So how does hollywood and D&D get blacksmiths wrong?
>>48236121
>exposed flesh
>>48236121
According to DnD it takes like a year to make a suit of plate armor, which is factually incorrect. Takes like 2 weeks plus change.
>>48236121
I have a little bit of experience in actual blacksmithing. I've not noticed to much difference other then a fantasy aspect to DnD.
>>48236153
That's a bit of an odd point, given that to make plate armor you don't really go to a blacksmith. Plate armor came around because of trip hammers and other powered equipment.
One poor bastard taking iron from a a smelter and turning it into plate armor could take a long, long time.
>>48236121
You can't cast swords in the way they showed in the LotR movies (poured into horizontal, open molds). Or rather, it would be mostly pointless.
I can't really think of anything else.
>>48236357
Village blacksmiths making fancy swords?
>>48236375
I mean, if they knew how they totally could. It's not the most absurd thing that happens in most settings.
>>48236121
>Guy beats a sword with finished hilt a few times with a hammer, stuffs it into a bed of coals for ten seconds without ventilation, then thrust the now glowing red hot blade into water and says it's finished and ready to go.
Pretty much everything about that. Most of the work on a sword is spent grinding and polishing it, after very careful heat treatment. Most of it doesn't even involve a forge.
>>48236153
5E sucks balls with crafting. 300 days to craft a suit of armor? Fuck that. They need to seriously revamp the crafting system, both magical and non, entirely if settings like Eberron ever get published.
Do you realize that as written, the current Magical Item Crafting System states that the Cost to craft magical items is equal to its retail price? That makes creation of magical items Economically unsound. No one would spend time crafting magic items except for the purpose of creating the item to fulfill a specific purpose, which means no one would spend the time to craft a generic +1 sword when they can create a weapon that serves a far more specific purpose to do the job they need.(a bane of Ogre axe, etc)
>>48236357
Well they are orcs, I don't think sauron or saruman really gave to many shits if the swords snapped during use in battle, your long sword is now a short sword or a dagger or a thrown weapon. But it doesn't really matter as they are expendable slaves.
>>48236357
You can if they're bronze.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEWIuyeNp2k
>>48236352
>>48236153
This makes no sense. What, you just beat out some pre-made steel foil and polish it to make plate armor?
>>48236121
>Casting swords
Pure fantasy. Only bronze swords were cast. A broken steel blade would have to be melted down into a billet or ingot and reforged from scratch.
>Blacksmiths wear no clothes for some reason
No brainer. I mean holy shit.
>Blacksmiths have no apprentices for some reason
This idea that a single blacksmith made everything a village could use is pure Hollywood. All blacksmiths, by the time iron was widely available, had apprentices, even if it was just a family member. It's just far too laborious and complicated to do it all by yourself.
Modern blacksmiths can do much more by themselves, but that's only due to pneumatic hammers and better forges.
>"Damascus" blades
This is a minor point, but pattern-welded steels are not "Damascus." They're pattern welded.
>Giant pauldrons
Looking at you Warhams.
>Insanely decorative armor for line infantry
You get boiled leather and a sharp stick and you'll like it.
>>48236121
Every village blacksmith and his dog knows the ancient art of forging legendary blades it seems.
Though going to the local smithy and being told;
"Well m'lud, I mostly just make hinges and brackets fer the most part. Fixin' up tools is the rest. Wouldn't know 'ow to make a sword proper-like what those fancy swordsmiths do. Could do you a lovely knife though, good fer skinning."
I guess just isn't as fun as having a smith who once trained under dwarven masters in his youth or having to trek miles just to get a decent longsword made.
>>48236704
>>Blacksmiths wear no clothes for some reason
Because they'd be sweating like an ice cube in a sauna. Of course they wouldn't wear more than the leather protective gear.
>>48236677
I don't think the other anons have any idea what they're talking about.
Steel plate was certainly available before powered machinery, at least the 13th or 14th centuries.
>>48236716
Wearing thick insulation would keep them both cooler and safer. Exposing bare flesh to the roasting hot and dry air filled with sparks isn't helping anyone.
The biggest thing being that "blacksmiths" are very generic iron workers, and would have very little knowledge on how to make a sword. They could make axe and basic spear heads, though. But their main trade would be door hinges, shovels, gates, horseshoes, etc.
Armorsmiths make armor.
Swordsmiths make swords.
etc.
You don't go to a General Practice doctor for a hand surgery, you go to a hand specialist.
>>48236723
A cursory search shows that trip hammers showed up in Europe by the 12th century.
>>48236740
Shit, I thought they meant "powered" in the modern sense.
>>48236425
>magic item economy makes no goddamn sense
Well maybe magic is fantastic and has value beyond simple gold ; ^ ) or all the magic items were made in a simpler time when people loved their work and didn't need promises of money to do every little thing ( < :
But actually, I'm with you. Everyone was gushing about this kind of crap around release. Not sure why though, maybe it was the "roleplay-not-rollplay" crowd being sick of 3.5's magic item treadmill.
By the book, the only way you could make a profit off magic item creation is to either crank out basic health potions (which IIRC are made using the regular crafting rules), or keep trying to sell your stock until you get the "shady motherfucker rolls up offering 150% of base price, no questions asked" result. So its' basically a question of whether you want to be the most boring potion crafter ever, or make your entire living by selling to really scary people who refuse to tell you what they'll do with your product.
>>48236704
>boiled leather
That's a meme, Gambeson's more likely, much cheaper and about as protective.
>>48236740
>>48236762
So, what, plate armor can only exist when you have waterwheeled-powered hammers for a smithy?
>>48236795
Just houserule your setting's economy. The static DMG economy has never worked. Case in point,
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/15,000,000_Gold_a_Day
>>48236648
The operative words were 'open molds.'
The molds in the LotR are just flat pans cut vaguely into the shape of a sword. It wouldn't get you a desirable product.
>>48236795
>which IIRC are made using the regular crafting rules
Nope. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/14/i-want-to-make-a-potion-of-healing/
5e's crafting is meant for adventurers with a few days of downtime. The gameworld doesn't need to follow the present rules logic (and shouldn't), by the devs' own admittance.
>>48236730
what he ^ said
blacksmithing is a lot like pan frying bacon because of the sparks. it's hot work yes but that's one of the many reasons why all smithies had waterbarrels or their equivalent
>>48236811
You have to create sheets of metal that are relatively uniform and that have the capacity to be worked without breaking. That's hard.
Note that up until plate armor most "heavy armor" was made up of interlocking plates, each one forged individually. For a full suit of contiguous armor you need a large piece of contiguous steel.
>>48236704
>>Giant pauldrons
>Looking at you Warhams.
>not looking at Warcraft
Up your pauldron game, Anon.
>>48236716
Journeyman Blacksmith here. 6127 hours over the course of 4 years here.
In my shop, I wear denim jacket and jeans under a heavy leather apron and welder's gloves and usually a full welder's mask when working large pieces over an inch in diamater. The clothing protects from sparks and the god-awful heat. My forge is hot enough to melt moderate amounts of steel without too much issue. That is fucking hot at over 2500*F. its way more comfortable to use the heavy-loose clothing then to get proximity burns.
>>48236839
Weren't those just to get blanks that you then grind, polish, and finish?
>>48236883
Where at and how much to train? I've been unable to find one on the east coast.
>>48236898
Steel doesn't really work that way. It's actually way cheaper and easier to just make a quick forged blade than to cast one.
>>48236704
>>48236866
>not looking at Warmahordes
>>48236865
Any European examples?
Skyrim actually has a really accurate depiction of blacksmiths, as shown in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmYQMWNJgWo
>>48236927
Of what?
>>48236921
What's the difference between a forged blade and a molded one?
>>48236425
That was intentional. One of the biggest gripes about 3.5 was that one ended up playing their equipment list, rather than their character.
>>48236934
Of plate armor made up of smaller plates.
>>48236677
Nope. You take a sheet of steel, cut it, shape it, harden it, attach rivets, straps, buckles, join it with other segments, polish it, possibly engrave it, then it's ready to go.
If you have to start by making sheet steel with hand tools, it's a fucking nightmare.
>>48236811
No. You can also make it if you have a rolling mill or other facility able to produce sheets of steel. Powered hammer mills were just the first ones to really do it.
>>48236865
Exactly that. Drawn wire and small, easy to forge plates where the primary armor materials before trip hammers.
>>48236898
Naw. Castable iron/steel is way too brittle to be used for a sword.
>>48236943
>Forged
A forged blade is made from one or more pieces of metal that have been heated and worked over an anvil or some other smithing implement. That's really it. A forged blade would also be tempered.
>Molded
A molded blade would be like the kind you see in Lord of the Rings or Conan. You would heat steel until it was liquid and pour it into a mold. What you get is a crapshoot, since carbon content and micro-fractures within the steel would be random.
Forging, particularly pattern welding or FOLDING MIRRION TIMES, makes the carbon content of a blade more or less consistent, and results in a stronger blade because of it.
It's the difference between trying to break two sticks held together and twenty sticks held together. The more layers you have, the stronger material you have.
>>48236911
Not that guy, but Southern Illinois University has a really good Blacksmithing program.
>>48236121
Every blacksmith makes swords and armor.
>None of them make nails, plowshares, spades or other tools.
>>48236943
Steel isn't castable without sophisticated, modern technology. Cast iron can't be used to make a sword.
>>48236971
Oh yeah. The most famous is probably the brigandine.
Each one of those little rivets you see is holding a short piece of steel on the inside. I'll post an interior photo.
>>48236989
>heat steel
*heat iron, sorry.
>>48236911
Umm, there are some masters out that way that i have heard of, but really 90% of it is practice on your own. I got my apprenticeship at a local historical site. did my 500 hours and then bought most of my stuff at farm auctions. I have about 10k into my shop and have learned on my own how to make most armors and shit myself through trial and error.
I have examples of scale, chain and plate armors that i have done, however none are convienently located for me (gotta lot traveling).
Your best bet is starting with youtube. there are a lot of really good tutorials on there. Knives are the easiest way to get into blacksmithing.
>>48237013
>>48236934
Roman Lorica segmentata, Transitional Period Coat of Plates/Brigandine, Carolingian Lamellar.
>>48237027
>Knives are the easiest way to get into blacksmithing.
So Skyrim was right?
>>48236979
>Nope. You take a sheet of steel, cut it, shape it, harden it, attach rivets, straps, buckles, join it with other segments, polish it, possibly engrave it, then it's ready to go. If you have to start by making sheet steel with hand tools, it's a fucking nightmare.
But that only takes two weeks for a full suit? Is that from doing it every working hour?
>>48237013
I've always been a huge fan if brigandine and llamelar armor. Hell, my old SCA armor was brigandine.
It was hardened plastic and double-layer heavy canvas rather than felt and steel, but the style was the same.
>>48237000
Why can't you cast iron to make a sword? Can't you cast a dagger or a spearhead or an arrowhead?
>>48236989
Hammer forged steel has the stresses worked out of it, carbon distributed more or less evenly, and quite importantly you don't need to liquefy steel to make it.
Melting steel takes a fuckton of energy. Liquid steel also has an annoying tendency to shrink a lot as it cools, making casting much harder, and the alloying agents can separate.
Oh, and remember how it changes size a lot a sit cools? If it cools at an uneven rate huge amounts of stress can build up inside. When taken out of a mold it might sit there a moment, then explode into fragments.
It's a giant pain in the ass to cast steel now. It was impossible before the 1940s.
>>48237050
If you have access to sheet metal, a full shop, and some assistants (assuming medieval period), you might actually need less time.
>>48237037
Isn't lorica more Llamelar than plate or brigandine?
>>48237058
Because it would shatter or crack. Iron is actually relatively brittle.
>>48237072
Lamellar and brigandine are very, very similar.
>>48237063
>Hammer forged steel has the stresses worked out of it
That's what tempering is for, as I understand it. If you just drop a forged blade into a bucket of water there's a good chance it will deform or even shatter. There's still plenty of stress under hammer forged steel.
>>48236133
>Wearing clothes on top of leather while working in a room with a fire hot enough to melt steal.
There are rarely any sparks from hammering steel as there is hardly anyting coming of it. The biggest danger is overheating and smoke inhalation when smithing indoors as you need to keep the fire out of the elements while also venting smoke.
>>48237087
What about cold forging?
>>48237058
>Cast iron sword
Again, think of the stick analogy. It's easier to break a single stick or one or two sticks held together than it is to break a bundle of sticks. A cast iron sword would be of inferior quality, since it would be randomly rigid and wouldn't flex at all like good steel would.
>Spearheads and arrowheads
Do not need to flex in order to do their jobs. A sword does, and even a dagger is better off forged than cast.
>>48237031
>>48237013
But that's not what people mean when they say "plate armor." That's just studded leather.
>>48237050
Depends. If you've got good tools you can likely turn out a simple suit in 12-20 hours of work, or about two days. More complicated armor harness took more work.
>>48237058
That's a good question. Cast iron is very hard and brittle, with poor shock resistance. It can take a moderate edge and can be used for a knife, arrowhead or spearhead, but used to make something the shape of a sword would be very fragile and poor quality compared to a steel blade.
>>48237122
Cold forging uses metal that is already tempered. It's flexible and strong, so you can beat on it to deform it and you only need to temper it a final time at the very end of the process. And "cold forging" still uses heat, just not as much.
Cold forging is more for raising armor. This is a good example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJb71Q5IO-o
>>48237063
Cooling steel and metals is the hardest and most critical factor in making it. If you forge a big thick bar of steel, say 20 inches across, the outside will always cool quicker than the inside unless steps are taken to lower their temperature at the same time.
>>48237132
Lmao. That is NOT studded leather.
If you're stuck on D&D terms, it'd be splint or scale armor
>>48237069
>>48237135
Are we still talking about medieval forges, or modern ones?
>>48237132
>Studded leather
u havin a giggle m8
>>48237132
Who said brigandine was plate armor? Anon specifically said "heavy armor". Which I assume to mean non-mail, non-leather/textile based armor.
It was, also, the technological father of plate armor. Small plates become larger plates as the technology to create them becomes more wide spread.
>>48237043
seriously. you can go grab a 3/16th inch thick piece of iron, take it to a grinder and start your work. its a cheap knife, but it can still hold an edge. you work up from there.
>>48237162
Medieval forges. Sheet metal was available in the Late Medieval period, so that's where you see those fantastic knightly plate armor sets.
>>48237162
>assuming medieval period
Are you retarded?
>>48237181
Shut up, dude. He was asking a legitimate question.
>>48236648
That's either horizontal nor open
>>48237013
>>48237031
Cool, are you a LARPer, my good sir?
Show us your sword! =)
>>48236999
Way I have it is that weaponsmiths are more common and basic weaponsmiths knowledge is more common in D&Dland because of all the fucking goblins, owlbears, kobolds, dire-everything and misc. bandits that inhabit the landscape.
The local village blacksmith still can't do shit with dragonscales, maintain dwarven or exotic equipment or the like but alongside learning how to make knives, hinges and plows a common blacksmith at least knows how to make a decent sword and hand axe, even if they rarely do so.
So most of the starting weapons in the players handbook is purchasable from most smiths.
That said, once players get into the swing of things, finding a specialist smith to order a mithril falchion inlaid with magicite or whatever is it's own side quest.
>>48237192
No, he wasn't.
His answer to his question was DIRECTLY IN THE POST HE LINKED. You cannot get much more retarded
>>48237162
Oh, that's early modern/late medieval production rates. You'd get faster in a modern machine shop.
If you had jigs, forms and pre-planned work you could turn out two suits an hour from a modern machine shop, though you'd be spending a few weeks building tools to make it. A proper tooled up factory could, of course, produce at an arbitrary rate.
>>48237197
Nope, just an enthusiast.
>>48237207
You don't attract people to the hobby by being an asshat. He misread, or he missed it. It doesn't mean he's stupid. Stop being a dick.
>>48237072
Lamellar is lots of little rectangle arranged in rows and tied together, Segmentata is long strips of metal. The pic I posted is pretty much a later variant of Segmentata that is either called Coat of Plates of Brigandine depending on the source.
>>48237114
This anon >>48236883 begs to differ
Also, I worked with a guy who was getting his degree in Blacksmithing and he said always wore a lot of clothing.
Y'know, this thread makes me pine for more Bronze Age stuff. Steel strikes me as much more difficult to work with, even if it's mechanically far superior in most applications. Bronze you can just shape into the most ridiculous and fantastical shapes/designs so much easier.
>>48237158
>>48237165
Whenever I read "Studded Leather" I always assumed it was just boiled leather backed with metal plates and the rivets on the leather are just there to hold the metal plates in place.
>>48237226
It does make him stupid, if he can't even read the goddamn posts
he is a literal retard, and i hope he kills himself in his retardation when attempting to fucking cast a sword
faggots like him should be smothered to death by their mothers before they learn to speak
>>48237234
I really love Bronze Age weapons and armor design, but it just never fits the Middle Ages type of society that is popular in fantasy RPGs.
>>48237063
the trick to making cast steel is to not quench it quickly. Cast it into a heated mold that sits at around 1500 degrees F and wait a couple hours for it to solidify. Then take it out carefully and place it into a salt bath for a couple hours. Finally, once it has worked its way down to around 500 degrees, you quench it. this creates a decent blank that was cast and should only need a final grind and polish. I have made several moderate sized- double edged blades (short swords) with this method and they work great and hold a great edge. I do this shit in my shop about 3 times a year, because it does take a fuckton of work, but i can put out a blade from raw material in the space of two days instead of three to five days.
>>48237234
The real problem with bronze was at the time it was common it was fantastically expensive. Like.. the guy on the left there would be wearing a million dollars of armor made from bronze.
This leads to interesting stories. You could tell people were important and wealthy by their kit. A hero that fell in battle would result in battles fought to recover their arms and armor.
>>48237284
That sounds like a gigantic amount of work that would make me look over at a press about a dozen times and think "why are I not doing this the easy way?"
>>48237264
TRIGGERED
>>48237286
True, the majority of guys on a Bronze Age battlefield would probably be shirtless or wearing some light textile based armor at best. But this shit is just so dope.
Plus, by the late Bronze Age you start seeing bigger armies equipped with mostly bronze. Greek hoplites had a pretty decent panoply.
>>48237284
Could you make a bomb from hot steel and water that you could conceivably turn into a trap in a dungeon?
>>48237264
This is some top grade aspergers
>>48237262
>Studded Leather: This armor is made from tough but flexible
leather (not hardened leather as with normal leather armor) reinforced
with close-set metal rivets.
This is the actual description from the PHB. Brigandine would be much better protection that just a +3.
>>48237338
Yeah but that just makes no sense. It's like saying if you put on a shirt and glued on quarters it'd be good armor.
>>48237326
Until the city-states bankrupted themselves in the Peloponnesian Wars and you see a shift to the Linothorax.
>>48237326
what an amazingly gay suit of armor
its super fabulous
>>48237332
Well, if you have anything that is 10 kilos at 2000+ degrees you can kill the shit out of everyone in a hallway by dropping it into water.
Live steam is no joke.
>>48237359
wat
>>48237326
How could they even afford that armor at the end of the Bronze age?
>>48237359
Yeah, we all know that. But D&D being what it is, they invented a useless type of armor. Actual Brigandine/Coat of Plates is pretty good stuff.
>>48237388
Like, that description is that the leather just has heads of metal driven through it to reinforce it, right? It's not that much metal nor is it very thick.
Since people talking about Bronze, I figure this is the best place for my question.
What are/would be the major factors preventing the creation and use of Bronze Full Plate? Would it be viable in a setting where decent enough grade iron is large enough quantities would be super rare?
How easy or hard would it be to produce, arm, and repair such suits at large enough quantities?
>>48237326
>>48237371
Yep. Iron weapons weren't acutely better then bronze, they just cost about 1/1000th the price. Iron age tribes steamrolled people by giving all the boyz choppas.
>>48237400
>studded leather armor
>>48237414
As has also been mentioned, it's prohibitively expensive. Bronze is great stuff because you can really easily (comparatively) make full plate armor with it. It's just not that easy to make and get bronze in the first place compared to iron.
Though, I'm not really sure about that. I've heard it before, but then you have stuff like the Boxer of Quirinal and other full size bronze statues being made. Along with shitloads of bronze everyday items.
>>48237414
Bronze was fabulously expensive and the armoring technologies were a bit limited. Though large plates of bronze could be produced and shaped, how to fit them to a body required a lot of experimentation.
It's not that hard to work with, and would be easier then steel to make bronze full plate. If copper and tin were extremely common, they'd dominate battlefields, even if iron was available, until the advent of good steel working technologies.
>>48236925
>pauldrons clang shut over his head to deflect incoming arrows
>>48237448
Bronze was crazy expensive. Most statues were made from very thin layers of it over wood, and tools made from bronze were vital for many trades and very expensive to buy. Part of the reason master craftsmen were respected and able to get a lot of people to work for them.
>>48237414
Bronze is made by combining Copper and Tin, which are usually not found near each other, so it costs a ton in transport fees before you even start working the stuff. That being said there is historical precedence for wealthy elite forces to use large amounts of Bronze armor.
>>48237484
Ah that's right. I forgot most bronze statues are hollow.
>>48237485
>>48237414
>>48237484
whats the difference between bronze and brass
>>48237499
those guys look like Zoroastrian Persians
>>48237371
In defense of Linothorax, it could be argued that it was better for Hoplites than bronze breastplates. It was lighter, protected well enough from glancing blows and slashes, and was massively cheap. To protect against everything else, they had their shields.
>>48237510
They're Parthians, a semi-nomadic tribe that conquered a lot of the eastern part of the old Achaemenid Persian empire from Alexander's successors. They also gave the Romans one of the worst defeats that they ever experienced at Carrhae.
>>48237502
Bronze is copper and tin alloyed. Brass is copper and zinc.
Bronze is heavier, harder, and generally much tougher than brass. It's a duller and less like gold compared to brass.
Brass is lighter, more ductile, and is more suited to decorative or light use stuff. It's a lot more lustrous and is often used as a gold stand in.
>>48237542
Ah ha, so they ARE Zoroastrian Persians!
>>48237550
i thought zinc and tin were synonymous, whats the difference?
>>48237551
No, but they are culturally, geographically, and even genetically similar. Calling them Persians isn't correct, no matter how you slice it.
>>48237567
A quick google search brings me to an article on the holy roman empire, which claims otherwise
>>48237567
Calling a Parthian a Persian, and vice verse, would generate about the same reaction as mixing up Russian and Ukrainian. Ie: You're likely to get stabbed.
>>48237557
What? Zinc(Zn) (element 30) and Tin(Sn) (element 50) are completely different.
>>48237557
You better be pulling my chain here anon.
>>48237577
I mean, two thousand years ago yeah. I'm not sure anyone in the world still identifies as Parthian.
>>48237578
??? what do those numbers mean?
>>48237581
im not, i seriously thought they were the same thing
>>48237557
No. Holy shit chirst, no.
>>48237614
>what do those numbers mean?
American education everyone
>>48237614
So does your country just not have science education or are you ten years old?
>>48237642
>implying
im Iranian
>>48237541
Oh, I wasn't saying anything against the Linothorax at all.
https://www.uwgb.edu/aldreteg/Linothorax.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ERSx1o8wwk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qyGge-laQY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysi1DTkFXR8
>>48237651
I still blame the Americans for ruining your country.
>>48237654
Man, linothorax really is some neat stuff. Is there any reason it was never used extensively but later European powers for arming their militaries?
>>48237681
>implying
Iran could destroy great satan within months if we so desired
We lasted 130 replies without /pol/b8, whoa
>>48237712
Could we just transition into an arms and armor thread then?
>>48237701
>implying
>>48237723
Aye, that'd be good
>>48237739
I'll post what little I have on my phone.
Would a suit of armor made of today's most advanced materials with the most advanced techniques really be much better than the plate armor of old?
i know for a fact that modern body armor issued to solders is objectively shittier than the plate of old when it comes to moving around because it's mass produced crap, but i dont mean something like that
>>48237761
>titanium/aluminium armor not better than some steel shit
>>48237761
Yes, yes it would.
Steel quality alone has sky rocketed over the last hundred or so years. A modern sword would physically bite into most medieval swords. Modern steel armor would be resistant in the same way.
Unless you're talking about making armor out of bullet proof composites. I'm not sure that's possible, and it would be outrageously heavy.
>>48237799
I dunno. Linothorax made with Kevlar and synthetics replacing the cloth and leather would be pretty dammed effective against most ancient weapons.
>>48237681
And it's stylish as fuck.
I'm guessing the rise of Mail armor probably did it in. The Greeks were really the only ones to use it, and once the Romans took over, their Legions mainly used Mail, so it probably just got left by the wayside.
>>48237821
Most definitely, but I was more talking about a suit of armor made of the hard plates they put in rigid bullet proof armor.
>>48236931
You won this round, Todd.
>>48237761
Steel is still king for most of these applications. There really isn't a metal that does what steel does better today or for the foreseeable future.
>>48237550
Note that bismuth can be used as a substitute for tin.
>>48237416
"Iron" weapons weren't actually made of pure iron; they were a low grade of steel, which was better than bronze.
>>48236999
>Adrianne Avenicci
>>48237862
They'd hold a tip better and be less likely to bend, but primarily they were just cheaper.
Would it be feasible for adventurers to be equipped with bronze arms and armor in a setting where steel is only just being introduced?
>>48237890
That depends onhow wealthy they are.
>>48237835
Aren't those ceramic plates designed to break on the first significant impact they face? Sounds pretty shite for a situation where you might be in sword-range of the same person for very long.
>>48237906
You get steel ones as well.
>>48237906
Or, you don't use ceramics for your darn armor
you use advanced steel making techniques or some shit
>>48237723
Arms and Armor you say?
>>48236704
>looking at warhams,when fantasy has almost 0 oversized pauldrons,except a few orcish ones
>and 40k was made to be as over the top as possible
>>48237930
>>48237940
im really erect
>>48237926
You'd just make old style armor with better quality steel, ballistic plates are overkill if you're not facing modern firearms.
>>48237898
What if copper and tin are plentiful because of divine intervention?
>>48237952
>>48237031
>>48237013
why didnt they put the plates on the outside?
shouldnt you try to protect the stuff holding the plates together?
>>48237934
Sigmarines.
>>48237959
i never asked about ballistic plates in the first place
>>48237968
Because then there would be more edges to get stuff under, and the plates would actually be more likely to get knocked off.
>>48237982
makes sense
>>48237964
it took that guy so long to draw his weapon, he would be shot by the time he finished drawing his shotgun
>>48236133
here ill show you a modern blacksmith that likes to keep his shirt off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTb4wn9VJ6Q
>>48236843
But if we can't bitch about the rules in an autistic fashion, what will we do?
>>48236357
the opening credits with the "cast steel" sword in conan the barbarian always bugged me
>>48237577
So, of the various people who ruled a 'Persian' empire, which ones were actually 'Persian'? Just the Achaemenids?
>>48237962
Well, in Glorantha, they give all the smelting a miss.
Most metals are made from the bones of dead gods, who died in wars before Time began. Bronze comes from the bones of Storm Gods, who were plentiful, and loved to fight. So it's all over the damn place, to be mined and smithed. There's *some* iron (a secret of the Dwarves or something), but it's mainly a rare secret weapon.
>>48238088
Technically, the parthians as well
They're all culturally iranian
>>48238114
how to dodge cum
>>48238116
So, the aforementioned 'Parthians aren't Persian' thing is crap?
>>48238114
Did they ever make armor from iron during the Iron Age?
>>48237359
Coin armor is a real historical thing.
>>48238137
That...doesn't look very effective. Cost-effective neither.
>>48238019
He's not a blacksmith though, he's a welder.
>>48238019
That's not a blacksmith, really. He's a guy with a workshop, some grinders, a plasma cutter and a bit of creativity.
>>48236797
>>boiled leather
>That's a meme, Gambeson's more likely, much cheaper and about as protective.
Good point with the gambeson and various cloth based armors, but we really should keep in mind that armies were very different from area to area an "era" to "era" (dark ages, early-, late-medieval, renaissance, pre-modern).
Banderial armies indeed had a peasant conscript element, however said peasants could carry very different stuff, from improvised arms & armor through hand-me-down mail to actual munitions grade plate.
The later was a thing and pretty common when you finally had big armies thanks to the military revolution.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Revolution)
>>48238221
>dark ages, early-, late-medieval
so medieval and medieval ages?!
>>48238167
Why wouldn't it be cost-effective? You do realize that before fiat currency, the value of a coin was equal to its weight in metal, right? Coins literally represented the value of their raw material.
>>48237228
Naked Smith anon here
Not going to argue with him but will say he said he had an Apprenticeship, a formal education in which they must follow the mind-boggling array of health and safety set by a woman who could not tell a ball-peen from a tac hammer.
I've not got anywhere near the experience he says he has but there is a massive difference between forging the sword and creating the correct alloy to forge it from.
I've worked at a furnace before, while proxy burns are indeed real and painful, air is a terrible terrible conductor of heat and distance between feeling the fire itself and the heat radiating in the air can be no more than a few inches. They are easily avoided, especially when you have the correct equipment to avoid you standing by the forge.
With the right tools, there is no reason you could work in jeans and a black smithing apron, if you did that in a place like Texas, Florida, California, you would be in serious danger of dehydration and heat exhaustion. Might I enquire to the location of your work?
>>48238247
It gets weirder. While the military revolution is already happening in Western Europe, in Eastern Europe you still have banderial armies, meaning you just call you vassals and they in turn bring their own vassals too... but then you have weird stuff like Saxon, Jasz or Kun "peasants" who were free people (instead serfs) in return for doing military duty.
History is weird and doesn't happen at the same "rate" or going in the same direction everywhere regardless what Sid Meier's games would imply.
>>48236357
Isengard armies use distinctively flat swords, exactly what you'd expect a molding process like this to produce, as opposed to the more typical forged swords of the heroes. I don't think it's explicitly stated in the movies, but the books make occasional reference to how terrible the quality of orc equipment is.
>>48238311
implication was that only retards use "dark ages" term and only double retards use it in same sentence as medieval age like it's two different times
What's the name of those helmets with faces inlaid in them? I've tried googling iron mask helmet, but that just gives you some fucking paintball masks, and I know it isn't a Death Mask. made out of metal, sculpted and all that.
>>48236357
I think part of the point of the casting is that the armies of Isengard and Mordor are in part supposed to be representative of industry and the threat it posed to the more traditional way of life practised by the other "good" races.
>>48238412
Grotesque helmet.
>>48238412
>Google-fu
>medieval helm with detailed face
>Literally first thing I googled
>>48238357
OK. Let's get pedantic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)#Modern_academic_use
>Since the Late Middle Ages significantly overlap with the Renaissance, the term "Dark Ages" has become restricted to distinct times and *places* in medieval Europe.
/me goes off into the corner to hide in shame...
>>48238420
No, Tolkien did not write allegory.
>>48237203
>basic weaponsmiths knowledge is more common in D&Dland because of all the fucking goblins, owlbears, kobolds, dire-everything and misc. bandits that inhabit the landscape.
This. We have a medieval landscape where your local priest can cure disease and wounds, so instead of dying in childbirth or losing 3 kids to plague, you get attacked by orcs, or lose 2 kids to goblins and one to a hag.
>>48238516
Yes he did.
See, two can play at this game.
>>48236704
>widespread use of boiled leather
>not gambeson
>>48238447
>>48238433
thanks!
>>48237338
For all your realistic armor needs in D&D, here's something.
How come only white people ever got gud at making armor and weapons?
>>48237197
I am a LARPfag however and I can testify with personal experience on how long it takes to craft stuff.
A coat of plates - which would be an earlier model brigandine with larger plates would take me about 1-2 days to make by myself in a modern workshop.
A pair of spaulders(shoulder armor) took me a day. Mind you - they would not be very well formed and polished, I'm an amateur.
Simple shinguards and plate bracers would also take me 1 day to make.
>>48238971
Because we got gud at slaughtering each other. So we had to get good at protecting ourselves.
>>48236375
You don't neex to live in a super city to make quality. Some amazing blades were made by shit eating barbarian celts.
>>48238971
Errr..., other than plate everyone else made pretty good armor. The Saracen knight in (mail) armor *was* a real thing.
>>48239016
More like European geography facilitated fragmented states over big empires, hence you had lots more warfare and war related innovation...
...however the fact that the Industrial Revolution happened in Europe was *not* a given.
At the time, Chine could've been just as easily considered the most "advanced" state on Earth.
>>48238999
Remember that the first time you do anything it's slow as fuck.
Think of the first time you changed your oil, built a computer or cooked dinner.
>>48238999
this is how much time it takes to hammer out an elbow guard, by hand
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9619JlEdMW4
>>48239100
so like an hour?
>>48239127
I don't know, it's magic and fuck or something right? I don't watch soap opera.
>>48239127
So, wait, what does he do, he heats up a sword, then... pours some molten metal into a mold then burns a rug... so?
>>48236832
except its explained in the very page you linked why that doesnt work
>>48236357
Isengard weapons were cast, beaten roughly into shape and then sharpened.
>>48239127
Expecting anything resembling sense from Game of Thrones is a waste of effort.
The laughable combat and armour design should have made that clear.
The Hound is the best part of that show in my opinion.
You can't breed super soldiers in the ground like angry potatoes either, but Saruman does it.
Don't forget that Saruman was a disciple of Aule, who knows what fancy metal he uses for Uruk Hai weaponry
Holy shit, all those documents I saved finally have a use.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ur4xxj41z8oopad/Metallurgy_of_Steel_for_Bladesmiths_%26_Others_who_Heat_Treat_and_Forge_Steel_-_By_John_D._Verhoeven_%282005%29.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/download/0ljm1c37hasngtn/The_Knight_and_the_Blast_Furnace.pdf
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/9ga0mf40n08n9/Wootz
Hopefully someone will find them useful.
>>48237359
>>48239127
Good. I dislike too much realism and the more butthurt HEMAfags are, the better.
>>48239428
>I dislike too much realism
Why?
>>48239445
Because then you end up overcomplicating the game. It's simpler for B, S, and P types of damage to only have a few situations with DR/damage type or a few environments where one or two types will be disadvantaged and to be the same otherwise. Having each armor have different AC bonuses/DR bonuses vs each kind makes it one heck of a mess.
>>48239471
Oh, right, fair enough. I thought you meant in fantasy in general.
>>48239445
If I want realism, I watch a documentary, not fiction.
>>48239486
You're acting like realism and fiction are binary choices, there is a sliding scale here.
Fiction without any realism whatsoever is just incomprehensible nonsense.
>>48238221
The arab spring made me start to question the idea of tying up with a neat and tidy bow military technology in 'irregular' periods (no standing army and all that). It's not just this because you look at other periods of warfare or civil unrest in the 20th/late 19th century or even textual accounts from earlier eras and you get a sense of things being a lot more DYI or irregular than we give credit in our modern statistical minded present. How ragged and worn men were as late as the Napoleonic era after some campaigning, using looted boots and clothing and one case of Revolutionary French being remarked as 'naked' with just their underclothing/smallclothes on.
Not suggesting leather was used in any measure of abundance as holywood will have you think but I could definitely see tribal/barbaric peoples wearing some hide jerkin fur coat or just a really thick woolen vest as 'protection'. After all, again in the Nappy era (I'll cite the specific reference if need be) they'd swing their rolled up blanket/bedcloth over on their shoulders to form an impromptu cuirass.
>>48239503
Sorry I meant leather in a solid form. Cuir boille and all that. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt it was used extensively in lamellar and scale and so on.
>>48239498
>whatsoever
How does that fit in in the context of the reforging/-casting of swords, something which most viewers have no fucking clue about and don't care either?
The only people who are butthurt about this shit are neckbeard faggots and I, for one, am glad if it annoys the hell out of them.
>>48238221
>>48238311
>>48239503
Of course there was irregularity throughout history. But on the whole, leather armor is just nowhere near as cost effective as cloth.
Which of course does not mean that no one ever used it, as plenty of people do things that are not cost effective, it's just not nearly as popular for people to be wearing leather as hollywood and fantasy writers make it out to be. Almost as bad as the "drag your serfs to war with you" trope.
>>48238263
Southern Illinois, the upper edge of the US subtropical zone. It's hot and humid as fuck here.
>>48238412
>>48238433
There's also the steel facemasks used by Hellenistic kingdoms, Romans, and Russians.
>>48238971
Seriously?
>>48239127
Shits magic yo, don't have to make sense.
>>48238971
And again.
>>48236357
Isengard and Mordor operated with a level of "human" wave tactics which would make Russia and China feel inadequate. What else are you going to do if you're trying to fully equip an army numbering in the tens of thousands- almost all in some form of plate and using swords or long pikes- in a matter of months or a few years?
>>48236999
They probably do, you just don't care because what party needs a plow?
>>48238005
>drawing on a drawn gun
opinion, and all further opinions discarded.
>>48239619
>>48239645
that's nowhere near as good as plate
>>48238583
He said he didn't. It's fantasy, with people primed for allegories finding them.
>>48238763
That PDF is pretty interesting, does anyone have part 1? I guess it's about weapons?
>>48236948
As someone who still plays 3.5 every so often, you need the fucking equipment to do anything at level appropriate challenges.
It is glaringly obvious when you have dms that like to run low magic worlds and use magic enemies.
>>48238311
How is that weird?
Serfs being called up for military service at all would be the unusual kind. That would be an emergency measure if it happened at all. Its freemen being liable for military service as a result of that freedom which is the default.
Of course peasants is not a very useful term since it conflates free and unfree people.
>>48240031
Coming up here:
>>48239445
He wants people who actually know stuff to be butthurt, he is either mentally stunted or an asshole.
>>48240093
Actually no, it wasn't that unusual to call up serfs too, hence why I say it's weird. In fact the Dozsa Rebellion partly happened, because serfs joining the crusade were angry with the nobility not "doing their part" and providing military leadership and/or preventing serfs from joining the crusade (and thus couldn't have their sins absolved).
More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gy%C3%B6rgy_D%C3%B3zsa
All in all, I'm just trying to point out that stuff that might be an emergency measure in one area could be the modus operandi in another... for a while. After the Rebellion serfs were pretty oppressed and any/all bearing of arms was severely punished.
>>48239522
>I'm glad people are angry on the internet
The fact that you're trying to hold a high ground with this childish shit is a bit odd.
>>48240108
...and the "core" book itself:
>>48237972
Are abortion
We don't talk about them here
>>48240186
Not to mention its pretty damn anti-intellectual to insult people for actually knowing how something works.
>>48237614
Sure is summer in here...
>>48240229
Nobody gives a shit that your favorite autistic hobby isn't accurately represented in works of fiction that are meant to entertain broad audiences of non-professionals.
>>48240349
You seem to be getting a bit worked up over that anon.
>>48240369
You were the one going full tumblr over movies not showing period accurate blacksmithing
>>48240392
>full tumblr
His rage is of a definite 4chan style, you spineless plebeian.
>>48240392
Neither him or me is the person who called it stupid.
Also calling the study of history autistic, what a spiteful little child you are. You should be ashamed of yourself.
>>48239390
I'm just picturing this dude hanging out with Ned Kelly.
>>48240414
Silly anon, words don't mean the same things they used to.
>Tumblr (n) 1. thing I don't like. 2. Someone who expressed positive interest in something I don't like. 3. Someone who voices irritation.
>Autist (n) 1. Person who said something I don't like. 2. Someone who is vaguely knowledgeable about a topic. 3. Someone whose argument I can't refute.
>Cuck (n) 1. A person, esp. someone who expressed positive interest in something I don't like.
>>48238005
That's a guy who thinks that you can easily sidestep bayonets and instantly close to bisect Germans with a simple vertical slash of an entrenching tool, so he may not realize this.
>>48240392
>going full tumblr
Do we really need to devolve to meme spouting over this?
Also, you can't assume that you've been talking to the same person the whole time, because you haven't been.
