How would you run a Star Trek campaign? FASA, Last Unicorn and Decipher all released games under license, but all of them feel like generic sci-fi games.
I'm coming to believe that it's not a matter of system, but style. So, how to capture that lightning?
Any ideas?
>>48228233
Which series?
>>48228233
>FASA, Last Unicorn and Decipher all released games under license, but all of them feel like generic sci-fi games.
But anon, that's what Star Trek is
>>48228353
One of the ship ones (so not DS9). An 'adventuring group' doesn't quite fit. There's too much command structure for murderhoboes, not enough 'other stuff' to make up for it.
I suppose my struggle would happen in any naval military rpg.
>>48228233
>I'm coming to believe that it's not a matter of system, but style. So, how to capture that lightning?
Use Lasers and Feelings.
>b-b-but muh system-neutral post
Shut it. Use L&F. You'll understand in a few minutes.
>>48228648
That's the problem. For an RPG to work well* the PCs need to have a good deal of freedom. Putting them into a command structure only works if they are at the very top, or those above them are willing to let the PCs do as they please most of the time.
For that reason, having the PCs operating a Federation starship is only likely to work if they are cut off from Command. There are options that could work:
- PCs are on a deniable operation and thus operating without oversight. Section 31 might have little enough oversight for this to work. But that really clashes with the themes of Trek, so you might want to run a different setting instead.
- PCs have been cut off from the rest of the Federation by something and are on their own. Eg, thrown beyond the reach of the Federation like Voyager was. But that means that the GM can't use most existing species because cutting players off from the Federation cuts them off from anything around Federation space.
- Players are running an independent ship doing whatever they can to make money.
*At least for most people
>>48229433
As much as I appreciate a strong recommendation. Tell me, how a plot generator bolted to the barest of dice pools supports the good parts of Trek?
>>48229800
Because it forces the players to roleplay Star Trek characters instead of consulting their sheets and weighing what they see against the probability of success every time they consider doing something.
>>48228648
The ship ones still have a divide.
TOS was very cowboy. Kirk would do what he had to, to get the job done. There was little mulling over the prime directive or lamenting about how they were peaceful explorers.
He held himself up to the standards of the Federation and what it represented, but if he had to casually fuck about with time, or arm a pre-warp culture with guns, or threaten to genocide an entire species to solve a problem, you can bet your goddamn ass he would.
Compared to Picard, where his Federation was very ingrained, that sector of the galaxy was very much explored and he regularly complained that they had to uphold the prime directive while trying shit that they know will fail before actually solving the problem.
Janeway in turn was "Upholding Starfleet ideals in a place where there was no starfleet." she held onto the Prime Directive fairly hard, but was more willing to bend it to get things done then Picard, but not to the extent of Kirk. But whenever she clenched it to her chest it seemed to always be about something they could have used to solve their problem. Even when her future self came back in time, told her she was stupid and how to get home right then now, Janeway shouted MUH PRIME DIRECTIVE!
>>48229953
With a game defined by the captain, with bridge crew in their orbit, how do you adapt it for the table?
>>48228233
I don't really know many RPGs outside of the 40k ones, but you could probably adapt Rogue Trader to be Star Trek. Just change the classes, weapons, and such.
As for the talks about playing in a roleplaying game with bosses to answer to, just say the PCs are on a ship assigned to the frontier or in the Gamma Quadrant. Communications take weeks or months to reach Starfleet, so they're mostly insulated from the overall command structure and have to rely on their own initiative most of the time. You could also say the Klingons, Romulans, and other races are exploring/conquering the same area of space, so that way they're still involved.
>>48229907
Well, you'd run heavily into 'People go super one way or the other so not as to be the second best in their chosen field'. After all, in L&F McCoy would be terrible at being a doctor as that's the other side.
It's a cool system but far from perfect.
I rather like the Last Unicorn version. It gives you characters that are very much the Renaissance Men that Star Trek supports.
I'm playing in a game of it current that's so far pretty fun.
>>48230259
I'd personally run it Kirk style, possibly in the TOS era.
The bridge crew is generally the core of the Away Teams and gives everyone on the ship something to do in space as long as you're clever about it.
Have them repair consoles, put out fires, scan for weaknesses. Just make sure that they're okay with the chain of command and whoever gets Captain isn't a douche.
I once had a GM who ran us a game of Gurps Prime Directive, he was a big player of Starfleet Battles, but also combined all the more modern species into it for us. Was pretty fun, we got caught in a Hydran-Cardassian war that promptly ended when both the Dominion and Concordium showed up. The group broke up before we could do anything about that though.
>>48229953
Kirk and Picard both defied the prime directive to save alien species, because the directive is a guideline to avoid creating clusterfucks, not a justification for mass murder.
There's that one episode where an asteroid full of people who have since forgotten a lot of their technology (generation ship, I think) was hurdling towards an inhabited world. When presented with the options of letting the asteroid crash into the planet or blowing up the asteroid to save it, Kirk's response is to tell the people on the asteroid that they're on an asteroid, so he can save both.
Janeway, meanwhile, cited the prime directive as a reason to let entire civilizations die out without remorse or even stopping to think about it.
There's one episode where she and Paris get sent back in time to a world that the two of them know will be wiped out soon, and Janeway's only response to Paris wanting to actually warn the locals is to pull rank and order him not to do it, no discussion involved.
Hell, in Dear Doctor, Archer and Flox intentionally choose to let an entire species die out on the grounds of a hunch and bad science, with Archer even making a speech about a 'directive' before the prime directive was even written.
TL;DR: The prime directive went from
>Don't exploit pre-warp civilizations.
to
>Sit back and watch the extinction event!
at some point between TNG and Voyager.
Maybe go more next-gen style with a Captain who is less actively involved with away missions and player characters who are more on equal footing in terms of rank. You'd still potentially have the problem of a character being first officer, but make the captain the GM and you could side step some issues.
Maybe structure the gameplay around poker hands?
>>48230259
In TOS, a lot of episodes focus on the trio of Kirk, Bones and Spock.
In TNG, Picard always discusses issues with the other officers when he can. Action sequences usually focus on Riker, Data and/or Worf.
In Voyager, Janeway, Seven and the Doctor are the only ones to actually do anything by the latter half of the show.
Really, it varies by episode. Some focus on a single character, but it's rarely a case of the plot ignoring the existence of the rest.
The captain is just the party face, so they do most of the talking while the rest of the crew handles their own areas of expertise.
>>48228233
Rogue Trader. You have a legion of disposable redshirts, a core crew which actually matters, and an infinite expanse of stars to venture forth into.
>>48230402
>Not exploring the delta quadrant.
>Not ACTUALLY exploring the delta quadrant after Voyager cocked it up.
>Not filling the campaign with references to Voyager's general incompetence.
You could make multiple campaigns just dealing with putting out the fires Janeway started.
>>48231861
>Hell, in Dear Doctor, Archer and Flox intentionally choose to let an entire species die out on the grounds of a hunch and bad science, with Archer even making a speech about a 'directive' before the prime directive was even written.
That episode was so bad that it made me want to stop watching. There were so many problems with that it just made me mad. Evolution doesn't work that way, ethics doesn't work that way, and fuck that conclusion.
Even Picard stepped in when that planet thought he was god, and that didn't even threaten the lives of the people on the planet, just their brains.
>>48232019
If Enterprise did anything, it was demonstrating that Voyager could've been worse.
Voyager at least had some good episodes in there, even some where Neelix was useful and the crew didn't fuck up everything they touched.
But Enterprise? Enterprise was where intelligent thought went to die.
>>48230464
You missed the 'force them to role play star trek characters' part.
>>48232099
No, I got that. I then pointed out that L&F fails to work for one of the holy trinity of the original series. McCoy, who always argued with emotion and humanity but was also a very professional doctor.
There have been other posts that argue setting up better than I can so I'll leave that aside. As for mechanics- I used the Fantasy Flight Star Wars system for my last Star Trek game. It lends itself really well to more story and character driven encounters without abstracting everything, and combat is quick fun and can be cinematic or deadly as you choose. Lots of things are modable, ship rules work right out of the box for star trek (even sheilds!) And even the handful of psychic powers from star trek are easy to use as force powers.
>>48232196
Just reread L&F rules, I think I see where we're not seeing eye to eye: you interpret the Medical skill as 'lasers', where I would interpret it as 'feelings'. You can't play this game with cold hard rationality, anon - it also requires, ahem, feelings. Gotta play this one half-reasonably, and half-feelingly.
>>48232018
>You could make multiple campaigns just dealing with putting out the fires Janeway started.
That's actually an incredible idea.
>>48232987
I know. I want to run it, but I can't handle two campaigns at the same time.
>>48232979
It's a science. Science is on the lasers side of Lasers and Feelings.
I've read the L&F rules. I believe they are flawed and don't match the dynamic of a lot of Star Trek shows or even accurately work for TOS which it was clearly based on.
>>48231861
>Janeway, meanwhile, cited the prime directive as a reason to let entire civilizations die out without remorse or even stopping to think about it.
Janeway was a goddamn psychopath. You could make an entire campaign with her as the BBEG, even if you're playing as Federation officers.Especially if you're playing as Federation officers.
>>48233046
Janeway is my favorite villain.
>>48233004
No anon - in LF, medicine is NOT science - it is a soft skill like seduction, or communications. Remember: the point of the show was the dynamism between Spock (lasers), Bones (feelings), and Kirk (navigating in between the two extremes). Bones is feelings. Medicine is feelings.
Open your heart, anon. You are stuck being too rational, too lasers. Be more feelings. Only in that way can the game work as it should.
>>48233147
>medicine is NOT a science
Ah, so the game runs on bullshit.
>>48233147
>No anon - in LF, medicine is NOT science - it is a soft skill like seduction, or communications.
Then what happens with all those characters that were cold, professional doctors? Do they they get screwed out of being good at their job?
>>48233147
>No anon - in LF, medicine is NOT science - it is a soft skill like seduction, or communications.
But Spock was also very good at medicine. He was the ship's science officer and often had observations about such things if Bones wasn't there.
>>48233190
Yes, Lasers and Feelings runs off bullshit. Its a game that fits on a napkin.
>>48233221
like who?
>>48231861
>Janeway, meanwhile, cited the prime directive as a reason to let entire civilizations die out without remorse or even stopping to think about it.
To be fair Picard did this once. Or would have unless Work's stepbrother hadn't gone rogue.
>>48232018
Starfleet shuttles are so damn cozy.
>>48233268
>like who?
Presumably every Vulcan ever who went into medicine.
>>48231861
>TL;DR: The prime directive went from
>>Don't exploit pre-warp civilizations.
>to
>>Sit back and watch the extinction event!
>at some point between TNG and Voyager
TNG. Pen Pals. Picard chastises Data for talking to a pre-warp alien over the radio, refuses to save their planet citing Prime Directive.
Then she explicitly asks Data for help, which it's implied triggers some kind of a loophole in the Prime Directive where you can intervene in a "minimal exposure" way.
Anyway, I think the discrepancy is less to do with the Prime Directive becoming more strict and more to do with the fact that Archer and Janeway were terrible captains/the ENT and VOY showrunners were terrible writers.
>>48233147
If seduction is a soft skill, why is Bones better at it than Kirk? Bones did almost none of it but the game says that he's be much better at it.
I played a Half-Ferasan Caitian in a 'trek game. I was a security officer. He was a bit of a vulca-boo because his WARRIOR BLOOD made him emotionally unstable.
Our Engineer was a Ferengi woman who found the experience of wearing clothing public novel. (her player's excuse was that she came from a backwards colony so the reforms took a bit to reach her settlement.)
Our Doctor was a Cardassian who'd apprentices under a torturer back in the day but for obvious reasons didn't like thinking of that whole mess.
Our diplomatic officer was a Betazoid who could manage to, shock of shocks, use her telapathic abilities and be of use. No real practical skills beyond manipulating people or counseling them but she had her uses.
Our GM solved the whole "Command Chain kind of fucks up freedom" by throwing us into the Delta Quandrant during that whole Dominion War thing. So we're literally on the otherside of the galaxy pulling a voyager, unlike voyager we actually run out of torpedoes and need to refuel on a semiregular basis. Our ship was a science ship that was retrofitted into an escort vessel and became increasingly hodgepodge as we moved on through the galaxy.
>>48233314
>To be fair Picard did this once.
Yeah, but Janeway does it repeatedly, as a matter of course.
Picard at least thought about it for a minute.
>>48233385
>ENT and VOY showrunners were terrible writers.That was actually my point.Pen Pals was poorly written, too. TNG was just USUALLY better about it. But some writers were worse than others.
>>48233190
>These two words refer to specific concepts in the context of this rules system
>I'm going to ignore that context and interpret these words using the common dictionary definition
>Why don't these rules make sens anymore?
>>48233415
>Our Doctor was a Cardassian
That's got to be terrifying for the crew.
>apprentices under a torturer back in the day
Actually makes perfect sense, since knowledge of the body would be helpful to both professions.
>Betazoid who could manage to, shock of shocks, use her telapathic abilities and be of use.
Holy shit, really?!
>>48233441
The thing is Medicine is ONLY a soft thing in Lasers and Feelings because 'Bones was emotional and he was the doctor'.
Lasers and Feelings doesn't try to emulate star trek. It tries to pidgeonhole people into the exact same roles as TOS and even then not very well.
>>48233268
>like who?
Gul Madred. He was a psychologist and interrogator.
>>48233409
>Bones did almost none of it but the game says that he's be much better at it.
His player wasn't interested in ERP.
>>48233532
>>48233465
Oh it was a complete shit show for the crew. By GM fiat it was decided none of us would be captain, the captain wouldn't go on away trips and cited a lack of skilled and capable personel as a reason to forbid certain people from leaving the ship.
The Cardassian and Betazoid weren't even supposed to be on the ship longterm they were just in transit. But we get flung off to the ass end of the Delta Quandrent after Jem-Hadar kill like a 4th of the crew and now it's time to make exploding lemons.
So the Jem-hadar kill the chief security officer leaving my Half-Ferasan as one of the highest ranking security officers. (Read Half Kzinti aka War Cats, basically feline klingons, who in game were vassals of the klingon empire.) He tries vulcan meditation because he's pissed to hell about losing an officer he looked up to. That doesn't work and the holodeck is busted so wails on a training dummy till he breaks several fingers.
that of course did not lead to much confidence in him from the crew. Gave the Cardassian a good excuse to interact with him and earn his trust though. They bonded by discussing the best ways to take out an enemy without killing him or causing more pain and damage than necessary.
and yeah the Betazoid was allowed to use her telepathy to do shit. Reading minds could be dangerous for her but unlike say, Troi she wouldn't encounter powerful unreadable alien intelligences on a regular fucking basis. More often than not she'd be reading the mind of an alien at the negotiation table and tell the captain he's lying via telepathy.
>>48233599
I didn't say he was a nice guy.
>>48233581
Well that's a damn ironic choice of name then.
>>48233610
Yes, but...
How many lights do you see, Anon?
>>48233599
>>48233610
Him as a doctor is a stretch, and he's definitely a feelings guy, just bad feelings.
>>48233611
'Bones'
From 'Sawbones' an old military term for Surgeon. Remember, Kirk and company were navymen.
>>48233643
he had at least first aid knowledge. Had picard implanted with an agonizer and extensive knowledge of the inner workings of the mind.
>>48233255
>>48233221
>>48233338
You don't get it at all. Give up.
>>48233602
Sounds like a hell of a fun time. Makes me jealous.
>tell the captain he's lying via telepathy.
She didn't just state the bloody obvious? You really did hit the jackpot on Betazoids.
>>48233409
Bones actually got quite a bit of pussy in TOS.
>>48230259
>Artemis: space ship bridge simulator
With some other background RP dice stuff if you must
>>48233441
You, sir, are great. Keep enjoyin l&f, you glorious bastard.
>>48233710
Or perhaps your game is not as flawless as you try to sell it as.
>>48233674
Too bad JJ didn't get that memo.
>>48233710
Heck, how would you deal with a Vulcan Diplomat in Lasers and Feelings? They turned up more than once but 'Vulcan' and 'Social' are not going to align in that system.
>>48233765
Who said it was flawless, anon? You really suck at this. If you don't want the only rpg that accurately captures the feel of trek, by all means go ahead and get yerself a brick. Sounds like it would be right up your back alley.
>>48233728
>honestly the major problems with betazoids was the writers didn't know what to do with them. Okay you have someone who can read minds, great now lets get some intrigue going. What do you mean we're not making an arcing episode? C'mon we can do two parters.
>what do you mean she can't just telepathically talk to the captain? We could literally just have them voice over and glance at eachother at the table. Set up a brain network shit would be cash!
It's kind of embarassing when X-men makes better use of telepaths in story than you do. And it's not like Star Trek is short of flimsy explanations for the crew winning. How much more contrived is 'my telepath read your mind and told me you'd cheat me' than 'we ejected our warp core to stop the singularity?'
>>48233803
Why not? Are you not imaginative? That's too bad.
How would I deal with it? EASY! Make vulcan diplomacy a science. Fucking duh!!
Git gud.
>>48233829
>'we ejected our warp core to stop the singularity?'
U wot? They did it (and then detonated the core) to use the push from the blastwave to knock them out of the event horizon they were stuck in.
>>48233829
Not to mention the inexplicably long range they have. Troi is frequently shown emphatically reading the captains of other ships despite their ships being hundreds-thousands of meters or kilometers apart.
>>48233826
>If you don't want the only rpg that accurately captures the feel of trek
Except as people have said, it doesn't. It's pidgeonholing into the dynamic of three specific characters in Star Trek and devaluing them as it does so.
Many of Spocks greatest actions were done out of emotion as much as logic and Bones was an intelligent professional, not just a bag of emotions.
It especially fails to capture any series outside TOS. To go to a very annoying example, Wesley Crusher was a little bastard who was both a genius and emotionally immature.
>>48233826
>>48233862
So in other words, Lasers and Feelings are interchangeable? Redundancy is such great design.
>>48233871
She's faking so that Picard won't fire her for being completely useless.
>>48233862
So basically: Anyone can use Feelings OR Lasers for literally anything?
>>48233870
I know it's trek, technobabble and fuzzy science is to be expected. Last I checked Romulan ships were powered by tiny black holes. (I'm not even going to bother thinking about how that works in detail.) but I'm somewhat amused at how much fucking trouble TNG's writers had at making Troi and (god help us) her mother useful. I mean demonstratably useful not "I CAN'T READ THIS INCREDIBLE INTELLIGENCE'S MIND"
>>48233765
Not that anon, but I interpret it to mean more *how* you do it. Take piloting for example. If you describe the action as if you're doing hot-headed, seat of your pants, "use the force luke" bullshit then it's Feelings.
Conversely if you're piloting by expertly plotting courses and waiting for the *exact* right moment to pull that book-perfect maneuver on your enemy, then it's lasers.
>>48233889
>completely useless.
That's not true.She put all her skills into starship ramming. If Star Fleet used kamikaze shuttle pilots, she'd be an asset!
>>48233889
no Picard knows she's faking but he tolerates her because she sleeps with Riker on a regular basis and that keeps the horny fuck just sexxed enough to be useful.
>>48233927
Though to be completely honest, L&F is more Galaxy Quest than anything
>>48233927
At which point you end up with the only two stats in the game doing the same thing.
>>48233871
yeah that shit was odd.
I'm just glad we didn't have a Deltan on ship.
>>48233973
It's a napkin comedy game man. And about it being the best Trek RPG I refer you to my previous statement >>48233970
>>48234036
>they call their home planet Delta IV
>>48233886
You don't want trek, anon - you want your speshul snowflake majicul ream IN SPESSSSS. kys.
>>48233697
that's true, but in all ways he's firmly in the feels category
>>48233888>>48233909
You REALLY don't get it, do ya, kiddies?
>>48233970
>L&F is more Galaxy Quest than anything
>Galaxy Quest
>but NOT Star Trek, no no no
>>48234122
All those examples were trek characters.
>>48234193
If you can't tell the difference between the two I'm not sure you'll ever get it.
>>48233973
Oh, for fuck's sake - how can you be this pants-on-head retarded, anon? Like, seriously, are you trying to be this stupid?
>>48233803
>>48233888
How would a vulcan diplomat be any different mechanically? Vulcans have strong emotions and their entire philosophy is "maintain a poker face and accuse other people of being overly emotional." Its like 4chan.
Their society is very primitive, full of barbaric customs and backwards social attitudes, and their way of life is due to being unable to stop killing each other otherwise.
>>48233870
>JJTrek
What they did was stupid, and wouldn't have worked. Technobabble is par for the course, but that damned movie has so much stupid its hard to ignore it and take the good parts for what they are.
inb4 Nemesis a shit!
Of course it was shit. Braga was involved.
>>48234149
That you're a shill for a game is functionally freeform with a single stat? Yeah, I got that.
>>48234201
Yes, but you have revealed a fundamental flaw in your understanding of TOS trek. If you fail to see the clear laser/feeling dynamic, you fail to see the point of the show, and instead are watching plain old sci fi. Stick with plain old sci fi if that's the case - Star Trek is about bigger things than you are capable of.
>>48234258
PON-FARR
O
N
I
F
A
R
>>48234281
>Of course it was shit.
I have yet to find a soul who says otherwise.
>>48234238
If (You) can't tell the similarities between the two, you are fucking retarded faggots, and it's affected your brain.
>>48234310
I've dealt with a lot JJTrek fans in my time whose first response is that Nemesis was one of the worst Star Trek movies of all time, as though it somehow excuses JJTrek from all its sins.
>>48234281
pretty much everyone I know considers Nemesis non-canon.
JJ-Trek is already non-canon by way of being an AU but I've yet to meet anyone who's fond of any season who has high praise for it.
having a 9/11 truther write the plot to your second film doesn't help anything.
>>48234258
They always forget this...
>>48234283
>zing!
>>48234281
>and wouldn't have worked.
Gravity assisting past warp 10 in a klingon ship probably wouldn't have worked either, but we still got a movie out of it.
Unless the reason later shows came up with shit like the temporal prime directive is because it is seriously that legit simple to time travel so they need time police to keep everyone from just fucking everyone else up in the past.
>>48234568
Enterprise was awful for a lot of reasons but the Time War shit is some nice lore to take away from things. Having literal time police keeping the timeline safe is neat.
>>48228233
I think the best Trek system I've seen so far is Starships and Spacemen, an unofficial Trek RPG that was oddly only the second science fiction RPG ever published (right after Traveller), though it's been reprinted by Goblinoid Games.
It's weird, it's a class-based system, which I always felt was a terrible idea for science fiction, but in this case it works. Partly because TOS crews have defined roles, but partly because they did more than just translate D&D classes over and call it a day, like some RPGs, (Lookin' at you, Stars Without Number) and the classes are broad and can do a little bit of everything, within reason, but each is best at its particular domain. So you don't wind up with a Warrior class who's the only one good at combat, but who sucks at everything else. (Yeah, SWN, that means you)
The classes are based on your not-the-Federation department, and each has its particular abilities, rules and regulations. If you're science team and you pick up a phaser and just kill somebody, you better have some good reasons because there'll be an investigation. Shooting dudes is security's job, they're trained to do it.
All in all, it's pretty cool.
>>48234598
NEVER RUN AWAY FROM THE TIME POLICE
>>48234723
YOU WILL NOT SURVIVE!
>>48234768
In retrospect that Voyager episode with the literal time police was pretty fucking stupid.
Its less about what system you use and more about how you run the game. Seriously, just use 40k or GURPS.
>>48234811
>Using 40k or GURPS
>For Star Trek
Also,
>Arguing that system doesn't matter
>>48233046
>>48233061
You guys are intentionally ignoring all of the times aliens attack and she just tries to talk to them through the battle instead of shooting back.
I agree that she was a dysfunctional captain, but her flaw was Angela Merkel tier compassion more often than cruelty.
This is the captain thatallied with the Borg because they were fighting a genocidal alien race. Of course that in and of itself makes her a villain in my opinion.
>>48234841
Are you telling me FATAL is the wrong system for my Secret of NIMH campaign with the kids?
>>48234697
>(Lookin' at you, Stars Without Number)
Ah, so I'm not the only one that got to the character creation section of Stars Without Number and closed the PDF. I had high hopes, but that was shit.
>>48234847
A genocidal force that told them its coming for them.
>>48234841
GURPS works great for Trek
>>48234785
Voyager was 'this is a really bad idea and you shouldn't do it' the series. Not in terms of the story itself (though there was plenty of that) but in terms of execution.
Remember Kim? Actor wanted out of the series because his character didn't get any focus. So he asks for a pay raise to give his employers an excuse to fire him. He was rated one of the prettiest actors in america and Voyager's ratings were tanking. Tune in ladies, watch pretty asian man.
Janeway acted schizophrenic because she had no clear writing direction. Trek shows recycling old show scripts is nothing new but there were seasons where half the fucking episodes are recycled scripts, no one was squatting in the bull pen and giving the writers direction when you finally got original scripts so no one would say "that doesn't even remotely make sense. Christ rewrite it."
Fruitless Exercise, excuse me Enterprise wasn't any better.
how about that ending huh? Everything was a holodeck simulation by Riker, who's bored and wants to learn history.
>>48234865
Don't get me wrong, it has some good stuff in it. The faction rules are pretty boss, but I really don't need all that D&D in my Traveller, and the class-based stuff is like a case study in how not to do a class system.
>>48234886
It works okay for Trek, I wouldn't say great. But that's a matter of opinion. 40k is a terrible choice, though. I wouldn't play a 40k game in the 40k systems, they're just lousy.
>>48234889
Enterprise had some nice continuity (as opposed to the absolutely minimal continuity in TNG and VOY) and I particularly enjoyed the Xindi arc and the >imblyign that they visited the homeworld of the Founders.
>>48234889
>Everything was a holodeck simulation by Riker,
Fuck, why did you remind me? Shit is soap-opera tier. They had the balls to actually reuse an ass pull from Dallas as if no one would notice.
>>48234869
That is a misquote, in framing the policy, Janeway relies on a very precise translation by Kess, all we can really be sure of from that conversation is strong negativity, which was appropriate given the fact thatthe Borg started the war. Species 8472 did nothing wrong
>>48234902
I haven't played the 40k games, but I'm going to assume you're right because 40k is shit. The only bad thing about GURPS is character creation, and I just stole the templates from Prime Directive and recolored them.
>>48234847
>You guys are intentionally ignoring all of the times aliens attack and she just tries to talk to them through the battle instead of shooting back.
Name one.
>compassion more often than cruelty.
She literally chose genocide through inaction multiple times.
She was going to reprogram the Doctor, the ONLY medical personnel the ship had, that no one on the ship could repair if something went wrong, just for being a little disagreeable.
She kept Neelix around after he was directly responsible for the death of multiple crewmen and put the entire ship in danger multiple times.
>allied with the Borg
Defeating their only significant rival so that the Borg could focus all their efforts on assimilating the delta quadrant. One highlight of Voyager was an episode where an alien actually called Janeway out on doing that.
Oh, and let's not forget that the real reason she allied with the Borg was so she could fly through their territory.
>>48234889
>Janeway acted schizophrenic because she had no clear writing direction
But that was awesome, she was a psychotic schizophrenic and the only times people ever questioned her on it she put them down, manipulated the situation to discredit them, or actually used force.
>>48234902
I'm not saying that the entirety of SWN is bad, either. I'm just saying that character creation was the clinching point for why I refuse to use it.
>>48234865
>>48234902
honestly as little fondness as I have for class based systems they can work. Especially if you make a robust multiclassing system or tie them into the setting fluff. For TOS and certain later eras putting a protocol restriction on equipment use that gets your character sanctioned is interesting. (nevermind the dice modifiers or whatever) There's ways you can make the class based shit work.
Hell traveller got mentioned lets look at that. What's Traveller do? Here pick one of these professions, roll dice, hope shenanigans don't fuck you over. I once had a noble get stranded on an alien world after getting conned during a big game hunt. Made contact with the natives and turned into the liason for a mercenary company made up of those same aliens.
Class Systems can WORK in Scifi but it takes effort on the part of the developer.
>>48234951
Oops, very imprecise translation I mean
>>48235018
I wouldn't call Traveller a class system. You get a career or two, but how your character turns out is only loosely related to that career. You're defined by the skills you have, not what your job used to be. Whether you learned piloting from the Navy or the Merchants or the Scout service doesn't matter. You're a skilled pilot now.
>>48235018
>robust multiclassing system
From what I've played of SWN, it ain't got one of those.
>>48234974
I don't have the episode names memorized, one example is the Hirogen Black Hole episode, they are shooting her ship and her only response isto disrupt the Black wholes containment device
>>48234999
well upside down satan you aren't wrong. It made for an interesting dynamic that's for certain! Pity it wasn't intentional tho.
>>48234974
wasn't species Three Whatever explicitly genocidal because they came from an alternate universe with different physical laws and the borg broke into their universe and started fucking assimilating everything?
Isn't that the species Janeway and the Borg doubleteamed?
>>48235018
Class based systems can work when done well. Stars Without Number just has a very bad class system.
It also couldn't decide if it wanted players to randomly generate characters or build them. It's the D&D ability score spread, including rolling 3d6 for stats, but the modifiers range from -2 to +2, it has a limited point reallocation mechanic that amounts to fuck all. You roll for HP. But everything else? Player's choice.
Pick a method and stick to it, I say.
>>48234951
8472 also attacked them first.
Making the ideal decision given limited frame of reference does not make one a villain, though I certainly don't enjoy the times she's followed the Prime Directive enough to let aliumz die.
>Species 8472 did nothing wrong
Attacking people recklessly and getting unbelievably BTFO over it is pretty wrong.
>>48235044
keep in mind it started out AS a class system and mutated into something else. You have four to three rough character types across the professions and in Traveller you have the unusual issue of picking up too many skills and getting maimed during chargen or getting too old to adventure.
nothing quite like sitting down to Gm the system and saying 'look I don't want to GM for octogenarian characters so anagathics are banned."
>>48235086
hey they did plenty wrong, up to and including planning, and eventuallu succeeding in infiltrating starfleet.
Not even that guy. I'm just trying to remember the series of events and why JAneway bothered allying with them in the first place.
>>48235118
No one said you had to play the first character the dice gave you. If the character is completely worthless, mulligan.
>>48234841
Rogue Trader would work great for a ST RPG. Just rework the classes so the RT is Captain/First Officer, Explorator is Engineering Chief, Arch-militant is Security Chief, etc. You'd also have to re-work the ships and lore skills, but as a whole, the system would work for ST just fine.
>>48235208
No, there is nothing worth scavenging from RT except maybe the life path system, which would have to be completely redone for ST anyway.
The class and level system is incredibly confining and the ship mechanics are horribly unbalanced. The scale is all wrong.
>>48234999
Keeping this fan theory while watching Voyager actually makes the show fairly entertainingin a sadistic kind of way.
>>48235159
It's traveller, mulligans are a given. But I've yet to see another system that, as a matter of course, expects players to be around 50-80 years in age when leaving chargen. That's not necessarily a bad thing and god knows it varies based on your era, campaign flavour, and GM preferences but the fact remains that you can be playing a game with a 90 year old ship captain who has undergone cosmetic surgery to remove the hideous tumors his antiaging drugs are giving him and he takes antipsychotics to, again, counteract the deleterious side effects of his immortality drugs.
>>48235243
If you use psionics some PCs will want to be very young as well. Sounds like a very interesting duality between the two styles of PCs.
>>48235243
Anagathic exploits are a munchkin stunt, and should be kept on a very short leash. Your ideal Traveller character is gonna be 30-50, with the young outliers being redshirts, and the old outliers being necessary baggage.
Starting young in the hopes of finding a Psionics Institute during play is a bad idea: the GM could simply decide psionics doesn't exist. (The Suppressions were just a witch hysteria of some kind, the Zhodani "psionics" is either tech driven or just propaganda, etc.)
>>48234841
I'd argue that the part of the system that does matter is ill defined for Trek, and hasn't been hit in any attempt I've seen.
The 'system' that works in D&D is the way classes, levels, resources and setting interact to make it D&D. You can play with chainmail's 2d6/whatever or 5e's advantage/disadvantage. It's still D&D (and not something else).
>>48235118
>keep in mind it started out AS a class system and mutated into something else.
No, it wasn't a class system even in the first printing. Marc Millar referenced OD&D while designing it, as in he had the book and would look in it to see how they solved a given problem, but he also referenced the wargame Triplanetary, and first edition Traveller doesn't really resemble either of them except in small ways.
>>48236043
>hasn't been hit in any attempt I've seen.
Have you seen Far Trek, or this thing? >>48234697
>>48235044
It's...a skill driven game with more or less mandatory character archetypes. Career matters because it colors your entire "build".
A Navy pilot is a commissioned officer with a bunch of technical and social skills, on his way towards the nobility, if he's not already there. A Scout pilot will tend to survival and science skills, and is at least stereotypically a loner who doesn't work well with formal authority. A Merchant pilot, likely the oldest of the three, has been everywhere and seen everything civilized space has to offer, and want to see the money before he listens to your bullshit.
It's not "Wizards can't wear armor, Rogues cant cast spells" levels of class system, but the class based roles and divisions of labor are still there.
To put this back on topic: you could sorta do a Star Trek style planet-of-the week campaign in Traveller: take a Diplomat or Noble as the "captain" and give him a staff of people from the other services--a Naval officer as aide, a couple of Marine bodyguards, a civilian Scientist or Bureaucrat, etc.--and put them in a small to medium sized ship with the mission "find potential trouble, and stop it before it starts".
>>48236188
>Career matters because it colors your entire "build".
Nah, it just gives you some variations on which skills you're likely to get. It has no mechanics attached to it after chargen, and no impact on who your character is once you're done. It's a background at best. Calling it a class is really stretching the term class to a point where it's almost meaningless IMO.
>>48228233
>So, how to capture that lightning?
Star Trek is the greatest science fiction mystery series of all time. You run Star Trek like you run Call of Cthulhu or Gumshoe or Sherlock Holmes. There's a mystery afoot and your plucky crew needs to solve it. You consider a logical, thoughtful solution; a passionate, emotional one; and then finally you present the players with an avenue to satisfy both.
War isn't the focus of Star Trek. Play Star Wars if you want massive space battles between wrist-cutting faggots and weeaboos. Star Trek is about applying a little thought to delicate situations. Even Klingons, whose entire species was retconned in TNG to be clinically retarded, had diplomats, scientists, and officers who at least appreciated approaches that weren't "Fuck everything up in that general direction."
Slow down, plan out your mystery, provide hooks, surprise reversals, and reveals of complicated plots the players may not have any understanding of.
>>48228648
murderhobos would work as a crew of neer do wells and fuck ups posted to the ass end of the galaxy on an old ship. what my groups doing
>>48236298
..and keep the GM self-inserts to a minimum.
>>48236298
normally I hate MMOs but STO is worth special mention if only for the way it solves a lot of the idiocy present in Trek. They take the Klingon empire for instance and start putting their vassals to use. Many of them still sneer at Medicine being for the weak but they'll do it at the drinking table. They'll sneer at scientists for being thinkers instead of fighters, but again at the drinking table. Same with engineers, all those people have vital roles in the empire and you let them do their fucking jobs.
You'll have Ferasan Captains, Gorn Captains, Klingon Engineers and Doctors. The EMPIRE comes first and your personal honor second. By all be honorable and seek glory but do it in service to the empire.
>>48236346
Every other TOS episode dealt with a god-like being or beings. It's more or less a staple of the franchise.
>>48236141
I have. Working through Far Trek now. Something feels off about S&S to me, but I can't say I've got an actual opinion.
>>48236351
Right?
Kor was amazing. He represented perfectly what the Klingons were meant to be - an evil twin to the Federation. Where the Federation explored for discovery, the Klingons explored for conquest. Where the Federation responded to threats with diplomacy, the Klingons responded to threats with subjugation or destruction. They weren't mindlessly aggressive (FIRE PHOTON TORPEDOES AT THAT GIGANTIC OTHERWORDLY SPACE CLOUD FOR HONOR AND SHIT!) and they never allowed their warrior culture to get in the way of the Empire's goals (DESTROY OUR ENTIRE MISSION OBJECTIVE BECAUSE HONOR AND SHIT!). They were an intelligent spacefaring race who happened to be A-OK with slavery. That's the whole twist.
Even the fucking Romulans made off better in TNG than Klingons.
>>48228385
It's funny to hear that. When it was created, Star Trek was definitely not generic. In the 50 years since, it has evolved to become generic by being the standard that everything else is compared to. It's become the midle road.
>>48236230
No, that's perfectly similar to a class system. Progressing in a class in OD&D, 1e, 2e, 3e, or 5e does not necessarily mean you will progress in it in the future.
>>48236459
Please don't mention roads.
>>48236230
>it just gives you some variations on which skills you're likely to get.
>some variation
"OK, you need to get this crashed starship up and running. Which of you have Engineering?"
"Dude, you said this was gonna be a mercenary campaign. We all rolled Army & Marines. The L-T got a couple points of Pilot from Navy flight school, but that's it."
>>48236447
pretty much yeah, STO fixes all of that. The better parts of TNG are present but anyone who puts HONOR in the way of a gain for the empire is viewed as a fool by their system. Klingons aren't even viewed as the cream of the empire, vassals can become captains if they're ruthless enough. Scientists and Engineers can become captains if they act with honor and ruthlessness. It's not about being a pure warrior, it's about furthering the empire's goals and making the galaxy a better place for the Klingon Empire's way of life.
yeah they take slaves, big whoop. Those slaves can earn positions of power and influence if they pay attention and make the best of their situation.
Honestly it makes the TNG situation interesting, you can view that as a cultural slump rectified by later reforms that revitalize the empire's power structure and political capabilities.
>>48236561
Yeah, sure. The Engineer "class" is someone from the Navy. Or the Merchants. Or the Scouts. Or the Pirates. Or the Belters. Or the Nobles.
>>48236447
DS9 also seemed to fix a lot of these problems (at least based on what I've seen of them so far). Even the "friendly" Klingons do things that most other cultures in the setting would consider overly hostile and barbaric, while still being cunning and intelligent.
>>48236459
True dat. Calling Star Trek generic is like calling Star Wars or LotR generic.
>>48237147
>Or the Pirates. Or the Belters. Or the Nobles.
MegaTrav?
>>48233147
>medicine is NOT a science
This is actually pretty accurate. One def of "science" is "anything we understand so well we can teach a computer to do it for us." By that def, medicine is DEFINITELY an art. Art in diagnosis, psych treatment, surgery, bedside manner, etc. The science is mostly in biochemistry. Perhaps in the 23rd century we know more, but in this day it's an art.
>>48237303
>Calling Star Trek generic is like calling Star Wars or LotR generic.
But Star Wars is generic. Virtually everything in the film is stolen from something.
>>48237641
Or the Citizens of the Imperium supplement from Classic.
>>48237818
That's true, although the same could be said of almost all fiction. LotR is just recycled European mythology, for example. Regardless, when we see a generic fantasy or sci-fi nowadays, we usually compare them to ST, SW, or LotR, because, more often than not, it's one of those works the creator used for inspiration/ripped off.
Best starship all centuries reporting in.
>>48234258
Sometimes I wonder who really handled the cripplingly strong emotions problem better, Vulcans or Romulans. And by the end of TNG, Romulans are even starting to become like Vulcans, albeit still physically inferior. Maybe some efficient middle ground will be reached eventually.
>>48238074
>Best starship all centuries reporting in.
Excuse me sir.
>>48233061
Yeah there's a reason she got made an Admiral the moment she got back over Picard, and that was Starfleet doesn't fire it's lunatics it just promotes them up and out of the captains chair.
That's what they were TRYING to do with Kirk, because most of Starfleet thought he was a reckless asshole who liked to make shit up. Nobody really ever bought any of his stories of solar system sized ameoba's, or that time he had to fight Ghengis Khan with Abraham Lincoln. Or all those times he travelled through time.
Then V'Ger and the Whale Probe nearly wreck earth in the space of a year and Starfleet has to admit that maybe Kirk had been telling the truth the whole time and "demote" him back into a Captains chair on the Enterprise.
Seriously, almost EVERY admiral you meet in Star Trek is a gibbering idiot at best, there's a reason for that.
>>48238813
>V'Ger and the Whale Probe
Stop fucking reminding me.
>>48238967
V'Ger was just a remake of a TOS episode, the Whale Probe is fucking screwy though I'll grant. No more so than having to deal with the actual greek god Apollo or that one time Spock's brain got removed though.
Hell, I strongly suspect that they never really fully beleived that you could timetravel by slingshotting around the sun until he came back with a fucking whale that second time.
Basically Starfleet ALWAYS thought that Kirk was whilst admittedly capable of commanding amazing loyalty from his crew, completely full of shit, and he generally kept out of being court martialled (most of the time) on the back of the fact that he could actually deliver the goods when asked.
Like the time he stole a Romulan Cloaking device.
This is one of those times Savage Worlds and all its pulpy action works extremely well
>>48239310
Does Savage Worlds have a star ship supplement?
>>48239444
>>48239155
a lot of this shit falls in Gene Roddenberry's lap. In the early TOS stuff he hadn't reached the full height of his crazy but towards the end he got really up his ass about it. To the point of turning his nose up at the money he'd get from a planned warship boardgame because it clashed with his vision of a utopian future.
When kennedy was shot he wanted to make a movie about the TOS crew going back in time and killing/saving JFK which was just a rehash of an old episode where they go back in time and accidentally prevent the death of an antiwar protester who managed to keep america out of WW2 leading to the nazis winning.
I say kill/save because he had two seperate scripts for both concepts. Thankfully no one would let him get much traction with the idea.
I like Trek and I'm glad Gene made the TOS but him dying was one of the best things that ever happened to the franchise.
>>48240218
And yet he cheated the theme tune's writer out of a portion of the royalties by writing lyrics to the tune, letting Gene claim a portion of said royalties, then never even using the lyrics.
Gene was kind of a hypocritical dick.
>>48240260
yeah that too, he liked to steal the spotlight, like to the point of beimg a dick about it. During TNG his lawyer got in on the act, started sneaking around the studio and actually rewrote the script on some of the screenwriter's computers.
>>48238074
>Romulan ruthlessness backed by Vulcan science
That's not efficient, that's fuggin scary.
>>48237907
Yep, that's the one.
My point was that your role in the game has everything to do with which skills you picked up, and very little to do with what job you got them from.
Even if you join the army or marines, you can come out with no particular skill at fighting, and wind up being your party's computers officer and doctor. If you do want to be a fighty or shooty guy, army or marines are a good bet, but what you end up doing after chargen is still up to your choices and your dice rolls.
The career (or careers) you choose doesn't always guarantee a specific party role or anything, which is very different from a class system where you pick a class, and then get a specific set of abilities that are attached to that class.
>>48229437
I think it would work fine the way it's presented in the series.
Ever notice how just about every single Starfleet admiral is evil, insane, or both? Every time they conflict with the main characters, the main characters end up winning despite being of lower rank.
Starfleet rules and laws are generally portrayed as little more than rough suggestions. Saying that you couldn't have your players play a Starfleet crew because Starfleet Command exists is like saying that you couldn't include pre-warp cultures in your campaign because the Prime Directive exists. Some rules are just there to be broken.
>>48242651
You could probably portray that as a flaw in the way the whole hierarchy is structured. It's probably a result of the Peter Principle: the only people who become admirals are the people who were really good at being captains, which is a job so different from being an admiral that it's practically unrelated. The people who are best suited for being admirals are probably not also among the best suited for being captains, so they never reach the top of the hierarchy. And the people who do get promoted to admiral are at the top and in control of the whole system, so they never get demoted.
Consider Star Trek II through IV. Kirk is promoted to admiral. Probably the best leader in Starfleet is finally called to take the logical next step and lead Starfleet itself. Except he hates it, he resists it at every turn, and to his credit he would probably suck at it. Instead he contrives a way to get himself demoted to captain again so he can keep doing the stuff he's good at.
Consider this method for generating Starfleet command in a campaign: have your players describe other Starfleet captains on other ships, people it would be really fun or useful to have as peers. Then add an extra pip to each of them, stick them behind desks, and behold how ill-suited they are to their new jobs. Confident, risk-taking captains with a healthy talent for bending the rules just naturally become corrupt, megalomaniacal admirals.
>>48242927
Remember that alternate timeline version of Picard, the one who never got promoted because he was less risk-averse and never got noticed? I bet he would have made a pretty good admiral. He wouldn't do the crazy shit other admirals do, like assassinate foreign dignitaries to start wars, order blatantly unethical experiments, and take over Earth in a military coup. That's the kind of psychotic risk-taking that works for captains but not for admirals. However, he'd never become an admiral because he lacks the qualities needed for a captain, even though they're the opposite of the qualities needed for an admiral. That's what happens when you promote people one step at a time based on their performance in their current position instead of the position you mean to promote them into.
>>48234149
They're trying to look at it at some modern rules-heavy system like D&D or GURPS where your ability to do anything is clearly defined by the rules. L&F (and other rules-lite abstract systems like Risus) is really about characterization. Your lasers vs feelings rating is really more of a guideline for characterization or personality, what the game is really about is describing your actions in a way that plays to your strengths. So things like medicine, piloting, whatever could be justified as either lasers OR feelings, depending on how you describe it.
>>48233870
If you're caught in a black hole, no explosion no matter how powerful will get you out. That's just laws of physics. Presumably detonating the core created some kind of subspace disruption which momentarily blocked the gravity waves from reaching the Enterprise, allowing it to break free and get past the event horizon. Saying it actually pushed the Enterprise out is clearly nonsensical, as the Enterprise was already starting to break apart from the strain of just holding its position against gravity; anything which produced enough force to actually push it forward at any meaningful speed would have utterly demolished it.
>>48243521
If you're behind the event horizon of a black hole, your escape velocity to get out of it is greater than the speed of light. So in the real world, yes, you're fucked. But in a science fiction universe where faster-than-light travel is possible, you might be all right.
>>48243446
The Peter Principle: everyone rises to their own level of incompetence. It's been a known issue since the 70s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
I don't think there's much of a solution for it, unless you put in a separate "Captain Track" and "Admiral Track", and I don't imagine the captains sitting still for that.
>>48243731
[I should read upthread before I reply]
>>48243586
>greater than the speed of light.
Which really shouldn't be that much of an issue when you have warp drive, a means of traveling faster than the speed of light.
>>48243811
He just said that, in the second half of his post.
>But in a science fiction universe where faster-than-light travel is possible, you might be all right.
>>48243855
The point I was trying to make was that the black hole shouldn't have been that big a deal for the ship in the first place.
Or maybe I'm just an idiot. Come to your own conclusions.
>>48240216
>muh circular hallways.
I suppose, if you squint, you could say it lessens the risk of a hull breach depressurizing too much of the ship. I suspect they just do it to save space on the sets, though.
>>48243889
To be fair, the high escape velocity is not the only issue to worry about. There's also the ever-increasing difference between the pull of gravity on different ends of the ship and the resulting spaghettification. You might be able to technobabble that problem away or you might not. Also, sometimes faster-than-light travel requires you to be far away from strong sources of gravity and sometimes it doesn't.
>>48234568
There's a pretty major difference between using an FTL drive to slingshot around a star as the poor man's time travel vs. "Let's throw our fuel out the back and hope the explosion throws us clear of a gravity well."
One of these is semi-plausible in-universe, the other relies on audience stupidity.
>>48244261
They weren't inside the event horizon yet, so what's wrong with using an explosion to get yourself moving as fast as possible to reach a sublight escape velocity? That's some classical-ass mechanics right there.
>>48244358
Except that an explosion would only affect them at relativistic speeds, and they have a starship that travels faster than light.
Explosion = As fast as light, best case scenario.
Warp Drive = By definition, even on its lowest setting, faster than light AND creates a subspace field that makes the ship's mass all but irrelevant.
>>48244490
Are we playing with the rules where you can't use warp travel in a strong gravity well? Or maybe the warp drive was damaged in the battle? I dunno, you just sort of have to science your way out of these contradictions as they come up. Abramstrek gave less of a shit than most of the TV series, but the TV series would run into this shit, too.
>>48233532
Interrogation is clearly a feelings skill.
>>48244534
>JJTrek gave less of a shit
No kidding. That's not even the worst common sense flaw in the movie. Sure, you can hand wave it and say that antimatter exploding negates gravity for a period of time, but that's essentially the kind of hand waving that was necessary in order to explain the setup for the entire movie's plot.
Less hand waving is better, but Hollywood isn't a place for writers. It's a place for hacks.
>>48233268
The Doctor was pretty amusingly clinical even after developing feelings in other areas.
This is skirting the edges of what still counts as /tg/, but has anyone played the Artemis bridge simulator? It seems like a pretty easy way to do a Star Trek LARP. Just have everyone put it on their phones and then position yourselves wherever.
>>48243586
Explosive propulsion still wouldn't do it, as the energy required would exceed infinity. The only way to do it would be to generate a subspace distortion (how warp drives function in the first place).
>>48243811
>>48243889
But the warp drive was clearly not sufficient, as they were said to be "at warp", yet clearly not moving relative to the singularity. Warp drives interact strangely with gravity, since both work by distorting space-time. So apparently it's the equivalent of running on a treadmill/conveyor belt - the warp drive was distorting space one way, but the singularity was distorting it the other way, thus no net change. The only way to escape was to generate a distortion of much greater magnitude, which is what the detonation of the cores accomplished.
>>48244261
>"Let's throw our fuel out the back and hope the explosion throws us clear of a gravity well."
Actually this is perfectly plausible, it's just inefficient. The only reason it's unrealistic in this instance is because the gravity of a black hole at that close range is ridiculously strong. It would work just fine for escaping a much weaker gravity well.
>>48244490
Warp drive is only guaranteed to be at least as fast as the speed of light in local space-time. They were close enough to the black hole that even light couldn't escape, so "faster than light" was still stationary relatie to the black hole.
>>48244787
It kind of relies on the old TOS/SFB idea that matter/antimatter annihilation somehow inherently distorts spacetime, as opposed to the modern interpretation that the M/ARA is just a power source and the actual distortion is generated by the warp coils in the nacelles.
>>48245472
I got a lot of (You)s out of your post. It's kind of surreal actually.
Ultimately, I don't like JJTrek, and while there might be ways to hand wave certain plot elements, you eventually start to notice that a LOT of the movie relies on this (moreso in general than Trek did before Voyager).
I don't accept the "read the comic book!" argument either. No one told me I'd need to study the extra materials and that there would be a test afterward.
>>48245800
Handwaving and technobabble are traditions older than Star Trek itself, and any Star Trek RPG has to be able to embrace them.
If I were ever running a Star Trek campaign, which I'd like to do one day, I'd want some way to reward players who come up with plausible-sounding reasons why things are as they are in the campaign. Have them make up some of the babble for me.
>>48242095
>Romulans fueling their ruthless conquest with intellect and logic rather than pants-on-head get-power-quick schemes
They'd take over known space in, what, a month?
>>48245945
There's something like that in one of the Star Trek RPGs, but I don't know which one it was. It was TNG or DS9 focused in its design layout though, using the LCARS crap.
But, to tide you over:
http://hyotynen.iki.fi/trekfailure/
>>48244778
>>48246109
Probably a couple years, but they'd trick you into giving it to them and make you think it's for the better.
>>48244955
>This is skirting the edges of what still counts as /tg/, but has anyone played the Artemis bridge simulator? It seems like a pretty easy way to do a Star Trek LARP.
That's an interesting idea, but using a video game to aid in computer-based LARP would only work if it allows the GM to write their own scenarios. Otherwise, you're just playing the game.
Well if any of you faggots actually want to run a Star Trek RPG I would play the shit out of that.
>>48228233
I ran a campaign a couple years ago set between the Original Series and the 1st Movie. We used the Last Unicorn game, which I thought was pretty elegant.
However, I noticed the difficulties didn't scale well with the "only 1 die explodes" mechanism. I home rule change to the system so that all dice explode makes the game's system probabilities work out a lot better.
While we used LU's system, we used the background and setting information mostly from the FASA books.
Those were the voyages of the Frigate USS John Stark.
who wants a story time?
>>48252240
When has anyone ever NOT wanted story time?
>>48252401
>>48252348
alright I mentioned some of it here >>48233415
but we might as well back up and examine the full situation.
So dominion war, mid to lateish DS9 era, science ship converted into escort vessel. These are the voyages of the USS Temerity.
The Caitian is Leuitenant Z'kay Ahr, Cardassian Doctor Taimann Jasad, the Ferengi is Leiutenant Kellan Noxx, the Betazoid Diplomat Treaia Koi.
Our Story starts on a Border System that would be considered a minor oddity were it not for the structures that cover it's neutron star. The dominion had long maintained a base there and our mission was simple, kick them out and study the star and it's structures if we have the time and capability.
So the Temerity arrives with the Audacity and Conteplation. Contemplation is a cruiser, like the Temerity Audacity is a science vessel turned escort.
There's a Jem Hadar space station in orbit around a half terraformed world, they never bothered completing the process, just this big desert rock with a bunch of canyons miles deep full of little oasises and cities. The dominion was stretched thin here so we didn't face too much resistance from the Jem-Hadar at first.
>>48252588
>science ship converted into escort vessel
So, a Nova class? AFAIK they were pressed into escort roles in the Dominion War.
>>48252588
Of course that changed when the Jem-Hadar used some kind of control device on their space station to make use of the structures on the neutron star to cancel out various technological devices. I can't remember the technobabble, it's not important. What is important is that our phasers didn't work, neither did their polaron beams. So of course the 6 or so fighters they have ('fighters' these ships had 42 crew onboard) engage in boarding action.
Someone on the Contemplation manages to teleport over to the space station, the away team starts fucking with their controls. Eventually the neutron star starts spitting out energy rays and creating energy rifts. The Temerity gets hit by one and then we hit technobabble territory.
Throughout it all the Jem-Hadar are fighting like maniacs. Now keep in mind these ships are on war footing, this is no TNG 'there are children on board!' situation, even if it is a science vessel everyone on board signed on knowing they might meet the enemy in combat.
Not many of them however considered that they might wind up fighting Jem-Hadar in hand to hand combat. The Temerity's Security Chief got his neck broken by a Jem-Hadar warrior, others were cut to pieces by knives or had their heads bashed in by pieces of furniture turned to violent purpse.
Enter Z'kay and Kellan, the phasers might not be working but communicators were functional...if spotty. Together they managed to seal off the occupieed sections of the ship and the Caitian led the Temerity's security complement in wiping out the enemy forces.
Some tried to take prisoners but Jem-Hadar don't surrender.
>>48233046
Do you remember that episode where the EMH wrote a novel about being an EMH on a shitty Voyager ship with murderous Janeway just cappin' fuckers left and right? I feel like that episode sums up how my good-intentions Trek RPG would end up if I let my usual group play it.
>>48252730
So on top of the security complement having to deal with boarders you have Engineers dealing with a handful of Jem-Hadar who made it into the Jeffries tubes.
Now the late and lamented Security Chief Bronson managed to at least set up a chokepoint on the Breach that the Jem-Hadar had created so they were mostly locked down but the defenders were briefly overwhelmed after the death of the chief. Thankfully with the timely assistance of some Ensigns who were perhaps a little too eager to prove themselves the breach was taken and the security complement started pushing into the Jem-Hadar vessel.
Around this point the weird warp crap caused by the neitron's star's structures had started up so we could use our energy weapons again...if we were particularly ballsy or suicidal as we watched a Jem-Hadar soldier do just that only to have his Polaron rifle blow up in his face. (before we'd been placed under some kind of dampener field so the weapons just wouldn't start up.) We had grenades at least so we made use of those.
Right back to the Jeffries tubes. Kellan sent some volunteers in and played ops, scanners were spotty, as were communications. She managed to kill a couple of the infiltrators by locking them into some tubes and venting them, others were killed by brave engineers using repurposed tools. Nothing quite like having a Jem-Hadar kill via an Ion Cutter to your name.
>>48252658
Don't remember the precise class but that sounds about right mon ami.
>>48252889
so yeah, the Vorta in charge of the ship doesn't give a fuck that we're in some kind of subspace wormhole craziness and tries to scuttle his ship. Doesn't surrender either, couldn't risk wrecking the bridge with grenades so we had to charge in there with whatever weapons we had on hand and take out the bridge crew and vorta in hand to hand combat.
We succeeded, but the Vorta succeeds in setting the ship to self destruct, because of course he does. Thankfully in between the surviving Security Personell and the Temerity's engineers we were able to come to a conclusion on how to stop the self destruct quickly and efficiently.
It pretty much boiled down to finding power conduits for the explosives that'd detonate the ship and using our grenades to blow them up. We'd have used the phasers, but again, unsafe.
We were about halfway done with this when the wormhole spat us out in uncharted space. now that we were capable of using our phasers we did so.
(yeah the cardassian and betazoid weren't present for this, they came in later when the GM got a couple people he knew to fill in holes in the party composition. The explanations for them showing up were a little weak perhaps but they showed up second session so whatever.)
So there were were, in the Delta Quandrant with half a Jem-Hadar warship anchored to a juryrigged Federation Escort, 1/4th our crew dead, waist deep in warriors who'd gone to meet their gods.
>>48252998
>hand to hand combat.
Tell me there were double-fisted blows and jumping sideways into people.
>>48252998
Enter the next session, two new players showed up and got filled in. Think of the first one as the GM getting a feel for skill roles and combat and stuff.
So a fourth of the crew is dead and we can't exactly look forward to going to the nearest station to drop off our dead and get some grief counseling and medical relief. Not to mention replacements for the dead crew, new ammunition and so on.
Our Captain, one Thass Ch'voqis is left with some really unpleasant decisions to make. First one is appointing a new security chief. The Obvious choice is Z'kay, but as mentioned the crew doesn't trust him because he's half Ferasan (warrior augments) and prone to emotional outbursts. During his downtime he destroys a practice dummy with his barehands and breaks several fingers. This sort of clinches it so he gets passed over for Security Chief, A Bajoran named Prujak Ziz takes over instead.
The Ship's Doctor a human by the name of Akira Yamada is unsurprisingly swamped, so one of the ship's passengers tries to help.
Said passenger is a Cardassian and rumor is he used to be a torturer so most of the crew aren't exactly interested in his tender ministrations. Still Z'kay, not being a complete ass resigns himself to the care of Doctor Taimann Jasad.
They hit it off pretty well as Doctor Jasad has a decent bedside manner and a rather morbid sense of humor. One that makes him less than ideal for most Federation citizens but along with that he's adaptable and actually has a strong sense of empathy. (thus his inability to cut it as a torturer.)
>>48253108
Kellan wasn't Chief Engineer, nor for that matter was she terribly interested in the position. She'd spent most of the fight doing crap that Chief Engineer Scarlet O'hara (who was utterly oblivious to the jokes her name earned as she was a colonist and had never once set foot earth outside of the duties required of her for starfleet as well as her education.) couldn't be bothered to deal with. Engineer O'hara was far too busy keeping the systems working during negative particle fluxes and crap to get involved with Jeffries tube shenanigans.
Anyways Kellan was assigned to oversee scavenge assessment of the Jem-Hadar craft as, rather bluntly, she was a Space Jew and had a knack for sniffing up valuable items. Literally, she had a nervous habit where she'd sniff the air.
So throughout this we find out that we have a small diplomatic group who apparently got lost in logistic shuffling, same with the doctor. Both were intended to go to a starbase we were scheduled to revisit for refueling and repairs after the battle. Apparently their shuttles had broken down and they had to be taken onboard due to an increased jem-hadar presence in the territory.
>>48253026
and tables hurled like enormous rubber rocks, 'kirk rolls' were made use of during later firefights.
>>48253238
So the USS Temerity is there for maybe a solar week, everybody is working their ass off as best they can, the Jem-Hadar craft is being cannibalized for every spare part we can think of using and then who shows up but USS Voyager's own Yautja standins the Hirogen.
The Hirogen teleport onboard steal crew, and run away in their cloaked ship because that's how Hirogen roll.
Engineer O'hara and Science Officer T'rell figure out how to track them and we follow them. We find a Class M Planet, swampy-tropical world. Lots of Megafauna. The ship is in orbit and so Captain Ch'voqis hails them and demands that they return our kidnapped crewmembers. The Hirogen Hunstmaster tells us that we should be honored to be taking part in the sacred hunt that will see his son become a man.
All attempts at reason fail, because of course they do. These are Hirogen. Also our DM ruled that Betazoids can't read minds of people on other spaceships. No he doesn't care TNG did it, it was stupid then and it'd be stupid now barring certain extenuating circumstances.
Keep in mind our characters know nothing about the Hirogen and me and the DM are the only ones who watched Voyager.
There's a lot of back and forth. Ch'voqis is trying to get the huntsmaster to see reason, it's not right to treat other sapient beings this way. They of course view the hunt as sacred. Being Andorian she eventually loses patience and has the ship fire on the enemy.
A pitched battle ensues, the Hirogen ship is eventually shot down but we use up a lot of torpedoes.
>>48253365
The ship took damage but nothing that couldn't be repaired. Citing the lack of skilled personell certain crewmembers, among them the captain, were forbidden from leaving the ship for away missions.
However volunteers were asked to go down to the crash site and recover prisoners. We knew the Hirogens had cloaking tech so the diplomat Treaia surprises everyone by pointing out that here telepathic abilities will give the away crew an adavantage in tracking the enemy soldiers and interrogating them. Nevermind finding our own crew members.
So yeah Leitenant Ahr volunteers, as do several ensigns and security crew. Most importantly Doctor Jasad and Engineer Knoxx also volunteer as does Diplomat Koi.
Together they all beam down to the crash site. Among other things that were less than standard for DS9 era crews Engineer O'hara had juryrigged some basic personal forcefields in the hopes of upping our survival capabilities. Machetes and similar jungleworld survival gear were issued.
The resulting away mission was pretty tense, the Hirogen crew were playing Predator and eventually Ahr lost his temper and had a heavy phaser rifle beamed down, he had Koi play spotter and just started incenerating large portions of the forest. He managed to keep from outright losing any crewmen but some of them came away pretty heavily injured.
The bad news is some of our personell were killed on the Hirogen hunting world. The good news is they died protecting innocent people that the Hirogen huntsmaster had captured for his hunt. We learned this after managing to capture the huntsmaster himself, his suit proved resiliant to the heavy phaser rifle's beams but the concussion from grenades knocked him out.
Doctor Jasad wasn't exactly thrilled about putting his training as a torturer to use in interrogation but he was empathetic, not squeemish.
>>48253518
So yeah, Jasad and Koi doubleteam the guy, she reads the huntmaster's minds and emotions. Can't quite rip thoughts out of his head but she can detect falsehoods and emotions and relay that infor to Jasad telepathically.
But I'm getting ahead of myself, we spent like a day in game playing "The Most Dangerous Game" with the hirogen survivors. Took prisoners where possible but Hirogen aren't exactly known for being willing to surrender. Eventually we come upon a fortified camp with the hunstmaster in residence, he demands honorable combat.
Lieutenant Ahr however believes that honorable combat requires you to identify your combatant as a person, if not an equal, and not prey. So instead the hunstmaster got a volley of phaser fire and grenades. His attendents were killed in the battle but he was stripped out of his suit and brought up back to the ship and given some clothes and a comfy little cell.
Eventually he was interrogated, lots of mindgames and threats from Jasad, horror stories about the federation dug up from Cardassian propaganda. He tried empathizing, threatening, insulting, and so on until he and Koi managed to glean the location of our kidnapped crew and the other victims of the hunt. (it was hard to sort out their life signs from all the other stuff on the world.)
We needed signal boosters to find them, and we needed to defeat the Hirogen hunting teams on hand at the sight. We had a couple shuttles on hand so our engineer slapped an extra weaponsystem on each one (polaron beams taken from the Jem-Hadar craft) and we decided to hunt the Hirogen.
>>48253629
so we beam down to the hunting grounds, this site is on the other side of the planet, apparently the huntsmaster chose his crash site in the hopes of leading us away from his son.
We had the Hirogen's cloaking tech and communicators on hand. It wasn't easy to crack their codes so we didn't bother, we just modified our scanners to search for them. We didn't go actively seeking a fight, just sought out the victims of the hunt with modified scanners occasionally we'd skirmish with the hunters on sight but it wasn't nearly as ardous a fight as it was with the other hunters. These were teenagers, children even in some cases. They lacked their elder's fortitude and resolve. We drove them off, got ahold of a good number of alien refugees and all of our surviving crew.
we beamed the elder hirogens down to the hunting site they apparently raised their children at and salvaged what we could from the crashed hirogen ship before incenerating it.
Then we moved on.
That's all I have time for tonight but later I might tell the tale of the travelling planets and a space merchant who was perhaps too persistent for his own good.
>>48253365
>>48253518
>>48253629
>>48253718
Cool stuff. I look forward to the next installment.
>>48253518
see this reminds me of that episode with the time traveller in TNG where he asks each of the bridge crew what they think the most important advancement is and Worf mentions Phasers.
the guy calls Worf Primitive,
But Phasers can be set to stun and still hit a pretty wide area so so Lieutenant Fuzzypaws there can just say "Fuck You and everything in your general vicinity" but leave the phaser on stun.
I imagine being hit by a phaser on stun too many times is pretty lethal but hey, better them than you.
>>48253984
stun at point blank range kills.
>>48255283
Have a lot of experience using phasers, do you?
>>48255641
Yeah, that would be a pretty easy fix. The phaser could detect how close the target is and dial itself back accordingly.
>>48249191
>running a game in-person except for one player Skyping it in
>that player is the EMH or ship's computer
>any technical difficulties with the connection also happen in-game
>>48257187
Pic summarizes how I feel about this idea.
>CBS published new rules for Star Trek fan films
>No film can be longer than 15 minutes, or 30 minutes total if it's a series.
>No actor may be paid, and no one involved in the project can have anything to do with any Star Trek property or franchise.
>All costumes must be officially licensed - no bootlegs or shop-made imitations.
>Yfw
>>48257407
>All costumes must be officially licensed
>You are also required to bend over and spread your cheeks.
>>48257425
That and the duration limit came across as vindictive. You can blame Alec Peters all you want but CBS just shat the bed with fans, especially with the tepid reactions to nuTrek.
The official literature reads:
>If the fan production uses commercially-available Star Trek uniforms, accessories, toys and props, these items must be official merchandise and not bootleg items or imitations of such commercially available products.
I mean come on. Banning fan-made props?
>>48257407
CBS jumping onboard the "fuck the fans" bandwagon. I don't get. When did big corporations stop liking free advertising?
>>48257588
Axanar scared them. Alec Peters may be a whiny cunt, and he may be functionally illiterate and possibly retarded (let's sell Star Trek mugs with our names on them! That's not infringement!), but Axanar was a damn good fan film, one of the best ever made.
CBS feared they'd lose fans to fan material, since the only people who would ever go see the new Star Trek films are the same people who think Captain Kirk doing motocross is Janeway-tier stupidity.
I was looking forward to the Axanar sequel way more than I was looking forward to the Beyond garbage.
>>48257581
I'd like to think CBS has a good reason for this, but I'm struggling to think what it could be. It'd sure help a lot if companies would explain their rationale when laying down new rules like this, rather than simply handing them down from atop Mount Ararat.
This smacks of a disconnect between corporate executives and the fans, a classic "let them eat cake" failure. I can easily picture some network bigshot in his corner office reasoning that surely the costs of using only officially licensed props and costumes wouldn't be prohibitive for a fan film.
>>48257606
>CBS feared they'd lose fans to fan material, since the only people who would ever go see the new Star Trek films are the same people who think Captain Kirk doing motocross is Janeway-tier stupidity.
I sure am loving this new Hollywood trend of ignoring what audiences want and telling them what they should like instead. How's that Ghostbusters reboot working out for you fatcats?
>>48257318
>You will never have the other players casually turn you off when you're not needed
>You will never have to wait with a tablet in your hand wondering what's going on in the campaign
>You will never cause hilarious misunderstandings because nobody ever tells you what happens in places with no holo-emitters
>You will never notice the ship start to rumble and have no idea why because nobody bothered to tell you, just wondering if you and everyone you know are going to be destroyed at any moment
>>48257673
>>48228233
Try Sufficiently Advanced for the optimistic transhumanism elements.
>>48257660
It's bluntly and obviously an attempt to curb fan material. Especially in light of the fact that, to this day, TOS remains the favorite of some people. Especially because of it's shoe string budget.
CBS hired JJ Abrams to make them a new, young, hip star trek that, unsurprisingly, bears little actual resemblance to the original. The characters are pop cultural doppelgangers and share little with their sources. When you get something new you're getting a 'bold' idea that no one wants. (see turning Sulu gay for brownie points, a move George Takei called 'Disrespectful of Gene Roddenberry's vision' which he is being lombasted for in media. God forbid a gay man play a straight character and think that character's sexuality is an important element of their identity)
CBS has a good reason for doing this. The problem is, it's a sleazy one. Short of DMCA's they have no way of enforcing this either so all they've done is drive fan productions underground or force them to use smoke screens so they won't get bothered by the clueless execs who are terrified of competition from nerds in basements with expensive digital cameras.
>>48260369
>TOS
That shoe string budget is why we have transporters, because building a model, the set, and shooting film of a shuttle traveling to and from the Enterprise was too expensive (and, the model/sets weren't finished by the time they needed it).
Sometimes limitations are an environment that encourages creative solutions. Many of TOSs episodes are great because they had to lean on the strength of the writing, in no small part because they couldn't do anything they wanted with special effects.
>JJSulu is gay
Made me roll my eyes, but I'm genuinely pained that the media has turned on Takei.
CBS and Paramount is full of people who just don't get Trek, and while sometimes its a good thing to bring non-fans in (Nicholas Meyer comes to mind), it's clear that JJ was as brainless as the execs.
The funny part to me is I would have liked JJTrek better if it wasn't constantly reminding me of better movies with all its callbacks, shoutouts, and supposed "fan service".
>Axanar
CBS would have nothing to worry about from fan productions if they'd make something of quality. Renegades was some of the most awful shit I've ever watched (and I've seen Starship Troopers 3). Surely they're capable of making something better.
Axanar looked genuinely good, and maybe that scared CBS. But CBS handled it in the wrong way. They should have tried to profit off it by making it semi-official (not canon, but maybe a licensed production).
If Axanar was shit, they wouldn't be out much. But if Axanar was good, they could have sold it as direct to DVD, done merchandising (toys, models, Attack Wing), and even better? They could have scooped up the talent that made Axanar work.
Instead we got a shitty trailer that inspires zero confidence in the new series, a streaming service no one wanted, and Kirk doing motocross.
>>48260673
>JJTrek
Fuck JJ Abrams, holy fucking shit. The man couldn't be more talentless if he legitimately took a shit and filmed it. He is the fat kid in the back of the class who thinks he's going to be the next Sam Peckinpah because he watches a lot of Westerns.
He has only ever recycled, he has never innovated. There is not a single JJ Abrams movie that will be remembered in 10 years. He ruined Trek and then he and Disney ruined Wars.
>>48260673
>CBS would have nothing to worry about from fan productions if they'd make something of quality.
That explains the paranoia.
>>if you wear a redshirt to the game your PC dies.
>>48260754
>>one-off shotgun scenarios
>>4 players, 1 GM
>>everyone rolls a d4
>>whoever rolled the lowest is the redshirt this week
Honestly the redshirts-are-extra-lives mechanic from the Trek adventure game was the best part.
>>48260754
Picard wore a red shirt.
>>48244358
Explosions are incredibly inefficient propulsion in open space.
The energy is going in all the directions. You are in only one of those directions. There is a massive loss of efficiency.
The enterprise is not designed (very obviously) to make up for that inefficiency.
A warp core detonation, tough causing some subspace and gravimetric effects, would not be sufficient in any reasonable sense to cope with the sudden formation of a supermassive black hole (how much fucking red matter was that?)
>>48260673
Time was you wanted to make money you had to make something you want people to spend money on. Yeah I know some of the best shit in trek is a result of the producers telling the writers 'we don't have a budget for that, write around it.' Necessity is the mother of invention right?
Small problem, a group of execs have convinced themselves that they can use a spin machine to force people to go see bad movies and watch bad television. You have Sony actually attempting to bully people into watching a movie, you have CBS pointing at the people it's attempting to market to and telling them 'You want this!' You've got paid marketers and moderaters deleting well thought out criticisms and leaving shit posting to make their awful product look better by comparison. "See? Our detractors are idiots! Our product is actually good."
And this behaviour kills me because the only way to get good products is to pay for them. Now we have entertainment companies bluntly lying to us, telling us a product is good when they know it's bad. It's one thing to make a bad movie when you're trying to do good, hell some of my favorite fiction is objectively bad.
But we have a mindset now that says 'We don't have to make good products. We just have to fool people into thinking they're good long enough to make money!' Micheal Bay makes crap but he freel admits it's crap and he knows people will buy it. He doesn't make 'bold and powerful decisions' like announcing a character is gay to get some media spotlight.
There's a disturbing trend in hollywood and one is left wondering where it's going.
>>48260861
THAT'S BECAUSE REDSHIRT IS SLANG FOR SECURITY EVEN THOUGH SECURITY WORE GOLD IN TNG AND AFTER
>>48260754
That would be an Era-specific rule.
>TOS Era
If you wear a red shirt, your character dies.
>TNG and after
If you wear a gold shirt your character dies.
>>48260861
Why do you think Riker never lets him beam down?
>>48240260
It's not like it's just Gene who was like that, the Estate of Larry Niven STILL wont talk to Paramount (or whoever it was at the time) over how they screwed them over the Kzinti episodes larry wrote.
>>48260868
It's almost as though you found something implausible in Star Trek. Stop the fucking presses.
>>48238489
That shit ain't got nothing on the D'deridex. Heck, it could probably fit *inside* the D'deridex!
