>play baldurs gate 2
>romance pic related
>reject god essence
>waifu gets killed by poison
>lvl 30 cleric
>she wasnt rezzed
great game but what the fug
Are you talking about the end postscript? Unfortunately Throne of Bhaal is simply awful in the story department and can be seen as the exact time Bioware became hacks.
>>48288601
Yeah. I mean its a fucking lvl 30 cleric done in by poison. Plus the fact that you can't even become a god and take your waifu with you for some reason.
>>48288575
Yep, that one has pissed people off for over a decade now.
The only upside is that Chaarname will then go on an unstoppable rampage throughout the underdark afterward, and I always imagined Uncle Jan telling stories about it the children, juxtaposed with a Paladin elbow dropping Lloth repeatedly.Well, when I don't mod it into a happy ending, anyway
>>48288601
Bioware were always hacks. There merely was a sort of a bell curve where they weren't brave enough to experiment early on and had little to no quality control towards the end.
>>48288575
>Not modding it to have a happy ending
You're a god. Changing a few bits of script should be well within your powers.
>>48288575
If I remember right it was lolth that was behind it so I figure it not too surprising that godpoison could kill her. On the other hand she was essentially a high priestess of shar or whoever it was that she worshipped at that point and I really cant see any deity taking a loss like that lightly.
Throne of Bhaal was poorly written overall; seriously, it felt like a poor man's Highlander. Still, her ending didn't bother me too much because I never gave much of a shit about Viconia to begin with. Being the most specialized cleric in the game doesn't justify you being a cunt. Edwin could get away with it because his tomfoolery was hilarious, but Viconia takes herself too seriously. Plus found Aerie cuter, though her personality almost went too far in the other direction.
At least Viconia is a better character than Anomen....
>>48290217
I see everyone hating on Anomen but I actually really like him. Why do people dislike him so much ?
His bragging is surely insufferable but other NPCs call him out on his shit and you don't even have to buy into it to get his romance. I feel like he gives some pretty nice roleplay opportunities, at least I find it satisfying to interact with flawed characters and be able to point out their flaws to them.
Are people frustrated because he's the only romance for a female option if you don't have the enhanced edition ?perhaps I'm biased because courtly love is my fetish
>>48290359
Bad stats, even after his personal quest success. It's like having that human what's her name from the fighter stronghold. Plus, his personal quest kinda portrays him as a huge douche.
>>48288575
>>48288937
She did live long enough to spend many happy years with charname and even gave him a child iirc
Still sad when you consider how long elves can live, but not a completely bad end. Plus it's forgotten realms, so they are liable to find each other in The Planes.
>>48290642
>It's like having that human what's her name from the fighter stronghold
Nalia. She was redeemed by being a thief/mage, which was pretty fucking amazing actually, since mage spells are busted good in BG2.
>>48292825
She was worse than a comedy relief gnome in both departments.
>>48292960
You shut your whore mouth. Not because Nalia is nice or interesting, but because she's absolutely better than Jan "I can only cast illusions" Jansen.
>>48293002
She's the worst mage in the game by a huge margin, and her thief skills barely hold up until midgame. Which doesn't matter because you're meant to exchange her for Imoen right then or never bother with her in the first place.
>>48293002
Being Gnome Specialist Mage is suffering.
But at least he's not Diviner.
>>48292825
Poor man's imouto.
What bothers me more is the enforced multiculti romance because all the romanceable women are elves and 2/3 of them are brown.
Viconia did nothing wrong.
Nothing.
>>48293050
There's a romance mod with her that wasn't cringy and kinda enjoyable iirc. I aleays call her Nail-Ya, cause she's a qt pie redhead.
>>48288639
What was in Hordes of the Underdark again the reason why you couldn't take your bard/fighter-fu with you yet the kobold was fine?
>>48293222
>romance mods
>>48293507
>implying all mods are Imoen-tier
Also Nalia has Dex 18. Dex 18! Beast in bed!
>>48294112
Viconia has 19.
Just saying.
>>48293345
Because Halaster Blackcloak says so.... that's pretty much literaly it.
>>48294112
Good Lord, no. A whole lot of them are worse.
>>48294149
If I remember right in that engine there's no actual difference between 18 and 19 dex
>>48294187
>pic
jesus christ, some of those are just plain wrong, but most of them are hilarious
>>48294215
It's +some% on all thievery if Thief and +1 to hit with projectile weapons for everyone, but you still get the same AC.
>>48292661
The ending says that the son of Bhaalspawn himself launched a crusade on spiderqueen's demonweb pits. Pretty epic thing for baldurs gate 3
>>48294490
>baldurs gate 3
Get hype, it's coming out right after Half-Life 3.
>>48294513
I want more infinity engine games. But not exactly baldur's gate. Bhaalspawn saga is finished so the series. But damn viconia's ending always gives me hard feels.
>>48294532
I want Planescape Torment with Temple of Elemental Evil engine.
>>48294966
Just a game with real D&D combat with all the rules and no simplifications. ToEE engine was too buggy to even touch it.
>>48295012
What, so you mean actually turn based?
>>48295029
Most likely. I loved ToEE tactics that i could not always apply in my tabletops. (forever gm here)
Hey, I never got to fuck Deekin and you don't see me whining.
>>48295012
Imagine, if you will, a 4E game that actually used the mechanics. Maybe a Final Fantasy Tactics-esque game.
What wasted potential.
>>48295193
My interest in D&D stopped at 3.5. What is that appealing about 4.0 in video games?
>>48295267
It's got some really great in-depth tactical combat mechanics. To such a degree that one of the most common complaints was that it was too "gamey". Combat in 4E is a lot more involved than in any previous (or later!) edition, which is saying something considering the edition it followed - no character will really be just on autoattack all the time, bar the Ranger who has an overpowered at-will attack and honestly is pretty damn boring despite being the "best" class. Most classes actually care about position on the battlefield, everyone has a bunch of options available at all times, healing is limited and thus not as much of a non-brainer as it is in OSR but also effective enough that it's not as useless as in 3E, bunches of stuff.
However, due to unrelated corporate license fuckery, the only 4E game - the Eberron MMORPG - didn't even use the system. The most videogame-like system - "WoW edition" - never actually got a proper videogame.
Which is a real shame! There should really be more turn-based single-player strategy games out there, and being a turn-based videogame means that you don't get the same problems that analysis paralysis gives you in real life - if you spend ten minutes figuring out a turn, you're not wasting anyone's time besides your own.
>>48295429
There was an Eberron MMO? There was that Neverwinter one, but that was only really based on 4e in the worst possible way (the fluff I mean, though I wasn't really a fan of the edition in general)
>>48295429
Didn't Dungeons and Dragons Tactics on PSP use 4e rules?
>>48293345
All those buck-ass betrayals at the end of NWN2 always made me laugh.
>>48294149
>Viconia has absolutely no problem with you fucking hookers, because she knows they'll never match her
Stop it, boner
>>48295736
Nope, it used 3.5. I think it was also released before 4E? That was in '08, right? D&DT came out in '07.
>>48295505
Yeah, Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach, later Eberron Unlimited, now just Dungeons & Dragons Online.
Also Wikipedia says that it's loosely based on 3.5, so go figure. Looks like I was confusing it with Neverwinter, which actually used 4E rules but, from what I've heard, didn't do a particularly faithful adaption of them.
>>48295966
It was sort of an action rpg with rules based on 4e stuff from what I remember.
>>48288575
How the fuck does a character past level 6 even die of poison
>>48290017
Especially considering Shar has a huge vindictive streak.
>>48296002
AD&D poison is save-or-die. Literally Save vs. Death in some editions, although I think AD&D used Death Ray/Poison?
Unless you're an Assassin, in which case only the most expensive poisons are save-or-die and the rest merely do lots of percentage damage.
>>48295860
Nothing in nwn2 made me laugh.
>>48294187
Didn't see best waifu. I'm safe
>>48296002
I guess it depends on how directly the poison came from Lolth. It's still a pretty dumb ending either way, since there's really no good reason explained to us as to why you can't just become a god and take your waifu's with you
>>48288575
Dude Throne of Bhaal is just a long sequence of boss fights for you to get satisfied with your character stats. Don't take it literally.
>>48296688
Pretty much, but at the level Shadows of Amn left you it's not like there was room for much else
>BRO TIER
Keldorn
Korgan
>Backup BRO TIER
Minsc
Edwin
>Creepy Stalker Cougar Tier
Jaheira
>Good for a single playthrough tier
Amonen
Jan Jansen
Neera
>MUAHAHAHAHAAH tier
Sarevok
>Pleb tier waifu tier
Aerie
Viconia
>Literally the most useless companion in any game tier
Cernd
>Romance mod tier
Mazzy
>Not even my sidequests seem to give a shit about me tier
Valygar
>Manly Tears tier
Yoshimo
>Imoen clone tier aka who the fuck are you
Nalia
>Bet you didn't know it was possible tier
Wilson
>Single class rogues are shit tier
Hexxat
>You can't fuck her she's your sister god dammit also only good party rogue tier
Imoen
>OW THE EDGE tier
Dorn
>Only worthwhile extended edition character tier
Rasaad
>>48296796
I don't know about shitty remake characters, but Amonen as anything but shit is just wrong. Also your tier list is confusing. It sounds like a very lateral list
>>48296796
>You can't fuck her she's your sister god dammit also only good party rogue tier
Muh mods.
> Wilson
> Dorn
> Rasaad
Literaly whos?
>>48296891
Isn't the big imoen romance mod sort of rapey? I've only seen one or two screenshots of it and it looked sort of hilariously bad
>>48296911
You do not have to do that, and you're not supposed to.
>>48296911
Basically it's so bad it loop all the way back to hilarious and then it gets even worse...
>>48290359
Personally I disliked him because he seemed like a character out of a cheesy romance novel (same with Kalenko in ME). Courtly love is fine, that over the top shit just gets on my nerves.
Statwise I'm fine with melee priests, though I never paid much attention to him so IDK what his exact stats are.
Also I'm a huge fan of Viconia, I'm fairly fond of Cleric/Mage charnames, and I tend not to mind Aerie or Viconia (I just tend not to have room for them) so Anomen is pretty far down the list for healer-types.
>>48296947
Fair enough I guess. I mean I assume you aren't supposed to tell Aerie that you doubt the kid is yours and she's on her own, but there's still an option to
>>48296911
it could be pretty retardedly bad at times because the author felt the need to add a bunch of really stupid and autistic dialog options but for the most part the ones that progresses the romance weren't too cringy
>>48296843
I rated them laterally based on them as characters. Anomen is worth playing with exactly once because his kit is pretty damn solid for any good party as a backup wielder of things Keldorn no longer needs and you don't use.
I could tier list by usefulness in parties in general.
>S Tier
Korgan
Edwin
Sarevok
Keldorn
>A Tier
Viconia
Jaheira
Imoen/Nalia
Anomen
Dorn
>B Tier
Yoshimo (only because of his fate, A tier before that point)
Haer Dalis
Wilson
Neera
Mazzy
Aerie (A tier if running 4 person or less party)
Minsc
>C Tier
Jan Jansen
Rasaad
Hexxat
>Cernd Tier
Cernd
>>48297002
Misc is probably a little better than that since you can easily spec him towards dual wielding and maces. He's pretty great for clearing undead/vampire rooms and letting the party just sit back. He's kind of meh for Throne though since that stuff is no longer nearly as important
I completely forgot about Cernd, but I don't think I'm the only one
>>48290642
Anomen is one of the most natural flail of the ages carriers in the game. Sarevok and Keldorn both want to wield 2 handed weapons in the later stages of the game. Having a back up fighter with the utility of cleric is not bad in the slightest assuming your character isnt also a fighter. Which it really shouldn't be in this game.
Jaheira + Anomen + Beatstick like Keldorn is all you need for a "frontline". Everyone else can be mages or wield ranged weapons.
>>48297002
Honestly I'd separate Imoen and Nalia into their own entries and combine Imoen and Yoshimo into one, since he runs off right as she rejoins.
I'd also probably swap Jan and Haer'Dalis on that list, though that may be personal preference coming through.
>>48297092
Minsc's problem is that he is easily replaced by Sarevok or Keldorn. And Keldorn has the inquisitor dispel magic which can win you the fight in later stages of the game in only a few rounds because all the later fights are difficult because of mages, not fighters.
Cernd was theoretically supposed to be as bad as he was. It was just that they incorrectly coded his damage resists as a werewolf wrong. So in some circumstances it might be nice to have a character virtually immune to +3 and lower weapons.
But pure druid is garbage much like pure cleric. It's why all the other characters combined it with something else (Jaheira) or with very useful bonuses (Viconia's drow racial bonuses).
Baldur's Gate 1 had some truly awful choices, and I still feel like Cernd is worse than all of those.
anyone else enjoy leading on dorn as a female character
implying id race mix with a shitskin half-orc
>>48297637
Viconia roasts Dorn in a funny way if he proposes to you while you are in relationship with her.
>>48294187
>implying she ever left
You shut your fucking whore mouth, you vapid cunt.
>>48297161
Haer Dalis is basically your only option for a rogue if you want to not have to rush Spellhold (and thus complete most of the game) because you don't want an underlevelled/equipped imoen.
Jan is just borderline useless. Specializing in illusion magic does him no favors.
>>48295012
>ToEE engine was too buggy to even touch it.
Just got here, but someone happens to be touching it in all the right places as we speak
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/project-temple-released.98904/
Tons of bugfixes, way more stable, new features, shit that should be possible but wasn't getting added in (trip motherfuckers with attacks of opportunity fuck yeah!), and If you post about a feature you want or bug that's bothering you, you're very likely to get your fix in the next update.
>>48288937
I vaguely recall Korgan also getting into the underdark rampage by taking over a dwarven clan and tricking them into a war against the drow to fulfill his bloodlust, last seen axing the high priest of lolth in the face. Battlebros 4 lyfe?
>>48296383
Right!!!
>>48294187
>Menstruating Nazi Cunt Bitch
I don't know if I should be angry or amused.
>>48298230
Ahh, right, I forget most people don't just use console commands to bump Imoen's XP up to the same as everyone else's when she rejoins. That would kinda screw things over.
As for Jan, if he's not your only mage the schools he's locked out of aren't a huge loss (Necromancy and ... Evocation?), and he gets an extra spell of each level for whatever illusion spells you want (and it's not too tough to find one of each level that's worth having around).
>>48299882
Not getting Evocation sounds like a deal breaker, since a lot of the good attack spells are there if I remember 2e right. He still gets Haste and such though, right?
>>48299927
Yeah, Haste is Transmutation iirc.
Basically, he doesn't deal damage himself. He buffs the group, summons cannon fodder, debuffs enemies, etc. Plus he can sneak like a motherfucker if you build him that way (sneak around normally, pop Invisibility if he gets spotted, etc).
>>48297002
How exactly are you rating this shit, because Jan Jansen is top fucking tier.
>>48298230
Haer Dalis is a blade, which is borderline useless as a "rogue". Its a Bard specialized as a sort of fighter-mage, worse at combat than that but leveling far faster.
Jan Jansen is an actual thief who doubles as a mage and can stun enemies on hit with his crossbow.
>>48296084
>AD&D poison is save-or-die.
In 1e, only Ingestive D & E and Insinuative D are SOD.
In 2e, it's Types E, F, J, and N.
>Unless you're an Assassin
Assassins use poisons like everybody else, they just get extra special shit past level 9.
>>48296796
>it's a tier with only one person in it list
Strike one
>Pleb tier waifu tier
Strike two
>Jan Jansen not in bro tier
Strike three
Also, while I sympathise with your judgement of Cernd for BG2, the fact that Garret, Quayle, Tiax and Eldoth exist mean that he's not even the most useless companion in the series.
>>48298230
Protip, keep every scroll you find and give them all to Imoen for colossal experience.
>>48302573
At least the ones you mentioned were memorable (aside from Eldoth. No idea who that is).
The bigger reason I never used Cernd is that he was just boring as fuck
>>48294187
>Sakura
>Nigga please
>Not "WORMS"
>>48299954
>>48299927
>>48299882
Jan is only locked out of necromancy, not evocation.
Since necromancy spells are pretty shit in Baldurs Gate, it's no big loss.
>>48293002
Don't you mean Jan "the only good spell I miss out on is horrid wilting' Jansen ?
>>48302612
The whole point is that there's just too much material to work with there. I mean shit, I haven't played F/SN in a while, but I'm pretty sure he mentally compares her to a prostitute when thinking about her level of experience in bed
>>48295429
>>48295267
The closest thing we have to a 4e videogame is Darkest Dungeon. And you know what? I'm okay with that.
>>48302612
>Not "LOST VIRGINITY TO WORM GANGRAPE"
>>48302626
The only useful two I remember are death spell since it's an instant unsummon to monsters (but even then it's not high enough demand that you need every mage to keep it ready) and horrid wilting (which actually does kind of suck to not have). The bigger issue with Jan is he doesn't have 17 int. I think if you give him (and aerie) that int +1 ion stone when he levels he still gets 9th level spells, but it's still kind of meh
![[WhyNot] Robotics;Notes - 08[A7A99128].mkv_snapshot_06.17_[2013.02.24_02.16.19].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/rQsn5ID.jpg "[WhyNot] Robotics;Notes - 08[A7A99128].mkv_snapshot_06.17_[2013.02.24_02.16.19].jpg")
>>48294187
>Aki
>Genki Otaku
There is literally nothing wrong with this.
>>48294187
>drunkard
There are worse things.
>can't kiss you without stabbing your head
Oh no I'll have to do that tilting my head kiss thing whatever will I do.
No blowjobs would've been a better insult desu.
>>48294187
Wait, fryface is on here but revy isn't?
>>48295012
I mainly meant the graphics. They were gorgeous.
>>48294187
>don't even need to look at the image to know my waifu isn't there
Feels good when people don't know about your shit.
>>48294187
>solaufein Romance mod
>Chloe Romance mod
>Flirt Pack
>Saerileth mod
>>48288575
>>48292661
>>48294490
>>48298739
I dont know, I always liked that ending. It is kinda bittersweet. CHARNAME arriving just in time to see his drow lover die after she fought off a bunch of assassins to protect her daughter.
CHARNAME then starts teaching his half-elven daughter everything about Adventuring, Combat, practical use of Magic and Gorilla Warfare, working as Adventurer or Merc and taking his daughter with him on adventures for a few years to give her practice in killing all kinds of shit.
At some point CHARNAME and his Ranger Daughter start drawing more people and more people with a grudge against drow until they unleash a gorilla campaign against drow whenever they show up on the surface only to lead a crusade against them into the Underdark
I mean, lets face it CHARNAMEs half-drow kid is basically god-tier material for a Player Character and/or a villain.
>>48294187
>Chen - only tryhards and cowards go jungle
>Mami - too head strong
>Valentine - has more debt than Greece
FUCKING LOST
>>48294187
>Soulless Asshole
Fuck you too
>>48302626
Jan has the same problems Nalia and Imoen have but worse. He's multiclassed rogue/thief and not dual classed like Imoen. He's also missing both finger of death and horrid wilting. He's not enough firepower as a mage with 17 int, so you usually have to carry around some other mage on top of it. I'd rather get the better Imoen and get a more dedicated mage behind her like Edwin, Neera, or Aerie.
>>48294187
>manly fry face
>cold deceiving ugly Jewish bitch
>bulldyke
Too many of these just state what's so good about them.
Also who's the dirty anus?
>>48303901
>who's the dirty anus
>>48294187
>Seraphim
>closet pervert
>bad thing
This chart is both right and wrong.
>>48303946
Art style looks cool.
>>48294532
You know Pillars of Eternity exists, right?
>>48288575
God-poison. Not quite the same as poison. The fact that you probably converted her away from Shar to neutral or good with the power of the dick probably pissed her off too.
>>48304017
>>48303901
Just a victim of a jackhammer, ignore herDirty Anus doesn't even apply to her, only in the third route does that scene exist. Dumb chart makers.
>>48296796
>Sarevok not in LITERALLY BRO tier
>Jan not in bro tier
>Viconia in pleb waifu tier
>Imoen not in imouto tier
Shit list would not multiplay BG2 with.
>>48302609
Eldoth is the dick who antagonises Shar-Teel to suicidal levels.
>>48302643
Educated prostitute, specifically.
>>48303672
My problem with Saerileth mod is that there's one thing in it that I like, and that's the Order of the Radiant Heart giving you an option for LG characters to reach Brynnlaw and Spellhold, versus playthroughs where you have to side with the Shadow Thieves or Bodhi.
Maybe they were going for a "how much are you willing to compromise" deal, but I kind of would have liked the Paladins to have a bigger role, and that would have been a way to do it.
>>48304282
Not sure how much of a choice it ever is between the shadow thieves and bodhi. Everything about her makes it seem downright stupid to deal with her and I don't even think most evil characters would bother with it at all. The shadow thieves are supposed to be a "legendary" organization and extremely well connected to a lot of goings on.
Like what would allying yourself with Bodhi possibly do? What possible reason would you have to try it unless your character knew what she was? I've played the game many times with good and evil characters but have only ever brought myself to side with her once just to see it.
No Order of the Radiant Heart vs. Shadow Thieves might be a completely different ball game.
>>48304237
Oh, it's a visual novel?
Does it use that kind of artstyle, or is that just fanart?
>>48304051
Unfortunately.
>>48304429It's fate/stay night. Tohsaka Rin specifically. I'm only being nice because I'm drunk and about to eat steak, enjoy
>>48304821
Yeah, I was worried it was F/S. Shame. I've never been able to get into that series.
>>48304348
Allying with Bohdi is one of things that was clearly just not thought through properly, or added due to time constraints.
Also, daily reminder that Irenicus would have won if not for Bohdi going full retard
>>48302872
She is though, under Asuka.
>>48304233
You'd have thought that one of the good deities would throw chaarname a favour and counteract it, to piss off Lloth if nothing else.
>>48304268
Isn't Shar-Teel the crazy chaotic evil one that hates men and tries to duel someone in your party you when you meet? Why wouldn't someone antagonize her
>>48309275
>Why wouldn't someone antagonize her
Well Eldoth has the physical ability of a paper bag for starters.
IIRC He mouths off to all the women in the party for one reason or another.
>>48294187
>someone was autistic enough to make this
>>48309538
where do you think you are
>>48309275
She's the best Thief you can have for Evil party.
Quick question. Am I the only one who calls her Imoutoen?
>>48312945
yes
>>48311657
I'd sooner just use Safana just to skip the dual classing crap, but I also don't think I've ever done an evil run on BG1
>>48312945
I hope so. She even says her own name in her sound clips
>>48313488
It was a pun, I was trying to do a pun.
You should totally try an evil run, if only because it avoids conflict between Edwin and the lesser members of your party.
>>48288575
Your reminder that one of the Baldurs Gate games has a tranny in it. There, I just ruined the whole series for you.
>>48316921
it already caters to my transformation fetish
I have the enhanced edition of the first Baldur's Gate and I couldnt get into it.
Should I give 'er another go?
>>48316921
I take several exceptions to that.
1) as I recall, the tranny was not happy about the change or trying to convince you to accept her the way he/she/xe is.
2) the transformation itself was not really a goal in itself and you're supposed to find a way to reverse it
and most importantly
3) you're assuming other people are as easily "triggered" by this kind of crap as you that they would consider game "ruined" over it rather than just roll their eyes and move on to more interesting or amusing content.
>>48316921
That was more eye rolling stupidity than game ruining.
You took one look, laughed at how hamfisted the inclusion was, 'ad a giggle that the writers didn't even bother playing the first game to find out why it was retarded, then moved on
>>48317592
He's talking about that newer game, not Edwin/a. I wouldn't really touch enhanced edition or siege of dragonspear with a ten foot pole so I don't really know the details, but I think that siege has a transvestite or some sort of wacky pronoun person of some variety in it
>>48318792
A cleric that tells you on the first second you meet him that he was raised a boy but realised he is a girl so he made himself a new name conneting names from many languages of the world. Mizhena. Which actually in one of the south slavic languages means "Manwoman"
>>48316921
>>48318747
It's just the writer of that character not knowing that in FR, everybody has the biology they want to be because they have the magic to make it possible. It is literally a "nobody fucking gives a shit about it" level of care. There's actually a priesthood that requires you to experience both in order to actually be accepted.
>>48319232
now thats what I call good writing, i always knew the BG series was renowned for that
>>48298702
Well I tried it when itcame out. Worked nice in the moathouse section but became even less stablke than a regular Circle of Eight install when i reached the Temple itself. It was literally a freeze and crash festival. I even got all my saves from the temple corrupted. Thats sad because i still want to play my all monk party.
>>48319245
It's hilarious that they were banking on it to pave the way for BG3
>>48317338
You should. Keep backup saves, as it can be pretty mean to a new player. Just roll with it and remember that it is quite unstructured. There's a main quest (its the one with the mines), but otherwise you just do what you want.
