: Disney)
>>67650538
>Winsor McCay
>Little Nemo as original mickey mouse
Shit would've been glorious.
>>67650617
>and I hear Miyazaki prefers his movies dubbed
Sounds like bullshit.
>>67650617
I'm not a weeb but I also watch everything subbed. It's just the patrician way.
>>67650769
>I'm not a weeb but I also watch everything subbed
>>67647986
>>67650786
I barely watch anime.
>>67650570
How am I weeb and how am I in denial?
>>67650574
>>67650685
The look of Tezuka's characters was inspired by Disney and/or other American animation, but otherwise manga is nothing like Disney. Disney is not the Alpha and Omega of everything in the universe.
>>67650580
Might as well claim shitting your pants is superior because that's what you do as an infant. Why learn anything new?
>>67650673
There is nothing "autistic" about caring about artistic intent. You, if anyone, is being autistic here.
>>67650786
You don't know what weeb means.
>>67650716
Not him and I'm googling trying to find the original quote, but I do remember Miyazaki saying a couple times that he'd much rather people watch a dub than have to read his movies.
>>67650867
>I'm googling trying to find the original quote
Okay, I'm waiting.
>>67650840
"tezuka's style is inspired by disney, but all the people inspired by tezuka aren't influenced by disney!"
>>67650840
>Disney is not the Alpha and Omega of everything in the universe.
No, but it sure is the root influence of anime and manga.
>>67650840
>learn anything new
learn japanese? or what. Appreciate that ugly language?
to an american ear would a warrior "AARRRGH" sound better than those high-pitched noises japanese make
>>67650933
Read again:
>The look of Tezuka's characters was inspired by Disney and/or other American animation
Or are you saying that because the look of his characters was based on Disney, manga is fundamentally similar to Disney? Well let me know when Disney makes their own version of Akira or Yokohama Shopping Log.
>>67650963
Anime is radically different from Disney. They are polar opposites.
>>67650965
>learn japanese? or what.
Learn to listen to languages other than your own.
>those high-pitched noises japanese make
Well meme'd, friend.
>>67650921
"When you watch the subtitled version you are probably missing just as many things. There is a layer and a nuance you're not going to get."
So he's not decisively saying not to watch the subs, but thats his general perspective. Apparently he's brought this up a few times but it's hard to find exact quotes from a non-english speaker.
>>67651069
>Anime is radically different from Disney. They are polar opposites.
Wrong, soviet animation is MUCH further from Disney than anime is. Anime is deeply indebted to Disney, and despite going after a more adult audience is still mostly the domain of children and otaku. The soviets actively tried to distance themselves from Disney and make animation for a general adult audience.
>>67651069
>Anime is radically different from Disney. They are polar opposites.
You're changing the subject. It's been granted from the beginning they've since diverged. Also calling them "polar opposites" is hysterical and incoherent.
Sub or dub /tv/? Leaning towards dub cause i wanna watch not read
>>67651069
>Or are you saying that because the look of his characters was based on Disney, manga is fundamentally similar to Disney? Well let me know when Disney makes their own version of Akira or Yokohama Shopping Log.
The formational period of anime revolved heavily around Tezuka. He laid the foundations everything would be built off of - and as misguided as the "anime all looks the same" notion is, there is a certain degree more homogeneity because of the way early anime could be a bit slavish towards Tezuka.
I'm talking about the design mind you, not tonal choices, since design is much more comparable throughout the anime industry than the variety of tones. So yeah, Disney may not make something as dark as Akira, but the visual lineage of Akira can be traced very clearly back to Disney.
>>67651233
sub because
1. a bad lip sync in live action is extremely distracting
2. the vocal performances come from the on-screen actors, therefor a single deliberate performance exists in the characters speech, facial expressions, and body language - rather than divided between an animator and voice performer.
>>67651159
I didn't say anything about Soviet Animation.
>Anime is deeply indebted to Disney,
I'm not talking about technology or animation principles.
>despite going after a more adult audience is still mostly the domain of children and otaku
There are anime shows and movies that are watched by "normal" adult audiences, and otaku are adults too. What does this even have to do with what I said?
>>67651186
>You're changing the subject.
I'm not.
>Also calling them "polar opposites" is hysterical and incoherent.
Claiming that what I said is hysterical and incoherent is what's actually hysterical and incoherent here. I said nothing that was wrong.
>>67651330
1963: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnX-0fbXzyA
1967: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amNCTbRJL44
1968: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGl-boEScV8
1969: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XhBdHXTqA
1969: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttndwyst-Xo
1973: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCX77Je16fk
>the visual lineage of Akira can be traced very clearly back to Disney.
No it can't. This is an absurd claim.
>>67650769
You do have a good argument there. I wouldn't watch a French film dubbed in English, that's for goddamn sure.
Though my reason is the same for watching anime in Japanese. I want to learn the languages.
>>67651440
> the vocal performances come from the on-screen actors, therefor a single deliberate performance exists in the characters speech, facial expressions, and body language - rather than divided between an animator and voice performer.
This is the big difference between animation and live action dubs. One's just replacing a performance, the others cutting's it in half and frankensteining it back together.
>>67651604
All of those (except maybe Tiger Mask) just prove my point
>>67651680
They don't, because those shows look clearly different from each other. Even Astro Boy and Princess Knight look different despite both being Tezuka's.
A lot of people have this weird form of blindness when it comes to animation and they just can't visually make out any differences. Many people swear that some black and white cartoon from the 30s looks exactly the same as 5 Centimeters per Second.
>>67651604
The entire discussion started off with this post:
>>67649736
>American animation is based on cartoon animation, while Japanese animation is based on cinema.
While it has been established that manga and therefore Japanese animation was heavily influenced by western animation (Disney)
Later on you said:
>>67651069
>Anime is radically different from Disney. They are polar opposites.
replying to
>>67650963
Which is changing the subject, as you're sidestepping the fact that one was influenced by the other, even though they went on in very different directions.
>>67651604
>I didn't say anything about Soviet Animation.
I was using the soviets as an example of animation that ACTUALLY wasn't based in golden age western animation. As opposed to anime, which definitely is.
I mean you even linked to a bunch of early anime which - surprise surprise - looks a lot like 30s and 40s Disney.
>>67640384
Well yeah. It had Christian fucking Bale.
I'm flipping through the movie now with English dub and Jap subs on, and there's a noticeable difference between the two. However, I like the dub's dialogue much more. The straight Jap dialogue is too literal and plain, while the English embellishments add a lot more character
For some reason a lot of /a/ types really value literal translations over any variations when translating. I can never figure out why, you're the one that has to read it, and I for one would rather have slightly more readable dialogue retaining the authors meaning than whatever translates "accurately"
>>67651917
>For some reason a lot of /a/ types really value literal translations over any variations when translating. I can never figure out why
Spirited Away is the only dub I've ever gone for. It's great. The voices are fitting and make the characters lovable.
>>67651777
They're each distinct, but I just don't understand how you can't see that they're rooted in Tezuka and a primarily western style.
>>67651917
To add a specific
Japanese subs
>This tub is used for our filthiest guests. It's caked in sludge
English dub
>We only use this tub for our really filthy guests. Ugh, disgusting, the sludge is so caked on it will take days to scrub off
Which dialogue is better? Thats all that matters since the japanese screeching means nothing to the audience anyway. So long as the content is the same I don't think it matters
>>67651917
Princess Mononoke's dub script is by Gaiman and it's much better
>This soup tastes like hot water
>Are you selling soup or donkey piss?
>>67651826
>While it has been established that manga and therefore Japanese animation was heavily influenced by western animation (Disney)
Again, Tezuka based the look of his characters on Disney. And I was clearly not even talking about that. I was talking about the fact that anime is cinematic while American animation is based on cartoons. And that makes a huge difference.
>Which is changing the subject
It's not.
>you're sidestepping the fact that one was influenced by the other
I've never claimed that anime or manga was born in a vacuum.
>>67651832
Again: anime is based on manga in the first place, cinema in the second place, and American animation in the third place.
>I mean you even linked to a bunch of early anime which - surprise surprise - looks a lot like 30s and 40s Disney.
Astro Boy resembles it the most, and even then there's differences. Princess Knight is slightly similar. After that it's goodbye Disney (not that everything can be just attributed to Disney, because the art and science of making comics and animation was in general not very advanced). Also, both Astro Boy and Princess Knight were ten years old by the time the anime versions rolled out.
>>67652450
>I was talking about the fact that anime is cinematic while American animation is based on cartoons. And that makes a huge difference.
Na man, western animation uses full cinematic grammar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5lu3pmHmpE
You could say Snow White is based in "cartoons" since a surprising amount of the movie is structured around three minute gag sequences, but saying "anime is cinematic and american animation is based on cartoons" is ridiculous weeb shit.
>>67640339
>>67642231
Dont try to reason with them
Hipsters gonna hipst
>>67651917
Translations should only be as liberal as they need to be. With fansubs in particular you sometimes run into stuff that's needlessly liberal.
>>67652119
Meme.
>>67652158
I never said they aren't rooted in Tezuka. Even the most recent anime on television is rooted in Tezuka. That doesn't mean they look the same.
But they most certainly aren't rooted in American animation.
>>67652288
>Which dialogue is better?
The one that's closest to the original.
>>67652751
You really are quite the spectacle, aren't you?
>>67652751
but TEZUKA is rooted in american animation
that establishes a chain of influence that goes back to america
christ i'm actually getting mad about this thanks a lot 4chan
>>67652727
American animation does not use the full cinematic grammar, not even close. It's rooted in cartoon animation, which is not cinematic. Even in that clip you can see how much it shoots from the side, like the action was taking place on a stage.
>saying "anime is cinematic and american animation is based on cartoons" is ridiculous weeb shit.
No, it's simply an objective assessment of the differences between the two. And you don't know what weeb means.
This is what cinematic animation looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR1cMPnMcaY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARTLckN9e7I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVf7fiQG1NM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG7Rg_WiXYI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmmoBsMw5w0
Don't the Ghibli dubs add exposition?
>>67652816
>le you can't reply to more than one poster at a time meme
Yes yes, well meme'd.
>>67652866
Tezuka drew his manga in a cinematic way and did complex longform storytelling, neither of which were or are hallmarks of Disney or American animation at large. Manga was also a very different medium than animation. So, no, his work was not "rooted in American animation."
>>67653042
Bambi was 1942 and entered production before Citizen Kane. If you want a more "full kino" example fucking fine m8 here you go this one does some little spacial tricks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovhdfa1sUoM
And yea the stuff you linked is great, I'm just saying that your claim of "cinematic influence vs cartoon influence" is nonsense.
>>67653161
Osamu Tezuka's primary influence being Disney is common knowledge. He saw Bambi 80 times. You're deep in denial.
>>67653045
Sometimes? To explain shit American audiences wouldn't get, I guess.
I can't remember.
>>67653417
Birth of a Nation (1915) and Battleship Potemkin (1925) are considered key movies that established cinematic language as we know it. Cinema was already well underway by the time Citizen Kane came out.
>If you want a more "full kino" example fucking fine m8 here you go
Not fundamentally cinematic.
>>67653489
Except, of course, that I never denied Tezuka being influenced by Disney. Don't try to make things up. What's your point anyway?
