Why did yugioh die? Magic has been around for almost 20 years or so and is just as popular as ever. Yet yugioh, literally the best selling card game of all time, died after barely 10 years of serious players. I still see it at conventions but NO ONE i know plays anymore.
>>47951327
What the fuck is yugioh?
>>47951327
It's not dead, but reasons for declining popularity is rarity gouging by the printers in non-JP markets by making important competitive cards that were common in JP the rarest cards in other countries, to the tune of $30, $50, $65, or even $100 each.
Also constantly invalidating old decks after very short periods and constant power creep, as well as sweeping mechanic changes such as synchros being made irrelevant by xyz, and now pendulums.
In short, greedy Asian parent company, much like how F2P games have.
Because the additions to the game were so incredibly stupid while Magic remained somewhat decent.
>>47951327
Konami killed it with numerous, stupid policies like the entire system for judging disputes at competetive events
>>47951622
>while Magic remained somewhat decent.
Only in comparison to YGO. The M:tG changes have been pretty fucking retarded themselves.
>>47951643
What's the system? I take it that it isn't a knife fight
>>47951327
Two major reasons. The first is that konami sees the game solely as a means to make money. Therefore they will take actions that make them the most money, even if they're damaging to the quality of the game (rarity jumps, deliberate short-printing key cards, sweeping banlists that invalidate whatever deck won recently, etc)
* It's worth noting that by KoJ's rules, whatever deck wins the YGO world championship MUST have at least one key card banned at the next list.
The other major reason is that Organized Play is anything but. Magic has the DCI, a well-documented and concrete set of Comprehensive Rules, a standardized Tournament Floor Rules and Penalty Guide documents, and a lot of transparency. In YGO all of those judging documents are under lock and key, and require signing an NDA to get access to them. There's also no formalized system of keywords or rulings, meaning it's very possible that different judges will make different calls on the same card interaction - and they'll both be right because what they say goes. Add to that an almost expectation of theft among players, blatant market manipulation (MTG has it too but never to this degree) and general volatility in the secondary market make it really easy to pay $1000 for the only good deck in the format, and two weeks later see it be worth $50 and unplayable garbage.
tl;dr YGO is a money-printing machine disguised as a TCG, in a world where TCGs are losing market share.
>>47951740
Not game breakingly so
>>47951938
You must be a modern babby neowalker.
>>47952000
Whatever you say sport
>>47952000
Out of curiosity what changes you don't like, anon?
>>47952042
I feel a wall-of-text incoming, everybody get your smug anime faces ready.
>>47952014
>doesn't even try to deny it
You shouldn't talk about something if you haven't even experienced 10% of it.
>>47952105
Sure thing champ
Insane power creep with little regard for balance that constantly invalidates anything existing before it?
>>47951756
If you and an opponent disagree on a rules interaction, you call a judge and you turn out to be wrong, you instantly lose tge game.
If you touch your opponent's cards, you are instantly disqualified.
If you watch a game and see a player cheat or STEAL their opponent's cards, you're not allowed to interfer. Nobody is except the players.
When new cards are released, the first judge to judge an interaction sets binding precedent, which is different for japan and the rest of the world. It has happened before that the rules actually work differently depending on where you are, as a japanese judge ruled differently on a new card than an european/american judge.
>>47952471
>everything about all of that shit
What the actual fuck.
>>47952471
If I throw my cards at an opponent, will he get disqualified?
>>47952471
>If you and an opponent disagree on a rules interaction, you call a judge and you turn out to be wrong, you instantly lose tge game.
>If you touch your opponent's cards, you are instantly disqualified.
False. You only get a Game Loss if the interaction is done to the point where the gamestate is irreversable. Most of the time you just get a warning for fucking up and you're urged not to do it again.
And you're supposed to ask permission before touching other people's cards, that's just common courtesy.
>>47952471
>If you and an opponent disagree on a rules interaction, you call a judge and you turn out to be wrong, you instantly lose tge game.
>If you touch your opponent's cards, you are instantly disqualified.
>If you watch a game and see a player cheat or STEAL their opponent's cards
These are probably related. Yugioh has a problem with horrible players.
Just as XYZ is the end of the alphabet, it spelled the end for Yugioh, too.
>>47951740
I actually like some of the changes, like no mana burn, etb instead of citp, "dies" and damage no longer going to the stack.
Then again I dislike the new legends rule and planeswalkers as a whole...
>>47951342
There is no way I'm this old
>>47952728
>opponent plays card in MTG
>no idea WTF it does, spin it around so I can see it
>game resumes
>do so in YGO
>DONT TOUCH MY CARDS JUDGE JUDGE
>>47951327
The TV show stopped showing.
No big money prizes at their official tournaments
>>47951327
Me and like 6 friends play it. What's wrong?
>>47952617
Asking the important Yugioh tech
I never really played super competitively and only for brief periods on and off for the past 15 years or so, but around 2013 I tried yu-gi-oh! online. Outside of casual play it was atrocious due to every faggot running some ridiculous 10 minute turn deck with shitloads of bookkeeping so that you barely know what's going on, the mechanics were way too fucking complex and annoying, allowing for absurd combos that pretty much decide the game once activated so you might as well just concede instead of waiting a half hour to lose. MTG has this problem but to a much lesser degree and there are plenty of other ways to win.
>>47951934
It'll still mean Konami will control the japan's entertainment market in 10 years time, and the whole TG and Video Games markets as a whole in 20, everything they did these last years were genius moves. I can't wait when they'll eat Nintendo alive!
>>47954058
>every faggot running some ridiculous 10 minute turn deck with shitloads of bookkeeping so that you barely know what's going on, the mechanics were way too fucking complex and annoying, allowing for absurd combos that pretty much decide the game once activated so you might as well just concede instead of waiting a half hour to lose.
Yeah, that can be an issue, although I find that to be one of the more charming points of the game. Not watching my opponent do it of course, but seeing the board state and my cards and trying to figure out how I can use my resources to get what I need to possibly win while playing around their backrow and making sure I still have options left for the next turn should things go worse than expected.
It also helps that once you know what your play strings are like the turn time is cut down significantly. Even when I come across really fucking complicated board states my actual plays don't take that long and most of the turn is spent thinking over card interactions.
It's a very different style to MtG, and definitely something that can turn people off, but if you can enjoy it it makes its own fun experience.
>>47953147
You ask first bro? They have to let you see the card if you request permission, he was likely worried you were going to steal his shit
>>47954081
>Konami
>Reduced to literally a pachinko machine babby
>controlling the entertainment market ever
kek
>>47952471
To be fair everything in that post, other than the calling a judge part, sounds exactly like the kind of stupid shit you'd expect to see happen in the anime.
>>47951740
>The M:tG changes have been pretty fucking retarded themselves.
I thought MtG Planeswalkers were stupid.
Glad I fell out of MtG before they were introduced.
>>47956226
Only because in the anime, there are no judges
>>47954190
while that's courtesy, violating that courtesy does not result in a DQ in MTG.
If it actually does in Yug, that's a pretty massive problem.
>>47956300
>Planeswalkers are stupid
>I fell out of the game before Planeswalkers were introduced
Have you actually even used one?, Planeswalkers are some of the most
Interactive cards in the game.
>>47957062
The same is often said of Synchros and Xyz
>>47951327
People play it I'm east coast and we have our fair share of yugioh tourneys but yeah konami of America's autism and faggotry is ruining the game the literally separate it into three spheres EU, America, Japan and gross mismanagement
>>47951740
I don't think any change in Magic is comparable to how much Konami fucked up in changing the fundamentals/speed of Yugioh.
Like, at the end of the day, Magic is still more-or-less the same game it was 20 years ago. Yugioh is not recognizable at all (for the worse).
>>47952617
No, because he didn't touch your cards, your cards touched him.
You will however get a penalty for delay of game.
>>47953485
That's part of it, but the bigger thing is because the prizes aren't cash, it lets them have events in eastern european countries like Germany or Austria. MTG can't do any higher level events like GPs or Pro Tours in those countries because they run afoul of Gambling laws.
>>47951327
Yu gi oh outsells magic
>>47952471
There's no way any of this is true. It's just too autistic to even contemplate.
>>47958353
So, if you put a card on your opponent's seat when he's in the bathroom/before you start, or you push your opponent onto the table...
WHAT A GAME
>>47958802
Only in terms of sealed product. It's secondary market is non-existent. Go, try to sell one of your GP promo Golden Sarcophagus and see who wants to buy it.
>>47956644
YGO's had a problem with theft to the point where Konami is always really apprehensive about releasing cards that change control, because there have been incidents where players have "forgotten" to return cards that they didn't own.
Honestly, if you can't at least rush out a quick "can I look at this real quick?" while you reach for a card, you're probably not anybody worth playing, anyway. Rude people rarely are.
>>47958865
He's exaggerating. I'm a certified judge in both TCG and OCG rulings.
You do get penalized if you call for a judge on a ruling you're incorrect on, but that's only after a NUMBER of sequential similar incidents (it falls under "rule sharking"). It's also not a DQ, but a game loss, if I recall. Certainly no larger than a match loss.
If you touch your opponent's cards without asking, they CAN call a judge, but the worst you'll get is a warning unless your touching of the cards broke the gamestate (you messed with face-down cards on the opponent's board and could've seen them, for instance). If you break the gamestate it's usually a game loss, or a match loss for people with multiple offenses.
If you see somebody cheating or stealing, you're only allowed to inform a judge of the problem unless YOU are one of the involved players. It's sad for me to say this, but many judges won't do shit about it, or worse, may even be in on it (about 95% of high-level players are either privy to or take part in cheating, with and without judge assistance).
Sadly, the last bit about rulings precedent is 100% true. We've had a good half-dozen scuffles over the past 2-3 years because some retard in a major TCG event decided that Call of the Haunted and Deneb don't work the same as in Japan literally "because I said so". The cards we get in TCG are out in OCG for a good 3+ months before TCG even CONSIDERS printing them, so most of the important rulings are already figured out. This doesn't even remain consistent in all of TCG regions. The CotH/Deneb example applied exclusively to NA, meaning that European players had the original OCG rulings on the subject. Rulings are a fucking mess because too many big-shot judges want to be a speshul snowflaek.
>>47959160
Aren't you NDAd so you can't talk about anything like that?
>>47959160
well those exagerations mostly seem like it's withing the realm of normal behavior
everything from
>It's sad
describes a non-viable game. Like utterly, get out now, do not start, game deserves to die bad.
>>47959255
There's nothing in that post that isn't public-accessible knowledge. Most players could tell you about the Deneb/Call rulings fiasco, and all of the rulings/penalties information is available both on Konami's site and the wiki. So long as I'm not naming names, saying "judges may be in on cheating" isn't doing anything except making people keep a better eye on their shit.
Regarding theft, most judges won't do anything about it because realistically, they can't. You can say "X stole Y's cards" but unless they saw it, there's really not much they can do except ask politely for the cards back and DQ/ban them if they refuse.
>>47959294
KoA treats a lot of their judges like shit. They've openly stated in at least one blog post (on their blog that they use to try and sell cards to the public) that they avoid anything that forces judges to actually do their jobs and pay attention to other players. The fact that they're just volunteers doesn't help at all.
KoA needs to whip the judge program into shape. I feel that would be a solid step in the right direction to fixing competitive play.
That said, casual play is fantastic and the game is still fun. You just have to avoid tryhards like the plague.
>>47959505
>You just have to avoid tryhards like the plague.
This. I played competitively for a bit and was a mega-autist rules lawyer and people still lost their shit when things didn't work they way they thought. I remember when dark world was released and everyone was playing cards with discard as a cost, then dumping Silvaa and whatnot into the yard, only for me to be like "nope".
>>47959160
>some retard in a major TCG event decided that Call of the Haunted and Deneb don't work the same as in Japan literally "because I said so".
God fucking damn, I forgot about that. That was one of the dumbest things I have ever seen.
>>47959505
>>47959505
I'll accept that casual play could still be fun, but even in casual play I feel having good rules adjudicating structure to go back on, so that you don't have to house rule, is a good thing.
That, and the sort of corporate structure that could lead to a competitive play environment like that makes me real fucking suspicious of the games long term health.
>>47959665
The wiki has both TCG and OCG rulings regarding cards, and if you're playing with English cards in Burgerland, OCG's probably put out a ruling on all of the important interactions (and some unimportant ones that players request). Even judges refer to the wiki in low-level tournaments, especially locals.
If checking a wiki every time a problem comes up isn't your cup of tea, you could always learn the finer rules yourself and figure out the rest. Because of the focus on specific and consistent wording, you can usually get an idea of how a ruling is going to go based on other rulings with similar cards.
>>47959754
except that wiki will have contradictions between the rules sets, if I understand you correctly. And I would have very good reason to believe that those ruling are not well made.
It's not having an online ruling database, it's having one I could trust.
which one is better?
Yugioh, vanguard or force of will ?
>>47951327
Because magic took steps to make the game batter, YGO did not. The rules are not as retarded, there is a mana system that prevents you from drooping a one-turn win half the time (it still happens, it's just not easy) the ban list has some seans in it, they have key words, there are formats that are for both seasoned players and new guys, you can still play older edition decks agients new edition decks. Overall MTG was made to be a good card game, YGO was made to make money and they made up shit as they went along
>>47960000
They keyword complaint is always fucking stupid. Yugioh's text is designed with a lot of intricacies, such that it cannot be simplified down easily from where it is now.
>>47960000
>>47960000
MTG has problems, quite few because it was basically creating a new category of game.
Most other games that straight aped it died, and those that are surviving have fundamentally changed certain aspects. Randomized packs, dedicated card type for resource generation, those things are falling out of style.
MTG survived by trying to be the best it can be at what it is. This includes a lot of market research and refinement. Above all, responsiviness to the player base.
Critics will say that WotC doesn't listen to anyone. That's wrong. They listen plenty, the people who are upset were simply seen as not contributing as much to the customer base, or being incompatable with the offers to grow an maintain the customer base.
MTG does operate to make money, and they do make money. But they are not in for the quick cash grab. They're in for keeping people buying 5+ years from now. Because that's how far ahead they have parts of their design and development team working.
>>47959967
Force of Will is my current vote, but they're still pretty young comparatively so it's hard to say. FoW combines a lot of the best aspects of numerous games to great effect, although it's totally a dead thing in some areas where others see it every bit as popular as FNM, so YMMV.
Vanguard I know nothing about, but supposedly it's not quite as strong a game as the other two and the rarity system means you need to be ready to buy a box, boosters ain't shit
YGO is YGO, it's insane on all levels and it catches a lot of shit because it's insane on all levels, even though you only experience so much insanity at one time. It might just be a thing in the deep south but avoid the YGO playerbases like the plague- in all three stores in three states I've seen, they were all thieves, angsty teenagers and wannabe-teenagers, and shitlords, in some combination. I'm not saying all YGO players are like this by any means, but most of the people who came in for YGO and only YGO blended together into an intolerable mass.
>>47951327
just because you don't know anyone that plays doesn't mean that the game has died
>>47951934
>The first is that konami sees the game solely as a means to make money
and you are naive enough to think that Wizards doesn't see magic the same way?
>>47959160
you are a good judge anon
>>47960000
>YGO was made to make money and they made up shit as they went along
I think the big problem with yugioh is that the base rules are utter nonsense to start with. They have types, like mtg's colours, except they're pretty much irrelevant. They have levels, but there was no real purpose to them other than tribute costs (which could have been much easier to set with a 0, 1, or 2 star system). The 5 monster and trap zones seem largely pointless. The formatting, as a giant block of tiny text with no keywords or (for quite a while, at least) no real standardized wording at all, was and still is a mess (FoW, Wixoss, even Vanguard all look much better, and present their information in a much more streamlined way). I could go on, but the game is a clusterfuck of design made to 'look like a tcg' rather than for actual gameplay reasons.
The most interesting thing in yugioh is seeing how they manage to actually make the game function in spite of this retarded design. Synchros were an absolutely brilliant idea that made levels actually relevant past the 0 or 1 tribute function (2 tribute normal summons were never practical). Archetype based design gets around how otherwise the pull would be to a perfect list of 40 staples that is literally the only thing worth playing because there's otherwise no real distinction of archetypes (such as there is with the mtg colour wheel). It's still a mess of a game, but it's somewhat interesting to check out maybe once a year, just to see what they've done to expand their design space.
Sadly, Pendulum feels pretty uninspired (on top of loading even more text on the cards), so I think they may be running out of unique design space.
>>47959967
Picked up some Vanguard cards recently. Looks slightly interesting, although after Weiss, I'm hesitant to give any bushiroad game a second look. I'd be interested in hearing some anon's opinions, though.
>>47960277
>MTG has problems, quite few because it was basically creating a new category of game.
After playing some very recent tcgs, Wixoss especially, has me questioning a lot of the basic tenants that mtg works under, and way too many aspiring tcgs just accept as gospel. Drawing one card per turn, a specific resource card type, even a lot of the formatting (wixoss clearly identifies between ETB, activated, and constant abilities directly on the card), all of this is just blindly grandfathered in on too many tcgs.Also, mtg foils look like dogshit
>>47960578
OK weebshit.
>>47960664
I don't deny it. But the templating is still top notch.
>>47960453
>using the word shitlord
>>47960461
even early on, attributes and monster types played some role. Stuff like Allure of Darkness was an old card and related directly to attributes
Levels youre right about, only thing they ever were used for was Rituals which were irrelevant for a long time
>>47959023
Who needs secondary market like mtg? Is just kikery and will kill the game. I like my staples at 5 or less bucks. Is a game, not a product for kikes like you
>>47960578
Richard Garfield, who made MTG, broke those conventions with the next CCG he made.
VTeS: Under normal circumstances you draw a card as soon as you play one. Unless something on a card mentions it, you always have max hand size.
It has is designed to be played with multiple players, with where you are seated changing how you interact with different players. No dedicated resource card, and two different decks.
Then he made Netrunner. Which not only didn't have dedicated resource cards and violated the one card per turn rule, it was an asymmetrical game. One player was the runner the other the Corp.
That was just the same guy.
Warlord used card position to represent it's resource. Every one drew up to 5 cards at the start of each turn, and actions went back and forth.
I could go on.
>>47960882
>Garfield made Netrunner
My mind is blown.
>>47960853
>>>/pol/
Go back to your containment board.
>>47960921
>>>/co/
you first
>>47960578
OK. Now, make an actual argument for why adhering to these things is not needed, and people might actually listen to you.
As for drawing a card every turn, the only game I know that doesn't do this (and only half the time) is Netrunner. And then it's due to a combination of the low hand sizes and the click mechanic.
>>47960948
>>47960882
True, which is why it's still so frustrating to see things like FoW, and even things like Hearthstone and yugioh, continue to ape mtg, despite mtg being basically the experimental prototype. It got a lot of things right, but there is so much more out there that can be done with the tcg format, and there's a lot of room to improve, not just in small tweaks, but to the core of the rules themselves.
Another important thing to remember is that Yu-Gi-Oh started off as a nonsensical one shot game in the Manga(as all the games shown basically were). And since it was so popular it expanded.
So initially the card game tried to copy the format as close as possible so that YGO fans could REALLY PLAY DUAL MANSTERS.
And sadly many of the conventions of the game were grandfathered in despite largely being arbitrary.
>>47960974
warlord. Everyone draws up to 5 cards at the start of the turn.
There isn't a resource mechanic in the game other than the cards and their position. Having 5 cards is a large part of your action limit.
VtES: you draw cards as soon as they are played. Like warlords the limit was your characters actions.
Characters in turn were drawn from a seperate deck, drawing new ones required the use of transfers, which was also your resource for playing creatures, but also used the equivalent of your life pts as a resource.
Drawing one or a set number of cards per turn dictates a pace of the game, and interacts with your other limiting resources. It's a fine mechanic, the problem is that it's assumed, rather than justified in many games.
>>47961018
You're asking businessmen to innovate. Good luck. However, the Elder Scrolls card game looks new and interesting.
>>47959546
To be fair, the Dark World thing was a very easy mistake to make way back when they were first released. I'm pretty sure they were some of the first cards where that distinction actually mattered.
>>47959160
Explain the Call of the Haunted thing?
>>47953452
This. Competitive play was never a major part of Yu-Gi-Oh's popularity, and once the kiddies moved on, that was it.
>>47958802
[citation needed]
>>47960578
None of the rules of mtg are there because they were brought down by the gods of card games, you stupid little fuck
The rules are necessary inasmuch as they exist relative to each other
The idea that a single rule in any given game could be "wrong" is retarded, the rules exist relative to each other, if a game has a problem, the problem is the sum of the rules
There's nothing wrong with games that have different rules than magic, and if you prefer one of those games, that's fine, but don't blame it on a single rule
>>47961104
Right, but the thing is, those games had some other mechanic to balance it out. The absence of such a mechanic IS the justification. Take out the limit and all hell breaks loose.
>>47960974
Arguements can get a little long, and longer posts are easier to ignore, but here goes:
1 card per turn: makes the game often stall out after the innitial exchange of spells, often leaving either one or both players with little to do but topdeck well before the game concludes. Multiple cards per turn gives more interaction and makes raw CA a less dominant factor.
Specific resource cards: They slow down the pace of the game but reducing the number of cards you draw. They're also just a very boring card type in general, they have very little interesting impact on the board, and are only missed when they're gone. Notice all the complaints about mana-screw or mana-flood (especially among new players, but even pros complain about this costing them games). They don't complain about getting 'creature screwed'; the lands that do nothing clogging their hand or don't appear are a much stronger target for negativity, because they do nothing in and of themselves. Many other games have created resource systems that still limit available options without creating the negative play experiences the existence of resource-specific cards do.
As for formatting, rather than a block of text, adding certain cues helps process what the card does faster, and makes for a more streamlined experience. Mtg does this to an extent with keywords and spacing, yugioh just throws all its text into a paragraph and hopes you get it eventually, but there are better examples. Although some games seem to take it too far, Vanguard looks really gaudy with all its special symbols and colorings everywhere in the text box.
>>47961313
>makes the game often stall out after the innitial exchange of spells, often leaving either one or both players with little to do but topdeck well before the game concludes.
Have you ever, in your life, played MTG?
>>47961313
>makes the game often stall out after the innitial exchange of spells, often leaving either one or both players with little to do but topdeck well before the game concludes
That sounds way more likely to happen in modern Yugioh than Magic, if it weren't for the fact that said initial exchange of cards is likely to end with someone either already dead, or at least far enough behind that they know they aren't going to be able to make a comeback.
>>47961272
>>47961297
You're slightly missing the point (and it's possible I just suck at communicating it). It's not that mtg is flawed, but that it's rules are not necessarily the greatest implementation possible in a tcg game. There's a lot of room for innovation that a lot of tcgs don't grab. I honestly think it's this problem, though >>47961120. It's more difficult to sell an innovative game than it is to sell 'weeb-mtg' or 'phone-mtg'.
>>47961329
Not him, but I just started and it usually begins with
>draw cards
>play lands
>end turn
>play lands
>end turn
Until one side has enough lands to summon a creature.
>>47961313
Yeah, I'm with >>47961329 your arguments don't really hold water when the game is actually played. Games made with these rules, if made right, will find ways to get around these weaknesses. I mean, here, let's just go through a few things you said.
>They slow down the pace of the game
Yes, because in games made with these systems, fast mana leads to ridiculous turn 0 wins.
>They're also just a very boring card type in general
According to you.
>they have very little interesting impact on the board
Landfall. That's just one example out of many.
>and are only missed when they're gone.
...Isn't that the only way to miss something, after it's gone? How do you miss something before you get it?
>>47961329
Yes. And there are a lot of stalls. The combat system leads to board stalls. Control as an archetype is based around creating stalls, except you stall slightly less than your opponent.
>>47961367
More so than mtg, that criticism especially is aimed at yugioh. The '1 summon per turn' and '1 card drawn per turn' rules both seem to exist not to dictate a smooth pace of gameplay, but 'just because'. It feels like yugioh was a 'product designed to look like a tcg', not as a 'game to be played as a tcg.'
>>47961382
>Until one side has enough lands to summon a creature.
You realise there's creatures and other spells costing only 1 or 2 mana, right? Real decks have a mana curve so they have a turn 1,2 etc. play.
>>47961382
>draw-go
It's like I'm really in the 90s!
>>47961382
That's because you just started. There are all sorts of magical christmas land hands. I was typing out some elaborate combo when I realized, you'll have no idea what I'm talking about.
Think about it this way, imagine pic related, with 12 additional +1/+1 counters, on turn 3. It's not even hard to do.
>>47961379
>the greatest implementation
>innovation
These two things are not equal. "Original" does not mean "good." I understand that you want games with different systems, but that won't affect the quality of the game at all. And really, the fact that there are certain mechanics that are used a lot make them a lot more attractive because their advantages and disadvantages are a lot more obvious, whereas if you try something new, you might fuck up and get something that doesn't work the way you wanted it to because you didn't think of all the possible interactions. I'm all for innovation, believe me, I really like how Netrunner does things, but I'm pretty content with Magic's way too. Though for me, I think it's the complexity that gets me. Pokemon, for example, is similar to Magic, but oh my god, it is so shallow.
>>47961382
In Magic, if you don't start casting stuff on turn 1, you fucked up.
>>47961427
>Games made with these rules, if made right,
Ding! And mtg, to its credit, has done a solidly good job with this. That's not to say that the base rules of a game can not be made to better create a more streamlined gameplay experience.
The less optimized the rules are, the more you need to lean on the design of the cards themselves to set the flow of gameplay, and the easier it is for mistakes in design to muck up the game's flow.
>>47961518
>The less optimized the rules are, the more you need to lean on the design of the cards themselves to set the flow of gameplay
Related to this, I actually think there would be some merit in playing an YGO cube if it's built well.
>>47961578
Heh, I'd like to see /tg/ design a better version of YGO. For one, I'd want those elemental types to matter. Are they just there to look nice? Though I don't play much YGO, so maybe I'm just ignorant. The star system I know is beyond fucked though.
>>47961297
every game has mechanics, and those will interact with the card drawing mechanic. Card draw is no more sacred, or given, than any other mechanic.
Assuming that '1 card per turn' will be the proper balance for your game is a mistake imho.
often it resulted in an mtg clone. because it's mechanics were taken as the given, and any attempt to make the game it's own didn't change that feel.
Now there are unique and good games that have set card drawing as a mechanic. But imho, the proper route is 'what do I want this game to do?', then down the line ask 'how do players get new cards to use?'. At this point it might be that drawing a card each turn is the right decision.
1 card per turn as the assumed base doesn't help game design.
>>47961621
They basically just do the same thing that monster types do, serve as a way for that card to interact with other cards.
Really, the only sort of thematic connections the attribute ever had to game mechanics were that direct damage effects were generally associated with Fire.
>>47961578
I seem to recall a yugioh set made especially for drafting. Could be a could starting point. Regardless, it sounds like it could be pretty fun. Problem for me would be I'd have no one to play it with, as yugioh is pretty much ignored and shunned among the tcg players in my town.
>>47961651
What? Out of all the near-infinite possibilities of rules and mechanics for potential card games, you think having that one rule is going to be some indicator of overall quality? That's absurd. The quality of a game does not rest solely in its mechanics. MTG could've easily turned to shit without changing its base rules. Power creep, disregard for the color pie, and lack of bannings to name a few.
What are some mechanics from non-MtG games that you like and would enjoy seeing more (regardless of if the game it originally comes from is shit)?
>>47961694
But they discontinued it because it was shitty and super luck based. You can get something like a Swords of Revealing Light, and a monster that can bounce it, and there, you win.
>>47961916
Sad to hear, it sounded like a fun concept.
I'm surprised this game even took off in the first place, looking at the early sets, the game was super rudimentary and 95% of the time, vanilla monsters butting heads until you instawin with a super huge monster if they don't have removal.
The only reason it wasn't dead on arrival and survived to become the game it is now, is because of advertising via the anime.
>>47961916
That's one of the things you can mitigate with a cube as opposed to a regular old draft. There's a lot more control over EXACTLY what cards are in the pool.
>>47961909
I really like the mechanics in Netrunner, especially turning the library, hand, and graveyard into targets.
>>47961166
>Explain the Call of the Haunted thing?
So, if your opponent activates a card effect targeting a face-down Call of the Haunted to destroy it, you can activate the Call as CL 2, targeting a Satellarknight Deneb in your graveyard.
The way this normally plays out is as follows:
>Mystical Space Typhoon is activated, targeting a face-down Call of the Haunted that was set on a previous turn.
>Call of the Haunted is activated (targeting a Satellarknight Deneb in the player's graveyard) in response.
>Resolving backwards, Call of the Haunted Special Summons Satellarknight Deneb from the grave.
>Mystical Space Typhoon destroys Call of the Haunted, which in turn destroys the Deneb it revived.
This is where things get hairy. According to the Non-NA ruling (the one used by OCG and TCG regions outside of NA), Deneb's effect now activates (allowing the player to search their deck for a "Satellarknight" monster and add it to their hand), despite the card no longer being on the field. This is legal and is held up by hundreds of card ruling precedent and by the wording logic of past cards.
KoA said that despite the fact that it fulfilled the conditions of its effect's activation (being Summoned), Deneb's effect does not activate, because "cards must remain where they activate to resolve properly", despite this being a mechanic already (and the card lacks that wording). Additionally, they only ruled this specifically regarding Deneb, despite the fact that literally the ENTIRE DECK functions on the same wording in their effect texts.
It created a huge issue where basically the judges were called retarded for enforcing something that literally only applies in one sub-region, among other similar issues.
>>47960458
Wizards sees magic as a game. They make decisions that make money, obviously, but they try to balance that with attempts to improve the game. Sometimes it doesn't work, but they're trying to make money by bettering the game.
Konami sees YGO as nothing but a money machine, and as such makes business decisions to the blatant detriment of the game if it makes them more money. That's the difference.
>>47961995
Doesn't change the fact that officially sanctioned drafts from Konami are a failure. Even with sets and booster packs specifically designed to be drafted with. The variance is simply too high and the tournament result could pretty much be decided based on player's draft pools.
Yugioh simply isn't draft friendly. The power difference between some cards is too huge, and nowadays, a lot of cards have really specific synergies and interactions with other cards and archtypes.
>>47960917
Do keep in mind that there is a VERY big difference between Garfield's original Netrunner, and the Android: Netrunner that FFG currently runs. Yes Garfield contributed a bit, but it's almost all been without him.
>>47962134
>because "cards must remain where they activate to resolve properly",
That sounds like it would completely break old staple flip effects like Man-Eater Bug, if they actually applied that ruling to other cards.
>>47962187
With Flip monsters it's a bit different, since Flip monsters resolve their effects and THEN are destroyed. With Man-Eater Bug, you attack it, it flips up, resolves its effect, then blows up.
It would fuck up a bunch of other shit, though, not to mention rendering cards with the text "this card must remain in X location to activate and resolve this effect".
>>47962220
>not to mention rendering cards with the text "this card must remain in X location to activate and resolve this effect".
*rendering such cards useless completely.
>>47962149
Another problem with this is that there's a rift between "Fun" and "Good", both by design and in the community. Fun decks are rarely the ones winning tournaments, and tournament-winning decks rarely are fun to play or play against. One or two cards dropped, and it's obvious when a deck is designed for fun casual play or for winning tournaments.
TCG takes this to an extreme, preventing the release of decks that can be both fun AND competitive until they can no longer be competitive. Ask any D/D/D player how they like not having a good 30% of their deck 2 years later.
>>47962220
>>47962310
Did this actually get fixed, or did they just essentially add "Deneb must remain in X location to activate and resolve this effect" as hidden errata?
>>47962379
I think all cards like deneb are ruled that way in the TCG now
I think its worth noting that there were inconsistencies with the previous ruling about how monsters do not need to remain in the right place to activate their effects. Looking at X-Saber Darksoul, he just needed to hit the graveyard that turn to get a search during end phase, but if he is banished from the graveyard at some point he cannot activate his effect during end phase. More current cards like Scarm specify that it must be in the graveyard to get its effect
Not to mention missing the timing
>>47962532
>More current cards like Scarm specify that it must be in the graveyard to get its effect
Yeah, but that implies that TCG didn't casually ignore that because muh pet archetypes.
Don't forget that these are the same assholes that banned literally anything else that could compete with Kozmos just so that they could sell the packs harder.
>>47963029
Scarm had the same rulings are X-Saber Darksoul though, they just added the text so that the ruling would be more obvious
Kozmos are gay and Tewart is shit, but Kozmos are the only deck they shilled that hard, Noble Knights and BA werent forced with banlist nukes
>>47961102
>>47961963
Kinda makes me wonder how things would have been if MtG had it's own show akin to the Yugioh anime. What would it be like? What format? What decks would they play? etc.
>>47963751
I would actually like to see a Magic TV show, but not about people actually playing the card game, a show set in the Magic world. If it were up to me, most of the action would take place on Ravnica, following Jace as he tries to keep the peace as the Guildpact. It would basically be Magic's version of Eureka, a show I really liked.
>>47963751
I think there's a manga about a bunch of high-school Magic players.
There's also a manga about totally-not-Magic called Wizard's Soul. It's much better than the "official" manga I mentioned first.
>>47963835
Out of all the planes and interesting stories you could have chosen. You choose fucking Ravnica. Do the Eldrazi invade it at some point too?
>>47964064
No. It would mostly be focused on the conflicts of the guilds, and Jace's attempts at stopping them from destroying each other. Sorry, I should've mentioned that this would be live-action. If it were animation... well, I still don't know what else I'd do. One of the problems with adapting a Magic storyline is that it is serial by nature. It would have the same difficulties as that show about programmed people, Dollhouse or whatever it was called. Every so often, the characters, plot, and setting would all radically shift with no explanation. It would be very jarring to a TV audience.
...Though I guess we could just say "fuck it" to continuity and do OP characters. Jesus, why have I not thought of that before? Oh right, because I don't like OP's in established media.
>>47961504
Not him, but I've never heard of that specific play. How do you do it?
>>47963751
Follow the Jacestice League as they hop planes to stop Nicols Bolas' latest evil scheme.
>>47963751
I'll give this one a shot
The format would be modern. The cardpool is large and deep enough to have a ton of varied decks (not necessarily tier 1-3) whilst also giving plenty of opportunities to show off cards from a new set. All the while less likely to alienate newer/younger players with cards from legacy/vintage which they most likely never seen or heard of before. They could also on occasion play things like Commander, planechase, etc to shake things up.
The protagonist is a rambunctious, excitable kid, who mostly plays Red, but later on explores more colors and it's combinations.
His friend is his foil, the cool and collected type. Plays a control deck with an affinity for Blue mostly.
The token girl would play Green.
The villain/evil rival would play black, cause he's dark and edgy.
The second season villain would be a supernatural, cult leader type who mostly would play White
>>47964282
I would want to throttle whoever greenlit that. Goddamn Magic writing has taken a turn for the worse, it's been doing a nosedive for years now. And the sad part is, most of it could've been avoided if Wizards weren't adamant on turning their planeswalkers into superheroes. Now we have to deal with the problems that plague comics.
>Retcons, retcons, retcons!
>Nothing will ever be the same!
>Characterization? What the fuck is that?
>>47964282
Don't forget, the actors are all minorities, even though the actual characters are white!
>>47964399
But anon! Super hero movies are all the rage now! We're about to get to the really good part where the Jacetice league returns to Ravnica, to stop the mysterious sixth Nephilim, which turns out to be a previously unknown Eldrazi Titan!
>>47964350
You know, I'd actually really love a show where the writers show an actual deep understanding and appreciation for Magic. Not YGO's "Fuck the rules, it's anime time!" but going through actual plays. Like, you could have a character talk about "Red Deck Wins" and how Lightning Bolt is responsible for the four-of limit.
>>47964423
Oh wow, I can't believe I just noticed all the core planeswalkers are White. I'm kinda surprised since Wizards seems to be going for the "inclusivity" angle now.
>>47964488
Gideon is actually Mediterranean. He was retconned to have originated from Theros since Magic Origins. Chandra also now comes from Kaladesh, which is pretty much Indian Steampunk.
>>47964475
God, I'm really starting to hate Marvel now. Don't get me wrong, the movies are great more often than not, but the team-up movies (Avengers and Civil War (which is really just Avengers 2.5)) make me want to tear my goddamn hair out. And the problem is that they've shaped the public perception of what comic books are now. I so hope DC does well in the future so we can get some actual comics awesomeness on the big screen, instead of this watered-down bullshit Marvel's giving us. Calling it now, Thanos gets stomped easily in the last 15 minutes of Infinity War Part Boogaloo or whatever the fuck and never gets mentioned again. And Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Bucky will still be completely devoid of personality. After-credits twist:They're actually just cardboard cuttouts and nobody noticed.
>>47964488
>>47964560
Liliana, too.
>>47964560
>Mediterranean
Eh, does that really count as non-White?
>Indian
Chandra isn't Indian, neither are her parents. Wizards even pointed out that Khaladesh or whatever is racially diverse. Again, inclusivity. Like how we now have people wearing kimonos or Japanese makeup in the gothic horror, European setting of Innistrad.
>>47964621
She's White too.
>>47964626
>Like how we now have people wearing kimonos or Japanese makeup in the gothic horror
It's literally only one person. Besides, Tamiyo wasn't introduced in Innistrad because of "muh racial diversity". She was made up to throw a bone at kamigawafags. I can't Snapcaster Mage really counts, since he's an card designed by a proplayer, and the art is based on their likeness.
>>47964626
> Like how we now have people wearing kimonos or Japanese makeup in the gothic horror, European setting of Innistrad.
it's almost like she's not from there. Like she traveled, or walked, from another place, like another plane.
>>47951327
Synchro Summoning, among other ill-thought of mechanics that turned the whole metagame into deck to deck rock paper scissors.
As has been beaten to death: no secondary market due to altered printings and ridiculous markups on key cards in sets or releases
Inescapable power creep
Complete lack of prize support, even worse than Pokemon TCG and VGC formats which are notoriously bad
Horrible event coverage and articles post-2008ish I want to say.
Up until I want to say 2015, a complete lack of video media event coverage. Still lacking knowledgeable commentary when media coverage is present most of the time.
And probably an overlooked, yet important factor imo is the total lack of support for and format besides Standard. MTG has Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Pauper, Commander, Two-Headed Giant, etc. Yugioh tried adopting draft for a while, and while it was a nice breath of fresh air but the way they implemented it was awful. For a time, draft determined who won "major" events and that is completely ass-backwards from the tried and true method Magic uses.
I'm gonna invalidate my entire post when I say I only play Goat format from time to time because to me it's still fun and it still feels like "Yugioh", whatever that meant back in 2005.
>>47959160
Thanks for clearing that up
>>47964737
>>47964781
Oh no, not Tamiyo. I don't give a shit about her. I get that she's from another plane, that's fine.
>>47964948
that is not a kimono, and that's not makeup.
>>47964225
What they should do is make a special planeswalker just for the show, and he can't control where he planeswalks to. Every episode he jumps to a new plane and needs to get enough mana to jump again as he tries to make it home, often solving problems for some of the plane's denizens before making the jumpyes I just want MtG Quantum Leap
>>47964737
What the fuck was with me at the last sentance? I was writing like I had an aneurysm there.
>>47964571
I really want DC to succeed and compete in the superhero movie field. It's a shame they have no fucking clue what they're doing and just keep trying to make The Dark Knight
>>47951327
Konami is a garbage company and every person who played the game who was above the appropriate age to be watching the show was a costic social degenerate, had one or more mental illnesses and/or was a pedophile.
>But mtg is just as bad!
>I've seen people just as bad who play other games
>That's bullshit
I live in Houston and every game store worth a shit banned the game because the player base was driving off other clientele.
>>47965218
That's at least partially because Houston is a bit of a shithole.
Source: am a Houstonian.
>>47965218
Mostly MTGfag here. Yea, mtg has it's own share of autists, but I often hear horror stories of the Yugioh community. Is it really that bad? Any examples of their degeneracy?
>>47952983
I thought removing manaburn made it seem like playing in pussymode, then planeswalkers and other gayass mechanics to make it seem like you were playing a Moba, dropped it after that.
>>47964797
I don't understand this mindset. Synchro is possibly the best mechanic yugioh managed to come up with. You can argue the design of certain individual synchro cards were problematic (like XYZ later, with SHARK and the generic rank 4 package), but by and large it gave yugioh a distinct identity as a tcg, not just 'that tcg with a tv show.' It was now 'the tcg with an extra deck that you combine cards from your main deck to summon'. It's fusion as it should have been designed from the start.
>>47965267
Had all TCG banned at my community college because two black guys got into a fight over Yugioh text rulings. Someone also decided to be a funny guy and throw a chair, which sparked even more people to start fighting for no reason.
>>47965267
I live in a college town and the YGO community is mostly 16-20somethings. They have the periodic "nerd odor" but are mostly alright people.
You get bad eggs all the time. Just because one small handful of jackasses happens to browse your locals doesn't mean the entire game is cancer.
>>47965346
People that enjoy weebshit are subhumans and are intrinsically garbage.
>>47965477
C'mon, anon, I know you can do better than that.
>>47964879
>Inescapable power creep
but they did a really really good job bringing the power creep down back in 2014 right before DUEA. They just need to do that more often
>>47965477
Boy, that sure was edgy! Welcome to our secret club! Visiting for the summer?
>>47965315
Oh fuck! You're so hardcore! Occasionally taking one damage from manaburn once every twenty games!
>>47965319
Its just retards who cant associate individual cards with problems and just blame the mechanics.
synchros were easily controlled by the ease of tuner access. Konami didnt do well with controlling tuner access. Same thing goes for XYZs, the easiest rank (4) had the strongest cards except for maybe rank 8
>>47965315
I can't comprehend your thought process. Have you ever generated more mana than you intended? How is removing a mechanic that applied to less than 1% of games pussymode?
>>47965568
Pay him no mind. Just an oldfag being an oldfag.
>>47965559
Was it tuners, or was it the generic (non-archtype) goodthings like Stardust, Black rose, Goyo Guardian, etc?
Regardless, I think one of the big problems with yugioh is that there is no rotating format. Mtg tends to mess up the power level of new card types as well (equipment, especially, comes to mind), it's just noticed less due to rotation.
>>47965702
A rotating format would do nothing different except make old printings of cards even more worthless than they may or may not be already.
The power level issue with a non-rotating format only becomes relevant when cards don't get banned/errata'd as they should be. Konami plays it all too much like a business and not enough like a game.
>>47951327
>yugioh died
It can't be that dead, they just made a 3rd movie.
>>47966186
Fourth, actually. People forget the Toei movie.
>>47966190
Does that count? Wasn't that for the Bandai movie for the Bandai game?
>>47966214
It's still Yugioh.
>>47966284
It wasn't even the same card game. Or the same company making it. Thats like saying knock off pokemon games should count in the series lore because its still pokemon.
>>47966340
By that argument anything pre-Battle City in the anime or manga doesn't count as Yugioh.
>>47951643
Konami seems to have a general dislike of gaming in general. They deliberately hinder their employees on the vidya side of things, and crush their distributors on the tabletop end.
>>47966359
Are you talking about not following the rules properly, or upperdeck? Because even if they didn't follow the rules to a T, it was very much an advertisement to the konami owned product that is still being sold today. As for upperdeck, konami and upperdeck were partners, so when upperdeck got kicked out nothing actually changed with the card game. The Bandai movie is advertising a different product by a different company.
>>47966466
>Because even if they didn't follow the rules to a T, it was very much an advertisement to the konami owned product that is still being sold today.
In the manga at least, there was no card game at that point.
And any advertisement for the Bandai card game would have helped generate exposure for the Konami game later.
>>47952000
*cough cough* Urza's Saga *cough cough*
Damn, something stuck in my throat.
sorry, that was the original "breaks the game" block.
>>47966501
The Bandai movie is less of a yugioh movie than Yugioh The Abridged Movie is, and that doesn't count at all. At least the abridged movie revolves around the same product as is being released today. Neither was made by Konami or Upperdeck. If Bandai didn't have its own game I could see the argument, but its literally a different product by a different company.
>>47966606
That hardly matters when there exists a franchise larger than just the games in question.
The "Yugioh" brand name is arguably more important than either of those card games, or else things like the Capsule Monsters anime or the Dungeon Dice Monsters board game wouldn't have been made.
>>47966632
To be fair, both of those died pretty quickly and are only a footnote to the best selling tcg of all time. If they really wanted to capitalise on the work Bandai did, Yugi would be playing a lot more bloody knuckles to send people to the shadow realm, not yugioh. Remember, the OG series didn't even have the card game as a main focus.
>>47966702
And it didn't shift focus to the card game because of either the Bandai or the Konami real-world card games. It shifted focus because the Duel Monsters manga chapter and the Seto Kaiba character became popular. The real-world card games came out of that popularity.
>>47954081
Konami is attempting to dissolve it's Video game division through negligence and deliberate internal sabotage. As one of japan's foremost triple-A publishing houses, how many video games do you think they have scheduled for release in 2016? And how many original IPs are they trying out? All the major consoles: X-Bone, PS4, WiiU, 3dS
The answer, appears to be one (1) japanese-only baseball game on the PS4 with characters that appear to have stepped out of the Nintendo Mii maker, only, less detailed. I did not know that was possible. Search "Jikkyou Pro Yakyuu 2016" for the amazing graphics.
Meanwhile, they are releasing seven (7) new arcade machines, of which two are pachinko cabinets, one is a betting mahjong game, one is a virtual horse racing cabinet (where you just place bets and watch ponies run, no gameplay involved), one game which *might* be a fighting game for Japan release only (and extreme weeaboos), and the remaining two are DDR and a rhythm title that does not appear to correspond to any instrument i have ever seen before
So, a company that has made such classic as Ghosts & Goblins, Metal Gear Solid, Castlevania, and countless other franchises, is now down to making foreign slot machines.
>>47966809
Honestly, I don't get my Konami suddenly fucking with their vidya divisions when they make so much money while Pachinko has been nothing but money loss/breaking even till recent tiny profits.
>>47966748
Do you also argue that Star Wars has actually had 8 movies because of the christmas special? Because this is the amount of obscurity you dive into when you count a movie by a different company for a different product with only a marginal representation of what makes the franchise popular as an official movie.
>YGO is dying
Good. I can't wait to this cancer dissapear absolutely from my LGSs. now wait to FoW never arrive alive here and Vanguard die in terrible agony.
>>47966913
you must be great to play with
>>47966875
Nine actually, you forgot the CGI Clone Wars pilot movie that got a theatrical release.
But seriously.
The Toei movie exists. It was part of the early exposure of the Yugioh anime and manga. The popularity of the Yugioh anime and manga helped push the Konami card game in its early life. Whether or not the Toei movie and the Toei anime were INTENDED to advertise the Konami card game, it certainly helped.
It's like saying the popularity of the first Star Wars movie had no effect on selling Return of the Jedi toys.
>>47966834
Japan is changing its laws regarding Gambling.
See, in Japan, Gambling is technically illegal: you cannot win *money* playing pachinko or any other game.
Instead, you win teeny steel ball bearings. Which, in Japan, are treated like Tickets in a Chuck-E-Cheese.
You take them to the counter, a nice person weighs your balls (ha!), and awards you a giant stuffed animal.
You take the prize out of the "arcade" walk next door to the "pawn shop" and sell the prize for real money.
Not technically gambling. Completely legal.
but, now Japan is looking to finally, after decades of turning a blind eye, closing the loophole by just making gambling legal.
Gambling machines in America are very, VERY tightly legislated and regulated. consider how Japan enforced it's previous gambling laws, allowing that glaring loophole to go through for long enough that we here in America knew about it... Now realize they are about to draft all new legislation, which will likely also have just as many unpatchable holes in it...
>>47966930
I like to play good games. not hot weeb garbage.
>>47951327
Power creep. That's literally the primary reason, they didn't bother to design a good game and just kept making better cards and more ridiculous mechanics as the years rolled on forcing people to buy the shiny new product or have no real chance at winning any games.
There's also the lack of a good limited format which is the main thing keeping Magic alive right now. I don't think it's nearly as serious an issue but it is a contributing factor.
>>47966958
Wasn't rebels a movie? Or is that what you're talking about?
I'm not saying the Bandai movie had no relation to the game at all. Im saying its not an official movie and shouldn't be counted as an official movie for very obvious reasons. The Bandai should be listed in the same category as spin offs and 'other' when counting it, not as a real movie. Pyramid, Bonds and Dark Side are like Lord of the Rings 1 to 3, Bandai is like the animated movie that came before them. Yes, it happened, and I'm sure some people watched the live action movies becsuse they liked the animated film, but you don't jump in and count it as a movie when you're talking about the current franchise.
>>47966977
I know that, I am just saying that I fail to see why Konami is completely fucking themselves over in vidya department and going all-out on the gambling instead of playing it smart on both fronts.
>>47967105
Ah.
Yeah, everyone is wondering that shit. Maybe their president can't beat the first level of Ghosts & Goblins and is taking it out on his employees. You've heard about what a nightmare it is to work in that company, haven't you?
>>47967131
Not since the whole Kojima fiasco no, things still getting worse I assume?
>>47967101
Rebels DID have a TV movie, which I was unaware of. But I was referring to the Clone Wars "film" from 2008 that preceded the CGI Clone Wars TV series, because like I said that one had a theatrical release. So, ten.
But if you want to discount the Toei movie because muh Bandai, maybe you should also discount the Pyramid of Light movie, because that one was a 4kids cashgrab primarily made to pimp the anime.
>>47957062
Different anon and I think Planeswalkers were a great idea.
That said, I am really unhappy with how they were added to game. They didn't bother to integrate them at all, every single walker is a mythic rare (by definition something that shouldn't show up often in one of the most common formats and that will cost enough to put it out of reach for many constructed players) and there are very few cards among the other types that reference them specifically. Quite frankly that's idiotic. If you're going to add something to the game as complex as planeswalkers you should actually bother to ADD THEM TO THE GAME. Print them at lower rarities, print cards that actually interact with them specifically, make them feel like anything other than some weird new sidegame that you decided to tack on.
A planeswalkers-matter set isn't even something that can be brought to the table for discussion at this point and that's basically all the information I need to conclude that they severely fucked up the introduction of the new card type.
>>47967180
I am ok with Planeswalkers being mythic if they are also printed on a side in readily available format, like in starter decks and duel decks. Too bad that the whole starter planeswalker decks are already confirmed for being purposely gimped.
>>47959023
Uh, sealed product is the thing that is being sold. You know WotC doesn't run the secondary market, right? That's what makes it secondary. I wouldn't be surprised if they had some shady dealings with certain stores but for the most part they are in the business of selling sealed product.
So yeah, Yugioh outselling them there is actually quite notable.
>>47964626
>She's White too.
IIRC the party line is that she's supposed to be the MTG equivalent of Middle Eastern. It's splitting hairs but this is /tg/.
>>47967146
Every day. Kojima was just what tipped off the rest of the world to the working conditions. Jim Sterling periodically likes to check in with his contact in the company and divulge another collection of horror stories, but it's been fairly dry recently.
>>47967271
What kind of Terror goes on in those halls?
>>47961506
>quality of the game
Yeah, I think the point you're missing is that the quality of gameplay in Magic is lacking. The only reason I even continue to bother with the game is the ridiculous quantity of card available and the ease with which you can make new ones in MSE to inject more life into it, other than that it has nothing left to offer. Lands make deck construction into an interesting puzzle but that puzzle stopped being fun ages ago and it makes for shitty gameplay since you can't do anything in the moment to mitigate the luck of the draw.
It's not a bad game but it's no longer the best game by a long shot and there is a lot of room left for improvement by new contenders.
>>47960453
I can confirm this as somebody else in The Deep South. I've had three binders of my cards stolen before. Some white dude even assaulted me for beating him in a duel and two people had to pry the fucker off me. Surprisingly enough, Seto Kaiba is actually an accurate representation of the behavior of certain players. Children's card games are serious business and business is fucking horrifying.
>>47967204
But why though? That's the part that bugs me. To put it another way, would you be cool if all artifacts were mythic rare? No, right? Because that's stupid, they're just another card type. Planeswalkers are also just another card type, there's literally no reason they couldn't have been added at lower rarities.
I think the line they usually go with is that they "want them to feel special" but if that's the case they obviously failed. Every other deck runs several of them so they aren't uncommon to see or play and why would they need to be less common than other legendary cards anyway? It all just seems very poorly planned.
>>47967180
I'm glad you aren't in charge of anything mtg related.
>>47967295
Konami is fond of hiring programmers and then assigning them a desk with no computer. They are then given programming objectives and deadlines, but not a computer. Often they do not receive a computer until their deadline has already passed.
Konami is intensely paranoid, and monitors the activities of employees with an extensive closed circuit camera system. There are cameras in every hall that track the movements of employees looking for irregularities in their actions, they may be questioned by superiors regarding any strange movements they make, such as why they spent time in the toilet or visited another office.
Konami will reassign employees to fields that are unrelated to the role they were hired for, some software developers have found themselves given "humiliation positions" such as toilet scrubbing or security staff, and then had their pay cut to match.
When one employee announced on Facebook that he was leaving the company, Konami monitored his post, and then reassigned any employee who had "liked" it.
Most internal employees don't have their own permanent E-mail addresses. Instead, their company e-mail address is a random string of characters, which is routinely scrubbed, randomized and changed every few months.
If an employee leaves the office for lunch, their movement is monitored with a time card. any employee who returns late will have their name announced to the entire company.
Computers inside their offices often have no internet access, and can only send and receive messages internally.
>>47967508
I am too. You know the designers are heavily constricted by the company, right? The job sounds like absolute hell. Easy hell for the pay, sure, but still.
>>47967518
how have they stayed in the market
I feel like I need jim sterling in here to give me a good ole #fuckonami
Also I'm not sure how many people who just read that know what I'm talking about
>>47967566
It sounds very Japanese to me.
>>47967461
because planswalkers give you more power each turn until they can be removed without investing additonal resources. While some enchants do this, most of the lower rarity ones are either very expensive in doing this, or are a static ability.
That's a powerful thing you don't want to make to common in limited.
They are also inherently complex cards, multiple abilities, ticking up and down. MtG does do high complexity at low rarity. The reason behind that is kinda long and complicated, but it does make sense.
An uncommon planswalker would really fuck up any limited environment it was thrown into.
>>47965315
Their justification for removing it was because in +10 years of Pro Tour top 8s, it only ever mattered in one game, in like 2002. In over 17 years of playing I can't recall a specific situation where I've ever taken mana burn and had it matter; perhaps 1 damage every 1000 games due to Metalworker or Doubling Cube.
>>47967678
The card with 'cumulative upkeep: add R to mana pool' and Mindslaver are the only times I've personally seen it in action too.
>>47967566
They haven't. They've mostly left it and are basically just doing pachinko machines, yu gi oh, and a yearly soccer game.
>>47967652
First off, "it's bad for limited" isn't a real argument. The game is (supposedly anyway) more than just limited formats and it's important to balance considerations for all aspects of the game. Allowing one to completely dominate and get final say in all rarity discussions is ridiculous and lazy.
Second, they don't even have to be bad for limited. Draft doesn't have to be a grinding low-powered slog, that's just what they're currently pushing. Have you never played a high power cube before? Or even a moderate power one? Shit can be just as fun if not even more fun when you end up with decks that aren't literal stacks of garbage.
Obviously you don't just drop the existing walkers to common and leave everything else the same. You print a few better common creatures to compensate. You give every color better removal or other ways to answer walkers that don't require a board presence. You make everything a little better and a little more interactive. Your limited format won't die and it will arguably be better for it.
Also as a bonus third point, even if you wanted to assume that you were right "some players will randomly get handed blatantly overpowered cards that nobody else can reliably deal with" is extremely shitty design.
>>47954190
>worrying your opponents going to steal your cards.
>In front of you.
>while you're playing them
fucking YuGiOh.
>>47968008
This happens more often than you think.
>>47968024
But... How? Do people just go 'Hey, can I see that expensive card?' and straight up pocket it then and there? How do you get your shit stolen while you are actively watching them?
>>47968069
Yugioh players are in the whole different world from normal people.
>>47967888
Planeswalkers are inherently Mythics because they possess the ability to travel planes, something a summoned creature can't do without special tools. They represent another player joining you in your fight; to have one at uncommon would deflate their purpose and importance.
>>47953147
>I play a card in MTG
>my opponent manages to get the disgusting grease on his neckbeard hands around and somehow into my double sleeves
>games resumes
>he does so in YGO
>DONT TOUCH MY CARDS JUDGE JUDGE
>>47968069
Do you not remember in yugioh where Insector Haga did that exact thing with Yugi's exodia pieces and threw them off of the boat? Many of the trashlords who play competitive yugioh are the real life equivalent of Haga.
>>47968755
Why do weeb games attract the shittiest people? The 12-16 Vanguard players at my LGS (Yugioh is banned where I play) make substantially more noise than a 64 player Magic tournament; and are infinitely more obnoxious and oblivious of how others perceive them.
>>47965218
>>47965245
I feel like there are exactly three Houstonians on /tg/ because every tenth thread or so I'll see one post mentioning Houston, another post seconding "I'm from Houston" and then I'm the third post while the thread is dying
Who are you, screwston bros? What did you see?
>>47967888
>First off, "it's bad for limited" isn't a real argument.
Limited is the driving force behind sale of packs. Y'know, the only way WotC makes money off of magic?
>Draft doesn't have to be a grinding low-powered slog
Maro and friends have written dozens of articles on this topic and he answers blog posts about it as well. I'm not going to bother finding any of those articles because I don't have them on hand and I don't care that much, but their reasons for designing draft this way and keeping power-creep in check are thoughtful and well laid out, even if I don't personally agree with all of them.
>Obviously you don't just drop the existing walkers to common and leave everything else the same
No of course not. You boost everything else up to compensate for the free value these uncommon walkers are creating. Are you being intentionally obtuse or do you not see the slippery slope your powerlevels are on here? Powerful things are complex and complex things are harder to balance. However, powerful things are fun and sometimes unfair games are too. This is a small part of why planeswalkers are kept at such a high rarity; you get the good and the bad, but not so often that it becomes a central experience. A garnish, if you will.
There's also the flavor of it, the whole "one-in-a-million" thing, which is the reason I personally find most compelling.
>>47968730
uh ya, that's what he said
>>47951934
>expectation of theft
Could you explain?
>>47960217
>keyword complain is retarded
Not its not, YGO just wrote itself into a courner with the special effects. No other card game i know of has cards with effects that take 3-4 minutes to read and work out
>>47960458
>and you are naive enough to think that Wizards doesn't see magic the same way?
MTG is not a cash grab, it's clearly made by guys who like card games and try to make a card game that they would like. Of course money is a big part in it, but unlike YGO it's not the main part
>>47951327
The meta killed it.
>>47959754
My past experiance with yugioh and it's rulings makes me thankful magic has gatherer.
>>47962149
>>47969281
naive
one of my proves is that Magic will not reprint certain cards because the money the collectors get then and their treat to boycott the game if they do
so yes Wizard is not that concern with the game
>>47969775
>certain cards because the money the collectors get then and their treat to boycott the game if they do
so yes Wizard is not that concern with the game
Thats because the secondary market is huge, and most magick players take part in it, they still reprint some cards, but as i said, MTG is also a buissnes, and a big part of it is making money, it's just that it's not the only part. Wizards have not done anything that would hurt the game a lot, and they listen to feedback, so yes, they cear
>>47969793
All I ever heard magick players say that ruined yugioh is doubtful at best so for me you are not making a very strong argument here
>>47969812
I'v playd YGO for a bit, and the complaints always seem rather valid to me, the game is a mess, it needs a bit of spring cleaning, someone to put all the stuff in the right places, trim down the faty text, and make away with the retarded rules
>>47951934
>In YGO all of those judging documents are under lock and key, and require signing an NDA to get access to them.
WHY
>>47969880
and you just say that the game is a mess without saying what's wrong
and the key word bit is the only thing that is constantly pointed but that is mostly e more esthetic choice instead of real improvised
as an example of how key words are no a all solution I saw many times magic player arguing over what ever a key word is and using the fact that there is a creature that is the same as a key word to cheat agent new players
>>47969950
you have a whole fucking thred of people explaining what is wrong with YGO, why dont you read it
>>47969981
I read it and it's mostly people complaining about the speed of the game or the design of the cards
as I already pointed out those are mostly opinion points, just because you don't like it doesn’t mean it's broken
the only legit complain on this hole thread is how ruling works on the USA but I don't care for that as the world is mere than that
>>47958386
> run afoul of Gambling Laws
> You know there's something wrong with your laws when a competitive card game runs afoul of gambling laws.
>>47970023
how ruling works
how much of a powercreep there is
how much problems there is with the interpretation of the cards (what ever you say about key words, they are much clearer)
how pendulum sucks
how konami treats the game
thats just a few
>>47970047
>how much of a powercreep there is
covered on game speed
>how pendulum sucks
covered on card design
>how much problems there is with the interpretation of the cards (what ever you say about key words, they are much clearer)
covered on ruling
and this is why I don't like magic players not only do you keep saying the same thing over and over as if it is a new argument but you are also one of the worst No Fun Allowed guys on /tg/
and that is saying something
>>47951327
was there even that much yugioh players in it's prime ? It has always struck me as a meme game propped up by an anime, but that nobody played.
>>47967678
I Miss winning games with forced mana burn...
>>47970071
We keep saying the same things because you don't have a real response. You just keep saying that you don't care about those things.
>>47970134
most of your stuff is just opinions that you are pretending that are facts
but let's go pint by point with you to see if you can understand that other people can like what you dislike
- Pendulum are balanced and can be used to help some older decks (as make spell counter at lest cable of wining every now and them)
- Konami has being printing new support for older cards as many players have asked
- Games don't have to be slow and having a faster speed helps differentiate Yugioh from other TCG
- Konami of America is really a problem with all the rulings and interpretations issues they case but they do not rule all countries
>>47970187
>Games don't have to be slow and having a faster speed helps differentiate Yugioh from other TCG
There is a big diference between game beaing quick and a game ending in turn 2, btw. YGO is not quick, your turns last up to 10 minutes, i can play a game in that time and start a nother if im lucky with my draw
>>47970224
>game ending in turn 2
false unless you go with a really poorly made deck against a top meta and in that case I will counter that point with the fact that magic has mere them one turn ) kills
form what you are saying it's obvious you haven't play the game since Dragorulers
let me tell you this the ban list exist for a reason and the cards that made what you are complaining possible have already been ban
>>47953007
But you are this autistic.
>>47970024
>poker isn't gambling
Or
>poker isn't competitive
I think what you meant to say was
>collectible card game for manchildren
>>47952100
Shouldn't the smug anime face be on the very bottom.
Like several levels BELOW the name calling
>>47970071
I'm not that anon but I'll bite.
The cornerstone of competitive integrity in any game is transparency in the rules. Any Magic player can go online and download a document that contains every single Magic rule possibly needed. This kind of transparency is very important because having strong mechanics is necessary in order to be a high class of player. Transparency enables the independent development of technical skill.
Yugioh doesn't have a comprehensive rules document. It has a little starter deck booklet. The way the games rules are managed is a giant game of Chinese telephone. The rules are spread entirely through the unofficial wiki, hearsay, and judges words.
The XYZ starter debacle is my favorite example. Konami releases a new card type and makes it tournament legal while the only printed rules are one page that had less than 50 words. The results of an entire tournament were horribly warped by the incorrect yet judge-sanctioned rulings. The idiot judges in america decided that XYZ material were somehow monsters in play, and that tour guide fetching a sangan would yield a ridiculous advantage. Tour guide spiked over $80 during that period. This one tournament is basically a cross section of how every Yugioh metagame evolves. New cards come out, retard judges make them broken, card spikes to an absurd price, a new ruling or reprint tanks the value of the card a month later.
>>47970410
>>47970440
Point proven.
>>47970440
>ROFL_ragnathebloodedge.txt.tar.bz.jpg
>>47951364
>It's not dead, but reasons for declining popularity is rarity gouging by the printers in non-JP markets by making important competitive cards that were common in JP the rarest cards in other countries, to the tune of $30, $50, $65, or even $100 each.
Also sometimes other countries don't even get some of the strongest cards for certain archetypes.
>>47970424
>how every Yugioh metagame evolves
except you are wrong there anon, for example the ruling on Performapal Sorcerer are clear and he is a key card on the meta
you have to stop assuming that just because it happened on the past it still happens
and yes the american ruling system is a problem, if you read my posts you will se that I acknowledge that but I also point out that they are mostly a problem on USA and that there are many players (me included) that don't have to deal directly with it
>>47970460
do you think that if Ragna played Vanguard he would use Overlord or Vermilion?
