So /tg/, memes aside what is your honest opinion on Katanas? Like them? Hate them? Don't mind them?Personally I actually ironically like Katanas, I don't feel like they can cut through plate steel or hell even real armor but I do think they're about as fun as most other non-cruciform swords
>>47955362
un-ironically*
>>47955362
I don't mind them if the "canu cut through Steelu" and "Folded ovel hundled times" shit stays out.
Basically, if a katana is treated as appropriate for the setting in relation to other swords, I don't mind them.
>>47955362
I always feel like in a game magic swords should embody the idea of the form rather than the real thing. It makes it much more interesting when people are fighting with ideas shaped into weapons than just swords
>>47955362
They look pretty cool, and I actually don't mind cuts-through-tanks katanas as long as other swords are able to do the same.
Katanas were excellent weapons for the time and place they were used. If they sucked, people wouldn't have continued to use them for 900 years.
Of course a Katana is more of a badge of rank than a battlefield weapon. The weapons that actually did the damage in medieval Japanese battles were the long infantry spear known as the yari, naginata or bows.
>>47955362
I'm a HEMAfag and I think they're cool as fuck.
>>47955362
I hate the way they look, the round guard just seems so useless.
They have nice sheaths though, especially with the tassels.
>>47955362
The katana worked in Highlander because it's made really clear Ramirez's was an exceptionally well-made weapon by ant standard. It was unique, and the fact it was a katana had more to do with where he got it rather than genuine katana wank.
Basically, I have no issue with katanas as long as they're not treated as some super sword
>>47955362
They're swords, dude. Swords are cool, katanas are swords, therefore katanas are cool.
>>47955362
Katana's are really beautiful to look at. Historically they were last resort weapons. However, i have a child-like hardon for Japanese things and katanas and as such would love to either run a fedual Japanese or play as a samurai in D&D/Pathfinder. Never gotten to do it though.
>>47955362
I prefer Daos & Jians.
but katanas are a meme
I like their curved aesthetic. A softly curving blade is cool. I would like sabers, but the enclosed knuckle guards on them are nowhere near as stylish as the tsuba. Scimitars and daos are too fat.
In fact nearly everything about kenjutsu is unbelievably enchanting. The poses, the rigidity of the movements (I enjoy that it's not actually fluid, but typically a series of fixed motions), the ferocity of a full-swing overhead strike, the entire ensemble is cinematic as fuck.
>>47955362
why would you need katana in your setting when you can have sabre?
>>47955362
it's a tool like any other sword. designed with it's own specific uses in mind. not inherently superior or inferior to any other sword.
>>47955362
I like them, I think they look cool. They work as a nice side-arm, or work for being in a tight corridor or a room with a high ceiling.
But to take on multiple enemies at once or encased in armor? No thanks.
Also, watching Highlander as an adult, it's really weird seeing Connor go up against Kurgan with a short katana against a super huge broadsword.
>>47955362
in the debate of katana vesus boardsword versus knife versus stylish gunplay, it falls into the same debate as teleporting versus super speed versus having a vehicle.
Each one is going to have different themes and feels that I'd like for certain moments, characters, and concepts.
Now, being a bit of a weab, I tend to like the katana, but usually it needs to be in the hands of a Japanese character or there needs to be some in-character explanation for it (like the character being a weab themselves.)
>>47956248
The fact that they didn't have a good substitute for the Kurgan is also a big reason why the other movies are less fun to watch.
>>47955362
While nowhere near as amazing as the weebs would have you think, they were fantastic blades when it came to cutting lightly or unarmored opponents, even better than the longsword at such a task as most curved blades are. I think they're great if used in a practical and historical manner and not up scaled into Sacred Blacksmith levels of bullshit.
If it's some fantasy setting where everyone wields enchanted or legendary weapons, then I really don't mind if they go a little wacky.
>>47956659
Well, that and the fact none of them are as well-written or well-acted.
Weirdly enough, it's actually harder to find unedited versions of Highlander II. Most versions are those Renegade Editions which cut out all the Zeist shit.
>>47956768
>>47956659
Tbh the original movie was originally supposed to be all there was, right? And Connor vs Kurgan were the last two Immortals in existence and when Connor won the prize was mortality and the ability to have a family or something
I dig the whole iaido thing, drawing and sheathing seems more aesthetic than other sword styles
>>47956768
Well, the Zeist shit is kinda dumb. It's still dumb with the Renegade edition.
>>47956881
Yeah, the first movie is written in a such a way that non of the sequels makes sense or they are insulting.
>>47956005
A man of taste, I see.
>>47955446
Spears always did the most damage in melee. Any actual professional soldier will prefer to use the weapon that keeps his enemy as far away as possible, so if you had your choice it was always either the spear or the bow or something similar to those two. The reason the sword became so iconic is just because it was the most common backup weapon.
>>47957332
Well, there are doppelsöldners who were professional and used swords... although their swords were long enough to be considered short polearms easily.
>>47955362
I don't mind them if they have a place in a given setting.
>>47955409
>I don't mind them if the "canu cut through Steelu" and "Folded ovel hundled times" shit stays out.
Also, this.
wasn't the last movie post apocalyptic?
>>47955362
There are some things people need to realize about samurai and katanas
Samurai are predominantly horse archers, if they are using their katanas there is already a failure in their preferred tactics.
The japanese of the time had a weird religious fixations. Believing the katana was related to a warrior's soul and it's a sacred construct prevents technological advancement of the item to prevent the desecration of it in a spiritual sense. Technological stagnation is never good. There's a reason European sword designs kept altering. To make them better. Another retarded spiritual significance to the Japanese made the use of a shield taboo meanwhile nearly every other culture in history has used shields.
Now the katana was designed to be wielded on horseback against illiterate Japanese serfs that weren't good enough to waste an arrow on.
It's disadvantages because of this results in it being ineffective against armor, ineffective at close combat, ineffective in formations. The Japanese didn't fight that way partly because of their 'sacred' swords.
>tl;dr Japanese allowed religion and spirituality to influence how to fight resulting in self-inflicted handicaps. The katana is okay in several areas but excellent at nothing in particular making it a terrible sword for large scale organized combat.
>>47957511
I think for storytelling it's a two sided coin. In one instance katanas are down a peg in usefulness while on the other side they have the coolest lore
>>47955939
I agree with this individual.
>>47957511
You reek of reddit
>stagnation is never good!
>Japan was stupid for believing in religion! *tips fedora*
Your post is filled with historical inaccuracies and just plain biased opinions. Fuck off.
>>47955362
They're just swords
Literally just swords
There's nothing special about them. They're just another fucking sword, same as any other
They aren't particularly good. They aren't particularly bad. They just are
I like their aesthetic, if it fits the setting and person carrying it in a game has a reason to then sure thing.
I know nothing about the actual swords themselves or any terminology. But I like the soft curve the blades have, in my ideal fantasies, Katanas are used in a manner similar to Kendo fighters, with two hands upon the blade and a lot of vertical strikes.
>>47955362
They're shortish backswords with long hilts and underdeveloped pommels. They've also got brittle edges and less ductile blades, although they'll take a slightly sharper edge than Western equivalents.
All in all, the katana is a less developed design than the Medieval longsword, but it will still kill you just as dead.
>>47957614
>underdeveloped pommels
Sorry, underdeveloped crossguards. They've got no pommel, hence the long hilt.
>>47957511
By the Sengoku period, samurai were no longer primarily horse archers. Your post is riddled with historical inaccuracies
>>47957605
That's actually how they were used in formal duels. The one-handed method was something that was highly discouraged and a two-handed dual wielding style of the kodachi and katana was only really thought up by Musashi.
>>47957555
>You reek of reddit
I don't use reddit
>historical inaccuracies
citation needed
>biased opinions
that is impossible for anyone to eliminate from any argument thinking human nature can provide unbiased opinions is incredibly naive.
>Fuck off
Opinion was asked of me, I provided. However I did not ask for an Asperger's opinion of my opinion in return. Sit down and take your inhaler.
>>47955362
I don't care in general, they're a fancy looking sword and I like swords.
That being said, people who use katanas and like katanas are giant fags about it, and that perverts my whole opinion on them. They're the sigil of the faggot, and despite my personal preferences, I'd rather not associate with people who like them.
>>47957653
>citation needed
As said before by another anon, samurai stopped using horses in large scale combat after Warring States period. The samurai most people remember is of the Edo Period, ironically AFTER the Sengoku Jidai. If you want to know more, you can read all about it on the numberous books on the history of Japan and samurai as a whole. Take from someone who has a degree in Japanese history and has been studying it for the majority of their life, you are wrong when you say that samurai primarily fought on horseback.
> incredibly naive.
It is the goal of academic thought to eliminate as much subjective thought as possible and try to think objectively.
Katanas are pretty, unfortunately sword like objects have really damaged the perception of all swords.
I still prefer european swords myself, but I will say if you ever get to handle a katana take a close look at the hamon(where the metal transitions from hard to soft), they are very interesting.
>>47957473
They also were used more for breaking pikes than against other soldiers. Its hard to use them in tight formation (though half-swording helps). That's what sidearms were for.
>>47957629
>Sengoku period
>no longer primarily horse archers
No shit they had blackpowder weapons then.
>>47957724
The popular idea of the samurai comes from the Edo and Sengoku periods so trying to compare a Heian samurai to a Sengoku samurai is futile.
>>47955362
It's...a sword? It's a sword made in the Japanese style, ideally by actual Japanese.
>>47957629
True. By then, they used handguns.
>>47957622
Which mean that you can't unscrew the (non-existant) pommel and end your opponent rightly.
>>47957710
>has a degree in Japanese history
No I don't think you do. You display yourself like a anime buff or a cosplayer enthusiast.
>>47957793
Believe whatever you want to believe. Nothing I can do to stop you.
>>47955362
I've watched documentaries on bladed weaponry for the sake of my players. I have to say, the katana has it's uses. I think they're given a bad wrap for all the memes that surround them, but so long as they're used in solo combat against an unarmored opponent, a katana is a decent weapon.
Though if I were to pick, outside of that circumstance, there is always a better tool for the job. Katanas aren't really a 'god weapon', infact, they're kind of useless if you ever fight anyone who isn't willing to go solo AND unarmored. Once you reached the medieval era where people would use shit like full knight suits, if someone ran at me with a katana I'd laugh my ass off.
That all said, I think the Katana is one of the more iconic weapons in history. Due to the memes, the lore, and the overall 'appreciation' for the blade, many people will know what a Katana is when they mention it. If I ask them what a Rondel Dagger is, they might just shrug at me. surprised such a thing exists. As a result, I don't blame you for liking them. It's like liking Superman. Sure he's not perfect, but he's so iconic it's not wrong to enjoy him.
>>47957637
>and a two-handed dual wielding style of the kodachi and katana was only really thought up by Musashi.
Even then it was only really a practice style, because Musashi believed a good warrior needs to know how to kill with either hand and be skilled in various weapons. According to him, sticking to one sword stifles people and makes them predictable, and therefore easy to kill.
Thus, a training style that forces you to use both hands and two different weapons.
>>47955362
I hate the memetana, but there's nothing wrong with the sword design itself. I think it would be nothing more or less than a two-handed saber if historical models were made of good metal.
That's honestly the kicker, from an historical perspective. The swords were astonishingly well-made for what they were. But ultimately what they were were heterogeneous swords made of one kind of pig-iron and another kind of pig-iron that resulted in something that did the job fine for what it was; but could not compare to other swords of the European medieval high and late eras.
The design doesn't really have anything wrong with it. In fact, the geometry is quite nice for a multi-purpose weapon that has more emphasis on the cut than the thrust. But the katana that everyone knows is made of shit iron, and unfortunately it's evolved into a meme that's difficult to avoid from the ignorant.
out sheer wonder how can a katana be improved to be comparable to an longsword?
>inb4 folditmore
>>47957724
And bows, and spears, and katanas
They were one part of a combined arms machine
>>47957332
>Spears always did the most damage in melee.
We're talking about Japan. They got statistic that clearly demonstrate that like 90% of all registered kills were due to arrows and spears only ever killed like three people.
It's pretty hilarious, really. Though they generally believed that you were pretty much dead if a spear gets you while everything else is painful but survivable.
>>47957473
A doppelsöldner was a lot of things, starting with somebody who brought along his own gear, somebody who could claim veteran status and somebody who'd take dangerous duty, be that in the frontlines or by protecting the banner... sometimes they used twohanders.
>>47955362
They're a fucking sword and 99% of elfgames don't need to get more granular than that.
>>47957909
Don't make it out of shit metal, probably straighten the design out a tad.
>>47957854
>Katanas aren't really a 'god weapon', infact, they're kind of useless if you ever fight anyone who isn't willing to go solo AND unarmored.
Eh, it's not like a whole slew of after-battle reports mention friends or servants playing a pivotal role and it's not like flipping the armour's skirt is constantly mentioned as the usual way of fatally stabbing somebody into his belly.
>>47957935
>>47957909
>shit metal maymay
I'm pretty certain that they didn't care, seeing how it allowed them to produce their own metal rather than depend on court imported iron or steel.
It's like how all of ya would just as gladly pump your car with fracking oil-derived fuel.
>>47957909
It would have to be a lot longer.
Katanas are shorter than one handed sabres and some even approach gladius length.
>>47955362
They're a cool looking sword, I think the slashing focused fighting style is pretty neat. They're a bit brittle. They're not good for much other than honorabru duels and cutting down peasants, but that can be cool in its own right.
>>47956062
I really want to travel back in time as a disembodied observer and see the art used in live combat. One thing is to imagine it, another is to see it embodied by a person who has devoted time to practice in it.
>>47957511
Lol, by the time the katana was actually introduced the samurai were fighting on foot with spears and later guns.
The tachi was the weapon of a horse archer.
>>47957511
>There's a reason European sword designs kept altering
>>47957909
Katanas were side arms, the main killing was done by bow, gun, spear, helebard, grenade.
They did not need to be that long.
>>47957935
The metal was fine after working with it.
And the curving was intentional. It got more as time went by. Japanese swords started straight.
>>47958165
Longer versions existed, those were held with both hands, compared to the bastard Katana.
>>47958165
The gladius leigth ones are not called Katana, tho.
>>47957511
It's amazing how little of this post is factually correct at all.
I'm a fan of how they look, and I'm a big fan of the samurai aesthetic. I've watched one too many Kurosawa films I guess. But a katana is just a sword, intended to be used in a particular way. It's fine at that, great even. It isn't shit, it isn't a wonder weapon, it's just a sword.
>>47958418
>Lol, by the time the katana was actually introduced the samurai were fighting on foot with spears and later guns.
Guns AND Samurai fighting as infantry? During the 1100s? Your grasp on basic world history seems tenuous.
Katanas are the best weapons you can use against enemies in clothes/light armor. That said, using a katana against an opponent in heavy armor is like trying to punch a hole in your own head.
>>47958672
>Katanas are the best weapons you can use against enemies in clothes/light armor.
People who had to actually deal with fabric armour apparently disagree.
>>47955362
I only like them in games set in/based on Japan during time periods where their use makes sense or in Cyberpunk.
>>47958740
>katana with a modified blade
I fail to see your point. They had different materials and an entirely different forging process. The point is the blade geometry is pretty darn close to a katana.
>>47955362
I like them a lot. I like to think I'm under no illusions about what they're capable of and my PCs always tend to have one, even if it's just something on a wall in their home.
>>47955362
Completely fine weapon, ruined by horrible fan base.
>>47955362
Katanas are cool, imo. I don't even mind some degree of nonsense to make them cleave (ba dum tish) closer to the whole 'iajutsu dex weapon perfect cut' thing so long as other swords get some comparable bonus?
>>47958756
are you trying to bait me here? This one's about 2.5 times as broad as a Katana.
>>47955362
They're amazing slashing weapons. No argument. They are elegantly and beautifully designed. Seeing a centuries-old true-forged katana at a museum makes me moist.
>>47955362
How does a katana work in terms of a character using it?
I don't particularly mind them.
Until my one of my players start calling them this, and another one designs a Samurai class and gives them a Save or Die capstone on crits, and then gives one archetype a free +3 weapon and 17-20 crit range.
It's bullshit Ryan, and you fucking know it.
>>47961314
Exactly like a bastard sword with longsword stats.
>>47958160
The point is that it costs 2 dollars a gallon not 10
I have nothing against katanas or wakizashi them but I'm not a huge fan of trying to work them into 3.PF and 5 beyond reskinning the longsword and the scimitar. Things like blade sharpness or durability aren't modeled precisely enough to make it possible to create useful mechanics for it.
I did once threaten a player with a katana mechanic, though. I proclaimed if he wouldn't just take a reskinned longsword than we'd make it a 1d8 with the mechanic that it autoconfirmed 4x crits but was instantly, permanently, magically ruined on a botch, attack that hit but dealt no damage, or any sunder damage. He went with the reskinned longsword. Can't say I blame him, that was a terrible weapon.
Also, I don't miss 3.PF
>>47955362
I personally prefer Falchions, Scimitars and Messers, though Katanas are fine as long as they're not out of place and aren't the ultimate be-all end-all sword that cuts through anything.
>>47956005
the fedora of katanas, just gotta tryhard even with weeaboo swords huh
>>47966030
Nigga, jian literally means "sword". It's as generic as it comes without using the world "blade"
>>47966030
>>47966440
Dao is similar. I means "Blade". Nothing special name-wise.
>>47956005
My Chinese nigga.
>>47956113
Sabre not two handed
>>47966440
>>47966483
This reminds me that in Hero someone brings up that the Chinese had like 22 different ways to write sword.
>>47957907
The Roman's had a term for cultures that had swords designed for cutting instead of thrusting.
Faggots
>>47955362
They're heavier versions of the saber with poorer balance and worse hilts/crossguards
They're neat in style, and make sense from a historical perspective of an iron poor country, but I don't think they're the best sword for the purpose of swording, i.e. killing and maiming my fellow man.
My game is set in Kyoto. They show up. They're nothing special.
>>47966551
Why the fuck are you using a two handed sword then that does jack shit against armor? The thing about Katanas is that their design was always pretty shitty, and primarily worked because Japan was a xenophobic no fly zone nobody wanted to bother invading. If you want to kill lightly armed peasant fodder, you use a rapier or sabre for greater reach and finesse, or alternatively a zweihander to crush clean through their blocks.
Because not everyone wears fucking plate armor, or maybe there is no plate armor in your setting, maybe because it's before the renaissance which means every sword is shit against armor anyway.
>>47956062
>I would like sabers, but the enclosed knuckle guards on them are nowhere near as stylish as the tsuba
You might like Vietnamese swords then.
Knuckle bow sabers with Asian stylings.
>>47955362
If I wanted a curved sword, I'd wield a goddamned cutlass.
>>47955362
I'm more a Khopesh man myself, but fighting styles aside, as long as the sword can cut a person well enough to draw blood in a single swing on an unarmored area then it's fine. Otherwise it's just a shitty sword and should either be smelted into something usable or scrapped into Tetanus Bolts.
They are literally garbage blades. There is nothing the Japs did to swordmaking that those in Europe didn't do better, earlier and for longer. In Europe they experimented with all swords of shapes, styles, weights, lengths, blades, metals and alloys.
The Japanese did not, they found one they liked and put it in to laws. The katana was only good for cutting and intimidating peasants, the rest was pretty useless at most other things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLWzH_1eZsc
>>47955362
It's just another sword to me, to be used when thematically appropriate to the setting and game, even if that thematic part is silly (such as the prevalence of katana in stuff like Shadowrun due to when the game was made) and born of ridiculous romanticizing of Japanese stuff as was common in the 80's and early-to-mid 90's.
The thing about katanas is that they are a "the thing about [word]" subject, meaning no less then thirty times on this one goddamn thread will people express incredibly wildly diverging opinions with a ridiculous amount of passion, anger, or vehemence all aimed at what amounts to a type of object that was reasonably effective for what it was trying to accomplish and where and when in the world it was trying to accomplish it.
It's like getting passionate about ladders being inferior to escalators; yes, escalators are easier. But sometimes you don't have an escalator. Sometimes you have a ladder instead and you make do because nobody else in the time period and geographical area you are in has the ability or need to create escalators.
Frankly this thread would be more interesting and unique if it at least did something original like going off on a rant about the superiority of Japanese weaponry (including modern firearms) in general rather then re-tread this tired old garbage and go into detail about how passionate they are about a random object.
>>47958447
>9 whole changes in 500 years!
:^)
>>47955362
I'm generally weeb as fuck in outlook and playstyle, but I tend to give katanas the same amount of game-space as most other swords. All weapons are represented fairly in the overpowered high-fantasy shitshow that is my game.
>>47968100
>Muh perfect blade
Gotta whole buncha folks in here forgetting the important lesson Thulsa Doom teaches us.
>>47956062
>A softly curving blade is cool
Why do people bother comparing the blades of one island country to the best an entire continent has to offer?
Of course the Japanese ones are going to look like shit.
>>47957718
Ive read that as well but I find that claim kind of suspiscious.
>>47967297
A katana would probably be better than a rapier or saber for killing peasants. Its probably better at chopping through clothes and bone because it is two handed. A rapier cant kill with a cut and even a thrust clean through someones body could prove to be non-lethal in the short term and get your weapon stuck.
Reach isnt an important variable against farm implements.
>>47968457
Anything is better than a rapier for killing people. Rapiers are toys for fops.
>>47968250
Compare it to the ones the Celts alone made. The Japanese blades look like beautiful, very asthetically pleasing but they are garbage as weapons.
They handcuffed themselves by a design intended to kill the unarmed and unarmed. They are not, repeat not, used for any serious war making on a battlefield.
The Katana at the end of the day is a tool of intimidation. There was even a name for testing out a new blade on a weak, defenseless passer by.
Tsujigiri (辻斬り or 辻斬 tsuji-giri, literally 'crossroads killing') is a Japanese term for a practice when a samurai, after receiving a new katana or developing a new fighting style or weapon, tests its effectiveness by attacking a human opponent, usually a random defenseless passer-by, in many cases during nighttime.
The practitioners themselves are also referred to as tsujigiri.
There was Kiri-sute gomen, the right for the samurai to kill peasants for a percieved slight.
>samurai confirmed for slanty-eye-nigs.
>>47968457
The "killing peasants" thing is a fairly ridiculous meme that started, as far as I can tell, right here on /tg/.
By the time the modern version of the katana (and the weapon literally everyone on this thread is discussing) was even adopted as a weapon as an adaption of the much more heavily curves cavalry sabers more and more of Japan's feudal armies were composed of professional ashigaru soldiers out of necessity who wore armor in combat, also out of necessity.
However the katana (like most swords of the time period) wasn't really meant to be a primary weapon in the middle of a war zone and spears and guns and cavalry charges dominated in Sengoku Japan like they did everywhere else.
Especially the guns.
They loved their guns.
I think the meme comes from samurai using it to execute peasants in the century or two AFTER the civil wars. That STILL wasn't when the katana was designed or what it was designed for; it was just the only weapon the samurai class carried on them so it's what they used to execute lower-class individuals who offended them somehow or...well, I guess any other reason they could find to do it since they were kinda humongous dicks as a caste.
Even then the meme is off; at that point relatively few samurai even carried a full-sized katana on them (though officers or soldiers or lesser samurai making some kind of statement about their martial strength often did) and instead carried only a shorter sword which most never even used and they only carried as a mark of their social status.
>>47968654
>They loved their guns.
/k/ here, no they didn't. They still do not. Literally still harp on about loving the blade despite never, in their history, having done anything near the European melees against other countries.
They also have no notable firearms industry, despite being amongst the best in the world in R&D, machining, automation and many others they have not gone near firearms because they, as a culture, despite them.
>>47968575
No. Wrong.
Rapiers are tools, specialized tools for one-on-one combat against unarmored foes and are highly efficient at that task.
Real life is not some magical fantasy vaccume where you compare things from eras ventures apart on the same scale, like comparing a thrown rock to a tactical nuclear weapon.
All weapons are made to serve a FUNCTION and not a grading scale of high to low. That function is largely determined by the time period it was invented and the needs of those who invented it in said time period.
Comparing them out of context by scale across time and geographical regions that they never could have existed in instead comes up with a simpler result; ALL swords, each and every one of them regardless of when and where they were made, are tactically inferior weapons because they aren't fully automatic rifles, an objectively more efficient tool for ending human lives by a such a ridiculous margin that you can't even see what a sword looks like anymore from where it stands.
>>47957710
Dweeb
>>47968720
Reality here; comparing modern Japan to feudal Japan is like comparing America in the 1500's to America in the 2000.
It's not even the same fucking country ya dingus. It's the same LANDMASS.
Even the goddamn cultural values are different.
>>47968749
They share SOME values still.
>>47966684
They used that term for all people who invented things and tried out new stuff.
It's why their helmets were gallic, their swords were spanish and their armour celtic. About the only thing they managed to create on their own was a roughly rectangular board of wood.
>>47968457
U wot
A rapier doesn't get stuck in a body, and it's one of the most efficient means of putting a guy DOWN. The chief cause of death when dealing with swords isn't cutting or slicing- it's dealing trauma to the body's core. You know what does a lot of trauma? Getting a quick couple thrusts in from a very safe distance and perforating the organs of your opponent, all from a distance greater than even longswords can strike at. The only problem is that a rapier is completely useless against armor, but will make short work of anybody out of it.
>>47968588
>>samurai confirmed for slanty-eye-southern gentlemen of the finest breeding
More likely.
>>47968758
Yeah, the ones carbon-bases bipedal lifeforms do and those features that derive from them.
>Samurai values
Social standing, importance placed on appearances and "face", martial prowess (even when irrelevant to the era), stoic behavior, most Buddhist virtues, and absolute loyalty. Dying in battle considered glorious, though later in said deaths were nearly nonexistent.
>Modern Japanese values
Excellent at school so you can realistically hope to gain a successful career, hopefully at a prestigious business because that ensures better promotions. Kiss everyone's ass and stay out of the way until you're important enough to make everyone ELSE kiss YOUR ass. Loyalty valued, but only as much as in any developed western society. Emotions are okay to express, so long as you don't make like a crazy person. Death not admired, but personal suicide actually more common then with old samurai castes as dozens of people fall into depression and fatalistic beliefs about their nation's flagging economy and dire economic prospects and seeming total inability to adapt to social changes happening to them.
Modern Japan is basically an entire nation of the stereotypical 80's stock-broker who commits suicide at Christmas due to how empty his life is and how meaningless all his efforts seem to be at the moment.
>>47968749
Nothing in my statement was incorrect, anon. The only real difference is that after the bombs fell on them, the spirit of the fight went out of them completely as a nation. Just like it did with Western Germany.
Their values are directly traceable through their society. Sure they no longer cut themselves open when they fuck up, but there is still the immense sense of shame they can feel.
The values have remained fairly unchanged as it is a nation that has existed in almost complete isolation for most of its history. The only thing that is changed is the actions that result from their values. Japan still has high suicide rates associated with shame and honorable deaths, they still have a direct chain of commands and follow them.
>Pic related, how i saw myself in Okinawa, not in any way how i was.
>>47968792
Pssht, Europeans were in the thick of the fighting, rarely debarred arms from its peasants and ruled through force of might against an armed population not a timid bitch population like the Japs.
>>47968776
>The only problem is that a rapier is completely useless against armor
Thankfully basically no one ever wore it when rapiers were involved in a fight.
>>47968818
The correct part of your statement involves the nation's love affair with death, though these days it's just fatalism and mass depression.
Killing yourself as a samurai made everything okay with everyone and often cast shame on OTHER parties because you had the balls to do the deed and if they don't too then they look like pussies to the level of commitment you showed.
Now they do it because they just want to die.Despite being of Nip descent myself I've something of a distast of modern Japanese culture (and older Japanese culture I suppose) born of exposure to it from my grandparents, who seem determined to be a stereotypical as they can possibly manage and love to tell us about the good old days.
>>47968818
>rarely debarred arms from its peasants
The messer exists because it was a way through a legal loophole that defined swords as having two edges.
A loophole that was quickly closed. Weapons were only carried by nobility.
>>47968100
>One change every half-century or so
For an Iron Age civilization, that's really quite good.
>>47968861
That was in... Germany, wasn't it? For the most part in Europe, there was never a time when the whole of the peasant population was prevented from weapons of various types. Never were they forced to use farming equipment, save for the polearm/spears and those like them which became valid weapons in of themselves.
>>47968859
There is nothing in your post that discounts what I said, their is a massive shame-based culture much like the Middle-Eastern honor killings only this is targeted at the self rather than another. You bring shame on the family, you must die.
>>47955362
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGMj7o6AwnM
Here's a documentary on reproducing a Tsuba (handguard) for a sword.
I like it because it shows that at least for some periods, Katana were as much status symbols as they were practical weapons. You don't have a handguard that's made of silver alloy and takes months of skilled labor to create on a sword that's going to see serious combat. You're going to want to spend that money on more dudes and more swords.
>>47968926
>Tsuba (handguard) for a sword.
Why does it become tsuba when we talk about Japan? Because we discuss a Spanish epee or something it does not become a protector de la mano or a handschutz when we talk about a Geman zweihander.
The name of the sword is of no consquence as there are thousands of them, but parts of it are pretty much the same.
>Pic related, my sleagh
>>47968926
Europeans made decorative swords all the time.
>>47968902
>You bring shame on the family, you must die.
See, this is the part you get wrong.
Also everyone else gets wrong.
The "SHAME ON MY FAMIRY" shit is incredibly stereotypical, and like most stereotypes has a gain of truth buried in a sea of bullshit an entire culture saw in Literally Just A Bunch Of Movies.
Generally older folks (50+) will feel the "family shame" part, but what it's more about now is PERSONAL failure.
The peer pressure involved in the country to conform to an idealized standard is legitimately deeply unhealthy; basically imagine an entire country stuck in high school where if you weren't a Grade-A student with an impressive football record you are considered, at the very least, a marginal failure by society.
Your parents are actually quite supportive, but this attitude comes from when Japan reinvented itself after the 60's and their Bubble Economy happened, so that the entire of the culture started focusing on how "productive" you were.
The similarities between older Japanese culture and modern have nothing do to with honor, face, and shame and everything to do with something much subtler, namely an immense social pressure to conform to a nearly unreadable personal ideal though those two ideals are wildly opposed to each other on pretty much every conceivable level except for the part where in both of them your eyes have to he slanty.
Excuse me while I take a bite of my hamburger covered in barbecue sauce and thank holy Jesus I never had to grow up there and only go there to visit some relatives who strongly express a desire to leave as soon as possible.
>>47968776
>The chief cause of death when dealing with swords isn't cutting or slicing
Depends on the sword. Not every sword is a thrusting sword anon.
>>47968985
>shit is incredibly stereotypical, and like most stereotypes has a gain of truth buried in a sea of bullshit an entire culture saw in Literally Just A Bunch Of Movies.
No stereotypes are made when the majority follow it and the minority don't. I will agree that this is typically for the middle aged and older, but that is current and a massive problem to Japan. Typically it is done in bussiness as well, not just personal family matters. If the fuck up is big enough and the shame they heap on themselves enough, suicide will come.
It is fading, yes, we all know that. The new generation, as with every one in the world, are drifting away from long held cultural norms and traditions (Which I maintain is bad) in favor of a dull monoculture of the world.
The rest of waht you say is of no bearing on the conversation, it is all true but nothing to do with the discussion.
>>47955362
There's nothing particularly wrong with them as swords. Europeans at the time who encountered them thought they were neat, but they didn't spazz out too hard over them.
>>47968956
Sometimes we do. People very often call big German swords zweihanders instead of just "two-handers," and they still call the Scottish ones claymores instead of broadswords. With the tsuba, it's probably because it's a very distinctive handguard design, nobody in the West really did it like that, so people remember what it's called.
>>47968588
There is very little evidence to suggest that the Katana was a particularly poor battlefield weapon. Obviously nobody ever cuts through armor, that's just not realistic.
That said they've done tests before where they beat the shit out of Japanese armor with Katanas and they found that you can actually defeat the army pretty well with the sword in some circumstances, because a lot of the armor was basically held together by string. A blow to one of the shoulder guards could cause it to fall off, and because the weapon is very short for its length, it's also heavy, and once they actually succeeded in denting in the breastplate and seriously damaging the helmet, which may have as much to do with mediocre armoring technology as it did with the quality of the sword, but nevertheless.
Documents of the time go into autistic detail about swordfights because that's just how the Nips were, and the general consensus seems to be that armored men would just beat the shit out of each other with their swords until one of them was too tired and hurt to continue, at which point the other guy would slit his throat and behead him. Seems more or less like what they did in Yurop.
Obviously you'd rather have a spear or a polearm--and they did, just like everyone in Europe did--but people carry swords because you don't always have a choice in the matter of what weapon you get to use. I think the Katana was fine. The pendulum has just swung so hard from mindless adoration of the thing that now it's cool to call it a piece of shit.
>>47969037
>If the fuck up is big enough and the shame they heap on themselves enough, suicide will come.
Fair enough, but that's equally true of Americans and for the exact same reasons; depression and fatalism.
Nips just do it more because there's a cultural precedent of it being "okay" and the cultural's strongly ingrained religious beliefs have no technical taboos against it (reincarnation and shit).
>(Which I maintain is bad)
Out of genuine curiosity that otherwise outstrips my interest in this entire ridiculous thread; why?
I don't think it's bad or good.
It just IS, like gravity or fire being hot or ice being cold; things change with time, and the meanings we attach to these things are as temporary and inherently without definite meaning as our individual lives are to the course of history as a whole, subject to change as generations move on because when we die it's physically impossible for us to correct people on what we truly meant and believed when we first meant and believed things.
Is it bad because it just "feels" bad to you and you personally dislike it, or do you have some kind of specific reasoning behind it?
>>47969084
It's cliched to call people sheep, but holy shit people are fucking sheep when it comes to stuff like katanameme.
It was just a tool that got overfetishized by a culture and some people have no self-control over their reactions to it's existence and the now incredibly-dated fad created around it.
>>47968902
>For the most part in Europe, there was never a time when the whole of the peasant population was prevented from weapons of various types
This is very, very wrong. Peasants didn't carry weapons except those used for hunting in pretty much every civilized society that has ever existed - the idea of a universal right to bear arms is only about 300 years old, and exists thanks to the efforts of a bunch of godless liberals.
If you're talking about access to weapons under certain circumstances (pressed into service most likely), then your statement is correct for both the East and West.
>>47969084
>There is very little evidence to suggest that the Katana was a particularly poor battlefield weapon.
Then by default there is no evidence it was good, therefore we can assume it was not used at all as a battlefield weapon.
>A blow to one of the shoulder guards could cause it to fall off, and because the weapon is very short for its length, it's also heavy, and once they actually succeeded in denting in the breastplate and seriously damaging the helmet, which may have as much to do with mediocre armoring technology as it did with the quality of the sword, but nevertheless.
Good luck hitting a piece of string when shit is flying around you, there's smoke, arrows, sweat, blood and mud all over. Try a rugby game, I could not see shit. If in controlled and perfect conditions they were able to once dent armor that is horrific for battlefield conditions.
>Documents of the time go into autistic detail about swordfights because that's just how the Nips were, and the general consensus seems to be that armored men would just beat the shit out of each other with their swords until one of them was too tired and hurt to continue, at which point the other guy would slit his throat and behead him. Seems more or less like what they did in Yurop.
No, not at all, brutal armor being smashed in to your stomach to rupture you as you bleed out under a stampede of hob-nail boots. Swords denting armor and shattering the bones of your elbow then letting you scream until another comes at you with a mace to crush your head. Look at any fighting manuel and they typically go in to dueling, not angry mass melee.
>people carry swords because you don't always have a choice in the matter of what weapon you get to use. I think the Katana was fine.
You can think what you wish anon, their laws made them carry a weapon that was terrible at war but great for keeping a serf population in line.
>>47969154
>Look at any fighting manuel and they typically go in to dueling, not angry mass melee.
That's true of European fighting manuals as well though? Like...all of them, actually?
They're all about duels and dueling etiquette, just with different weapons based on the time period.
>>47969095
I believe our differences are what make us able to compete so effectively. Almost all advances are made when two peoples compete, it drives industry, invention, research and encourages tourism. We should all have some pride in our ancestry, our culture and what it has done. Japan has amazing stuff to be proud of, their cusine is unlike anything in the world for example. But enough of that I do not wish to go full /pol/,
>>47969120
Of course, the main obstacle for peasants owning weapons was the price. This was typically it across Europe. But at few points were they killed for owning them, or exclusively prohibited from owning what is essentially a sword. The Japanese had, and still do, have an almost fetishitic jealousy of their horrific steel swords and forbade on penalty of death peasants from using them.
Had they more resources perhaps it would of been better for them to experiment in smelting ores, chemical makeup and more.
>>47969204
>Almost all advances are made when two peoples compete, it drives industry, invention, research and encourages tourism.
This I understand.
I'm an avowed capitalist so I agree that economic competition is good and excellent. Of course there's responsible capitalism and irresponsible capitalism the same way lighting matches and flinging them onto wooden floors is irresponsible use of fire, but that's true of everything in life we make I suppose.
>We should all have some pride in our ancestry, our culture and what it has done.
I suppose I get this too.
I'm pretty detached from my "roots" because I have difficulty relating into the sadsack depression-fueled peer pressure-driven myopic culture Japan currently is stuck in, but I actually like hearing stories about the way back when.
Blame Stan Sakai's comics I guess.
I don't think culture itself needs to "compete" to advance though, because that assumes "culture" is this scaling grade where it evolves over time like it's a freakin' Pokemon or something; it changes in adaption to more grounded and practical things like resource availability, politics, and the economy. There's no "end goal" to a culture, or even society in general as it's more or less an accidental byproduct of human activity.
>Japan has amazing stuff to be proud of, their cuisine is unlike anything in the world for example.
It's not bad. I like the barbecue and the rice bowls and that delicious fucking eel they have, unagi.
I'll admit the emphasis on the food looking as pretty as possible is impressive in it's results; the only other cuisine I can think of off the bat that's as anal-retentive about that is French.
Anyway, thank's for satiating my curiosity, that's always an interesting subject matter for me to hear opinions on.
>>47968731
Rapiers are not the most effective weapon for dueling. It's a weapon small and light enough to be conveniently carried, but flashy enough to demonstrate that you're carrying it. It didn't have to evolve to be a specialized dueling weapon, because duels typically have the weapons decided beforehand. You don't just suddenly show up on the day of a duel with a montante. The other guy would just call you a fucking idiot and walk off. The smallsword evolved from the rapier. Do you really think the smallsword is the superior duelists' weapon?
Rapiers exist purely as a compensation device. You wear one to show that you're a manly man, and willing to fight anyone that infringes in your manliness in manly combat.
>>47968993
I'm talking about all swords. The best way to kill somebody is to inflict deep trauma. Cutting doesn't do this unless you practically cleave a man in half, and doing this will typically take quite the exposing strike that leaves you vulnerable.
>>47968902
>That was in... Germany, wasn't it?
Not even. Germany didn't exist back then. A few of its nobles might've tried to disarm its peasants at some occasion though.
>>47969120
>the idea of a universal right to bear arms is only about 300 years old
That's just plain wrong.
>>47955362
Post-Edo period tojo swords just look too short and fat to really get me going. Tachi and Nagamaki are pretty aight though. Seem like better overall infantry weapons with the tachi's longer length and deeper curve for dealing with lighter armored individuals and the nagamaki's leverage over other swords.
Segoku Jidai or earlier or bust.
>>47969354
I mean, it's pretty much the best weapon you can carry around all day without problem, short of maybe buckler+sword.
Assuming you can't just use a gun.
>>47955362
No different in cutting capabilities from western swords, but more fragile.
They make it up with the fact that they are faster in terms of attack speed when wielded by someone trained in katana use.
>>47968142
More bitches?
>>47955362
Not fond of the "Glorious Nippon Steel" meme, but otherwise ambivalent.
Yes, katanas took a lot more work, but that was because Japanese iron was shit, and that work was needed to bring it up to a decent standard, not to make it some kind of super weapon. European iron tended to be better, so their swords were easier to produce.
>>47955362
I kinda like katanas *because* they're not as versatile as european/asian mainlandish swords. Never really enjoyd overpowered weapons to begin with.
They're a rather awkward choise against opponents wearing suits of plated armour, but then again the japanese weren't particularly fond of full plait mails so there was no need for that.
They're a good pick as personal weapons but I'd take an army of plebs with bows and spears over samurai with grorius nipponu steeru braidos anyday.
>>47970417
Which, by the way, is why Japan never went down the metal armour route in the same way Europe did. They just didn't have access to the raw materials.
>>47955362
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about a medieval Jap sabre, no.
>>47968956
>Why does it become tsuba when we talk about Japan?
Because they're collector's items.
>>47955446
Don't forget guns which samurai also used and which is often ignored for some reason.
>>47968731
>Rapiers are tools, specialized tools for one-on-one combat against unarmored foes and are highly efficient at that task.
That would be the Bastard Sword. Rapiers were made for Dueling without necessarily murdering people, and as such, were toys, not swords.
>>47957907
>>That's honestly the kicker, from an historical perspective. The swords were astonishingly well-made for what they were. But ultimately what they were were heterogeneous swords made of one kind of pig-iron and another kind of pig-iron that resulted in something that did the job fine for what it was; but could not compare to other swords of the European medieval high and late eras.
Drifters was kind of funny since there was a scene where a Samurai transplanted into a fantasy world asked a bunch of Master Dwarf smiths to fix his Katana. Que the Dwarves horrified confusion over how convoluted Japanese metal working was, and wondering what kind of shitty ass iron required such techniques.
>>47971127
Reminds me of that R.A. Salvatore book that has the MC's mum make a Katana by welding up folded iron foil.
>>47968861
No, that was because sword making guilds had a monopoly but Messers could be made by anybody because its a knife.
And in many countries every freeman was REQUIRED to own weapons. And every single male traveller who had the money to travel would have a weapon. Stop spreading bullshit.
>>47957511
I honestly don't know from where this 'sword was sacred so they made no advancements to it' meme came from, but it's a flat out lie.
The reason japanse sword are the way they are is for one good and simple reason : The iron ore found in Japan is shit.
That's it, that's also the reason you don't see any fullplate or even halfplate armor in japan, or any round iron shields.(also the reason why you don't really see any warhammers or mauls in feudal japan, they where anti-plate weapons and that just didn't exist in Japan)
The fact that they where able to make a blade out of it that worked as well as it did against typical japanese armor is impressive.
And on that whole 'they made no improvements' thing. They did they experimented with the amounts of folds, heating, cooling, harding. The blade improved a lot over the years, despite not visualy changing.
>>47958598
>guns during 11000
you do know that the feudal era in japan lasted well till the 1800 right?
also the Tanegashima or japanese arquebus was standard equipment in 1500
>>47968200
messer is love messer is life
>>47955362
At one time, Katanas were cool because of the fact that they were "good" despite being made of pig iron. Their smithing was well done or at least intricate and ceremonial, which made them exotic to westerners. What made them lame is that people started to make up shit that can cut through anything and that they are these amazing weapons that were unstoppable of you had a strong spirit. The reality is that any European or middle eastern sword would destroy a katana, literally. Personally, I think that rapiers and estocs and other piercing swords deserve some time in the sun.
>>47972889
>At one time, Katanas were cool because of the fact that they were "good" despite being made of pig iron. Their smithing was well done or at least intricate and ceremonia
The reason they were decent is because of the long, drawn out smithing process of the ore. However, that never improved because it became entirely ceremonial and ritual to the detriment of the craft itself. It does not improve or evovle, it stays stagnant.
Europeans never attached ritual or ceremony to the function of a blade (Largely, may be few indications of certain pieces holding certain properties but not nationwide or country-wide), therefore it was not tied to doing things a certain way. When you tie a ritual to the manufacture of a tool, that tool no longer evolves.
Once a thing is declared traditional, it dies.
>>47973019
Kill yourself, faggot
>>47973087
Not with a katana.
>>47973019
>Once a thing is declared traditional, it dies.
That's a funny thing to say on /traditional games/
>>47966583
19 ways, with the magic 20th wayI just watched it the other day
Such a fucking good movie
>>47955362
It's a meme weapon.
Mainly because it sucks at stabby stab stab.
Stabby stab stab is the thing that kills people. Cutting and slashing is for the fops who couldn't be bothered to do anything but attempt to be the star in their own action movie.
>>47973581
Your so retarded holy shit. gtfo summerfag
>>47973628
>butt hurt weebs
Stabby stab stab yourself faggot.
Your sword a shit.
i've said it before and i'll say it again: katanas are awesome, as a symbol of japanese conservatism. japanese culture is crazy conservative, and the sword that barely changed in hundreds of years is an awesome example of that.
>>47969354
>small and light
that's the exact opposite of what a rapier is. rapiers aren't fencing foils or smallswords.
>>47957907
That's why it was folded so many times: get the impurities out of that shit
>>47971097
You are so ignorant it's hilarious. Rapiers are extremely deadly and were built for quick successive thrusts to the body while keeping the user in relative safety. In a fight between a longsword or katana without armor, the rapier almost always wins because of this reach advantage.
>>47973979
That is why all metal is folded you heaving retard.
>>47974068
They are still heavy and not like potrayed in fantasy with the 'swish' noise after every movement. A believe a foil is what you are thinking of. A rapier was a dueling sword, it was fashionable for the wealthy to hold and to be seen with.
>>47974127
>They are still heavy and not like potrayed in fantasy with the 'swish' noise after every movement. A believe a foil is what you are thinking of. A rapier was a dueling sword, it was fashionable for the wealthy to hold and to be seen with.
I duel with rapiers you mong. They're some of the fastest striking swords ever made with the greatest reach. In a fight with a longsword, katana, or any two handed blade that isn't a god damned montante I can land multiple thrusts to the torso, shoulder, or arm while I remain relatively safe. They're peerless swords that are the best you can get for individual dueling without armor.
They also aren't really heavy. Or at least that heavy compared to SCA fighting. Fucking rattan is a bitch and the most crude, barbaric form I've ever seen. I wish the SCA would just man up and let us fight with blunted steel swords.
>>47974373
So nothing I said is wrong? You say they aren't -really- heavy, at least compared to a heavier sword. You agree with what I said about being a dueling sword.
>>47974459
Oh, I thought you were the same anon saying a rapier was a toy.
>>47973890
Compare it to swords actually used in combat: a typical rapier is about 50% lighter than a longsword, less than half the weight of a montante, and as long as can be conveniently drawn from a scabbard. The length is a fashion statement, like the girth of the Cinquedea (pic related), which was typically worn at the front of the waist, over the groin.
>>47968575
>>47969354
Rapiers were actually banned from Japan since too many samurais died in duals against portuguese fencers.
>>47974373
>I can land multiple thrusts to the torso, shoulder, or arm while I remain relatively safe.
Only because you duel with people that cannot into grappling.
>B-but I can stab you two dozen times before you can get close enough to grapple!
I know a few knife fighters I'd love to introduce you to. After a while you start to realize that each isn't really a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a thing. There's techniques you use against people with significantly longer reach, and techniques you use against those techniques. In the end, a difference in reach isn't so much a clear advantage as a raising of the stakes. It's possible (but not advisable) have a friendly sparring match with sharp swords if both of you know what you're doing and they're similar weapons, but if you try the same thing with longsword vs dagger, someone is going to die.
>>47975062
>realize that each isn't really
*Reach
>>47975018
>Please be true
>>47975159
I'm pretty sure they banned all European swords.
>>47975062
>Only because you duel with people that cannot into grappling.
You'd have to be a retard to grapple in a rapier duel. Not only would you be completely run through trying to bridge the gap, you'd just get shanked by the parrying dagger repeatedly.
>I know a few knife fighters I'd love to introduce you to. After a while you start to realize that each isn't really a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a thing. There's techniques you use against people with significantly longer reach, and techniques you use against those techniques. In the end, a difference in reach isn't so much a clear advantage as a raising of the stakes. It's possible (but not advisable) have a friendly sparring match with sharp swords if both of you know what you're doing and they're similar weapons, but if you try the same thing with longsword vs dagger, someone is going to die.
And this is where I don't pay attention to you anymore, because reach is EVERYTHING when fighting. A knife will almost always lose against a longish sword unless there is a major disparity in skill of the fighters. Likewise a spear or polearm is superior to a sword.
>>47975159
Look at page 9 (13 in the document) :
http://www.naippe.fm.usp.br/arquivos/hobby/Sawasu_Part_3.pdf
>>47975232
>You'd have to be a retard to grapple in a rapier duel. Not only would you be completely run through trying to bridge the gap, you'd just get shanked by the parrying dagger repeatedly.
You've never been tackled, it would of course take practice, arguably less than it would to defend yourself against it with a rapier and parrying dagger.
>Knife fighting
If you see somebody 'fighting' with a knife and leads with a knife they know nothing about knife fighting besides which end to stick in people. Only knife you need is the old Fairbairn–Sykes for guttin' bastards.
>>47974933
The rapiers in the Wallace collection average out around 1.225kg I think it was (skipping 19th century ones, the one with a built in pistol, etc, sample otherwise being all rapier son their homepage when I sat down to look it up). The heaviest one they have is just over four pounds. There are light rapiers, but the standard rapier is most definitely not a light sword. The length likewise varies considerably, while they are seldom short, the extremely long ones that pop up from time to time (and English authorities sought to outlaw) appear to be an uncommon outlier.
Maybe not very surprisingly, from this follows that longswords will not average out at anywhere enar twice the weight of a normal rapier.
http://hroarr.com/longswords-and-their-data/
As for the rapier in battle, we know it was carried to battle by people who both could get whatever they wanted, and who had good reason to believe that they may have to rely on their swords to keep them alive. We see them given to the basic grunt in period artwork (including some rather "war documentary"-like illustrations), we see them in portraits at the hips of armorued people who very much want to appear as warriors, we see military museums associate them with the field of battle.
The rapier traces its roots to the espada ropera, but it develope from that, ie it changed into something no longer quite the same.
>>47970972
>using guns as samurai
DISHONORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRtfw you will never have a Japanese-inspired setting where firearms are a thing
>>47975338
so, what you're saying is you'd have to be fighting a literal retard who knew nothing about how to get through a fencer's guard and the fencer would have to be bad enough to roll 1s on all reactions?
>tackling
Literally fucking retarded. You're going to tackle a distance of 4-6 feet fast enough for me to not be able to step away? Doubtful.
But do tell me more about how anime and your headcanon for your DnD characters translates to real life.
>>47975292
>>Once armed with swords of this style,
the samurai turned the tables even on the Portuguese in the second encounter. This
is when the ban was finally instituted. The whole trading relationship was
threatened.
So it was when the Portugese were being killed that the ban was enacted, to make up for them not being smart enough not to start fights they wouldn't survive, which would be bad for trade.
>>47975435
>>tfw you will never have a Japanese-inspired setting where firearms are a thing
Yeah. It's definitely one of the more undervalued parts of that historical period. Since firearms and medieval warriors are such an interesting combination for a setting.
I'd say that proper Pike formations form this period also tend to get shafted, due to not being as sexy as random swordsmen.
I think they're cool but would never use one in game for fear of being labeled a turbo weeb.
>>47955446
Well of course they were useful, who wants to whip out a spear to kill a peasant that made eye contact with you, or didn't depending on what mood you're in. But in an actual battle good luck actually using that sword before a peasant with double the reach pokes you in the neck. Or one of the other 500 peasants making a spear wall.
>>47975338
This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. Not only have I been tackled, but if I had a rapier and dagger, tackling me would only get you double-impaled, with the rapier going clean through your chest cavity, at least one organ, and probably rupturing the other side.
And no, you're hopelessly ignorant if you think the Fairbairn Sykes dagger is the only one that exists, and the only style of dagger fighting that exists. A reverse held dagger isn't used to fight a sword. It's used to sneak up and murder somebody.
>>47976743
>Would require training and practice. Get past the point of a rapier and you are effectively disarmed.
>>47977036
You do know rapiers are paired with a knife right? You do know that knife can stab even when you are past the point of the rapier right?
>>47977036
And like I said, you don't know shit. Because if you manage to get past the point of the rapier, you immediately have to deal with a parrying dagger going straight into your abdomen. This is a no-win scenario. Trying to knock either weapon out of your path leads to the other one immediately striking your exposed body. Unless you have a shield there's no way to get around it unless you are also using a rapier + dagger, wearing armor, or have a long weapon like a spear.
>>47972612
Whatever you're saying doesn't have shit to do with anything said in the two previous posts.
The Katana is first mentioned during the 1100s and was well-established by the time gunpowder and guns were invented on the continent - which was around 1300. That's like two hundred years before they made their way to Japan via Portugese traders. That happened 1543.
>>47970142
Explain the dozens of historical swords that emphasized cutting over thrusting then.
>>47974373
>In a fight with a longsword, katana, or any two handed blade that isn't a god damned montante I can land multiple thrusts to the torso, shoulder, or arm while I remain relatively safe
You're underestimating how fast you could wield a two-handed blade.
>rapierfag
No wonder.
>>47978779
Because they focus on weight of blows. Thrusting is great against fleshy unarmored targets, but even if you have something so simple as a really tough leather jerkin, a rapier is rendered useless. Cutting meanwhile has the force to sunder some armor, or just deliver concussive force clean through it. See blades of the 13th century, which were capable of shattering bones through maille -AND- gambeson. Rapiers came to be basically when the age of armor ended. They existed in a world where only the wealthiest could afford the plate armor able to stand up to weapons of the current battlefield, and most soldiers opted to ditch their armor to lose weight (especially given how fucking heavy early firearms were).
nip blades
>thick af aka heavy af
>not even remotely balanced
>shit at thrusting & piercing armor, even chainmail
>slow, needs to be swung like a fucking club
>no change over the centuries until euro sabers introduced
>can't parry; just gotta evade
everywhere else on earth swords
>got progressively lighter
>better at thrusting
>better balance - slash is a whipping motion rather than a hack
>can be used as a mace in half-swording
>can actually pierce armor - especially eye holes and segments
>can parry and be used with other weapons & shields
I know which one I'd pick in a fight
>>47972567
>Japanese iron is shit meme
It wasn't worse by the time it got to the end of the production line, it just took a lot more effort to get there
>>47966030
Katana means "sword" in japanese.
I do believe what we're all discussing would be called an uchigatana or possibly a tachi. Much like Westerners have longswords, arming swords and shortswords
>>47981422
The one available to you at the time and place and era you found yourself in?
Good choice anon; going with "whatever my culture has access too" always is a smart choice, and most fools think history was like a D&D book where they selected a bunch of ahistorical equipment with stats on display.
It's nice to see some intelligence on /tg/.
>>47978649
Katana means "sword" in Japanese.
This is what the average Japanese sword looked like in the 12th century and onward for quite some time; basically the exact same thing as a scimitar but without a crossguard.
>>47981870
The argument is that Japan never evolved as a swordmaking culture, they shackled the whole process from the ore smelting to the actual blademaking with ritual that it begame impossible for them to get progressively anything.
The japanese sword is terrible as far as swords go, regardless of their sparse material there were and are plenty of ways they could of improved the design, adapted and made it more useful as a weapon but never did because of the enshrined status of their sword.
>>47978939
>You're underestimating how fast you could wield a two-handed blade.
So much this; balance makes a far bigger difference than size for handling and speed. I've handled montantes that are borderline viable for singlehand use.
/hema practitioner.
>>47982082
Oh wait, we ARE doing the D&D thing?
Okay. I choose this, with 4 extra magazines.
>>47968056
We're done here.
>>47966714
Nigga whut, the technique is totally different. Sabers are what you use for hacking and slashing on horseback, and aren't meant to have good balance to begin with. Katanas are used for cutting people down on foot. You draw inward with them as you slice and you can cut pretty efficiently that way.
>>47955362
I play with a guy who ONLY uses katanas and pistols, regardless of whether it's a futuristic space opera game, modern-day espionage and intrigue, or medieval fantasy. Even when guns and katanas should not exist, he whines and bitches until the GM caves and gives them to him. Naturally, I hate katanas for that very reason, because of people like him that shoehorn them into every single campaign regardless of how much or little sense they might make.
I also feel like there's really no reason not to just pick a broadsword, if you need a bladed weapon. It's a damn good sword, and odds are you're going to find way more of them in treasure if you're playing a western fantasy game. At this point I'm just rolling my eyes every time the party finds a magic weapon at the bottom of a medieval knight's crypt and it's another fucking katana... and there's a dozen pistol rounds lying next to it as well.
>>47982216
Depends on the katana.
You DO know there was more then one kind, right?
>>47982241
There was more than one type of Japanese sword.
Katanas are a specific type of Japanese sword.
>>47971680
...what.
>>47982270
Indeed, but even real life the word doesn't mean what you think it does.
It just means "sword".
It's like how arming swords and long swords and broad swords and shit like that in actual history were generally just called "swords" in the time periods they were actually used, except in late medieval combat manuals where they used general descriptors such as "a longer sword" or "a short chopping sword" or "a shorter sword."
Since the uchigatana was the ONLY sword of note in Japan for around two centuries after they stopped needing them for wars because there weren't any the word eventually just ended up meaning "sword" after they shortened it.
And even then it's STILL not how they'd describe it sometimes, instead using the word "nihonto" when put into verbal context with other weapons.
There's a few "katana" made by guys like the Dotanuki school types that are very clearly shorter weapons then what pretty much every armchair historian pretend weapons geek would dub a "katana", and they are STILL labeled that in the museum they are in because it's still an accurate name.
Japanese is a confusing language, and assuming that it's never changed at all is a pretty ridiculous assumption.
Weeb here. I don't fetishize katanas; I fetishize kenjutsu.
Katana are nobre weapon. Technique is much important. Novice draw katana, not amount much. Master draw katana, heaven and earth trembre. Katana not empowers warrior. Katana draws power from warrior.
>>47982125
>Not using your great grandfathers civil war confederate revolver.
>>47982549
That's kind of literally the Hagakure isn't it?
>>47982622
I'm not in a Confederate State, so no.
And whilst I AM fond of old school revolvers, we're going for effectiveness and efficiency regardless of historical era according to that anon.
So I picked something compact that holds lots of bullets with ammunition that's easy to carry lots of and can spit them out fairly fast.
I wonder how effective JHP rounds are against metal armor? I assume they'd go through it course, but do you suppose they'd punch right through or mushroom upon impact and go through anyway?
>>47981870
it's weird; I can't stand violence, but I love arms and armor.
what's funny is that the simple acts of heat treatment, adding alloy elements, and carborization can drastically increase the hardness (and UTS) of the metal. history has shown that the societies with the hardest metals always beat the others, so if they only knew about those hardening techniques... =)
>>47982549
handeling a zweihander or a rapier isn't exactly foolproof.
>>47982803
So not him but I'll add a bit
I love the shit out of Iaido. I realize its the weebyest part of this weeb weapon but I fucking love it. Its the one part I'm totally cool with being fantastical too. Sonic booms? Vacuums? Faster than light? I don't care I find that stupid shit fun.
>>47982749
Well, history also shows that numerical superiority and good tactics and strategy also trumps equipment, but you are correct that they tend to go hand in hand.
The fact that when one guy discovered superior methods of making armor only one guy knew it and used it and everyone else had to figure that shit out for themselves because it's not like the Internet or even books existed on the subject meant that armor and weaponry could be pretty crazy in variety and quality depending on who you went to and how much money you had.
I mean right now simply because of our mastery of chemistry and bonding techniques we could make weapons and armor of ridiculously superior quality compared to what people had back in the day and pretty much ANYONE who wanted to learn that skill could do it the same way with near the same level of quality just because the information, while certainly specialized, isn't even remotely hard to get or learn about if you do your research and study.
Not like when you learned smithing because your dad or a friend of your dad you were apprenticed too did that shit.
>>47967779
Khopesh is an axe that self-identifies as a sword.
You're into trans-swords bro.
>>47982990
It looks and cuts enough like a sword, so I'll count it as a sword.
To take the bait however, if we're gonna cherry-pick bullshit, then can I say a greatsword/zweihander/claymore is just a spear with a stupidly long point and everyone's using it completely wrong? They're both chunks of metal that are at least partly sharpened and attached to a handle after all. I feel like you're being the guy that looks at a mule and says "well it has four legs, hooves, and is taller than a donkey, it's gotta be a horse" instead of knowing that there are some middle grounds in real life.In other news, something along the lines of a "swaxe" sounds pretty neat impho. Don't gotta be gettin' up in some guy's taste in blades like some kinda faggot because he likes them both curvy and practical.
>>47955446
The thing was as a non-battlefield weapon they were amazing, in urban combat as a self defence weapon. They also would have seen a lot of use on the battlefield however after the initial charge.
Once the melee gets underway your sword becomes a hell of a lot more useful than a spear both defensively and offensively depending on the distance you're fighting at.
>>47955456
I too am a HEMAfag, there is a dude at my club that has been training in Kendo and some other japanese sword styles for years. He's so much fun to fight because it's so different from European styles.
>>47968776
>>47970142
>>47981166
You are very wrong Anon,
the most common fatal injuries from a sword were to the head, neck and lower legs.
There are a lot of very important things in the head, neck and legs that can be cut into very easily.
But on top of that the most common cause of death in a sword fight was exsanguination, or air embolism. This is because a blow to the neck or leg can open major arteries causing exsanguination, and a strike that opens a vein can let air into the bloodstream.
A strike to the head is probably more likely to cause concussion or brain damage, but you'd still bleed a shit ton.
Thrusting wounds are often non-fatal unless they strike a vital organ, of to which are mostly contained in the torso, however most guards protect the torso quite well, with the exception of Alba and Alba based guards.
>>47955362
As a swordfag, I find them a little silly in reality.
In fiction, I don't mind katanas, even the weeb FORDED WAN MIRRION TIME katanas.
>>47957511
That is very wrong buddy, Samurai fought on many different battlefields and in many different capacities. Think of the Katana like an M4 carbine, very useful at shorter ranges and very versatile, but not specialized at all.
>>47957653
Burden of proof buddy, you are the one that needs to provide citations.
>>47955362
I like them for some characters, and dislike them for others.
>>47984447
On a battlefield spear and shield is the most defensive thing you can get pleb
>>47975232
>reach is EVERYTHING when fighting
No, distance is everything, you have to fight at the distance, or krieg that suits you best. That is one of the cruciform swords greatest strengths.
You can use it as a short polearm by stabbing someone with the tip.
You can cut someone with the blade once they get too close for you to use the tip.
You can hammer at someone with the quillons once they get too close to use the blade.
You can smash their head in with the pommel once they get too close for the quillons.
If they get any closer than that they are inside you and you've got bigger problems.
>>47966030
?
I mean, why? He just said he liked a particular sword. All this reflects on him is that he knows swords well. Is that really off limits?
>>47955362
They are only as weeb as the person holding them. Personally I like crazy big ass wacky weapons like Monster Hunster, so I hardly think a curved sword is anything to be worried by.
>>47984731
>>Depending on the distance you're fighting at
A spear loses a lot of its defensive utility in a crowded melee. When the guy is literally right on top of you the sword becomes the more practical weapon.
>>47984731
not when you spear breaks and your shield is a wreck. Also not if you are in the middle of a melee and the enemy could be behind you or beside you.
>>47984772
>>47975232
No, wrong. Unless you mean 1 vs 1.
In any sort of pitched battle, stamina and endurance are far more important.
>>47984731
Nah, once a guy gets between your spear point and you you've only got a shield, and defending will not win you a fight if you can't capitalise on it and strike back eventually.
>>47984832
We are discussing the length of weapons and the effect that will have on a fight, so what you've said isn't really relevant to the discussion that we're having.
>>47955362
Going full 'FOLDED ONE MIRRION TIMESU' is annoying, but I'm fine with some restrained romanticizing of the weapon. As long as it's setting appropriate it's cool.
>>47984877
Well played, anon.
>>47981422
>not even remotely balanced
That's wrong, though. There's a reason katanas are stubby with long goofy hilts. They need to get the balance to the right spot without a pommel.
>shit at thrusting & piercing armor, even chainmail
It's still not particularly difficult. If I was wearing period Japanese armor, I wouldn't trust it enough to allow myself to be stabbed.
>slow, needs to be swung like a fucking club
They're a bit lighter compared to a European sword of similar length because of the long hilt versus a pommel. The closer the mass is to the center, the heavier it needs to be to change the balance point.
>can't parry; just gotta evade
That's just blatantly wrong. I assume you're talking about the guard, which is certainly underdeveloped, but it's not actually a huge deal because the guard rarely comes into play. You see people using the crossguard to block in movies and sparring because they're using simulated weapons and the blades just glide across each other. Actual sharp swords bite into each other when the blades come together. You actually parry by striking at your opponent in response to their attack.
I'm not even a katana fanboy, but your post is just blatant bullshit. Please don't just spew memes you picked up on an Arabian toesucking forum without doing even the most basic fact checking first.
I hate seeing people use two weapons at once.
Especially in a show where everyone winds up using two weapons at once.
I also hate reverse grips.
One of my biggest gripes about the Clone Wars cartoons was how frequently everyone would bust out two lightsabers at once, even characters who normally never did that.
>>47984982
This is someone who knows their stuff.
And you can parry with a katana, you do so by turning the blade sideways when they meet. It takes lot of training.
>>47985129
>I hate seeing people use two weapons at once.
To be fair, this has precedent with certain fighting techniques.
That said, the only thing I can think of are some specific Asian martial arts and Rapier/parrying dagger combinations. Nothing like two battle axes or whatever.
>>47985129
>tfw my fetish is sword and dagger combos of all kinds
>most recent and fun was a shortsword and a naval dirk which was barely smaller than shortsword
>got bracers of speed, put them on anklets (just like drizzdudden!) and spent the rest of the campaign whirlwinding people to death
Am I a bad person?
>>47985257
Sword and dagger is tolerable
Does anyone actually know the reason for the lack of shield use in Japan. Was it just a cultural thing, because they must have been exposed to the concept from the mainland.
>>47986708
My understanding is that way way back they used them, but then their military shifted to be mostly polearms and archers so shields weren't really useful for either type of troops, and by the time swords came back in shields were basically nonexistant so they didn't use shields and they used a mix of one and 2 hands with their swords anyways. They did however use big pavis shields set up on stands to protect their troops from archery fire if you want to count that.
>>47968720
Nice bullshit, anon. The Japanese don't have much fondness for guns nowadays because of how strictly regulated their use is, but they still fucking love airsoft and back in the Sengoku era they went all-out with firearm production and modified guns according to their tastes.
Considering how the Japanese were fucking obsessed with their cultural values and beliefs, they wouldn't have made the warships with the biggest fucking guns in history (Yamato and Musashi) if firearms were despised on a cultural level.
>>47986879
Ok cool, still with the amount of archers they fielded you would think some clever general would order his men to carry some wood over their heads as they marched in. I know their pole-arm fighting style didn't really support shields but they could have been slung on the back. It seems better than just running across a field under archer fire.
>>47984387
Well, if you want a swaxe the khopesh is your blade, it IS technically a sword, but it's used like an axe(only that curved bit near the end was typically sharpened) it is a freaky hybrid sword/axe.
