"Tired of alignment arguments?"
>Shows a bunch of people arguing at a table
"Sick of flat probability curves?"
>Shows a dice rolling a 2
"Tired of the wizard outperforming your fighter in ever regard?"
>Shows a guy pointing to a spell in the players handbook while another person rolls their eyes
"Then do we have a solution for you!"
"Introducing 'Not Playing D&D'! 'Not Playing D&D' is a simple an effective strategy to break the monotony of your day to day roleplaying schedule. Simply buy a book or PDF that doesn't say Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder on it and follow the rules inside!"
"'Not Playing D&D' can be fun for the whole table! You could play Shadowrun, FATE, Burning Wheel, Apocalypse World, Phoenix Command, REIGN, Dinosaurs IN SPAAAACE and many many more!"
>"I played D&D for over 3 years now. I tried not playing D&D and I found my martial artists mobility options could actually interact with his attack options!"
>"I DM'd for most of my gaming life and after not DMing D&D I found I didn't have to fudge numbers on monsters half the time just so the non-caster characters could hit monsters!"
>"I'm a long time wizard fan and after not playing D&D, I don't have to jump through a bunch of pointless hoops now because other character concepts are designed to keep up with me!"
"'Not playing D&D' can result in funner, fuller gaming experiences and is reccomended by game developers around the world."
"We do not reccoment 'Not Playing D&D' if you have a chronic case of stick up your ass, grognard pidgeon syndrome or an unhealthy obsession with your fleshlight in the shape of a d20. 'Not Playing D&D' is not for everyone. Consult with your group if you would like to 'Not play D&D' today!"
>>47911636
>grognard pidgeon syndrome
the probability curve or lack thereof doesn't mean anything when there are only two outcomes, anon
>>47911798It's complicated to explain but basically: Pidgeons in a skinner box test become superstitious and get agitated when the randomized variables of their food being handed out become more consistent because they're being explained that their prior understanding was bullshit. Grognards similarly make up shit about the game they play and that becomes "the game" to them and when explained how that's bullshit they get angry and defensive.
>>47911864
This.
I tried not playing D&D once.
It was awful.
--
Specifically, I tried:
FATE, and found it full of "make shit up" and "stop to discuss with the GM"
Exalted, and it was CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS CHARMS also a million little oddities and shitty editing and Lillun and furries
Traveller, and it was pretty much like D&D in wavering between "broken" and "nothing happens" except with more of the nothing happens and less of the content
Mutants&Masterminds, and it was actually decent but hard to get and keep interested players, also you probably hate it for being too close to D&D what with its flat probability curve and whatnot, and the replacement for casters is called Alternate Power
Amber Diceless, and it was wut
Vampire, and it seemed to combine the worst parts of a railroad and a sandbox
>>47911893
...but have you tried GURPS?
>>47911636
Alignment arguments only happen if people are stupid. There's nothing wrong with a flat probability curve. 4th fixed fighter/wizard imbalance, and my understanding of 5th is that the issue is at least nowhere near as severe as it was in 3.5
>>47911910
What's the difference between GURPS and Heros?
>>47911910
This is a joke, right? I have not tried GURPS, but what I hear secondhand is that it's basically M&M but with a lot more NO FUN ALLOWED and micromanagement.
>>47911893
>"stop to discuss with the GM"
you're not gonna like AD&D
>>47911893
>>47911893
I really like amber diceless but its a pile of weird and fucks and requires a DM that can keep up with the schemes of all the PCs and two dozen NPCs all at once, across a few dozen parallel dimensions.
The fact reading a big stack of novels is a semi-prerequisite for running doesn't help either.
>>47911949
>>47911893
Have you tried applying that same level of critique to D&D?
>>47911893
>Vampire, and it seemed to combine the worst parts of a railroad and a sandbox
You seem to be confusing rule systems with the person refereeing the game. I mean, I'm no big fan of White Wolf systems, but your text doesn't really make a lot of sense in the context of rules.
>>47911985
I've never read a diceless game that didn't either just replace dice with something more inconvenient (like cards) or reduce everything to a talking game.
>'Not Playing D&D' can be fun for the whole table! You could play a bunch of systems about cyberpunk, realistic modern combat simulation random dinosaurs in space instead!
every fucking time
I don't want to play a game about modern day gay vampires. I want to play kitchen sink fantasy games. If you don't like it, fuck off. Now there are some games that do it better than DnD, such as Fantasy Craft, and I am looking into it. But when you get a stick up your ass about someone playing DnD, recommend Fantasy Craft, not fucking Phoenix Command.
So i wanna DM a campaing set on a fantasy version of the age of discovery, my first option for systems is D&D 5e with homebrew, so what systems could provide me more than one of the following:
>crafting system or customizable weapons
>easy to create new playable races/monsters/classes
>rules for sea faring
>rules for exploration
>>47911893
>FATE, and found it full of "make shit up" and "stop to discuss with the GM"
Honestly, some campaigns revolve around things so inherently complex (like dogfighting or Stands of JJBA fame) that the only way to run them well is to either use a simple system that lets you abstract the fuck out of anything complex or use GURPS. FATE is for when you have a campaign like that and you don't want to use GURPS.
>>47911636
Will you ever stop being butthurt?
>>47911636
The problem with the "have you tried not playing D&D" is that people use it more often than not when playing a different system wouldn't solve anything.
Few problems discussed on this board can be solved just by switching systems, largely because at the end of the day, the system is actually only a small component to the game that's being run, and that switching systems just leads to a new veneer on the same old problems.
"Try X system" is not always bad advice, but it's not particularly helpful in a thread about problem players, or about story issues, or even alignment arguments, because even in the last case it's just a name (or a different name) for things you'll find in find in almost every other game. Even games "without" alignments still have degrees of morality to them or factions with codes of conduct, and most alignment arguments typically revolve around these two features of alignment.
Does D&D have flaws? Certainly, but most of these are remedied in far less time than it takes to learn a new system, and the idea that you should abandon a system just because something didn't work out is why we find a lot of people hopping through multiple systems hoping that a change of game will solve their problems.
Most of the whole problem with system discussion is that it's actually political in nature. Play X game or play Y game is a tactic to try to garner support for one game or dissuade people from playing another, and is largely dishonest in its lack of transparency. D&D becomes a target not because it's a bad game by any measure, but because it's popularity means people are less inclined to play other games.
As a person who has played his share of everything under the sun and now plays homebrews almost exclusively, I've really gotten tired of people claiming system superiority or inferiority when they're all just talking about the same inferior games just under different disguises.
If only they knew how amazing Duck in the Circle was.
Post-WotC D&D was a mistake.
>>47912106
>Does D&D have flaws? Certainly, but most of these are remedied in far less time than it takes to learn a new system, and the idea that you should abandon a system just because something didn't work out is why we find a lot of people hopping through multiple systems hoping that a change of game will solve their problems.
Complete bollocks if you're talking about 3.PF. The reason people are so loathe to leave it is that they've put a vast amount of work in to make it function. It's the sunk cost fallacy in a nutshell, and they would still be better off being more open minded and looking at other systems. I can't think of a single system that is harder to learn than D&D is to fix.
>>47912009
Yes. D&D is slightly less broken than M&M and fixed in about the same way: "don't play Pun-Pun" and the occasional high-handed nerfban for people who insist on going down that road anyway. You should have seen the screaming on one player when he wanted to combine about five classes and six splatbooks on his character, argued to the DM "it's not as good as CoDzilla", and the DM responded with "Clerics and druids are now secondary casters, your argument is invalid".
In my experience people generally have an idea of *what* they want to play and you nudge their power level on elements of that specific concept if they're out of line. The mass brokenness of D&D becomes largely irrelevant when you realize that you don't need to fix the Truenamer if nobody is playing a Truename, don't need to fix Incarnum if nobody is playing an Incarnate, don't need to fix the... (insert humorously long list of everything potentially broken or imbalanced in D&D)
Oh look, it's eternally triggered bitch-anon.
>This is only a problem with bad players
>This is hardly a problem to begin with
>This is only a problem in an edition that has been dead for a decade
>>47912126
That might be because you're a bitch-anon?
>>47912073
>>crafting system or customizable weapons
Start learning Savage Worlds motherfucker
>>47912196
>>47912157
Right you're the one getting angry and calling people names in a thread making fun of one of the most popular TTRPG's in the world in the style of a shitty infomercial.
And THEY'RE the ones who're "triggered".
>>47912062
You know he did mention REIGN which IS a fantasy game with several settings right?
Opinions on runequest?
>>47911636
>don't play D&D play these meme games instead
>>47913596
Oh look, it's eternally triggered bitch-anon.
>endless thread after thread about how to fix "×" in 3.pf
>endless thread after thread about how to fix caster imbalance
>how dare someone suggest playing one of those meme games OP must be triggered
Holy kek
>>47913770
>Any RPG that's not D&D is a meme
I just... please stop.
>>47913937
Fate, Apocalypse World, Burning Wheel, Phoenix Command, and Dinosaurs In Spaaaaaace are all clearly meme games. Get the fuck out.
>>47914028
>meme game
>meme x
Please stop.Just say you think they're shit.
>>47914076
I actually like Apocalypse World but don't pretend it isn't a fucking meme game.
>>47914133
>meme game.
No stop. "Is a meme x" really needs to fuck right off.
>>47914154
Why? We both know what it means. What would you propose as the alternative?
gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8 but h8 to rel8
>>47914191
WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT MEAN?
EXPLAIN IT?
>>47914238
You know what it means. A game that isn't actually meant to be played.
>>47914238
Something being a meme means that it is an idea propagated by communication.
IE: Meme Games are games that people discover through communication.
>>47914295
>A game that isn't actually meant to be played.
Okay yeah. You're just fucking with me.
>>47914305
That makes every game a meme game and the term meaningless.
>>47914310
>That makes every game a meme game and the term meaningless.
Yes. "It's a meme X" is a meme phrase.
>>47911910
What classes are in GURPS?
>>47914310
Are you pretending to be retarded? These games are discussed and spread by word of mouth but nobody ever actually plays them. /tg/ is almost completely about the meme games because it's full of people who don't actually play tabletop games.
>>47913596
I think you might want to take one second to realize you lumped everyone who is still playing 3.5/pf into one group before you are allowed to complain about anything else.
>>47911893
>"stop to discuss with the GM"
Gross.
No, but seriously all those systems are shit too.
>>47914310
>That makes every game a meme game and the term meaningless.
That's his point. It is meaningless.
If anything, the most popular games would be "meme games," e.g. D&D or Pathfinder.
>>47911938
yes and no
if you followed all of the rules contained within a GURPS book you would end up with the worst rules bloat you have ever seen and nothing would make sense
the point is that you're supposed to just pick out rules that you like to fit whatever you're playing
>>47911938
GURPS is a toolkit. Pick and choose what you want. GURPS Lite, 50~ odd pages long, has most of the rules for playing the game, sans magic and more detailed combat situations.
>>47914350
None. You use your imagination to make a character up. Though there ARE class templates in GURPS Fantasy if you must
>>47914511
>>47914537
>>47914730
If what does and doesn't matter changes so drastically at the DM's discretion, is it even really a game at that point? Do you need to say, "We're running <game name here>," when you're just making shit up anyways?
So many of the games people put forth as an alternative to D&D are ones with little to no structure. I don't want to just play pretend with my friends - I can do that on my own, I don't need to buy a book or read a pdf for that.
>>47915087
>is it even really a game at that point?
GURPS isn't just a game, Anon.
This is fucking serious
>>47915087
>If what does and doesn't matter changes so drastically at the DM's discretion, is it even really a game at that point?
??? I don't understand the question? GURPS is GURPS. Whether or not you use hit locations or wounding modifiers or bleeding or cover or whatever doesn't really change how combat is resolved, you're just given more means to the end. You still roll to attack, they still roll to defend, and you still roll damage. The only thing that changes is the granularity of the effects.
>Do you need to say, "We're running <game name here>," when you're just making shit up anyways?
But I'm not, anon-kun. It's all there in the books. I can give you page numbers, if you'd like.
>So many of the games people put forth as an alternative to D&D are ones with little to no structure.
GURPS is highly structured and hands having a dozen different splatbooks in play way, way, way, way, way the fuck better than D+D.
>>47912129
Basically, you have no clue what you're talking about. Good to know.
>>47911938
Why don't you just shut the fuck up and read the goddamned rulebook you illiterate
Also stop listening to retarded memekids.
>>47915087
Anon are you mentally deficient in a clinical way or is it just a chronic lack of using your fucking brain and stopping to think for a second?
GURPS is a modular ruleset but is essentially static once modded. You're not making shit up you fucking idiot, you're just discarding rules that have no relevance to your campaign (why the fuck would you have vehicle maneuvering rules in your paleolithic tapestry-weaving campaign)
>>47914350
Jesus Christ, play something other than D&D for once you fucking ignoramus
>>47911915
>There's nothing wrong with a flat probability curve
There sure as fucking hell is, but only if you're not looking for swingy-as-fuck random-ass games with little coherence (this isn't meant as an insult, those games can be fun as hell and is an upside if you want it, but a huge drawback if you don't)
>>47915364
Hey, flat probability curves have their place for random tables. Nowhere else, but they have their place.
>>47915428
Actually like I said, I wasn't actually insulting flat-probability games. I love running M&M with flat-probability because superhero games SHOULD (in my opinion) be swingy as fuck and unpredictably and hilariously chaotic.
Flat-probability has several places apart from zany campaigns and intentionally random things. I just said to the other Anon that there is definitely something wrong with them in several systems where complete randomness is inappropriate.
>>47915364
You're making the common mistake of assuming that the probability of the die result is what ultimately determines the reliability of systems with largely binary "sucsess/failure" resolutions, rather than looking at the average value of the target numbers.
Games with higher/lower values are less swingy and produce more consistent results (regardless of whether the dice involved have a flat probability or curved), while systems with more median target values are more swingy.
Flat probability is ultimately just easier to use and calculate, and provide a wider degree of flexibility in regards to how swingy/consistent you want to make a particular game.
>>47915637
While that's not exactly an untrue argument, technically, I will clarify that I am referring to probability curves in terms of the probability of certain events occurring.
This should've been clear to infer from context, but suffice it to say it is obvious and banal that the probability of certain events occuring can be the same given altered distribution, even with different probability curves.
>>47913836
Oh look, it's the eternally bitch-triggered bitch-anon bitching about people bitching about not liking what he likes.
>>47915743
Oh look, it's eternally triggered bitch-anon.
d20 is terrible, but storygames are worse.
>>47915677
Are you saying that you're hoping to ignore what's obvious and banal, all in order to make a moot argument of little consequence?
You're not really referring to probability curves in terms of certain events occurring, but of certain dice results, which is not the same thing in a roleplaying game. I feel like you're being a bit unscrupulous with your method of argumentation.
>>47915128
>>47915198
>>47915316
Well, with such a welcoming playerbase, how could I not play GURPS?
>>47915951
Consider the fact that the post was a reply to someone claiming flat probabilty curves have literally nothing wrong with them, in context of Dungeons and Dragons.
You're being disingenuous by ignoring that context. Your post, if simply making a pedantic statement about incorrect usage of terminology by the OP, is inconsequential.
>>47916633
why on earth would we care if you play GURPS? Your happiness matters nothing to us
>>47916633
>>47915198 here. I was just correcting that anon. I'm not an evangelist for GURPS. It'd be great if more people played it, especially for the things it's good at, but I'm not going to lose sleep over you saying you won't play it because some people were mean to you on the internet.
>>47916893
>flat probabilty curves have literally nothing wrong with them, in context of Dungeons and Dragons.
Yes. There's literally nothing wrong.
You seem to think there is, based on faulty logic built around a misconception that only looks at one part of a larger equation.
>>47915837
Oh look, it's the eternally bitch-triggered bitch-anon bitching about people bitching about not liking what he likes.
>>47917004
>Variability is too high in Dungeons and Dragons by design
>this is somehow a misconception
nice meme, you math illiterate
>>47917017
Variability isn't too high by design.
In fact, you made a largely unprovable statement, because it is in fact grossly and provably incorrect when it comes to early D&D 4e, where variability was very much on the low side thanks to easily met target numbers to compensate for the comparatively long strings of actions.
I've tried to explain that the degree of reliability has much less to do with the dice involved in comparison to the targets numbers, and with those target numbers and the degree of reliability being a matter of taste that changes between editions, groups, and individuals, I'm starting to feel like you're just going to continue to make awkward statements that are more like unsubstantiated attacks than arguments.
>>47917132
You've explained nothing, I already stated quite explicitly that of fucking course the probability of any given result is the probability of any given result and this depends entirely on where the results are distributed on the probability curve, and as such literally any system can produce literally any mechanically identical result given enough granularity in its choice of stochastic processes, but D&D's general use of modifiers that are too low to impact the resolution mechanic as heavily as the result of the die is literally the definition of high variability: the dice roll matters proportionally more than the skill achievable by any given character. BABs for example are far too low to give any reasonable representation of the narrative skill of any given character in terms of levels.
There are methods employed to mitigate this, of course, but these are additional adjustments necessary exactly because D&D is far too swingy with the modifiers as they are.
4e is far better designed in that sense, but rarely do we talk of D&D as 4e without explicitly mentioning it, and as such it would stand to reason it is not what OP was talking about. See: the reference to caster supremacy, also mitigated in 4e.
Your pseudointellectual nonsense is honestly facile.
>>47912173
Underrated
>>47913731
RQ6/Mythras is my favorite published system.
>>47915364
BRP is flat probability dice results with difficulty adjustments based on multipliers. 5e has its core rules build around getting more or less consistent results. 4e balanced large bonuses to limit swinginess.
>>47917207
>Your pseudointellectual nonsense is honestly facile.
Your very smug for being wrong.
>>47917207
> but D&D's general use of modifiers that are too low
What? I'm starting to get a sense that you really are just a silly troll, especially because not only is that false and D&D does not have a general rule like that, but that such a general rule would make the game less swingy, which is exactly what you're trying to complain about.
Please, can you do me a favor? I think you need to put on a tripcode. You seem like a chap that should warn people who you are.
>>47917328
Do you honestly not know what the words used in my sentences mean? It is the only possible way I can fathom anyone being so oblivious
>>47917345
Who are you.
You seem to be a troll of particular dedication, and I request once again that you warn people, lest they try and take your posts seriously.
>>47917384
Given your evident absence of any mental capacity to understand anything past your own idiocy, I'm going to just stop posting in this thread.
You are objectively retarded. Go seek help.
>>47917403
Put. On. A. Trip.
You seem quite proud of your posts and don't think you are a troll, so why do you act ashamed when asked to sign a name to them?
>>47912017
I always see people retreat to this. "you just had a dumb DM." The rules shouldn't need a genius to run them, because you can't always get a genius when you need one, and when you do get one, they get fed up at how behind the curve you are, and they walk. I wish that everyone who has a pet system they know very well would simplify it down to something their kid sister could run, so that we could all play instead of just looking at each other and arguing about what a succubus can or can't do.
ITT
"Have a problem with a game ?"
Get a fucking decent GM or table that add their own spin to it instead of following the rules like holy laws.
>>47915316
If his group is so deficient that he can't allow the DM to do anything but follow the script in a module without the game blowing up, the he really shouldn't be playing anything other than D&D.
>>47915637
They tend to behave poorly when you have stacking bonuses or penalties. Also, in practice you rarely see results tables that allow flat systems to exhibit normal distribution-like effects.
Calculations are typically equivalent between both systems. Again, stacking bonuses/penalties are the primary concern, not the dice rolling mechanics.
>>47917207
I have a doctorate in a heavy statistics-using field, and I can't figure out what thesaurus-pants here is even trying to say.
>>47912017
Yah it sounds like 99% of his problems boil down to shitty GM, shitty player, shitty group. Fixing the rules when the people suck won't change anything.
White Wolf (and Fate, GURPS, etc) are excellent games but no game can survive chronic assholishness.
>>47918106
every time too
>>47911636
>>"I played D&D for over 3 years now. I tried not playing D&D and I found my martial artists mobility options could actually interact with his attack options!"
Have you
>>"I DM'd for most of my gaming life and after not DMing D&D I found I didn't have to fudge numbers on monsters half the time just so the non-caster characters could hit monsters!"
tried not
>>"I'm a long time wizard fan and after not playing D&D, I don't have to jump through a bunch of pointless hoops now because other character concepts are designed to keep up with me!"
playing 3.5e
>>47920549
Anon I hate to be the one to break this to you but given the average age rating and general attitutes on /tg/ 3.5 IS "standard" D&D to a lot of people.
AD&D is some wierd old school mess with rules nobody understands that's lost in the past with the grognards who never left it.
4e isn't "muh D&D" it's WoW/a tactical combat game masquerading as D&D.
And 5e is too new/lacking in an identity.
I don't like it anymore than you but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
>>47911636
I made two games that weren't D&D so that I wouldn't have to play D&D anymore, and I'm still playing D&D.
Just accept death. There is no escape from the OSR.
>>47911636
"Tired of seeing morons posting shit?"
>Shows a post on 4chan with the text "a dice".
>>47920582
Not that anon, but I disagree with you on both 4e and 5e. 4e is still D&D, but with more rules for the part of the game that actually needs rules instead of, say, tables of prostitutes or profession skills for farmers.
5e is the new/hip/popularized D&D, marketed at the crowd that was introduced to the game via Critical Role and the like.
>>47920665
"Wanna continue shitposting a stupid thread but CAN'T THINK OF A WAY TO MAKE THE TOPIC WORSE?"
>Shows a pair of hands typing at a keyboard then balling into a pair of fists and slamming the desk.
"THEN DO WE HAVE THE SOLUTION FOR YOU! INTRODUCING ENGLISH MAJOR HUMPING!"
"When you need to be EXTRA pedantic so as to make a thread even worse- just criticize a persons lack of grammatical skills!"
"GUARANTEED TO WORK!"
"Most people in casual convorsation online will not type with perfect english diction. Therefore you'll always have an opportunity to lord over people like the pretentious twat you are!"
"DERAIL THREADS EVEN FASTER!"
"Even if you can't find something immediately there's still room for you to make up stuff! Don't notice a period? Call it a run on sentence! Claim they should use a semicolon! NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THOSE ARE USED FOR!"
"TRY IT TODAY!"
"And if they call you out on it just keep calling them an idiot until you get them to shut up! Remember: it's not about winning. It's about screaming loud enough so that you appear smarter!"
>>47920727
>4e is still D&D
I'd like to agree with you man but trust me.
I've seen multiple threads where people argue without complete Irony that "4e is a good game! It's just not D&D"
and then failing to properly define what D&D is outside of "I know it when I see it"
>>47920766
Man there's a number of meme complains about 4E that come from people who only skim the book.
The one thing that gets me about DnD the most as I pretty much don't care about anything else.
The Wisdom stat.
What the fuck even is that stat? It's trying to be 4 seperate stats at the same time. And it's not even remotely closely related things like the umbrella stats of str, dex, con, int, cha. It's entirely unrelated things.
Wisdom is trying to be Wisdom, Sensory Capability, Faith and Willpower.
What the ever living fuck is going on that in the million years DnD has been around not one person a WoTC was thinking "Hang on a sec, this is the most inconceivably retarded and poorly thought out idea of all time past present and future in any reality."
I just don't understand.
>>47921363
Sacred cows anon.Also wisdom as a concept itself is pretty hard to distinguish from the usage of Intelligence as well
>>47921380
And that too...
Wisdom is an aspect of intelligence.
Just get rid of the shit heap of a stat already. Just add willpower. It makes more sense and is more useful to the system anyway.
>>47921444
Again anon.
Sacred cows.. it's too late to kill it at this point.
what the fuck is going on in this thread
I'm pretty sure it's worse than any alignment argument I've ever been in
DnD is like the Call of Duty of RPGs. It's everywhere, it's more expensive than the competition, there are great free/low-cost alternatives, yet somehow people refuse to try anything else.
And the people who stick with 3e/Pathfinder are forever lost.
>>47917012
>>47915837
Oh look its a pair of dumbasses on 4chan.
Some one screencap it so we have proof of these mythical special unicorns.
>>47911893
This actually hurts me.
>>47911893
This actually hurts me.
>>47915087
What the fuck, man...
>>47918528
It sounds to me that he's mad because D&D has dice and so it's not "narrative" ie, the heroes don't always get victory handed to them on a solver platter as a reward for circlejerking about how awesome they think they should be.
If you really hate D&D, but your players refuse to learn new systems, just houserule and modify your favorite (least hated) system of D&D into your own personal system. It only takes several hours of work for your players to inevitably complain and force even more work on your part!
>>47912073
Mogul Khan (and pretty much all DotA lore) is so goddamn cool.
>>47911798
I remember when this image got made. That was a great story time.
>>47920748
Well no, couldn't think of a way to make this topic worse. It was already nothing but shit before I posted.
>>47920766
I like to look at it this way:
4e is more demanding of the players in that it takes more creative thinking to imagine what happens when it uses the same system for martial and caster attacks. Since the flavor portion of the Fireball spell is part of it flavor text instead of its effect, many people will skip that part entirely, and all they see is "Area burst attack that deals 5d6 + INT mod fire damage". That's fairly crunchy and abstract in comparison to "You hurl a ball of fiery death that explodes for 20 feet in all directions, and creatures within the explosion must make Reflex saves..."
Other editions are more demanding of the DM because the large variation between different spell and attack options makes it almost impossible to know whether any given encounter will be challenging, a pushover or a TPK for a given party. It doesn't have the same risk of getting old quickly in the same way, but the DM has to know all of the party's options in order to plan anything ("Oh none of you have silvered or magical weapons? I guess these monsters will take no damage, after which they take control of your bodies.").
>>47926483
4e was good for DMs because the math was very tight and it was very easy to generate monsters within desired parameters and also design powers and tactics for them.
Both 3.PF and 5e have shit design when it comes to CR and how it stacks up against your players, and in general being way too much even within the same CR rank. To a degree there are some averages but it varies wildly and makes using anything by the book unreliable at best.
Plus there is no sanity to how defenses, HP and damage scaling works in either of those editions, unlike 4e, especially post-MM3 4e.
Over all its my favorite system to DM in.
>>47911636
Why did this need its own thread?
Couldn't you just paste this into a different thread to screencap yourself?
>>47911636
In one of the books from 3.5 they introduced two new optional stats: purity-corruption, and honor-disgrace. I traded these out for Good-evil and lawful-chaotic and it has made the alignments much clearer with little to no effect on deities or spells.
>>47921475
It's virtualoptim
Just ignore him.
>>47928814
>Just ignore him.
It was a lot easier when his tripcodes weren't permabanned.
I wanna read GURPS
give pdf please
>>47929168
holy shit the op is a literal pdf
thanks bro, downloading the mega already.
>>47929294
np senpai. Keep on keepin' on. Remember that GURPS is a toolkit and you're best served reading it like a collection of rules to choose from. GURPS Lite is a good first read.
>been gaming for
years and my group never touched d&d
>try 5e out for a couple of sessions
>every one has fun because we all get along and no one is a shit
>enjoy the experience and look forward to playing it again after our Call of Cthulhu game ends.
>>47911910
The absolute worst system isn't great to recommend to people unless you're being a dick.
>>47911893
You actually managed to play all of the things that manage to be a little worse than D&D.
Good job.
>>47912022
Sufficiently Advanced 2e does it pretty well imo. Tests are decided with a simple checklist of: Do I have a relevant stat high enough? Do I have a relevant skill? Do my character's core values relate to it in some way? Is this task simple for someone with my background/can I come up with a creative application of my skills to expedite it? If you can answer yes to 3 of these, you succeed.
Conflict is treated more like a betting game, where the two competing parties each work toward a stated goal. The character with better stats will always come out ahead unless the opponent can come up with creative upsets to net themselves an advantage, but in order to deny their opponent their goal, they may be forced to compromise on their own. Creates a neat dilemma that, in my experience, encourages players to use creativity and gauge whether they can win a fight before going into it, as well as whether it's worth wasting energy on a confrontation or not.
>>47929425
Understandable, because you were playing 5e.
>>47912126
You can fix the entirety of 3.5 in 2 pages, which requires you ti read for like 5 minutes. Those 5 minutes of sunk cost sure don't make me stay with DnD. What makes me stay is, that different characters actually, mechanically play differently, which is my biggest complain about stuff like GURPS. You're not translating your characters into mechanics, unless you write the system yourself, and at that point you can just play homebrew.
>>47921363
It might be called Intuition, and Int might be called Logic, that would clear things up.
>>47929595
Why are the other ones worse? We only played 5e and only picked it up because it was the latest out.
>>47912106
Except nope. Bad GMs and players are part of the problem with D&D.
Because it upbrings them. While yes, if you have a good GM and players it is rather likely that they can teach a new person to play right even on D&D, but if entire group, or most of it, is learning on D&D they are most likely to become shit players. Because of how D&D is in it's core and presentation. Going by "default" D&D playstyle encouraged by the books is shit, without a guiding hand players will embrace it and become shit.
Besides, generally nope. Most systems don't need so much effort to learn as D&D, and D&D has fuckton of issues that cannot be simply solved by homebrewing, because some of them are kind of hardcoded and other are hard to change without huge parts of the systems not making sense in new context.
Particulary:
>Awful setting. Or meta settting - as d&d has plenty of setting but thay all share a huge common part of fluff - general laws of physics and supernaural, types of monsters, alignmnents, planes, many many others. What's bad? D&D is taken as a system to emulate kitchen sink fantasy, and it isn't true, it fails at it, badly. Standard fantasy is not so full of gimmicky retarded shit and "wizard did it" attitude, has not shitton of super-special magical critters. Unless you take subgenre of fantasy that was basicaly spawned by d&d as standard fantasy, as opposed to all the classical source material. But for me, that's just another reason to not like d&d, because it has strong influence on modern fantasy (thankfully, mostly in gaming, though Hobbit movies sadly prove the cancer spreads all around) and this influence is almost universally negative.
>Combat centric attitude, which is even worse because combat is too detailed to takie it as an abstraction, yet too retarded to make any sense. I mean. 10 lvl fighter lierally can take an axe to the head from 1 lvl fighter and... it's just a scratch.
>>47929879
>Retarded animu/superhero power lvls that don't fit classical fantasy source material in a bit
>D&D is utterly inbalanced. And I don't even mean caster vs martial inbsalance, I'm adressing basic inequality of chatacter ideas. Let's picture three martial characters, a heavy armored konight, a shirtless, two-handed-axe-wielding berserker and a swift fencer with longsowrd, lichtenauer style - all of them based on archetypes, totally fitting "kitchen sink" fantasy, so within a system that tries to emulate that should be equal. All are allowed total optimization within the bounds of the concept. And what. And they WON'T be even close to equal.
Seriously, those flaws are basically unremovable. Or at least - it is way easier to pick another game than remove them. And D&D doesn't really have ANY virtues outside of populatity that would even them out. While there are plenty of games that don't have those disadvantages, while also having certain other strong points and not generating so much flaws on their own.
But you're right in one thing. Yes, D&D hate is political. Yes, those rants are motivated by petty self-interest. Because my "petty self-interest" means that I'd like the RPG community to be better and richer, and D&D monopoly ruins that. So I'll force the "D&D is bad" thing, even if the chances that it will ever have any effect are marginal, because in healthier community my possibilities of having good fun with the hobby are far better.
>>47929879
>>47929933
Your argument would probably be more convincing if you could string together a coherent sentence senpai.
Oh look. It's an entire thread of eternally triggered bitch-anons.
>>47929794
3.5 is over-complicated and rules heavy, in ways that 5e fixed, as well as being horribly unbalanced. 4e I haven't played, but I've looked into it, and It sacrificed a lot of what I liked and sought out in D&D.
5e managed to balance a lot of things without completely making classes lose their distinct flavor from each other, and simplified things in some ways that I gravitated to immediately, and some others that I wasn't sure abut at first glance, but ended up making things very fun in practice.
>>47912073
>>47912206
I played savage worlds, and dunno, it's an alright system but can't do boss encounters right
>>47929598
Do it then, faggot. Show us this magical fix.
>>47934285
Literally everything he said was gibberish, why even try to find this non-existent solution that probably focuses on combat.
>>47912129
>The mass brokenness of D&D becomes largely irrelevant when you don't ever use any of the broken shit
Good luck with that. You'll be starting by banning a big wedge of core classes, I assume?
>>47934358
Oh, I'm aware the nigga don't got shit.
But it's good to call faggots out on it.
I though by now people stopped trying to take these anti-D&D trolls seriously.
They're dumb argumentative faggots who will never stop shitposting. Just ignore them, don't rise to their bait, and don't try to reason with them. They've proven time and time again that they're really just bitter idiots, looking for an excuse to troll.
>>47911636
>REIGN
>>47934675
fuck off zoidburg
