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Listen 2: Electric Boogaloo - GOATer than GOAT edition
About to be sucked into a confession dial: >>63133779
Is moff actually going to reinforce the doctor being half time lord half human as super canon?
>>63137156
Yes.
So the doctor's just standing there on gallifrey after looking for it for a long time and he doesn't even give a shit?
>>63137188
but he does?
Moffat's gonna do it, he's really gonna do it, the Doctor Clara, Clara Who confirmed, the absolute madman
>>63137188
He does give a shit, he's just mad now.
>>63137156
Possibly.
>The hybrid is me.
>The hybrid is Me.
Clearly Moffat intended that to be ambiguous as fuck so we'd have it down to either the Doctor or Ash.
SHEEP episode. Maybe even a llama.
So anyone who disliked the episode basically has the worst attention span ever, yes? God forbid an episode of Doctor Who has an interesting, complex, and engaging story that makes you think. No, no, it must be action and running all the time! With silly shenanigans!
Wait a second, how did he have enough food to last 2 billion years?
>>63137188
He does, but he's also pissed off as fuck.
>>63137188
I'd say he gives all the shit given the current situation.
>>63137156
Gonna get moffucked. It's clearly Ashildr
Doctor's confession is that he created the hybrid, not that he IS the hybrid
>>63137228
The dining room would reset just like all the other rooms.
>>63137228
The food kept being recreated.
>>63137228
The rooms reset, m8.
>>63137188
>over 2 billion years of being trolled and probably worked out who was behind it all from the very beginning
the surprise has worn out its welcome
>>63137228
The bowl of soup regenerates each time he leaves the room.
>>63137188
Well, he's been looking for it, but his people found him and instead of just calling him up or something, arranged a complicated conspiracy that got his friend killed, then murdered untold billions of copies of him.
So, I'd say he's earned a moment to wrestle with his feelings.
>>63137248
Would also explain why Time Lords are pissed at him while also not trying to "kill him" eons ago when he first lived on Gallifrey
Could also be a double moffuck because he IS half human and was afraid prophecy was about him when it was really Ashildr
>>63137228
The castle was in a closed energy loop. Whatever that means, it was to explain everything would be reset. So just enough food to last a few days, reset in perpetuity.
>>63137248
Ashildr would be half human half Mara because she's immortal due to their technology retrofitted to work with a human, he didn't magic her into a Time Lord.
>>63137270
I like thinking of that as actual regeneration, so sometimes it comes back as tomato, sometimes clam chowder. Every now and then it's an ice cold gazpacho.
>>63137256
>>63137258
>>63137266
>>63137270
>>63137287
Ah yes I remember now, sorry lads. Did they ever explain why room 12 didn't reset? Just because it's outside or something?
>>63137127
Fuck,American heremy DVR cut off just as it began to fade to black, what happened?
>>63137305
Regeneration theories about a bowl of soup. Truly, this was the best of NuWho.
hello doctor who loving chums
in one of these generals about a week ago someone posted a webm of an actress on the show showing her flat derriere
flat asses are my fetish
if anyone saved and could share that would be top-notch
cheers
>>63137319
Best answer I've seen is that it's because it connects to the outside universe, so the not-diamond wall was the demarcation boundary between the closed loop and real time-space.
>>63137227
some of them are literally too stupid to follow it or piece together the story he was telling as he was chipping away was referring to himself
>>63137158
ITS THE SAME DINER FROM IMPOSSIBLE ASTRONAUT
MOFFAAAAAAAAAAAT
>>63137293
But he doesn't confirm either way that they had to be half Time Lord either
For all we know, if you got off non-TV canon, being Time Lord is a status, not a species
>>63137319
Because plot basically.
>>63137319
They don't explain in the show but it's assumed it doesn't reset because it's connected to the outside.
>>63137325
Eccleston came back. Screamed Fantastic and jumped out the window.
>>63137305
>gazpacho soup
>>63137227
it was more boring than the star wars prequels, at least they had light sabers
If the rooms all reset, why didn't his drying clothes reset the first time?
>>63137368
The soup equivalent of the Valeyard, one assumes.
>>63137380
Oh so it was already over then? Missed the "next time" trailer tho
>>63137325
This time instead of saving an enemy base from a monster or hanging out with a gang of special guest characters, the Doctor runs from a monster in something bigger on the inside again.
>>63137393
Only way it makes sense is if that room didn't reset either. Also, if you stop to think about it, the first time round the Doctor went to punch the wall, he was naked.
Goddamn I really don't like Maisie Williams and am slightly annoyed that she's going to still be in the next episode.
Oh but phenomenal episode this week, hot damn when he was making estimates to how long "if he didn't know any better" was so... I don't know how to describe it.
>>63137393
"First time I entered it"
so he was naked the first time.
>>63137393
I assume someone has to have pulled the lever for the first time. They probably watched, made minor changes, until it functioned as a completely closed loop. Eventually, they were tired of seeing his Capaldick, so they left him some clothes in the room reset.
>>63137268
But from his perspective it was only... how long was it? A week?
>>63137342
p-p-please i need to fap
>>63137342
>flat asses are my fetish
why
TIME LORD VICTORIOUS IS BACK YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
>>63137339
his fucking eyebrows
>>63137428
Literally exactly what I was thinking when I wrote it.
>>63137435
>>63137452
>>63137457
>>63137465
lewdI like it.
>>63137342
>flat asses are my fetish
>>63137457
>yfw they filmed that and it's in Moffat's secret stash.
>>63137375
>what happened to the doctor who that was family friendly and had a reasonable storyline for children to follow
>>63137293
>half Mara
Sadly, it's Mire. Absolutely bog-standard you could say. No sneaky snakes around the corner.
>>63137536
I got RIDICULOUSLY turned on by this.
>>63137481
>>63137519
nicer to spank
>>63137350
Holy fuck, it is.
>>63137559
Are you a guy or a girl?
This episode used a science fiction concept (teleportation). It's a high concept story. If a DW episode could work as a great short film it's doing something right.
>>63137467
He still saw the skulls m8. He knows.
>>63137574
WHAT
DOES
IT
MEAN?
>>63137588G-girl.
>>63137530
>>63137536
HNNNNNNGtfw footage of nude capaldifu will never be leaked and will rot in moffat's basement forever
BIRD UP
>>63137574
We are about to get Moffucked, aren't we?
>>63137619
The BBC still only has three sets.
The Guardian reviewer for Heaven Sent said it was to The Deadly Assassin what The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar was to Genesis of the Daleks (presumably he means including Hell Bent as well)
>>63137574
>it's the same fucking diner
Oh shit did the WhoCrew film there while they were over in America for SDCC?Or is it just a reproduction?
>>63137375
that guy watched for 50 years but hates Capadli? He has the best aspects of new and classic Doctors.
So let me get this right. None of that happened right? I assume Ashilda put the confession dial into the machine or something and used it to send him to Gallifrey and the episode was him basically working through the confession dial to teleport to Gallifrey right?
>>63137666
the diner is in cardiff actually
>>63137693
oh
well fuck ignore me I'm retarded
>>63137519
>>63137481
Just be glad his fetish allows him not to intrude on your hunting ground.
Was a rather nice episode of Fort Boyard desu
>>63137127
>"CLALA! I KNOW YOU CAN'T HEAR ME BUT I'M GOING TO PRETEND TO TALK TO YOU ANYWAY"
>>63137665
>'In lots of ways, this series has been Capaldi and Moffat’s love-letter to Tom Baker’s mid-70s purple patch.'
What with the base-under-siege-with-a-twist episodes, the urban thriller Zygons, the spooky weirdly-lit spaceship with some kind of monster that hunts and infects humans (Sleep No More = The Ark in Space, even if SNM is pretty shit and the plot was constructed by Rasmussen or whatever), along with some bits of the Ashildr trilogy feeling a bit Hinchcliffe-y, I can kind of see what he means.
>next episode
>Time Lords
>Ashildr
>Daleks
>Weeping Angels
>Clara?
>The Hybrid
>12's guitar
G
E
T
H
Y
P
E
>>63137771
He was obviously talking to tulpa!Clara.
I'm literally angry about how the Davros 2parter ended up. It had everything going for it and then they fucked up in the last 10 mins for no reason other than to keep davros alive for another story. Literally why
>>63137808
Don't forget the diner from IA. Matt Smith when?
So, the veyland or whatever it was called. Was that the living entity of the confession dial? Like, some sort of living will? The end confused me when it turned into a bunch of gears, was it just clockwork?
>>63137342
>flat asses are my fetish
Ireland?
>>63137619
The wound in time in NotD only allowed Clara to splinter herself across the Doctor's timeline until he would have died at Trenzalore. Clearly, Clara splinters only turn up in places his previous incarnations visited. That diner is one of them. The Great Intelligence splinter probably stole Eleven's silly straw in that instance, making his life a living hell until Waitress Clara returned it.
>>63137808
>>Ashildr
God I hope not.
>>63137836
11 didn't want to go, so he arranged all of this, then took retcon to remove it from his future self's memories.
where's the stream?
>>63137905
Episode's been over for a while m8
>>63137893
She's literally in the preview, chief. Same nose piercing as last episode, new hair style.
>>63137898
So 11 wanted Clara to die
>>63137380
Needs this after he says that line tbqh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o
Even without sound, people would still get it from the image
>>63137219
Is that better or worse than GOAT?
>>63137922
which is why I want it uploaded so I can watch it
So for the 10th anniversary of nuwho we get our first episode actually set on gallifrey
was it worth it /who/?
>>63137926
Nah, it needs BRWEEEEEEEEEEEEE BRWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>63137925
Or 11 couldn't predict she'd go full retard.
Which actually, in seriousness, does raise the possibility that whomever arranged the raven thing really didn't foresee Clara being that fucking stupid.
>>63137932
So Highly Entertaining, Everyone Pleased.
So did Heaven Sent take place inside the Confession Dial?
>>63137946
That's not a Bourne moment m8, that's Caruso/Horatio all the way
>>63137981
yeah basically
>>63137981
yep
oh fuck off is the Retcon going to be a constantly reoccurring plot point from here on?
uh oh looks like the doctor did something stupid then retconned it so he forgot kekaku doori
MOFFAAAAAATTTT
>>63138004
what?
>>63138004
It was in Torchwood
>>63137467
he worked it out, it doesn't matter what it felt like to him it's what he knows
>>63137893
You knows she's the hybrid
"The hybrid is Me"
>>63138010
>filename
lost it.
>>63137127
Why did he never use the shovel on the spot on the flour with all the arrows pointing to it? it looked to be made of dirt, wasn't that what the shovel was for? The doctor fails at video game logic.
What did /who/ think about the time travel based finale ofhorsies?
>>63137808
Weeping Angels?
>>63138121
Yeah, curious as fuck about that shit.
>>63138138haven't watched it yet
>>63138096
Didnt realize there was a new thread
So... Is it that GOAT?
>>63138171it handled altering and fixing past events better than doctor who does
gib upload please
>>63138181
River has some fantastic titties. 10/10 would suck then move down to her pussy
>>63138207
I'd get her some wax first.
>>63138207
she looks like a granny, you creep
>>63138207
>actually wanting vagina juices in your mouth
fucking gross
>>63138195
The best regeneration episode ever
>>63138233
tastes good man
>>63138233
I'd bet her juices would flow like astream
Hey Guys I'm fucking Jenna right now! Her Ass and pussy is sooooo tight and her toes taste like cupcakes! Wish you were here bye
>>63138138
>>63138171
>>63138197I'm pretty autismal myself and think you should've been bred out by nazi eugenics
>>63138257
objectively incorrect
holy autism
the general disdain thread is an absolute laugh fest tonight
>>63138278
The only water inher pubesis theRiver.
>>63138288
KIGGEDERNOR!
>>63138305
Is it possible for 60 year olds to be autistic enough to post about how much they disliked an episode on the internet?
>>63138288
Can't be that tight if you've been fucking her every thread. Can't be that good if you're posting about it while doing it.
Why is the doctor cosplaying as han solo?
>>63138375
Because when he's with Clara he always shoots first.
>>63138375
he just took his jacket off
>tfw the Doctor we've been following since 1963 is officially dead and the show will forever be about a copy of the Doctor
Fuck you, Moffat. It was an excellent episode and one of Capaldi's best (if not THE best) but that detail bugs me. Maybe it's just some shred of autism in me, but it's still a bother.
Well it's obvious that the Doctor no matter how cross is not gonna fuck up the Time Lords, he still hasn't gone back to his moment id Day of the Doctor, which I can't see happening in the middle or beginning of the episode
>>63138138
I don't watch it. This is the line that I'm not man enough to cross.
>>63138454
>(if not THE best)
Of Capaldi's run, that is. Not of the whole show.
>>63138454
so autistic that this is like the 3rd time you've posted the same fucking thing
So, is the doctor now billions and billions of years old?
And did you read billions and billions in 10's voice?
>>63138454
Effectively, this was true since he first used teleporter.
>>63138454
it was all in the confession dial
its still the original
>>63138480
No.
No.
>>63138477
That was my first post on /who/ in a week because I was avoiding it due to spoilers leaking everywhere about this episode.
>>63138480
No, he didn't age while sending copies out.
>>63138480
No, every copy of the doctor only lived for a couple hours (a day, max) meaning the doctor that got out in the end was only slightly older than when he started, and it was ultimately a virtual simulation type thing in the confession dial
>And did you read billions and billions in 10's voice?
Why the fuck would I?
>>63137949
But they knew she died and and put the painting of her in the castle to fuck with him
>>63138521
so it's just a coincidence that there happens to be the exact same comment in 3 other threads
>>63138480
No, if anything we are now billions of years old relatively speaking.
>>63138498
He was teleported into the confession dial. The final copy, 2 billion years later, found the exit, and now that version is running around.
>>63138542
Do you find it hard to believe multiple people share the same sentiment regarding reconstruction teleportation?
>>63138539
>a day max
nah. it took a day and a half to go from room 12 to the teleporter. the doctor also mentions sleeping and the doctor can stay up for over 24 hours before needing sleep.
>>63138562
Confirmed not true. He is still the original.
>>63138542
Yes. And I guarantee the wording isn't the same because that was the only one I wrote on the subject. I only just finished watching the episode a couple minutes before writing it and, again, I haven't been on /who/ in a week.
>>63138594
Confirmed by whom? And what's the justification? It didn't all just happen in his head. It physically occurred inside the confession dial, so what's the mechanism by which he's still the original?
>>63138305
>expecting more out of GB
you failed m8
>>63137981
Yes
>>63138541
Maybe, maybe not. Could've put it in there ahead, knowing he was traveling with her. A little Simpsons-esque "Remenber, you're doing it for her." Or he could've painted it himself in an earlier run.
OFFICIAL /WHO/ SERIES 9 POWER RANKINGSso far
>ELEVENTH HOUR TIER
Heaven Sent
>GOD TIER
Under The Lake
The Zygon Inversion
Face The Raven
>GREAT TIER
The Witch's Familiar
Before The Flood
>GOOD TIER
The Magician's Apprentice
The Woman Who Lived
>Okay Tier
The Girl Who Died
The Zygon Invasion
>Gatiss a SHIT TIER
Sleep No More
>>63138682
Girl Who Died is great tier, it's definitely the funnest episode of the series
I otherwise agree
>>63138682
Yeah...close enough.
>>63138682
FUCK Gatiss
>>63137597
oh fuck
I didn't understand it until just now
All those skulls were him
dear god
>>63138682
>The Zygon Inversion
>Face The Raven
Stopped right there, kill yourself
>>63138682
Why is Eleventh Hour so fucking overrated these days? It's not that good of an episode.
>>63138395
kek
>>63137691
The dial was from the timelords. They resurrected the Master as Missy to get the dial to the Doctor and he just took it thinking that it was from future him.
Then they moved the dial somehow. Probably with Ashildr.
>>63138833
So they transport the dial and leave it in the outskirts of the city until a few hours later, he emerges from it?
>>63137857
looked awful similar to the clockwork creations from the 51st century that the doctor convinced to suicide and the ones who stalked madame da pompadour
>>63138682
Eleventh Hour tier should be renamed Heaven Sent tier.
>>63138862
2 billion years later.
So wait, the Doctor is a Dalek/Timelord hybrid?
>Series 7
>shit besides NOTD
>Series 8
>shit
>Series 9
>80% shit then all of a sudden one of the best episodes of Doctor Who ever
When Moffat leaves I still want him to write standalone episodes because Heaven Sent was masterful.
>>63138833
What? The Doctor had it in his possession first didn't he? Missy got it from Ohila.
ok, The Doctorwearing down a diamond wall over a few billion yearswas epic. It was epic for the Doctor, it was great use of a scientific idea. I can't help but find the use of Teleportation a bit iffy.
What if in the Rebel Flesh if the original Doctor died and the ganger became the protagonist of the series? we would call that bullshit.
did the same thing happen here?
I can find some reasons to shrug it off:
>the Doctor can die on every adventure, life is cheap
>It's a standard sci-fi trope,
>continuity is loose on DW anyway
>some interpretations of regeneration describe it like this anyway, (although changing/revitalising your cells is different from a copy being made from different cells)
>its fiction anyway
>he's creating 'splinters' from the machine rather than 'fresh' copies
inb4 "he's trans-matted before" I don't think it's been confirmed in the DW universe that teleportation works that way.
I'm reminded of the Clara saying, "The Souffle isn't the Souffle, its the recipe" but if you were the Souffle that wouldn't comfort you.
>>63138897
So it was really 2 billion years later? I figured time moved differently and/or it was a metaphorical nightmare until he figure out how to escape the dial.
>>63138900
He just fucking said that it isn't half-dalek, are you fucking deaf? If it is him its because he's human on his mother's side.
>>63138900
No. He explicitly states the prophecy was wrong.
>>63138900
Is this the Doctor Who equivalent of "they died in the plane crash and the island was purgatory?" Watch the fucking episode again and this time pull your head out of your ass so you can actually hear what's being said. Jesus Christ.
>>63138833
No, we see the Doctor give it to the Sisterhood of Karn in the prequel webisode to this season with instructions to give it to someone else.
>>63138900
No, the hybrid legend appears to state something like "A time lord will create a hybrid of two warrior races who will proceed to fuck shit up for Gallifrey." The Daleks assumed it was the Time Lords and the Daleks. The Doctor knows that wouldn't work, since he's already seen one. If it's the Doctor, one wonders how humans qualify as a warrior race, but then, that same thing would make Ashildr questionable. So, if she's possible, he's possible.
So it's basically confirmed the Doctor is half Dalek? Bravo moffat
>>63138973
just fucking stop
>tfw watched this episode and didn't understand shit
JUST
>>63138904
>your post
>shit
>>63138960
>how humans qualify as a warrior race
Because that's all we do
>>63138973
Yes, on his mother's side. Never stick your dick into an oversized fleshlight without checking, or it might happen to you.
>>63138900
He literally said there can't be a Dalek hybrid in the episode and explained why. However, the Doctor is half-human on his mother's side according to the movie from the 90's and my prediction since the beginning of Series 9 has been that's the hybrid.
Doctor Who always makes a point of the Doctor calling out humans for being a cruel and war-hungry race all the time, and they've made it clear Time Lords are great warriors. So, hybrid of 2 great warrior races? Time Lords and Humans, of course, and that would be the Doctor. He must have run away when he learned the truth about his mother being human.
>>63138594
>>63138657
Listen you two, the Teleporter pretty much replaces every atom of the Doctor's body, and takes the information to re-build him back again the exact same way he was. Not just from the "reboots", but straight up from the start. Right? That already makes him a technically different Doctor, but if you really take real life logics into play then the Doctor, and everyone for that matter, is no longer the person they were due to cells constantly dying and regenerating and being replaced until every atom that was in your body a few years or decades ago is no longer part of you. If you consider the copy from the teleporter "not the real Doctor" because it's just a rebuilt body, then really the Doctor has never been really the original one, because nature already replaces his body every now and then. Replacing a hammer's handle then replacing the head, all that crap.
Wait, so the Doctor is a Human/Timelord hybrid?
>>63138916
I can overlook teleporting in stories if they don't go into how it works but in this they made it very clear that it's a copy that comes out the other end and not the original
>>63138990
http://thatexactleaf.tumblr.com/post/134158854650
>>63139017
I think it's going to be metaphorical. Like he spent so much time with humans he's part-human now. No way Moffat is going to return to this ill-conceived bullshit. He has his own ill-conceived bullshit.
>>63139010
Yes, but if Doctor Who is any guide to judge from, we do it poorly. How many times have we stepped in the shit in that series and doomed ourselves but for the grace of him. Real world? No, we clearly fucking aren't, or there'd be no such thing as a refugee. People would stand up to every random despot and overlord. Humans aren't warriors, realistically.
>>63138960
>one wonders how humans qualify as a warrior race
One wonders if you've ever seen an episode of NuWho before. The Doctor yells at humans for being violent baboons like twice per series.
>>63139056
>implying it will be answered
It's just going to be teased ambiguously then the story will move along.
>>63139066
twice per episode really
>the doctor is half dalek
what the fuck? i'm done. i'm fucking done. moffat has gone too far.
>>63139066
>The Doctor yells at humans for being violent baboons like twice per series.
More like twice per episode
>>63139066
Being violent is not the same as being a warrior. We always blow it when it comes to making war in Doctor Who.
>>63139094
>another retard who didn't actually pay attention
>>63137127
Thread's theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDnhf0Ai6NM
>the Doctor is now half Dalek half Timelord
LMAO. THIS IS FUCKING FANFICTION TIER. HOW DO YOU FAGS KEEP WATCHING THIS SHIT? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>63139112
no we blow it when we act like cartoon villains
Doc never lets us go to war, and when we dare to cross him on the matter (the Sycharax) he goes apeshit
>>63139029
what does information mean in this sense?
I don't science
>the doctor is half dalek
seriously?
>hurr durr what would be an interesting twist let's make the doctor half Dalek half time Lord surely no one has thought of that before I'm a genius!
FUCK OFF. Thanks for putting the final nail in the coffin for this show, Jesus Christ it's fucking fan fiction.
>>63139146
>>63139162
people are already suspecting fakes. if you want to actually troll people wait until next thread.
>>63138305
but he wasn't off screen? for most of it he was the only thing on screen?
what a fucking retard
>>63139141
making this before he gets the last bit of footage
0/10
-excluding for specials
it was good until it was revealed the doctor was half dalek. what the living shit? just no. no more moffat.
That was the most butchered and conceptually flawed piece of crap I've ever seen.
>every single room resets
>the soup, the petals, the window, everything
>except room 12 because the Doctor needed a way out
>doctor dies trillions of times to save himself
>no paradoxical effect whatsoever
Some fucking loon is spouting about how in Hell Bent the beloved original Type 40 Doctor's TARDIS will be destroyed and he will take a new model TARDIS thats no longer a police box or something. Losing something and then being able to replace it is fine but the TARDIS is something that can never be replaced in the show. You can change the logo, the companons, the doctor, the writers, the fucking premise, but that blue box is too iconic to fuck up. Even if its a new tarids with the same skin, killing and replacing whats considered the doctors oldest (sentient, let me remind you) friend is shit.
Or theres no truth to this, the same /who/ told everyone last week that the Hybrid was the yellow daleks Eternal and the doctor was using them to revive clara over and over again
>>63138682
>Before The Flood
>great tier
>not turbo-diarrhea tier
ya fucked up
>>63138760
I think people just liked the part where the doctor tells the Atraxi to fuck off.
>>63138911
yeah I forgot it was in the davros episode
too bad this is the end of capadi's run
>>63138916
its a common philosophical question. If you get teleported, and you remain there but everything is moved to another place theres two yous and they kill the first one.
Is that still you dying?
Pretty much yeah.
Is it hard to stomach?
Pretty much yeah.
Given that his regenerations actually kill his every cell in his body anyways and he retains his memories you could say its no different. Basically the timelords figured a way to keep him alive until he could physically enter gallifrey to get around the timelock. Its pretty amazing, like in The End of Time where they made the Master insane to have him summon the timelords with the diamond thingie.
>>63139173
>>63139162
>>63139146
>>63139094
Look at this low quality samefagging bait
>>63138454
Your cells and atoms are getting replaced constantly, dumbass. You are not the atoms but the pattern of the atoms. Your consciousness is an emergent feature of that pattern, not of any particular individual atoms. It is the pattern which is transported and maintained.
>>63139155
Well, this is science fiction, but from what the Doctor says in this episode the teleporter must work like a 3D printer. One that destroys the original object and, with the data it scanned or whatever, and prints it on another location (in this case, inside the 'teleporter'). The information, the data, would be everything that makes the Doctor from that specific moment he teleported, down to the smallest detail, every bone, every hair, every cell, every memory.
>>63139204
trillions teleportation doctors dying
>I'm strangely OK with this
destroying and replacing the old girl
>fuck off and burn in hell Moffat
he wouldn't, would he?
>>63139204
bullshit
>>63139266
But what if it failed and he got dumber because of it?
>Based Capaldi is the current Doctor
>Big Finish's NuWho embargo is virtually gone
>getting an audio series featuring Based War Doctor and 10th dramas set during the only good 10th season
>BBC now counts audios as canon
Why is this such a good time to be a Who fan? Only other fandom with this much HYPE is Star Wars, and that's going to be dried up by mid next year.
>>63139205
Before The Flood was perfectly solid. I've yet to see one legitimate complaint as to why it's a bad episode.
>>63138682
Mate Heaven Sent is Blink tier.
In fact it works as a good compliment to Blink.
>>63139029
>every atom that was in your body a few years or decades ago is no longer part of you
That's not even true. For example, your teeth are the same ones you've had in your head since they first grew. Even when you had baby teeth, the adult teeth were just underneath them waiting to come out. They can't repair themselves and you can't regrow them, they are what they are and they're never replaced.
I believe you don't re-grow neurons, either, so once your brain is done developing that's your brain for the rest of your life. Since the brain is what makes you who you are, and it is never replaced, you are always you.
It's a myth and misconception that every cell in your body gets replaced at some point, just go do some minor research on the subject.
Also, the copy-Doctor doesn't have a rebuilt body, he has a copied body. He could have, theoretically, gone into that room before he died and made as many copies as he wanted if he had some kind of battery to power the machine. Would you say that all the copies were the exact same person? They can't be. At a minimum, they would all have different memories of what location they are in the rooms and what order they came from the teleporter, and that difference of memory would make them all fundamentally unique.
In the same way, each Doctor copy in the episode has a different experience of what time they're in. The Doctor at the beginning sees the stars have shifted 7000 years worth, and the Doctor at the end sees a shift of 2 billion years. The original Doctor (and all but one copy) dies in the dial, but the final copy actually escapes and is experiencing things outside the scope of the lives of the copies before him. They all each have unique experiences and memories insofar as how much of the diamond wall has been broken through and how much of the story they get to tell.
So yeah, it's a different Doctor. The original is dead.
>>63139062
Its not the humans. They would have died countless times if the Doctor wasn't there.
He protected them in their early days. Remember that later on they just go out and literally fuck everything. They survived until the end of time. And the Doctor is a really shitty timelord and he managed to outclever their entire race because he was stupid enough to use The Moment.
I hope they bring up where that thing is now.
>>63139066
He's a hypocrite, he's killed countless species. He's literally like hitler x 1000.
>>63139190
dude read it again. He said if someone would take an episode of Emmerdale farm and rename it Dr. Who
Would you be mad if the Hybrid stuff is the reason The Doctor left Gallifrey?
>>63139358
>he was stupid enough to use The Moment.
>I hope they bring up where that thing is now.
Admit it, you'll shit yourself to death in surprise if you see Billy Piper next week.
>>63139335
The story hinges on fake-outs being justified by ontological paradoxes. Effectively, writer used faux-cleverness (Characters acting the way they do because they do) to avoid having to give them actual motivation.
Also, villain was underdeveloped.
>>63139324
Assuming Force Awakens is good, there's probably enough residual hype to coast to the next movie
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-11-28/guess-who-modelled-for-the-skulls-in-doctor-who-episode-heaven-sent
>>63139315
That should be the least of your worries, anon. See all those flies in the episode? imagine if one of them got inside the teleporter...
>mfw Orson Pink isn't Danny and Clara's descendant, Orson Pink is Danny acting like he's still human, not a Time Lord and trying to keep the timeline stable
MOFFAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
>>63139062
Humans are a warrior race. There is no such thing as a typical warrior society without non-combatants, just look at Ashilder's village as an example. That doesn't mean that humans aren't a war-like and war-hungry species.
Even the Timelords have non-warlike Galifreyans seen in the next episode. The only 100% warrior race in the show are the genetically engineered and manufactured ones like Daleks and Sontarans.
>>63139335
I think you could sum up my biggest problem with it as a complete and utter lack of ambition - it does absolutely nothing new. The whole thing seems to build to a "wah-wah" punchline of "who wrote Beethoven's 8th?" and I was literally sitting slack-jawed at that line going "That's it? We spent a whole two-parter just talking about something that The Big Bang covered in ten minutes? Even then, we didn't need an explanation of it!"
But also I think a lot of other things just absolutely misfired. The Fisher King was a bad, generic villain (with a great design, mind), Paul Kaye was absolutely wasted playing a one-note joke that had already been done three seasons ago, the setting of Before the Flood was both wasted and pointless, not to mention its weird "don't meet your past self" plotline going nowhere and affecting nothing. Toby Whithouse seems to want the Doctor to be an angsty 90s anti-hero in a way that's just boring and dull now that he's not obsessing over the Time War. For some reason, they killed the black guy first and had a woman die to feed one of the male characters' angst, which is so crass and overdone for a show that normally is savvy enough to recognize those cliches and not play straight into them.
It's just a leaden, boring, predictable two-parter that exemplifies everything I don't want the show to be.
>>63139255
You're literally scientifically and medically incorrect. Not every cell in your body gets replaced. And if you make a copy and destroy the original, the original no longer exists to experience anything. He experiences death and it ends there, but the copy lives on to build memories and experience things. Externally the Doctor APPEARS identical, but internally he's not the same Doctor(s) who died in the castle.
Please watch this short video which explains why a copy and an original are two distinct entities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc
So let me see if I've got this down,
Doctor dies and uses his last burst of strength to trigger the teleporter, which has the Doctor's template on, then that teleported Doctor does the same x6,000,000
So then the Doctor dies again and triggers the teleporter again, then the teleported doctor punches the diamond and gets through to Gallifrey.
But what about the paradox of him not killing himself? The Doctor's time stream was to run round the castle for a week, punch the glass and then die, who saved the Doctor if the Doctor wasn't there to save the Doctor?
>>63139324
>Only other fandom with this much HYPE is Star Wars
I'd argue, regarding TV and movies, the fandom behind capeshit (but mostly Marvel) would also qualify. Go back to when Spider-man was confirmed for the MCU if you want to see some hype.
>>63139414
Yeah, but there's something mysterious about a whole new era of Star Wars approaching. Each new era is a new sandbox for EU writers to play in. Once that shroud is lifted, there's no more mystery. And a new era will never be this special again, since Disney is going for yearly releases.
>>63139294
I honestly had no beef with the teleportation clone thing because it was linear, was a cool twist, made sense, and keeps up with how a teleporter would theoretically work. Plus we're ued to the doctor dying, its like 12 regenerating into 12 without wasting a regen. idgaf.
But the old girl? fuck no thats the line, perfrctly replaced or not.
>>63139352
>I believe you don't re-grow neurons, either,
You do. Not at nearly the same rate, but by fifty, you've replaced your brain.
Also, your teeth? They do repair, just at a rate much, much slower than tooth decay occurs, so yes, you would end up with total cellular replacement in the course of a lifetime.
Also, there not being a god, or a soul (I mean, come on, let's not be children) you are just the result of a second order effect produced from emergent patterns in your brain's chemical and electrical activity. If I could duplicate those, I could duplicate you. Perfectly. To the point that you would be indistinguishable from your original..
So, copy or not, it doesn't matter. He's the same person.
so if Ashildre/Me is the Hybrid I find it funny the Timelords were frightened of the cyberbullied Mire and some ancient Barbarians race mixing.
It was all in his mind/confession box.
Think he painted the Clara painting?
>>63139314
right? no way they could take something iconic like that and change it. That would be like changing the sonic screwdriver into a sonic toothbrush or sonic sun...
>>63139430
wow
>tfw they will never bring Jack back to the main series because Torchwood is too sweary and they don't want kids watching it
Doc could straight up make an army of immortals.
>>63139485
There was no time travel. There is no paradox
So whatever became of those pics of the new screwdriver and the Hartnell TARDIS with Velvet 12 and Clara
>>63139384
I think it probably had more to do with him being tired of what his people had become. He believed for a long time that he just killed them all.
>>63139391
They should at least have a splinter clara at the very least.
>>63139392
Villain wasn't the focus, they were hinging on the scene where the Doc pops out of the box. The episode before just has ghosts and the writing, and don't tell me you didn't like the conversation they had. Of course that was mostly good because capaldi but as far as who villains go its standard.
>I'm an alien
>I want earth
>>63139553
viking goblin isn't invincible, she just doesn't age and heals quickly
>>63139430
>they dug up Hartnell just to use his skull
Holy shit that's out of order, didn't he have any kids or something they could use? Or just a generic skull?
>>63139485
Its a totally linear story, paradox not possible.
Initial doctor lands, goes through ep- thinks of bird story, gets attacked, crawls to tele and spawns another of him since his imprint is on the tele because they recreate every cell of your body. Dies, clues left for copy to follow, rinse, repeat
>>63138241
Nice
>>63139565
its happening
60s tardis in the trailer and the radio times magazine talked about the sonic coming back
So it just hit me. What the fuck is wrong with Ashildr's brain that she can't remember things? Jack can, and by the last time we see him, he's way older than she is.
>>63139489
I mean, I'm a fan of Who, Star Wars, and the MCU, but the MCU has lost that touch of hype. Each new show and movie is exciting, but I'm not feeling that same hype I was back when, say, Phase II was announced. The Spider-Man announcement was the last time I actually felt super excited for the MCU, but even now, thinking about Infinity War, I'm indifferent. I'm excited, but not "can't wait" excited.
I guess the only thing now that could get me hyped is Marvel getting the Fantastic Four and related characters back in some capacity.
>>63139553
I swear clara said ass this episode, but when I saw gifs of the scene they all said arse, but I swear to fuck she said Ass, I was very surprised to hear it
>>63139594
Oh, so he just kept dying trillions of times?
This is pretty deep, each teleported Doctor is the Doctor, has all his memories and emotions but the original Doctor died.
Well you know what they say,TELEPORT LIKE AN ANIMAL, DIE LIKE AN ANIMAL
>The Doctor could have sonic'd shut the door behind him
>This would mean punching the unbreakable wall for over 2 billion years
The Doctor literally decided that it was better to kill himself over 2 billion years so subjectively he would only recall the one time rather then just spend 2 billion years punching the damn wall
>>63139201
Room 12 is a gateway to the real world so you wouldn't be able to constantly refresh it due to thermodynamics bruv. Also he's not travelling back in time. There was absolutely zero time travel in this episode.
>>63139616
Why would he make her immortal in the first place? He seemed to have a problem with Jack.
>>63139502
The 10th Doctor's aborted regeneration still "counting" pissed me off waaaay more than this.
So did the War Doctor, because he messed up the numbering, but I give him a pass because I enjoyed the character.
Anyone here watch/read/listened to Think Like a Dinosaur?
>>63139607
Wasn't that the War Doctor's tardis? Looked like it to me.
>>63139607
well there goes another $20 for the screwdriver toy
>>63139503
Being externally identical does not mean it's the same person. It means it's indistinguishable from the original.
If I copy myself and then we look at each other, we now have divergent memories. I will remember looking eastward at him, and he will remember looking westward at me. Our existences would be separate as well, and not contingent on each other. One of us could die while the other lived on, therefore we are distinctly individual entities who were truly only perfectly identical in the very moment the copying occurred. In every moment subsequent, we were in different locations of space and/or time and building separate sets of memories.
I agree with you that consciousness is an emergent property of our brains. But the thing is that by being replaced so slowly over the course of time there is no interruption in the stream of consciousness perceived by you, and you continue to exist moment to moment as yourself. Your brain doesn't shut down and reboot at any point. You are continually existing.
It's not the same as creating a copy of yourself and then dying, wherein that copy would not be you, but an indistinguishable copy. But just because people outside can't make the distinction that doesn't mean there is no difference and it doesn't change that you died.
>>63139616
I guess because Jack was made immortal by TARDIS magic, it altered him beyond just repairing his body when he's injured. He turns into a giant fucking head eventually. Ashildr is a human with a body that self repairs continually thanks to alien tech that the Doctor upgraded.
>>63139647
yes there was
https://youtu.be/17h11OozAtI?t=37s
>>63139641
and he had to use the teleporter to fix his hands
>>63139641
>the Doctor
>punching a wall for 2 billion years straight
The way it was played out was ingenious, you couldn't just punch a wall countless times, but if each time you got a brand new body you could.
>>63139653
Yeah the 10s aborted regen doesnt count to me idc what the moff says. War counts because Engines of War is GOAT and hes a very good character
>>63139684
what if you both kissed
>>63139673
its ok
you can just use 11th doctors screwdriver or cheap sunglasses. 12 is actually rather cheap to cosplay except for the guitars.
Why didn't the Doctor just kill himself for real one time and use the Regeneration energy to blow a hole through the wall?
>>63139533
yeah
he said it was 'really old'
>>63139553
He doesn't like the whole turning people into weapons thing although thats all he does. He's still a coward after all, can't stomach the fact that someone has to shoot someone every once in awhile.
>>63139555
So we never saw the first Doctor figuring it all out and that he had to write bird before he died? That's kind of weird. How'd he figure it out the first time?
>>63139706
>Over 2 billion years not one instance of him made a break for the shovel
Literally would have cut the time into a fraction.
>>63139685
>He turns into a giant fucking head eventually.
When will people let go of this throwaway joke? RTD even says it himself in the commentary for the episode. It's not fucking canon or confirmed, it was just a coincidence intended as a joke.Or was it?Of course it was you fucking autist!
>>63139738
Its fucking irrelevant whether it took him 2 billion years or 1.2 billion years. Obviously the Doctor knew it didn't matter or else he'd have been kicking and punching all the way to the end instead of pausing and reciting that story each time.
>>63139726
that would have used up a regeneration. the way the doctor did it only took one go through as far as his memory goes.
>>63139723
got the 11th Screwdriver and the sunglasses
The only problem I have with the episode is that the fucking exit he punched through was way too big.
He could have saved more than a billion years by making it so he could pass through sideways.
>>63139737
>So we never saw the first Doctor figuring it all out
Correct since we see thousands and thousands of skulls in the ocean that first time. He's already been at it a very long time when the episode begins.
Wait why was the Decaying Doctor able to crawl across the floor? Why didnt he regenerate? that "Every cell is trying" business would work if he had no more regens but he does. Did he hold off? Can he not regen in there? Was the Veil's killing method an insta death? why did he still get to crawl around? Didnt happen to the master in LotTL or in Turn Left
>>63139659
yes I remembered the Outer limits episode. It pretty much sums up what's scary about teleportation technology.
>Not setting your sonic glasses on auto mode to eventually destabilize the wall and turn it to dust while you spend your days evading Space Pepi Le Pieu
>>63138369
ACTUALLY GETTING ANGRY AT THAT POST LMAO KILL YOURSELF
>>63139756
>Despite the revelation in Last of the Time Lords, the actual origin of the Face of Boe is still debated, with Davies himself waffling during the commentary for the episode as to whether Jack really is destined to become the Face of Boe. Producer Julie Gardner, however, has been more assertive in this regard, most recently stating outright at the 2008 San Diego Comic Con that the Face of Boe is Jack Harkness. Similarly, the Torchwood Declassified featurette from Torchwood Series 2 has John Barrowman, David Tennant and Russell T Davies stating that they believe the Face of Boe is Jack Harkness. In-universe, however, we only have Captain Jack's testimony.
>>63139756
It makes me happy when faggots like you resist it so hard. Jack is boe. deal with it.
>>63139684
Ah, but the Doctor never crossed paths with himself, at least that we ever saw. Each coalescence from the teleporter continued as though there was no personal interruption in his consciousness. Because consciousness is second order emergent phenomena, and there's no such thing as free will, each would also have reacted identically to identical stimulus. The only change perceived would've been the number of skulls and the depth of the hole they punched through the not-diamond material, but if you took an early clone and introduced it to the stimulus the later copies saw, his reaction would've been the same as the later copies, rendering minor differences in perceived events unimportant to his overall consciousness processes.
I guess my ultimate point is that I agree with you, but disagree with any negative implications. Yes, the Doctor died. But the duplicates would all be indistinguishable from the original, so it doesn't matter.
>>63139684
Just because people outside can't make the distinction between you and the you from the past, where your body was composed by different cells, that doesn't mean there is no difference and it doesn't change that you were slowly but completely replaced. Point is, why does it exactly matter? for the Doctor it's like a slightly different timeline, I guess.
>>63139790
it was 20 feet thick, at some point he was going to need to make it wide enough for him to be able to make more progress
>>63139820
can't tell if you're being sarcastic or actually Tumblr
>>63139737
>So we never saw the first Doctor figuring it all out and that he had to write bird before he died? That's kind of weird. How'd he figure it out the first time?
This bothers me. The rooms all go back to how they were when the Doctor FIRST entered them, right? Well, that would be before any previous Doctors had died. There would be no sand and no writing, but instead the room arbitrarily resets to the state it was in the moment the Doctor 7000 years into the cycle came in. There's also no reason for Room 12 to be excluded from the energy loop, so that should have reset as well.
Humorous aside: In order for subsequent Doctors to find dry clothes by the fire, one of the Doctors would have had to be running around naked up until death and left those clothes there.
>>63139442
>tfw Iwuzasoldjuhclara translates to "I've seen horrors beyond your wildest dream"
>>63139797
Watch the fucking episode! Jesus fucking christ, do you idiots do other shit while it's playing? He says that he's dying to the point where he can't even regen anymore. All he can do is wait for death.
PAY ATTENTION YOU FAGGOT FUCK!
>>63139840
>Because consciousness is second order emergent phenomena, and there's no such thing as free will, each would also have reacted identically to identical stimulus.
Now that takes me back to first year philosophy class. My professor had a massive problem with the assertion that everyone would react identically to identical stimuli, even though he had to admit there is no mechanism by which free will can be explained.
>>63139797
NVM went back and rewatched, he says hes too injured to regenerate
R8 my thought, lads.
The Doctor regenerates and blasts through the majority of the diamond, his new regeneration activates the teleporter, but because only the reset 12 template was stored then that's what he gets.
The Doctor could have used up his entire regeneration cycle just for fun and then activated the teleporter, died and out would pop a fresh 12, regenerations in tact
>>63139883
the true doctor probably spent way more time in there than any other iteration. He worked it all out on his own exploring each and every permutation of every room, finding every way possible to leave any clue he could before finally realizing he alone would never get the job done
>>63139653
>>63139715
Why the fuck would it NOT count faggots? He was dieing, regenerating. Just because he kept his face, he brought himself back to life.
>>63139889
idk if all that was necessary
>>63139835
how did boe die in gridlock then?
That part doesn't make sense.
He's literally tardis magicked alive. Did his body just finally give out after all that time?
>>63139840
>>63139842
He still knows that he's the only version of himself who made it through though.
And that if he ever wanted to he could fill the tardis with his skulls.
>>63139660
WD's Tardis is cluttered, has cables littering the floor and a jury-rigged "Coral" console.
>>63139846
Oh fuck off, even if what you say is true he could still halve it and have enough space.
>>63139840
>Ah, but the Doctor never crossed paths with himself
That's completely irrelevant. I only used that to illustrate my point that being a copy makes you a distinct, individual entity from the original. Being externally indistinguishable does not make them physically the same person, because one fucking died and the other lived.
>>63138960
>one wonders how humans qualify as a warrior race
Have you SEEN doctor who?
You know, I actually don't mind that the "original" Doctor is dead and now we're left with a copy. It makes the Doctor more vurnable as a character if not even he is immune to something like this.
Besides, the legacy of the Doctor was killed by War's introduction and 10's aborted regeneration counting.
The only thing bad about this episode is Moffat will bleed the concept dry, seen as all you need is a teleporter He'll do it for every single character, he really likes the idea of leaving characters to go through time there self, see 2000 year Rory.
>>63139971
>I don't remember that Jack has become mortal again before.
>>63138454
>implying this is the first time the Doctor used a teleporter
>implying regeneration doesn't already involve replacing all of the cells in his body
>implying that's not how reality works anyway
>implying you missed Capaldi talking about this idea in the very first episode
>implying it matters if you aren't autistic
>>63139931
Because it perpetuates the "CAPALDI IS TEH 14TH DOKTOR LEL XDDDD!!11" argument
>>63139993
He's not fucking dead, all his copies are dead.
The real Doctor was stored in the Hard Drive of the confession dial.
The Doctor even says that there's still a source to copy from.
The man who walked out was the original.
>>63139684
This.
Identical twins are perfect genetic copies of each other, too,but very much their own person.
>>63139790
>>63139984
I don't think you understand how punching works. It requires the entire body to deliver full power, so he has to have enough room to deliver a punch. If he was sideways in there he couldn't have punched with enough force to do any damage.
>>63139902
Yeah, I always fell back on science when those questions rose up in philosophy. Free will is pretty clearly denied by everything we know about how the brain functions. Some people find that maddening. I find it almost hilarious, when it doesn't fill me with existential despair.
>>63139902
We just don't know enough about how the brain works at that level. At the very least he should have had different reactions as the rest of the place changed except for the skulls and the diamond tunnel.
>>63139928
naked doctor confirmed then
>>63139653
You realize if 10's aborted regeneration didn't count then any and all Time Lords could just cut off a limb to siphon some off the regeneration energy into and have infinite healing regeneration energy right? Effectively never running out of regenerations and keeping the same fucking face. That would be dumb as shit.
>>63139971
>how did boe die in gridlock then?
Rose couldn't utilise unlimitedrice puddingenergy from the time vortex, she just pumped him full of as much as she could, after several trillion years all the energy was gone.
>tfw I finally get what the last TARDIS scene with Clara was about
>12 broke when he realized what BIRD meant and wanted to tell the truth
>"I can't keep doing this. I can't, I can't always do this!"
>"Its not fair! Clara, it's just not fair, why can't I just lose!"
>"I can remember it all. Every time."
>tfw 12 is the original
>tfw he remembers all 2 billion+ years of hitting that wall and always remembers by the end
>>63140064
>>63140067
Here's a person with amnesia. I think the conclusion is pretty clear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3fA5uzWDU8
>>63139984
Did you notice it crumble when it became destabilised? Also he can't punch that high. It would have crumbled a little bit over the course of two billion years
Time Lords: It's diamonds. We aint gotta explain shit.
>>63140030
>>implying it matters if you aren't autistic
I already admitted to that. You're more autistic for feeling the need to call me autistic in a response to a post in which I called MYSELF autistic for being bothered.inb4 you call me autistic for calling you autistic for calling me autistic. Let the autism arms race commence!
>>63140012
If he does something like has the doctor secretly make a thousand copies of himself so that he can surivive the next episode and steal every Tardis ever to go find every clara in existence to put her back together I'm going to flip a lorry into my bangers and mash.
>>63140109
Atypical disorders do not make a point except where atypical orders are concerned.
>>63140093
How could he be the original? The original died along with a trillion copies, only the most recent was alive and all he remembers was the events of the week, smashing through the severely weakened glass.
>>63140126
>implying I bothered to read your whole post
>Initially every time the doctor killed himself he had no way of knowing if he was making any progress
>>63140072
>and have infinite healing regeneration energy right?
Not that anon but not necessarily.
Like you might give up a bit of regeneration energy but not necessarily a whole regeneration's worth. Matt for example still had some regeneration energy left he use for River's hand, and I doubt that Davros stealing enough regeneration energy to hybridize every Dalek is gonna be a whole potential regeneration he lost
>>63140093
Imagine that last Doctor getting pumped full of two billion years of identical memories in that place, the only difference being noticing the wall slowly caving in and the number of years
I imagine for his brain to handle it he would remember it in a montage of the wall crumbling away and the stars moving in the sky.
Poor bastard. Time Lords better watch out
>>63139913
Yeah, but from a real world standpoint then they would have had to reveal the next Doctor years early.
>>63140144
BECAUSE THE FUCKING ORIGINAL WAS STORED ON THE GOD DAMN FUCKING HARD DRIVE OF THE CONFESSION DIAL! THE FUCKING DOCTOR SAID THE ORIGINAL SOURCE WAS THERE BECAUSE IT HAD TO BE COPIED FROM SOMEWHERE, YOU STUPID FAGGOT ASS FUCK!
>>63140093
>>"I can remember it all. Every time."
>>tfw 12 is the original
>>tfw he remembers all 2 billion+ years of hitting that wall and always remembers by the end
How the fuck is that even possible? How can he come out of the teleporter with the memories from the brain that disintegrated in the skull on the floor behind the control panel? Especially when he's a perfect copy from the teleporter's memory of the very first time he arrived.
>>63140148
that's fucked
>>63140139
That's convenient. IT's not as though this fits with everything else we know as well and just reinforces it by providing a clear example I can show you in a youtube video. Clearly you live in a special reality that is not affected by data in ours.
>>63140148
>only one copy of the several trillion actually completed what trillions had died to accomplish
reminder that souls exist in the Doctor Who universe thus the Doctor after this episode is still the same as the one before.
>>63140072
>That would be dumb as shit
A lot of Time Lords kept the same face and had a great deal of control over their regeneration (Even growing a vagina if they wanted to)
The Doctor is just a fucking idiot when it comes to regeneration
>>63140175
Technically the original died at the end of Face the Raven. The teleport always makes a copy on some level.
>>63140148
Yeah, I wonder if he could see blood on the wall though.
>>63140162
>I doubt that Davros stealing enough regeneration energy to hybridize every Dalek is gonna be a whole potential regeneration he lost
who nose
a better question is will moffat still be showrunner when it's time to answer that question?obviously he won't and I imagine he had a good laugh thinking about this being some other showrunner in the future's problem to deal with
>>63140219
He wasn't teleported into the tube, he was saved in the dial and then a copy was made. The Doctor essentially became data that was then copied from, over and over and over.
This episode may replace Blink for me in terms of pulling someone new into the series.
Blink is dated so it makes sense too. That being said, Blink would be my 2nd recommend.
>>63140175
>>63140183
I still don't understand this at all.
12.0 goes in and kills himself for 12.1, 12.1 kills himself for 12.2
How can the original still exist if he killed himself? Someone spoon feed me.
>>63140249
does this episode work if you don't know anything about the show?
>>63140183
Because it all took place inside the Confession Dial. Its not real. Its in his head.
>>63140148
He scanned the wall. He might have noticed some minuscule erosion. He probably knew that any progress wouldn't happen for another several thousand years.
>>63140208
Also this. The Raven specifically took Clara's soul so the Doctor couldn't cheat. Everyone also forgets that the Doctor literally retrieves Danny's soul from heaven.
>>63140219
What if the teleporter made a hole in subspace and all the original atoms were thrown through that hole?
You're just trying entry level philosophy copy of copy shit. Just chill mate, you don't know for sure how teleporters work and the writers sure as shit don't have to explain it.
>>63140254
See here >>63140246
The original is converted into information that will be copied after each attempt. The original remains safe until the task is complete.
>>63140148
Even later on he had no way of knowing if he was making progress or if the wall was originally built to look like that or if it was some kind of natural erosion that took place long before he ever arrived. Only the last Doctor truly knew he was successful.
>>63140214
>A lot of Time Lords kept the same face
what? don't remember that happening. not even rassilon or borusa did that. agree with the rest of your post however.
>>63139833
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YDmF4cnA2I
Before it was blocked by BBC, this used to be a video from Confidential when John Barrowman found out from reading a script that he was the Face of Boe.
>>63140246
>Print a scan two billion times
>Take the original out of the photocopier
>>63140266
>>63140249
absolutely not. There's no way this is better to use to introduce people, the ending gives away a massive spoiler for the entire new show.
>>63140270
>Because it all took place inside the Confession Dial. Its not real. Its in his head.
So he just teleported from ravensville to Gallifrey? What was the point of heaven sent then? Why was that in his head?
>>63140299
Bingo! You got it.
>>63140183
because its a confession dial remember? The memories sync with the teleporter, the teleporter always returns to normal after every time. He has to write bird before he dies each time, and he has to use his body as a conduit for the machine. He's the accumulated pain of those 2 trillion years and he's full valeyard next episode.
>>63140275
>Just chill mate, you don't know for sure how teleporters work and the writers sure as shit don't have to explain it.
That's how the Doctor explains it silly goose. Rewatch the episode.
>>63140303
The Timelords clearly fucked with the dial and were trying to get information out of him during that time.
>>63140254
I'm also confused but I think what anon says is that 12.0 isn't 12.0 but actually 12.1, being already a copy from the moment it gets there. 12.0 is stored as data. When 12.XXXXXXXX finally gets through the wall, however, I don't know how that works.
>>63140286
Fairly sure it was in a Seven novel he was talking about an old friend. I don't know man I'll go looking for it
>>63140314
Wait, so how did the original's data get in the confession dial? What was the point of any of this?
So, I'm seeing some weird comments about the Doctor being a copy, but...does it matter? He's been transmatted before, if you're saying that makes him different, then he's been nothing but a copy since oldWho.
>>63140303
The point was that his confession dial was a bridge to Gallifrey, but to access it, he'd have to confess shit to whoever created it.
>>63140185
>>63140194
>>63140242
>>63140270
>>63140285
you guys are missing my initial point
the fucking place regens itself all the time, every time he killed himself he had no idea if the wall was also regening, making his death and rebirth meaningless
>>63140249
Impossible Astronaut/Day of The Moon is already way better at getting across what Who is about. It also actually has the Doctor in it and shows you what kind of character he is. Someone who's willing to commit mass genocide with a smile on his face and create time keikakus and ends on enough of a mystery to hook someone to keep watching. It also doesn't require any previous episodes to see.
Showing someone Heaven Sent first would completely ruin their impression of the show.
>>63140245
yup, it will be ignored, perhaps thats for the best
>>63140319
For the copies. But not for how the original was stored and released.
>>63140325
>in a book
don't bother looking
not canon
>>63140332
At the end of Face the Raven that's where he was transported. Inside the dial.
Teleporters work by reversing the polarity of the neutron flow through the zegnatronic backfeed reversal loop with an internal synchronous algorithm.
>>63140342
No we got that and moved on to the next points. That definitely was the part that got to me the most while actually watching the episode.
>>63140340
But he didn't confess shit, he just figured a way out of it by breaking the 20 foot thick diamond put there to demoralise him into thinking it was an impossibility that he'd leave.
Why do I have the strange feeling that some people are being willfully dense?
>>63140351
>it will be ignored
You underestimate the autism of Doctor Who fans m8.
>>63140354
>how the original was stored and released.
I don't think you understand how this works.
It's like this. There was a book. And the Time Lords took this book, and broke it apart. They took all the words from it, and in doing so, they destroyed the original book. It is no more. It does not exist. Now, they have all the words. And they can reprint an identical copy of this book, but the original? It's gone. It no longer exists.
>>63140392
he confessed a bunch, just nothing worthwhile or useful
>>63140392
>But he didn't confess shit,
To get away from the veil he had to confess something. For over 2 billion years he was making confessions about himself.
>>63140354
We see the last copy walk out of the hole that he makes. There was no "store and release", he makes it clear in the episode that teleporters in the Doctor Who universe are basically "3D Printers"
There's nothing to indicate that there is some extra level of complexity and the walking out at the end implies that there ISN'T
>>63140398
I've come to the conclusion we're all taking part in a collective roleplay going over the same points over and over and over again without making any visible progress.
We're basically re-enacting what the Doctor went through. Enjoy being here for the coming 2 billion years.
>>63140427
Unless he made the same confessions each time. Identical copies subjected to identical situations will react in identical ways.
The fact we're still discussing the various plot points and ethical issues and dark fucked up parts of this episode like 10 hrs after it aired is only proof of how good it was.
Moffat knows there's an existential question behind the Doctor tele-cloning himself and each version dying trillions of times for billions of years. Moffat knows he technically killed the Doctor many billions of years ago. Moffat knows how traumatic and dark that is and how much that pushes the boundaries of the show. He isn't even fucking around with the lore (which I'm sure the next episode will be full of), he's just pushing the Doctor to the very limits, pushing the show to the very limits. In Deep Breath the Doctor asked whether a broom that has its handle and its brush replaced hundreds of times is still the same broom, and here the question returns in the most morbid and horrifying fashion. Just as the Doctor gets tortured, we, the audience, are tortured seeing our hero having to sacrifice himself over and over and over and all of those lost faces, all of those week-long lives that he lived that never got out, never escaped, never were given the chance to be the Doctor...well, they're supposed to chill us to the bone and break our hearts. Moffat knows he's upset you, he knows he's fucked you upside the head. He knows he's truly challenged you as you watched this episode. That's what good television does, by the way.
>Hours ago, everyone understands the episode.
>Now, a bunch of retards are confused and over complicating things.
I don't understand.
>entire castle is in an energy loop
>that means everything returns to its original state
>except the sand/dust from the Doctor's death, the dry clothes, the skulls, or the diamond wall
Why were these things excepted from the energy loop? That would have to mean the person who was interrogating him designed it that way. But why the fuck would they do that?
>>63140398
on 4chan? nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
>>63140410
>>63140427
not that guy but I thought he didn't confess any thing after the first two times? he kept telling the sheperd boy tale until the veil gave him the death touch every time after
>>63140427
didn't he just have to use the same confessions each time? He didn't figure out that it was a repeat until the ending every time.
>>63140480
Anon, you're aware we didn't see over 2 billion years worth of the info that he would have inevitably confessed... right?
>>63140410
So I think I've got it now, he gets put inside the confession dial in raven, the full him and inside of it is just a simulation/torture chamber designed to get the Doctor to confess, then he subsequently escapes the confession dial by glitching the system and as he returns to his actual physical form he's on Gallifrey, right?
>>63140455
But when the first Doctor we see admits to being afraid of death a second time it doesn't stop the monster, so why would repeated confessions from copies stop the monster?
>>63140480
we only saw him confess such and such times, although any one iteration was only there for a small fraction of the 2 billion years we have no idea how long a single copy lasted or how much he confessed to stall for time
>>63140475
They were brought in from the outside.
Imagine the castle always going through the same week from the dawn of time until the Doctor enters it. His biomatter and clothes weren't part of the original cycle and thus don't reset.
>>63140507
Monster resets after killing him.
You people are still yammering, eh?
>>63140507
Remember the opening monologue? When he arrives the monster is born. The monster is reset and so are what answers it will take.
>>63140507
Did you see what happened to the monster after it killed the Doctor? Poofed out of existence. It wanted a different confession each time, but just like the Doctor, it was reset each time he teleported in, so each occurrence of it wanted a different confession, but each one, on hearing the Doctor say he was afraid, was hearing it for the first time.
>>63140567
>>63140567
>>63140567
>>63140567
>>63140567
NEW THREAD!!!!
So the entire episode was just in a timelord torture simulator designed to make you confess whatever secrets you're using with the intended goal of not letting you leave until you've confessed?
>>63140501
what? you don't have the extended director's cut? I feel sorry for you.
but seriously, I thought he didn't confess anything aside from he was afraid to die and he knew about the hybrid. my understanding was every time a doctor came out of the teleporter everything reset, including the veil. so he gave the same two confessions to get away, then he found room 12, then he punched the wall, the veil touched him, he dragged his dying arse to the teleporter and rinse repeat.
>>63140475
Anything the Doctor brings/brought to the castle (ie his jacket, his waistcoat, his shirt, trousers, socks, shoes, question mark undies, the dust of his vaporised bones, his trillions of skulls) stays there. Anything that acts as a portal out of the dimension inside the confession dial (the diamond wall) also cannot work as part of the energy loop, otherwise it would break the laws of thermodynamics by stopping the dimension within the dial from being a closed system (I think). Idk but it seems like the whole of room 12 is closed off from the energy loop maybe, and the bits of diamond broken off just get ground down into dust by 2 billion years of the Doctor's feet.
Little question: why does the Doctor's vaporisation dust always stay the same pile? I think it blew away when he read the word 'bird' but does that mean it's all blown away until he crawls back up all burnt?
>>63140556
that really sucks for the interrogators though
Guess they just figured he would never punch through a goddamn diamond wall. You'd think he could build a laser out of the teleport device but nooooo
I agree with that anon about the shovel too
>>63140093
What I love about that scene is just how damn heroic it is.
The Doctor knows what is going on. He knows that he can break the cycle by just confessing. He knows that he's got many billions of years left to go. He knows that sticking to the plan is choosing to stay in hell.
And yet he does it anyway. He chooses to spend billions of years in that prison rather than confess one last time.
>>63140595
you got it
>>63140601
The point is that we didn't see 2 billion year worth of confessing, dumbass.
>>63140627
>>63140627
>>63140627
>>63140627
NEW THREAD
>>63140480
He still had to get from the teleporter room to Room 12 though, and that means he ran into the Veil multiple times in each iteration of the loop.
>>63140524
And the diamond wall? Why doesn't that reset? It was an original part of the castle.
We see his blood vanish from the hallway floor after he activates the teleporter, so why doesn't his dust or skull vanish?
The teleporter takes so much energy from him that his entire body down to every bone turns to dust, but why not his skull? Convenient that seeing a skull hooked to the machine is a big clue into what he needs to do.
The episode was good, don't get me wrong, but it did rely on a lot of illogical plot conveniences.
>>63140651
Already been posted, mate:
>>63140567
>>63140651
WHAT IN THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?!
>>63140606
no anon
He charges the teleporter, THEN he writes the words
The dust is his body. he has to write it everytime because his bodies decaying dust covers it up.
>>63140668
Different rooms may reset at different times.
The Diamond Wall room clearly doesn't reset at all, probably because it connects to the outside universe, where rooms, you know, don't randomly reset.
>>63140609
The shovel is stupid. The monster was already in the corridor blocking the way once he got over the "remembering dying trillions of times" phase. Running out to get the shovel and running back to hammer at it is pointless. If he really wanted to speed up the time he'd have just punched it more. It would have been way faster if he added one extra punch rather than coming back with that shovel.
>>63140680
I w-was just trying to help
>>63140648
why so crabby? I thought the point was that the doctor did everything the same everytime which is why the montage was repeating thing identically. 2 billions years of the same thing is something we don't need to see. the confessions were the same every time too.
>>63140667
yeah, true. but did he have to confess everytime? I thought he said something about getting it stuck on one end of the castle while he ran to another. I need to rewatch.
>>63140475
Because those stuff were not there when the enery loop was first created, of course this means the very first copy left his cloths on the fireplace and had to punch down the diamond wall naked, praise capadick. Also, the theory as to why the wall did not reset is because it was the gateway to the exit, The skulls were "added." tldr: Anything that was not already there before the doctor was teleported was exempt from the original state thingy expect for the diamond wall.
>>63140634
it really depends upon how important the secret really was
if its just human-timlord and he had to hide it because the timlords would either kill earth or make a new hybrid I can stomach that.
Its weird.
>>63140064
If determinism fills you with despair it's because you haven't grasped the full implications of determinism to be quite honest my famalam.
>>63140606
>I think it blew away when he read the word 'bird' but does that mean it's all blown away until he crawls back up all burnt?
I think only the word was wiped away, the dust didn't vanish. But you're right, there should be 2 billion years of Doctor dust in that room. Pretty convenient that it always resets down to that one pile, right?
>>63140457
if this was a short film not involving the character of the Doctor it wouldn't be an issue.
The discussion on whether the doctor died or not is somewhat tainted by the fact that people here would rather not want to consider the Doctor dead.
he did play with the fans liking for Doctor to challenge the audience. I'll give him that.
>>63140710
Friendly advice: When you make a new /who/ thread, do it in a separate tab. Before posting, refresh the current /who/ thread to make sure no one posted a new one already.
>>63140721
Every time had slight variations. Again, there is over 2 billion years of shit we didn't see.
>>63140730
>Anything that was not already there before the doctor was teleported was exempt from the original state thingy
So why is the castle not full of 2 billion years worth of disintegrated Doctor dust by the end?
>>63140737
I won't give in to the whole "it means no worries, for the rest of your days" aspect of it just because it technically means I'm not responsible for my own actions. Systems still have to be held responsible for the actions they take.
>>63140721
Every single time was exactly the same until he got to the end. How are you people this dense?
>>63139840
>>63139902
>>63140064
>not being compatabilist master race
shiggy diggy
>>63140741
Maybe the reset can't remove it but i can sift it out the window or through the cracks in the floor or some shit idek lel
>>63140782
>Every time had slight variations.
No, the only variation was how far into the story he got because the monster had to travel slightly further each time as the Doctor punched the wall deeper and deeper.
>>63140810
why are you replying this to me? that's exactly what I was saying.
>>63140811
Neurology makes it pretty clear, neurons do not self excite, so you can only respond to stimulus. If you can only respond to stimulus, you have no agency, and so no free will.
>>63140805
>because it technically means I'm not responsible for my own actions
It doesn't, that's not what I meant. Determinism means destiny exists, but you get to choose that destiny.
>>63140852
>If you can only respond to stimulus, you have no agency
That's retarded tho
>>63140867
The perpetual paradox of determinism is the fact that convincing people free will doesn't exist would cause many people to do insanely stupid shit and then say, "Determinism means I'm not accountable!" But if they're allowed to continue believing in free will those same people won't do such things because they fear consequences and know they must be held accountable.
>>63140867
Oh, no, I'm not into that whole...destiny thing. There's no outside force deciding it. We're just unable to self-determine. Everything else is...chance.
>>63140893
It's not pretty, but it is the reality of how we're built. Your neurons cannot self excite, they only excite as a result of outside stimulus. It's why a surprising number of neurologists are Christian. They like to put the soul as the means by which free will exists. Realists just accept that there's no such thing.
>>63140946
I think he meant making a point about physical determinism is a retarded answered to someone advocating compatibilism, as it only shows you don't understand what he said.
>>63140973
But physical determinism is our testable and proven reality, where as compatibility is, at best, idealistic bullshit.
For fuck's sake, why doesn't 4chan have a philosophy board?
>>63141042
>But physical determinism is our testable and proven reality, where as compatibility is, at best, idealistic bullshit.
I don't think you understand what compatibilism is, if you think it's in opposition with determinism.
>For fuck's sake, why doesn't 4chan have a philosophy board?
/his/ covers philosophy
>>63141042
>physical determinism
>testable and proven
lolno
Show me the test that proves everything in the world is predetermined. If anything it's under attack from experimental results in quantum mechanics, but really it's unfalsifiable, you can never prove whether something could have happened differently or not.
> why doesn't 4chan have a philosophy board?
It has two, /lit/ and /his/.
>>63138682
Think you'll find The Girl Who Died isEELStierhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AckvdGbk4w
>>63141121
I don't think you understand what compatibilism is, if you think it's in opposition with determinism.
>>63141156
how me the test that proves everything in the world is predetermined
Oh, that's cute. You kids think this is strictly philosophy versus philosophy.
No, I'm talking strictly neurology. Neurology says you don't have free will, and that's hard science. You want papers? Alright, here's your homework. Here's a fuckton of citations I've used over the last few years of university:
Benjamin Libet et al., “Time of Conscious Intention to Act in Relation to Onset of Cerebral Activity (Readiness-Potential): The Unconscious Initiation of a Freely Voluntary Act,” Brain 106, no. 3 (September 1, 1983): 623–642, doi:10.1093/brain/106.3.623
Chun Siong Soon et al., “Unconscious Determinants of Free Decisions in the Human Brain,” Nature Neuroscience 11, no. 5 (May 2008): 543–545, doi:10.1038/nn.2112
Björn Brembs, “Towards a Scientific Concept of Free Will as a Biological Trait: Spontaneous Actions and Decision-Making in Invertebrates,” Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences (December 15, 2010), doi:10.1098/rspb.2010.2325.
Alexander Maye et al., “Order in Spontaneous Behavior,” PLoS ONE 2, no. 5 (May 16, 2007): e443, doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0000443.
Anthony R Cashmore, “The Lucretian Swerve: The Biological Basis of Human Behavior and the Criminal Justice System,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 107, no. 10 (March 9, 2010): 4499–4504, doi:10.1073/pnas.0915161107.
Daniel M. Wegner, The Illusion of Conscious Will (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2002).
Sam Harris on “Free Will,” 2012, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g&feature=youtube_gdata_player.
Shit, character limit, I'll have to go on in another posts.
>>63141400
That's cool and all bud, but we keep saying apple and you keep replying orange. The question of neurons activity has nothing to do with the validity of compatibilism.
>>63141400
David Eagleman, Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain (New York: Vintage Books, 2012).
Roy F. Baumeister, E. J. Masicampo, and C. Nathan DeWall, “Prosocial Benefits of Feeling Free: Disbelief in Free Will Increases Aggression and Reduces Helpfulness,” Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin 35, no. 2 (February 1, 2009): 260–268, doi:10.1177/0146167208327217.
Björn Brembs, “Towards a Scientific Concept of Free Will as a Biological Trait: Spontaneous Actions and Decision-Making in Invertebrates,” Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences (December 15, 2010), doi:10.1098/rspb.2010.2325.
Chun Siong Soon et al., “Unconscious Determinants of Free Decisions in the Human Brain,” Nature Neuroscience 11, no. 5 (May 2008): 543–545, doi:10.1038/nn.2112.
Alexandre Alié and Michaël Manuel, “The Backbone of the Post-Synaptic Density Originated in a Unicellular Ancestor of Choanoflagellates and Metazoans,” BMC Evolutionary Biology 10, no. 1 (2010): 34, doi:10.1186/1471-2148-10-34.
Reut Shema et al., “Enhancement of Consolidated Long-Term Memory by Overexpression of Protein Kinase Mζ in the Neocortex,” Science 331, no. 6021 (March 4, 2011): 1207–1210, doi:10.1126/science.1200215.
Thomas Naselaris et al., “Bayesian Reconstruction of Natural Images from Human Brain Activity,” Neuron 63, no. 6 (September 24, 2009): 902–915, doi:10.1016/j.neuron.2009.09.006.
Kaj Sotala and Harri Valpola, “Coalescing Minds: Brain Uploading-Related Group Mind Scenarios,” International Journal of Machine Consciousness 04, no. 1 (June 2012): 293–312, doi:10.1142/S1793843012400173.
Andrew B. Newberg et al., “The Measurement of Regional Cerebral Blood Flow During Glossolalia: A Preliminary SPECT Study,” Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging 148, no. 1 (November 22, 2006): 67–71, doi:10.1016/j.pscychresns.2006.07.001.
And I'm going to hit the character limit again with another. But the point is...
>>63141400
...the point is...
>>63141443
That compatibilism, or the philisophical stance that determinism and and free will are not mutually exclusive is, in fact, wrong in the face of the fact that there is no interpretation of the words "free will" that is possible. There is no non-coerced agency in your brain, it does not exist, compatibilism is, in a word, wrong.
>>63141543
>in the face of the fact that the strawman interpretation of "free will" that is picked is impossible
ftfy
>>63141610
Then define free will as you see it so I can tell you why that's wrong, too. I've got all night.
>>63141622
Free will is the ability to act according to your own motivations bruv.
Also, your redefiniton of coerced as meaning "caused" is incorrect. When I water my plants, I don't "coerce" them into growing.
>>63141679
That's almost word for word the definition I gave my first year of university. Alright, motivations. What are those? I don't mean yours, personally. Where do your motivations come from?
>>63141712
Obviously motivations are conditioned by your past experience. That is not a rebuttal though.
>>63141736
Oh, of course not, I just want to be sure we're on the same page. And while you didn't really define motivations, just their source, close enough for government work.
Alright, so motivations are, to use strict metaphor, programs self-written by your brain in response to stimulus. It's a good comparison, I rarely see it argued with. And we're talking simple. Your brain gets a stimulus of some kind, compares it to past events, decides the most appropriate response, you take that response. That sound about right, as far as motivations and how they work?
