If you had to choose one or the other, should elementals generally be chaotic, or lawful?
I would have all of some element be chaotic and all of some of other elements be lawful
>>47917180
All intelligent elementals should be chaotic. As literal aspects of creation the idea that things are governed by "laws" is absurd and the real of lesser beings who try to make more of the situation then what's really there.
>>47917180
Neutral.
>>47917180
I'd divide it up depending on nature of the 'element' e.g. fire/air chaotic water/earth lawful
but if I had to say a general rule, chaotic, because in nature fire doesn't burn without fuel nor does water defy gravity or anything else these things do
Earth and Water: Lawful
Air and Fire: Chaotic
I would say chaotic, mostly. There are natural laws, yes, but the universe is all about entropy and change. Nature is in constant flux.
Chaotic, because I would not expect a lawful elemental to be particularly noteworthy. Like if there is a lawful water elemental living in a lake, why would anyone ever find out?
>>47917259
I like this answer.
>>47917180
Lawful, they act in very specific manners and do not deviate from such. They are inherently lawful beings not because they follow mortal laws, but because they have rules they go by that they are literally incapable of breaking.
>>47917259
But creation is governed by a set of laws. They're called the laws of physics
>>47919409
Even demons obey gravity.
...for the most part.
Physical laws and Lawful Alignment aren't exactly the same thing.
>>47917276
>Water
>Lawful
Compared to fire and air, yes, but...
>>47917180
Lawful.
They don't obey human laws, but they obey the laws of nature/creation absolutely. Elementals help govern and protect the aspects of nature that they are drawn from, which means they operate within a delicate balance and order. Nature seems chaotic but honestly it's such an incredibly complex balance that needs to be maintained.
Lawful Neutral is my answer. Nature can be wonderful and it can be incredibly harsh, but it is governed always by its own balance and its own rules.
>>47917180
Alignments and Elementals don't mix too well. A Water Elemental's alignment is Icy Refreshing or Stagnant Lukewarm or whatever.
>>47919409
"Natural laws?" Syl said, finding the concept amusing. "Laws are of men, Kaladin. Nature doesn’t have them!"
"If I toss something upward, it comes back down."
"Except when it doesn’t."
"It’s a law."
"No," Syl said, looking upward. "It’s more like ... more like an agreement among friends."
>>47920451
Nice. Source of the quote?
>>47920626
Words of Radiance, second book in "The Stormlight Archive" by Brandon Sanderson. His books are pretty great /tg/ idea fuel.
>>47920626
Nevermind, googled it
>>47920685
Oh well thanks.
>>47917259
This. Also, an elemental is LITERALLY the elements defying the "laws" of physics/nature.
I´d say demons are more lawful than elementals. Demons can be bound by contracts while elementals have to be forced or you have to befriend them. In that way they are more like a thief who does whatever he wants rather than a sellsword who follows the rules set by his society.
>>47920820
>Demons can be bound by contracts while elementals have to be forced or you have to befriend them.
And in some iterations demons are wild forces of destruction that must be coerced while elementals support anyone who keeps order within nature. Right in D&D a demon doesn't give half a shit about contracts and will just rape your face for the glee of it.
An argument can be made either way.
I see the regular elementals as having a chaotic bent, they're free and acting according to their capricious natures. A lawful elemental would be a spirit that rests in its natural domain, acting only to protect itself and it's environment and perhaps communicate with worthy parties. More like nature spirits, really.
>>47920924
>Anyone who keeps order within nature
I would argue that´s how you befriend an elemental. I forgot to add the asterisk that demons of course vary across different universes.
>>47920950
Everything varies across different universes
>>47920820
>>47920950
The whole demon contract thing is within a minority of depictions you know. Using it as an argument for demons being more lawful is kinda bullshit
>>47920451
>"Except when it doesn’t."
Because it's interacting with another law
>>47921026
Seems more like a matter of language and semantics. A "law" is a structure of math and logic around nature, an elementally minded sort would probably take offense to it, especially if they are conflating it with the more arbitrary laws of man. And to be fairfair, physical laws have little to do with "why" things are, unless perhaps you finish science I suppose.
>>47917180
Definitely chaotic.
>>47920451
Syl a cute, a Cute! That said,Pattern a best, Stormfather a shit.
>>47921202
Yeah, "laws" of nature are unbreakable which makes them a different thing entirely.
There's no gravity police.
>>47917180
That has always been something I found tricky; they're chaotic in mannerism and personality, but they're undoubtedly lawful in function.
>>47917259
And yet in relation to each other elementals are arguably as rigid as the Modrons; Ice elementals always oppose fire and heat and will instinctively antagonize a fire elemental without being told, water earth elementals will attempt to repair their surroundings if they suffer from incursions from rival elements, and other such shenanigans. Elementals are programs first and foremost, and whenever they hit a situation where their programming tells them to do something specific to their element, they do that thing chaos be damned.
That depends on the setting
>>47917180
Chaos is elemental and original, so chaotic.
>>47924640
I really like this interpretation.
>>47924968
this is true, but aren't there themes to elementals, aside from their composition, that are similar between settings?
>>47925231
They control elements. That's really the only mandatory thing.
>>47920270
This, exactly this.
When you truly think about it the various functions that all have to be performed for an ecosystem to maintain and prosper is ridiculous. Everything has to be in cohesion and turning together like a group of different shaped cogs. When you look at it from the outside and compare it to a totally different system it all seems oddly placed and mashed together, you think how much more effecient and logical it could be. But if you move or remove even one piece then it all ceases to function, or at least rapidly declines to a nonfunctionial state.
So, really, nature and the things birthed from it are quite lawful. Everything following its patterns and responsibilities to keep the whole healthy, albeit unknowingly.
>>47924640
Does a tiger that stalks it's prey as long as it's not seen constitute programming? instinct is not the same as law but merely the way things are done. To be "programmed" and to have "laws" would require a concious effort to decide that these things are what they are rather a result of cause and effect.
Nature is and that is is chaotic.
>>47924568
That makes them absolute laws. It makes them better laws than any man-made ones. Things literally cannot defy them.
>>47925369
>But if you move or remove even one piece then it all ceases to function, or at least rapidly declines to a nonfunctionial state.
But the thing is that does happen, and rather often, it's just the system eventually develops again or finds some other state to exist in. It's even to the point these disruptions have become part of the system in certain cases.
It's a strange thing, because the stability was not formed with the intention of any of that happening. Things just...happen, and whatever functions that are capable of persisting do, while others do not. They continuously build upon each other, sometimes breaking things and sometimes creating an ever more complicated web of necessary functions. It's like a machine that continuously breaks and is duct taped back together. It's a very fragile thing of patchwork design.
>>47924568
false. there are inevitables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inevitable_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
>>47917180
Chaotic. Even if they're following the laws of nature, its still very sporadic and seemingly random.
A Chaotic character is still governed by the laws of physics, but that doesn't make them stop being chaotic.
>>47925400
>True elementals are simple creatures, thriving spirits animating bodies of pure elemental matter. They regard their lives as an eternal struggle to best themselves and each other. Each elemental type is uniquely suited to adapting to conditions on its particular plane, and is arrogant about its powers when surrounded by its element... and uniquely frightened and cowed when shown a greater power or encased in an element not its own. Most elementals do not bargain for favors—they respect only strength.
If that were the case, you could make the same argument that the Modrons are functioning entirely on instinct (which technically speaking, they are) and thus are actually chaotic neutral. The way the elementals are described in relation to the leaders of the plane is almost parallel to how the Modrons function in relation to Primus; each elemental has a "tier" of strength (lesser, standard, greater, elder, ect.) and becomes closer in function to Archoelemental the higher up the tier list it moves, and this is encouraged due to a universal driver of all elementals being stated to constantly work to increase their strength. Of the Archoelementals, their goals are blunt; they want to make their particular element the most important thing of the multiverse, and the entire elemental hierarchy works towards achieving that goal without most of their members even knowing it, because the simple act of elementals strengthening themselves also strengthens the standing of their element, while they certainly serve to execute this directly whenever following the orders of the Archo-overlords when invading a plane.
TL;DR: Elementals are functioning on a less retarded version of Primus's system, where instead of everyone being a worthless monodrone the endgame is that everybody is a demi-god that can kick ass. They're like cells, functioning in service of the UR-mass that is their base element.
