>The EU literally changed Sheev from the human embodiment of Satan to a flawed but noble hero who was merely doing what was necessary to save the Galaxy, essentially making him the hero of the whole saga
Even the most die-hard EUfags must admit it was 90% fucking awful. Old Republic was the only decent part and even that stuff was kind of bullshit technology wise.
>>64211438
>changed Sheev from the human embodiment of Satan to a flawed but noble hero
How is this a bad thing OP? That's literally what the films had already implied.
>>64211496
In Return of the Jedi he's literally satan and never implied to be anything otherwise. In the prequels he's evil Julius Caesar. Just because the Republic was shit doesn't mean he was in any way justified in the films.
>>64211572
GOOD IS A POINT OF VIEW
>>64211438
I haven't read the EU but this sounds really interesting actually. A flawed hero
>>64212367
It's not actually explored or anything, it's just heavily implied that Sheev started the Empire to improve the galactic military in preparation for an external invasion of weird insect things from another galaxy.
>>64212603
>it's just heavily implied that Sheev started the Empire to improve the galactic military in preparation for an external invasion of weird insect things from another galaxy.
Sheev was altered by Plaguies from his original programming. In order to find a way to break his programming he created Anakin, in order to kill Sheev.
>>64211438
The EU portrays Sheev more as a twisted modernist who believes in progress and kind of social darwinist philosophy based in Sith teachings on the nature of power. There is a certain tragic element to Sheev in how Plagueis manipulates him as a youth into slaughtering his whole family in a rage, something which deep down he resented his Sith master for encouraging him to do, eventually giving Sheev the power to end Plagueis. But Sheev's ultimate goal was to become immortal and rule forever as the eternal emperor of all worlds, using apprentices as tools to his own ends. He was only preparing for the Yuuzhan Vong because they would soon threaten his own power. He's far from a flawed but noble hero. More of just a pragmatist who also happens to be a complete egomaniac, but is that way because his father never loved him and yet always prevented him from feeling the consequences of his moral failings by wiping away his sins through money and intrigue.
There is also no evidence that the Empire would have performed that much better against the Yuuzhan Vong.
>>64211572
It's treason, then
>>64212973
>There is also no evidence that the Empire would have performed that much better against the Yuuzhan Vong.
I think it's a given that a centrally organized super empire would be a more effective force than a disparate amalgamation of autonomous republics.
>>64211572
now this is shit taste
>>64212973
I thought Sheev knew about the Vong before even Phantom Menace. I'm not saying he's portrayed as good, just that him knowing about the Vong make a lot of his future actions potentially justified. Before the Clone Wars the galaxies military was so shit the Star Wars equivalent of some shitty Japanese corporation could essentially annex an entire planet because of a dispute about trade tariffs with no repercussions.
>>64211438
The difference between the prequels and the OT perfectly shows the shift in popular morality over the past few decades
Traditional stories of good an evil have almost always been a virtuous force vs a chaotic force (OT, LoTR, real biblical type stories)
Lately good and evil epics have been oppressor vs oppressed. Palatine was trying to oppress the galaxy and the jedi's were trying to free everyone
The oppressor vs oppressed model usually presents a false dichotomy that require the view to suspend any inquisitive thinking and ask "what is each side's motivation"
Which perfectly mirrors modern liberalism
>>64213194
At best the Galaxy would become stuck in a state of perpetual struggle between the Vong and Empire with everyone suffering.
The only reason the Vong were defeated was because of Jacen Solo. Sheev winning equals no Jacen, no Jacen means no victory.
>>64213274
I think he became aware of the Vong some time after Phantom Menace but he was a Sith since he was a young man. He was a progressive politician on Naboo who wanted to modernize the planet and restore House Palpatine to glory. He had beef with his conservative dad and always got in trouble in school but his dad always bailed him out, so he never learned anything about consequences for bad behavior. When his dad tried to send him away, Sheev asked Plagueis for advice and convinced him to not let himself be his father's servant anymore. Sheev got into a fight with his dad and then slaughtered his entire family in a rage. Plagueis covered it up for him and took him as his apprentice. At some point after that, while Plagueis' apprentice, he became aware of the Yuuzhan Vong. The Yuuzhan Vong just became an excuse for his actions, but he was already set on ruling everything with an ironfist before and was really messed up.
>>64212973
>>64213194
>>64213274
I haven't read the Plagueis book, is it actually mentioned that he knows about the Vong? If so, how?
Also, why didn't Sheev try to force Hutt Space to be more loyal? It was too far on the Outer Rim?
>>64213575
>The only reason the Vong were defeated was because of Jacen Solo. Sheev winning equals no Jacen, no Jacen means no victory.
While I can accept that, this only takes into account the biggest arse grap deus ex machina in the entire EU with the fucking magic force planet, a perpetual state of struggle that could possible result in survival was better than relatively easy defeat
>>64213619
>I haven't read the Plagueis book, is it actually mentioned that he knows about the Vong? If so, how?
I'm pretty sure it wasn't until the Outbound Flight Project or around that time that he became aware of them.
The European Union?
>>64213669
>The European Union?
Hello normie.
>>64213456
>suspend any inquisitive thinking
>and ask
Holy fuck man what are you even fucking saying?
>>64211438
>A villain having motives that are never understood by the protagonist but were righteous and just is a bad thing
Is /tv/ pretending to be retarded?
Why isn't this in /lit/?
>>64211438
So he went from a Saturday morning cartoon villain to a compelling character?
WHAT COMPLETE GARBAGE, YOU'VE OPENED MY EYES.
>>64213768
it's reddit
they think everything is black and white
>>64213768
>>64213788
>>64213827
Because it's fanfiction that has nothing to do with the source material. Vader was the morally conflicted complex villain, Sheev was a plot device to influence the characters who actually mattered.
>>64213747
Can you read, he was saying to accept that view of the story you have to not ask any deeper question
>>64213969
>OP this mad he's getting BTFO in this thread
Sorry buddy, better luck next time
Isn't the whole gimmick of stars wars the fact that good and evil are clearly distinct and that the jedi are inherently good and the sith inherently bad?
I know that the jedi say that only siths think in black and white, but that's only in a superficial level. Deep down things are indeed divided between good and evil and only the jedi can distinguish them properly due to their closeness to the force.
Honestly I'm confused that people can watch the prequels and conclude that Sheev is evil, or more specifically, 'bad'.
Yeah, he's clearly the antagonist in ROTJ, but in ROTS he's literally the protagonist by all relevant metrics.
>>64215533
Based Lucas made the prequels not to show Anakin's backstory, but to redeem Sheev in the eyes of the audience.
>>64215612
Palpatine is the only example I can think of where one character can exist as both a good protagonist and a good antagonist in the same universe.
Context is everything.
>>64211438
>who was merely doing what was necessary to save the Galaxy
What? Is this for real?
Someone into the EU explain this to someone who only know the movies.
Old canon
>Galactic Civil War continues for more than a decade after Battle of Endor
>Empire still poses a threat for years after Rebels seize Coruscant and form the New Republic
>loads of interesting Imperials left over for Rebels to fight, like Moffs, Grand Admirals, Warlords etc
>lots of relatively interesting political intrigue and faction conflicts within and outside the New Republic/Empire
>loads of memorable post-Endor battles throughout novels, comics and games (Rogue Squadron, anyone?)
>Palpatine's crazy inner circle fucking around and causing chaos
>Warlords splitting off and doing their own thing or fighting among each other for control
>Empire still possesses tens of thousands of heavy warships, including dozens of Super Star Destroyers and experimental super weapons
>Thrawn and Pelleon
>Baron Fel
>Empire's continued presence in the galaxy actually gives the New Republic something to do, allowing Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie, Wedge and Based Kyle Katarn to embark on many more adventures
>Even after the New Republic and the Empire declare ceasefire, several systems still follow the Imperial Remnant for the next century
New canon
>No interesting Imperial leaders left, somehow
>Within a couple of years since Endor, nearly every high ranking Imperial and majority of the entire Imperial fleet have been destroyed
>New Republic comes to power out of nowhere and changes the galaxy's capitol from Coruscant to some random world no one gives a fuck about before doing nothing of interest for thirty years
>remaining handful of Imperials just kind of fuck off to uncharted territory to found the First Order and do nothing of interest for thirty years
>nothing of interest happens for thirty
>fuckin
>years
>all because the Empire (and Rebellion?) disappear overnight
The old EU had a lot of stupid shit but the good stuff outnumbered it by a fairly wide margin. Disney's EU has nothing of interest because it doesn't want to have anything of interest.
>>64215817
Super powerful extragalactic alien empire invades the galaxy, kills trillions of sentients, 'terraforms' Coruscant beyond recognition
The argument is that the Empire led by Sheev would have been powerful to fight them off and win
>>64212603
So he's Commander Shepherd now?
>>64212973
So now Plagueis is Killgrave?
>>64215975
basically
Why is everybody calling him Sheev?
>>64215612
>>64215736
The prequels differ from the OT precisely because Lucas made a trilogy with no real "good guys" like the simple dichotomy in the OT story.
>>64215533
Bullshit. He manipulates the Republic into a war and causes countless deaths, murders Jedi by the score by proxy, engineers the death of a schoolful of children all in a quest for ultimate power. Only the edgiest of edgemasters can stand there and say "Palpatine did nothing wrong" with a straight face. He was the villain, pure and simple.
>>64212973
the death stars they were building would've been able to destroy the yuuzhan vong worldships
>>64216957
His first name was revealed to be Sheev fairly recently. /tv/ has seized on this as the meme of the day and calls him that almost exclusively now.
Does anyone else get a small level of anxiety because of the amount of interesting/funny posts you invariably miss.
I am developing a habit of desperately keeping up with memes, scouring the archives, reading a load of threads.
I don't want to miss one goddamn post and I don't know why
>>64217280
It's just your OCD. Realize that nothing bad will happen to you if you miss a post.
It's okay, I have those issues too. Not as bad as you seem to have them though.
>>64215533
He's certainly the protagonist, but he's unarguably (at least, unarguable for people whose arguments are bounded by reason and evidence) an evil protagonist, willing to kill untold millions (billions? trillions?) for personal power.
>>64217280
Sometimes I stay up too late browsing 4chan, but I never read the archives. Whatever I missed will inevitably be reposted 10 more times.
>>64213768
Because not everything must be ambigous. Nothing wrong with something just being simple.
I am sorry you are so insecure you need everything to try to be super deep so you can act smart.
>everything should be reduced to the same formula!
Kill yourself
sheev is a saint guyz. i mean would this face lie to you?
>>64217427
Whether he's an evil protaginists or not really depends on how you would answer the question "do the ends justify the means?".
But the fact that we can debate about the goodness of his actions disproves OP, as that shows that both the prequels and the EU had enough depth that the characters actions can be viewed in different lights.
>>64217620
>>64217280
I browse why playing vidya on another screen.
During dull vidya moments, I peep hot new Sheev memes for a giggle.
>>64217490
I'm sorry moral ambiguity scares you so deeply that you need everything to be super simple.
>>64217926
*flips ghidorah*
>>64217280
There has never been a more appropriate time to post this.
>>64217490
Real world isn't black and white, but varying shades of grey. While the "FROM MY POINT OF VIEW x IS EVIL" is a meme, it's actually a very good point as in the real world, our PoV vastly shapes what we view to be good and evil, and most of those PoVs have some legitimatcy to them.
>>64212603
That's Revan.
Sheev was just an asshole in the EU too.
>>64213984
Its ambiguous.
>If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force.
Prove him wrong, /tv/.You can't.
>>64218008
okay
>>64218178
He isn't. The jedi are basically gun control advocates, just replace guns with the force.
>>64217040
>He manipulates the Republic into a war and causes countless deaths
>countless deaths
Literally nothing but pre-paid clone troopers and droids.
>Watching Star Wars
Why not something that actually handles moral complexity well, like pic related?
>>64211572
julius caesar was already evil though
>>64217490
this is the most autistic thing ive ever read
>>64217040
>countless deaths
The Clone Wars death toll was never officially said, except that it was 'several billion'. The Galactic Civil War death toll is similar, including Alderaan (2 billion people)
Meanwhile, the Yuuzhan Vong (which the Empire was created, in part, to destroy) butchered nearly 400 trillion people. Not billion, trillion. With a 't'.Oh, wait. Thanks Mickey
>>64218248
Explain how it does.
>>64217975
>>64218311
>hurr fedora
>hurr autism
If you don't have anything to say then don't fucking post.
>>64218516
>posts a oneliner sperging about oneliners
So why did Sheev not see Vader's betrayal coming?
Even in ESB Vader told Luke they could kill the Emperor and rule the galaxy together.
>>64217115
if one x-wing pilot was good enough to blow one up, the coral skippers would have been more than sufficient.
While the Empire may have been able to prevent some planets from falling, they'd never be able to fully stop the Yuuzhan Vong threat.
>>64218670
One x wing pilot using the force.
The Yuuzhan Vong were such a stupid grimdark Mary Sue race. I'm glad their stupid asses got kicked out of the canon for good.
>>64218478
>Villains with their own individual motivations, which are understandable from their perspective and allow varying degrees of sympathy, but which which don't necessarily outright justify their actions
>Heroes who's strengths are essentially inseparable to their flaws, and who do things that either conflict with each other's worldviews, or are more questionable than the people they are fighting against
>Actively plays with perspective
>Scenarios set up specifically to give characters highly positive reasons to do things they fully realise are terrible, in ways that aren't the slightest bit edgy, but which make it impossible for the viewer to simply take a side, or even remain neutral, without acknowledging the flaws of that perspective
>>64218541
>posts a oneliner sperging about posting a oneliner sperging about oneliners
>>64219124
>posts a
No. No, I'm not playing your game. How's this for one line- Fuck you, nigger.
>>64219068
I might try this. Any idea why people don't like Crystal?
>>64219157
Even in that I can outdo you:
Faggot.
>>64219222
Not him, but I can go even shorter:
Cunt.
>>64219222
Nog
>>64218044
No, Revan made the Republic stronger because he felt it was needed across the galaxy, during his campaign he discovered that the True Sith were coming back.
Sheev discovered the Yuuzan Vong, some insects from beyond the outer rim that were both inmune and deaf to the force.
>Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace…a larger view of the Force. Be careful of the Jedi, Anakin. They fear you. In time, they will destroy you. Let me show you the true nature of the Force. Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi! Learn to know the dark side of the Force, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death.
— Democratically elected Chancellor Palpatine, primary protagonist of Star Wars Episode III, encouraging his young friend to be open-minded about religious and philosophical differences, instilling the virtues of a wise leader, as well as correctly predicting the tragedy of Anakin’s brutal maiming at the hands of the Jedi.
>>64211438
eu is obv trash
just there to make money
>>64219291
>immune to the Force
>kill half the galaxy
>'ships' are just pieces of rock and animals and crap that are magically stronger than real ships because lel i dunno xd
Reminder that the stupid Warhammer-knockoff bullshit which was the New Jedi Order series, and the equally bad Legacy of the Force series were what singlehandedly convinced Disney to erase every single good thing the EU brought because they couldn't be worked with.
Yeah, I'm mad. Fuck you
>>64219169
It lacks most of what I just mentioned and fails to develop any characters at all aside from the heroine, while also adding in fanfiction tier bullshit. Its not quite as horrible as people claim it is, but there's basically no point in watching it over any of the other numerous adoptions of Sailor Moon that have their own unique merits.
>>64219390
>Old EU
>dumb merchandise made to leech off the films' success
>New EU
>hollow merchandise made to joylessly advertise the new films
POETRY
O
E
T
R
Y
>>64219485
I see. I wouldn't bother with Crystal anyway, but could you expand on what you mean by "fanfiction tier bullshit"?
>>64219361
>yfw sheev posting led us to understand how he the sith aren't evil, just as sheev led anakin to undestand they aren't evil
>yfw lucas' poetry trancends time, space and reality.
>>64219620
Holy shit
>>64219602
The author of the manga has this thing where she likes the idea of all the heroines hooking up with the villains for the sake of it, in the most blatantly pointless and nonsensical way you can imagine that utterly fucks over everything that make the character's interesting and unique in the first place. She got Crystal to go through with this.
>>64217926
Retard, learn to read.
I can and actually enjoy both but unlike you children I don't expect everything to be the same.
I can enjoy a simple story and a complex one, you are just like a child that found he likes something and wants to put it on everything.
>>64218043
Here's another moron.
Thanks for the pointless lesson captain obvious.
Yes, that's real life it doesn't mean that every work of fiction must be like that. Especially a childish one like Star Wars.
>>64212688
that fucking plot twist single handedly killed the whole Starcraft lore
>>64219987
>explores adult themes, such as grey morality
>some how it's childish fiction
You're the moron here. Star wars, esspecialy the prequels and the EU aren't childish stuff like the OT. Sorry lucas changed your space magic blakc and white OT into a more complex universe.
>>64213194
That's what Americans said before Vietnam.
>>64219699
>>64219620
>>64219361
>yfw he was talking about how he went too far for our lesser minds to comprehend
>>64220149
The Prequels are a joke, they tried to be mature and failed horribly.
>EU
The only mature ones are the ones that are actually self aware of the childish reality of the setting like Kotor 2.
But keep deluding yourself.
>>64220650
America has had a large centralized federal army since the Civil War, you twat.
>>64220937
>KOTOR 2 mature
>babby's first grey character
Know how I know you're a millennial?
>>64221007
I just used an example even a retard like you would know.
Also good job missing the point.
>>64211438
EU fag here, only about 20% of it was awful, 45% of it was meh, and 35% was excellent
>>64221051
The game is shit though. Incoherent plot, bugs everywhere, ugly rehashed scenery from KOTOR 1, boring characters that talk endlessly about stuff you never get to see. It's way worse than the first game, despite KOTOR 1 being a simple black and white good vs. evil story. I don't know why KOTOR 2 gets so much praise on 4chan. I cringe every time someone mentions it in a positive light.
>>64213456
>The oppressor vs oppressed model usually presents a false dichotomy that require the view to suspend any inquisitive thinking and ask "what is each side's motivation"
>implying the "good vs evil" stories that the OT, LotR, and biblical stories tell bother exploring the rationale, motivations, and justifications for both sides
>implying your boogeyman is any worse at empathizing with the other side than the other side is at empathizing with your boogeyman
>>64215533
>Honestly I'm confused that people can watch the prequels and conclude that Sheev is evil, or more specifically, 'bad'.
Because not everyone has the same viewpoints on good vs bad, right vs wrong, etc. How is that confusing?
Didn't ever read any EU stuff, but after reading about the Mary Vong race from this thread I am fucking glad it got killed off. Who the fuck thought that was a good idea for an enemy?
>>64219361
>learns the dark side of the force
>wife still dies anyway
>predicted to be destroyed by jedi
>only destroyed by jedi because he believed that he would be destroyed by them
So lies and self fulfilling prophecies? BASED SHEEV
>>64221687
>Gets confused because of Obi Wan's hand at manipulating Padme, realises he's been ambushed by Obi Wan who intends to kill him, quickly and accidentally chokes his wife to death because of the terrifying, albeit incorrect revelation that she intentionally brought Obi Wan to murder him - all of this completely independent of Sheev's influence and completely outside of his control, and before Anakin began ANY of his actual Dark Side training
>Gets ambushed by Obi Wan Kenobi who uses the 'JEDI ARE INTRINSICALLY GOOD AND OUR DOGMA IS FINE' delusion that Sheev had already rebutted as justification for his following actions, who goes on to maim and delimb Anakin, and leave him to slowly burn to death next to a lake of fire
>Sheev saves him, and later informs him that he (somehow) killed his own wife in his anger
>This somehow means Sheev is a liar and a villain
>>64221393
Some idiot. The problem with the EU is it was really good for like 20 years and then some fuck came along and tried to casualize it. Happens to everything.
>>64219730
So, as I understand it, Crystal is faithful to the original manga, but that's what makes it bad because the original manga isn't very good to begin with and the older anime is what made Sailor Moon good?
>>64218430
Consider that the Clone Wars were fought by robots and manufactured clones. I imagine the death toll of real populations wasn't that high.
>>64223157
Why in god's green fucking earth are you trying so hard to understand a Chinese cartoon? Even at their best, they are mediocre rip offs.
>>64220864
They are evil. People are attempting to be or seem intellectual by looking too far into it, or going against the message of the movies. In ROTJ, it's pretty clear what the sith are. They are stronger in the force, but live their lives in constant hatred of themselves and everything around them. They don't have any friends, they can't trust anyone. That's why Luke ultimately wins, he can't compete with palpatine, but with the Jedi teachings of compassion, he gains an ally in Vader and overcomes the emporer, who although powerful, is only interested in serving himself, which leaves him alone at the end. It's the classic tale of the power of friendship. The Jedi will always win because the sith are selfish and lonely at their core. Vader was never truly a sith, most of his hatred came from himself, hating what he had done and become, the light was always calling to him but he never believed he could be redeemed until he killed the emporer. Good always wins vs evil.
>>64223157
Pretty much. The manga has no where near the depth of the anime and is dull as all hell for the most part. However, it does handle the major, high level plot in far better ways than the anime does, so it's worth reading the end arc sections of each season for that alone.
>>64215837
I love reading about Pellaeon. He was the only surviving pragmatist within the dissolving Empire, and managed to keep it alive for long enough to sign a treaty with the New Republic as equals.
It was a hell of a lot more realistic of a portrayal of the crumbling Empire then the new canon's, "Oh, the Empire disappeared for a while there, but now they're back. And they're stronger than ever!"
Say what you want about the EU, but there were tons of moments that made its existence well-warranted.
>>64215914
I love this argument, because Sheev was right. He knew of their existence, and the enemy even said themselves that the Empire stood a hell of a better chance at repelling the invasion than the New Republic.
Sheev was just trying to save the galaxy from a worse threat.
>>64223623
>Good always wins vs evil.
ahahahah
>>64218249
No.
>>64217280
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkK8g6FMEXE
>>64211572
From a certain point of view.
>>64211572
>>64212688
>>64212973
>>64213194
Are you people fucking retarded?
Sheev was behind the separatist confederation, he was behind both sides, the war was literally made by him for him.
>>64223459
Ironic considering Star Wars is a ripoff of a Go Nagai manga.
>>64218178
Why didn't Anakin attack him at that point?
>>64224894
Because he's still thinking like a Jedi. It's mace telling him that murdering a fellow forcie is ok which drive him over the edge.
sheev vs the vong sounds like the name of a great movie
>>64225564
Sounds like the name of some cheesy B-movie.
>>64225587
u mean like star wars 7
Where were you when you realized sheev was right about everything and the jedi were corrupt soldiers of the republic, something they swore they would never be?
he's the nicest guy you'll ever meet and a twisted fucking psychopat
sheev/trump 2016
>>64224894
Because Sheev was a life long friend that he trusted. Would you kill a friend because he said some edgy shit once?
>>64225610
At least Star Wars is a more high-class title. Gives you the feeling of something grand and big budgeted.
Abeloth was the best, I think we can all agree on that.
>>64224828
Which one?
IT'S
>>64226234
Black Lion. Nagai is actually totally cool with getting ripped off though, surprisingly.
