>Hunters guild
>Thieves guild
>Assassins guild
>BANDITS guild
Oh man that last one actually happened. Never have I dropped a story so fast.
Do tell the Triads, the Mafia and the Yakuza that they are thematically and narratively inappropriate. They might poof out of existence.
>>47666894
Not the same thing and you know it. Now stop being contrarian for the sake of it.
>>47666844
>>BANDITS guild
We have them all over the land, attached to every major factory.it's called Unions
>>47666914
It's totally the same thing. It's an organization that picks up on people they think will excel in their trade and will teach that person how to do their work while making sure they become loyal and reliant on the guild to do their jobs effectively, ensuring the guild has a monopoly on that trade in the surrounding areas.
>>47666914
They are quite literally criminal syndicates. Just as Mages Guilds are usually scholarly associations, and lord knows those have NEVER existed.
>>47666993
The Yakuza today are even going half-over the line and step in when government justice doesn't work, to help their fellow man, sometimes. Like tattooed antiheroes.
>>47666914
Hey buddy I think you got the wrong board, the short bus board is >>>/b/
>>47666894
Are all of those legal organisations?
>>47666944
>He hates unions
How it feel getting dicked around by your corporate overlords?
>>47666844
Just because they call themselves a "Guild" doesn't mean that they're legal. And if they are, and the law is ignoring them, it's because they've corrupted that government, as organized crime often attempts and sometimes succeeds in doing. Not sure what particular issue you're complaining about.
>>47667270
>not admitting it depends on the union branch
>>47666844
>Setting has guilds dedicated to killing shit, magicing shit, and stealing shit
>Not a single guild dedicated to trading, let alone specialized skills like masonry or smithing
Hate it. Hate it every time it happens.
>>47667228
"Guilds" are nothing like real life guilds, ever
>>47667330
>every time it happens
I'm all ears.
>>47667330
I like to think those guilds always exist but are just not interesting enough for the PC's to ever interact with.
>>47667356
Just something I've had happen to be a few times while playing. No crazy storytime or anything. Think most of it comes from Oblivion/Skyrim where those three are used as a form of questgivers.
>>47667371
Problem is when you're a player who loves getting involved with that kind of stuff it sucks.
>>47666844
could be a legit guild to keep the crime rate down and the city keeps its quota of banditry
can't have just anybody just turning to petty crime
the guild makes sure amateurs are dealt with
>>47667270
>Implying he has a job
>>47666844
colloquially, a guild is just a group/organisation isn't it? I don't see how any of those wouldn't work in this case
>>47666844
>PBR
>>47667578
Shut up Vetinari, you're lucky you're so damn good at your job
>>47667469
>Think most of it comes from Oblivion/Skyrim where those three are used as a form of questgivers.
I hear ya, although in a video game like Skyrim, even if it's extensive, it's got to cut corners somewhere, and so they focus more on the quest-givers that play into the more "adventurous" play than you would find in an artist's guild, or a vegetable-seller's guild.
>>47666894
You're an idiot. Those are criminal organizations. OP has legitimized organizations.
>>47666914
This
>>47668004
>OP has legitimized organizations.
Where, and when?
>>47666844
>implying a gang or whatever crimincal organization just can't call itself a guild because they like the sound of it
>>47666844
>Hunters guild
Doesn't seem that far out there assuming an actual medieval guild society, since they had guilds for every profession under the sun who wanted to protect their interests.
>Thieves guild
>Assassins guild
All depends on the rulers, culture and nature of said guilds. Look to the Thieves Guild of Lankhmar (the prototypical one that everyone else steals from) or the Assassins of Morrowind's Morag Tong.
>Bandits guild
Barbary Corsairs were basically that in real life.
A local lord having bandits who target outsider assets without an overt connection to himself isn't exactly a new idea.
>>47666944
owned, capitalist
>>47667322
Dohohoho
The correct answer is,
[spoilers]>You're both right[/spoilers]
>>47667050
>today
Japanese government developed out of organized crime structures. It's only today that people sometimes forget about this connection.
>>47670059
Well, it's understandable oversight, considering that in this time and age it's usually the other way around.
>Not having The Third Civil War of Nefarious Personages
>Not having the Bandits' Goods Exchange siding with the Right Thuggish Doorkeeps against the Order of Highwaymen and Improper Tolltakers
Do you even civil war strife?
>>47670096
>the other way around
The government steps in to help their fellow man like tattoed antiheros when organized crime justice doesn't work?
Seriously though, the Japanese and the Italians both have a very.... benevolent? Philosophical bent to their organized crime that isn't really matched in other countries.
>>47666844
>BANDITS guild lol so dum
You sound like you live in a small world devoid of history or borders and like you do it in the most unimaginative way possible.
>>47667228
I think the Triads are in Taiwan. Something to do with one of the presidents being a member of one.
>>47669206
>Doesn't seem that far out there assuming an actual medieval guild society, since they had guilds for every profession under the sun who wanted to protect their interests.
Afaik there's never been a a Hunter's Guild for the simple reason that it was common (ie. there is no real hunter profession, rather it's something people do as a side-job) or the land is owned by a lord anyway, making hunting there illegal.
>>47670427
Although now I think of it, Gameskeepers were a thing. But I've never heard of anything like a Gameskeeper's Guild.
>>47666844
>Hunters Guild
M80 even today you get gentelman's clubs and hunter societies. I have no problem believing you'll find an analogue in a fantasy setting. A group of rich, well-equipped weirdos looking to bag the freakiest monster they can find sounds awesome, really. And "Huntsman's Guild" sounds exactly like the kind of thing a bunch of eccentric rich monster hunters would call themselves.
A "bandit guild" is just a group of bandits. Stop acting so silly.
I'm not a fan of Thieves Guilds or Assassin Guilds though. At least not how they're usually presented. Especially Thieves' Guilds.
Guan Yu is the patron of Triads, Police, and Business.
>>47670541
Wasn't it bean curd?
>>47667343
Don't call them guilds then.
When is it appropriate to begin talking about Companies (like the East Indian Company) instead of Guilds?
>>47667330
This problem is nothing new. It was prominent enough for a joke in Colour of Magic, way back when.
Hunter's Guild is perfectly okay.
Thieve's guilds has always been odd to me, there's no way they could exist in say a city and not be found when a major populace also lives there, they have to be nomadic or solitary for a guild to even remain a secret.
Assassins and Bandits guilds though is some serious middle-school laziness. Sounds like what one of my mates is writing up for his edgy as fuck campaign.
You did the right thing OP.
>>47670499
Bandits could have guilds.
Individual bandit groups would join and their leaders would form guild council.
They would discuss things such as new techniques in avoiding law enforcement and settle territory disputes.
>>47670427
>>47670480
Guilds were basically an urban phenomenon and mostly covered jobs related to the manufacture and selling of products.
>>47670633
Pretty sure they're not related at all. The only common point is that they legally have the monopoly over something in a specific area.
>>47670696
Yeah I know, but hasn't most of this thread been pointing out that there have been videogame-esque guild analogues in real life organisations, like the previously mentioned mafia? All I'm saying is that a hunter's guild doesn't even that. Either a society is a hunter-gatherer one, in which everyone hunts or nobody does it (as a profession).
>>47666844
>pbr
absolutely worst, bottom of the barrel, choke yourself on a dick tasteit aint even that cheap
>>47670860
There's no reason a guild has to deal with people's primary profession. I imagine most assassins, for example, would have their regular "day jobs" as their primary profession, and the same with bandits.
No one is saying that fantasy guilds need to adhere too closely to historical guilds from medieval Europe.
What about state sponsored banditry against a rival kingdom? Essentially privateering on land. With or without overt action, deniability, and letters of marque.
>>47670655
A thieves guild could be a popular nickname for a loose affiliation of crime families. I'm sure they could call it other things.
>>47670655
Do you even Fida'yin infidel?
>>47667270
>>47667322
Most of the things unions fought for are required by federal law these days. Occasionally they need to come in to help their members with legitimate issues, but mostly they exist to bully business owners on behalf of the more lazy workers. I guess you have to do something while waiting for corporate fat-cats to infringe on stuff.
>>47670931
Historically assassins did their job by becoming close to the target, this could take years in some cases. Either that or religious fanatics like the Hashashin who were fine with killing their target even in a crowded area, because they'd die anyway. And bandits would not be welcome in society, the stereotype of them being on roads and shit targeting travellers existed because of the fact they could only do their job outside of towns. So yes, it IS their full-time job. This isn't to say though that anyone is first an assassin or bandit or that they don't stop becoming one after a while.
Though yes I agree with you that guilds are fine as they are in games, as a place to give quests and non-hostile NPCs for each class, as long as they're not presented as historical.
>>47667716
Fuck you man he's a veteran he can drink whatever he wants.
>>47670280
It doesn't help that they abandon those ideals when operating in other countries.
>>47670683
That's more of an umbrella organization than a guild. A guild denotes the idea of some legal precedent. Are they paying taxes to the king whose tax collectors they rob?
>>47670111
this is good, i like this
>>47667228
Have you ever considered that the "Thieves Guild" isn't a Legal guild? That they just call themselves a guild for both respect, and because they act like a guild?
>>47670885
When you start making money you realize that all beer isn't that far off in price so you can pay a bit more for something with flavor. And if you're just trying to get drunk without flavor you can buy fucking liquor.
>>47671142
There are plenty of unofficial ways that organized crime and government can interact.
>>47671070
>Historically assassins
>followed by anything
Assassination is a very wide category of activity that spans so much time and geography I don't really think you can make true general statements about what assassins did or did not do beyond offer to kill human targets for some kind of reward.
>And bandits would not be welcome in society
And that's why you don't fucking TELL people you are a bandit. When times are bad, some men turned to banditry as a side deal. The closest thing to becoming a full-time bandit would be farmers or other professions where there is a pronounced off-season.
>>47666894
You... you know that isn't even close to what OP is talking about right?
>adventurers guild
>in exchange for a cut of the profits, they will pay to relocate your family when you cross a BBEF and they will come to your legal defense when you are inevitably arrested.
>the guild has pushed through major legal reforms in most countries, including trials and innocent until proven guilty.
>>47671126
Just like soldiers from an attacking country aren't beholden to expend men, supplies, and time to protect you from attackers and aid you in times of disaster, organized crime from other countries would have no reason to compromise power or profits in order to support the common man in some foreign country.
I honestly don't know why you would expect them to. As if Robin Hood would believe fervently in supporting the rightful king of France while there.
Of course there's a Thief's Guild. You can just go around hiring any unaccredited hobbit recommended by a wizard when you need some burglary done. You might end up with an amateur.
>>47671255
It's mostly a don't shit where you eat principle.
>>47671405
*can't
Other way around kind of undermines my point.
>>47671446
You honestly think that all bandits live in their secret bandit hideouts and don't interact with society with their "normal citizen" faces on?
Honestly, sneaking through the King's forest to do minor banditry on the highway on the other side is plenty of safety buffer for this sort of thing.
In summertime, the land is fat and you can live off it to some degree; in winter, you pretty much have to go to a town or some other normal human habitation. "Secret ninja villages" were extremely rare to the point of not existing even in Japan, from where the trope currently identifies the most strongly.
An organised crime group cannot exist without an extensive peripheral network. In that peripheral network, that would involve the bankers, the politicians, the policemen, basically the portals into the licit world that protect the core and organised crime group which revolves around business activity.
My only real gripe with these kinds of organizations is that no one ever names them something cooler than "[Name of criminal activity] Guild".
>>47670590
Wait, is it too unreasonable for a criminal organisation in a world with guilds for every realistic and a good number of unrealistic crafts to call itself a guild, too?
>>47671604
You're the kind of asshole that thinks every DMV should have a special name, aren't you?
>>47666844
A Hunter's Guild is perfectly sound. It'd serve as a way to regulate and coordinate hunts for rare and dangerous game, track yields, prevent overhunting of game in a given area, and provide grounds for the apprehension of poachers.
Assassins also make some degree of sense, assuming a setting/culture that has ritualized combat or political killing. Consider the Morag Tong in Morrowind.
Thieves and bandits having guilds is retarded, though. Organized crime doesn't structure itself like a business; it structures itself like a clan.
>>47671910
>Organized crime doesn't structure itself like a business; it structures itself like a clan.
I can't even begin to unravel how wrong this sentence is to find a mutually acceptable point to explain it to you.
I mean, are you forgetting how many historical businesses were in fact clans? Or are you just pushing modern perceptions of how a business is run onto period fantasy for no reason?
>>47671910
the guild structure represents a form of organization and control, there was a form of legality for this, but it also existed at a time when there wasn't a unified form of legality.
Now we'd use the term 'cartell', but an organization calling it selves the 'thieves guild', because it shares the general structure of the other guilds, but without the official legal backing, isn't that weird.
Bandits on the other hand, makes no damn sense, because bandits by nature are more mobile,disorganized,and not concentrated in population centers. Those things are more essential to the 'guid' structure than the legal recognition.
>>47667974
it's also a comedy setting where 'the place that the sun don't shine' is a geographical location. There is a stripper named 'brocoli', pork futures exist as butchers pigs moving backwards in time, etc etc.
Logic works a little funny there.
>>47671997
>Bandits on the other hand, makes no damn sense, because bandits by nature are more mobile,disorganized,and not concentrated in population centers. Those things are more essential to the 'guid' structure than the legal recognition.
It could be legally sanctioned banditry like a letter of marque and the guild is some bureaucratic middle man.
>>47671997
>bandits by nature are more mobile,disorganized,and not concentrated in population centers
Bandits operate in territory, and a city will be surrounded by several bandits' territory. I see no reason why a bandit leader wouldn't have a guild council seat for every city affected by his territory.
>all these people putting organized crime in a good light
Christ how depressing
Bandits are more or less like mercenaries. I've never heard of mercenary guild.
>>47672097
There's no good light or bad light about it anon, just facts. Governments also do bad and good things, seeking to exert control to maintain itself as/along with some sort of status quo, but talking about them isn't some sort of sinister plan to make them look absolutely good or evil.
At least, it shouldn't be. You don't do that, do you?
>ctrl+f discworld
>no results
Why do I even come here. Thread about guilds and Sir Pratchett isn't even mentioned.
>>47672148
Try actually reading the thread, retard. Or at least improve your search-fu.
>>47672083
>bandits operate in territory
a fairly broad territory, and they can move to new ones.
Bandits don't have the ability to police an area to make sure no one else is being bandits.
You could get something like the pirate 'councils' but those are MUCH loser organizations. The 'guild' anology starts breaking down.
>>47672083
>>47672175
Banditry is also more opportunistic than a long term organisation.
>>47672055
letters of marque worked in part because of how unregulated the areas they operated were.
The legality isn't the issue. As I tried to point out the 'thieves guild' might have no legal recognition whatsoever. It's. guild because it uses the guild structure of self regulation and control.
Banditry and piratry work based on lose structures, they aren't guild like in nature, no matter there legality.
>>47672175
>bandits never get in conflicts over territory
>bandits never try to beat out or absorb competition and increase their share of the finite spoils of banditry in an area
First of all-
>The 'guild' anology starts breaking down.
Okay, fair enough. Let's start with your position on what are the essential aspects of a guild, and why. Would prefer arguments revealing the internal logic of the position rather than a stark list of traits.
>>47672273
monopolistic control over. particular activity in existing unified geographical areas.
Bandits getting into conflict over territory is what makes them NOT guild like. There is one printers guild in a city, and they keep out everyone else, but the next city city might have it's own guild. Those guild might be linked, they might break away, but within the region there is one guild.
guilds are long term stable organizations. While bandits might try to beat out competition and increase there share, they are opertunitistic as another anon pointed out. They shift to much to establish themselves. When they become established, they stop being bandits and become warlords. Which is a different thing.
>>47672419
But what if it's a stationary bandit rather than a roaming one? Isn't that, afterall, how many but not allgovernmentsstart?
>>47672105
>Bandits are more or less like mercenaries. I've never heard of mercenary guild.
Ever hear of Blackwater?
>>47672482
They usually transition away from banditry as they become established.
>>47672482
that's a warlord, which I just mentioned. They create a zone of governance, rather than existing within one.
Guilds are stable structures within city, or region, they are defined by their territory, rather than defining them.
>>47666844
>>Thieves guild
>>BANDITS guild
if you're going to have crime, it might as well be organized crime.
>>47672105
>I've never heard of mercenary guild.
French Foreign Legion is essentially that.
>>47672419
>unified geographical areas
Does this mean that a "guild" that oversees all of a particular province except one particular city isn't a guild, but something else? Would you accept that it is a guild, but that there are dissenting factions within it threatening their monopoly?
What prevents bandits from forming guilds? Is it not useful for them to have a forum for the bigger factions to dictate policy to the smaller and for the smaller to petition the larger for the common guild good? If a city with a printer's guild has some minor unsanctioned printing going on, either by guild members moonlighting or by nonmembers, have they then broken the guild? Or would you say that the guild is simply experiencing an imperfect monopoly?
There is a spectrum of organisation on which bandit groups can exist. What prevents a more organized bandit group, or more likely an association of such groups, from existing long-term? What prevents a guild from being opportunistic? Do you think a hall is required to have a guild, or why would forming a guild would necessarily transition bandit leaders to warlords?
Will post soon outlining my thoughts on what makes a guild.
>>47672215
>letters of marque worked in part because of how unregulated the areas they operated were.
Coastal New England was hardly a lawless den of thieves. You don't need to be lawless barbarians to use piracy and banditry to fill your own pockets, you just need cognitive dissonance and an official looking stamp. A bandit guild could just be a sanctioned group of thugs and assholes for hire. Rich assholes could fund a bandit lord through the guild to go steal as much shit as possible for X number of years.
>>47672492
I'm pretty sure they were being sarcastic, and making fun of people who think that bandit companies/guilds are too impossible to entertain seriously.
>>47672640
Wouldn't they just be mercenaries at that point?
>>47672640
The New world coast were certainly a lawless den of thieves and villainy. New England piracy was an extension of the Caribbean piracy, and that basically defines 'lawless den of scum and villany'.
The trade system extended back to Europe, so the American cost was all pretty much local in terms of naval operation.
>just thugs for hire
then they're just using the word with no guild structure.
Where 'thieves guilds' work in fiction, they operate like guilds. Masters, journeymen, training, etc etc.
>>47672705
Kind of splitting hairs, but mercenary sort of implies a military commitment. These guys would just be dickheads looking to knock over targets with the best risk/reward ratio, strong arming isolated villages, setting up bullshit tolls, and other bandit stuff.
>>47670280
>Seriously though, the Japanese and the Italians both have a very.... benevolent? Philosophical bent to their organized crime that isn't really matched in other countries.
Largely because of the clientism/patrimonialism inherent in both of their respective nations. Crime families are quite literally families to them, because familylocal community is the most powerful social identifier for people in those nations ("There is no Italy," for example). Crime families are just an illegitimate extension of this same type of power structure, because that's the power structure that best delivers resources to their respective groups.
In most other (Western) nations, criminal organizations work much more efficiently as businesses rather than familial organizations, in part because of their ability to adapt and "detach" from their own members when necessary, and have greater inclusiveness/upward mobility in their ranks due to the (less) personal nature of their power structure.
>>47672742
Seems like it would be difficult to support long term for an organisation to spring up specifically to support it.
>>47672721
>then they're just using the word with no guild structure.
>Where 'thieves guilds' work in fiction, they operate like guilds. Masters, journeymen, training, etc etc.
Then they'd have those attributes. Fuck, man. It's fiction, they can operate however you'd like.
A fictional sanctioned Bandit Guild could conceivably feature ranks, certifications, treasurers, and leadership. All that is just about skill certification, money management, and representation. That and banditry aren't mutually exclusive. It would just make them unusually well organized thugs.
>>47672781
As long as there's a demand for their services and it's profitable it could happen. A seemingly unending war like the 100 Years War would do the trick, or a constant state of low level conflict between feudal lords or city states.
>>47672867
Usually you can have soldiers fulfill the same roles pretty easily and is where most bandits would come from anyway.
>>47672913
Plausible deniability, cost of training and arming soldiers, an entrenched warrior class that doesn't want to do bandity stuff. Weird shit happens all the time in history for stupid reasons.
>>47672951
Maybe, but it still seems like a bit of a stretch when other options exist and are easier.
>>47672999
You'd have to work pretty hard to map out the series of historical events that lead you there, but you could do it. Make sure you read all the excruciating details to your players so they know how much you've thought about this, then have them go fight a hydra and never mention it again. When they come to the next city and see the Guild of Hermits they'll know not to ask any questions.
>>47666844
>Not playing in a land where the government is okay with every sort of guild as long as they agree to some regulations and pay their taxes
Assassins guilds help to shake up monopolies established in a free market, and the bandits guild is really just the fantasy IRS. The thieves guild offers protection plans in the city to prevent thievery from members of the guild, most of their money actually comes from tourists and nobles who don't care to pay the fee.
>>47671997
Assuming the bandits are actually farmers or other rural poor who use banditry to survive lean times of the year then a bandits guild makes more sense as it would regulate their activities to keep them from driving travelers to different routes or bringing down the law to stamp them out. Granted, it'd be more of an association.
>>47673195
I doubt they'd give a shit about regulations if they're robbing travellers to survive.
>>47673216
You'd give a shit once those travelers start avoiding your roads or the powers-that-be send people out to start executing bandits.
>>47667228
Very often in practice and only rarely on paper. Yes.
>>47673313
They'd do that anyway, people aren't going to put up with thieves and murderers.
>>47673195
>>47673216
you're going through a lot of effort here, and even then, that's doesn't sound like a guild structure.
Can't you just admit that 'bandit's guild' is a silly idea that doesn't work if the word guild means anything more than group?
Some concepts don't fit together, bandits and guild are among those.
>>47673407
Historical bandits were often organized groups with a clear power structure.
>>47673445
but not a guild like power structure.
>>47673506
Define a guild-like power structure.
>>47673407
There's no reason why banditry can't be organized around a guild given a sufficiently improbable course of events.
It's like saying that a prostitute working in a brothel becoming an empress is magical realm wank because it's so amazingly improbable, but that shit totally happened. Honestly, you lack imagination.
>>47673534
master, apprentice, journeymen,
control maintains access to skills, tools, and customers. (guilds are economic entities).
Part of, and worked with, a larger existing economic structure
violence could be used to suppress competition in their given area, but interactions with other factors were economic and political in nature.
Or look up the goddamn history of Guilds, you bothered learning about historical bandit groups. The concept of 'guild' was pretty damn well defined for a long period of time, and bandits didn't fucking act like them.
>>47673571
okay, but it's extremely improbable, far far more so than a thieves or assassins guild.
>>47667978
>Wouldn't quest to dangerous terrain to obtain rare but delectable plant life and spices.
>Wouldn't do battle with another conglomerate for mineral rights just so some art-fag could paint the shade of blue behind you righteously.
Son, I am disappointed. All things are quests, if told well; the fact that, historically, spice and paint instigated a shit load of wars should be proof enough that food and art are SERIOUS BUSINESS.
>>47672630
That was some good dinner. Anyway, here's the list of arguments for what makes a guild to me.
>The Membership and Oversight Argument
A guild is a group concerned with all practice of a particular profession in a given region, and may present a united representative front for things like negotiation or deliberation. Inducted members are known and/or verifiable and follow guild rules and non-members are not allowed to practice said profession. Guild rules may include prices, methods, rules of engagement, and other standards. Breaking rules results in guild censure.
>The Secret Knowledge Argument
A guild must have something to protect with regard to the relevant profession beyond mere territory. Maneuvers, recipes and designs, prime locations, trade schedules, contacts (allies, informants, customers, etc.), and the like.
>The Progression and Spoils Argument
A guild must have a system of ranks where reaching a given degree of competency and paying your guild dues (whatever form that may take) will progress you to the next rank and afford you more privileges within the guild, including whatever rewards are generated. This system of ranks will take into account the different kinds of specialization that guild work requires, and how much of each is required.
Honestly I think that's it. You don't need a physical building, a special handshake, or to last a hundred years (you only need to intend to last) to be a guild. Opportunism and regulation coexist as a matter of course, one exists because of the other.
Are you able to answer the questions I posed in >>47672630? It might go a long way to helping me understand your stance on this whole thing.
>>47666844
>Hunters Guild
Basically concerned with making sure hunting is done with enough moderation for populations to replenish. Can't be a hunter if, oops daisy, all the local animals have been hunted to extinction.
>Thieves guild
Basically the mafia.
>Assassins guildAre actually a front for the kingdom's intelligence organization.
>Bandits guild
rose in response to the thieves guild. Bandits operate outside the big cities and are trying to push their influence in. Thieves guild is centered in cities and trying to expand out. The turf wars get brutal.
>>47674361
>Are actually a front for the kingdom's intelligence organization.
Oh, I like this.
>>47674171
well now you're getting into the nitty gritty that goes with the time period there.
You might have it be that Gustov August rules all of Saxony, but Birmingham (I'm fucking up the geography and making it up, sue me) is an independent city, even though it is contained within Saxony.
Saxony is still a unified. political area, even though it has the hole for the city of Birmingham.
And to go with this, Bandit Groups are more like mercenary companies, they might stay someplace for a while, by tthey can leave.
Or they would be mobile within their territory, which makes it hard for them to be hunted down, but that also makes it hard for them to be organized.
Now I'm willing to concede, that in a very extreme and unusual case, bandits could come to be organized into a guild like system. But that case would be extremely unusual.
It would require things to be stable enough that they could create a more formalized progression system, and establish and enforce an oversight and membership systems in there area, but not stable enough that become the defacto military of the local governance.
Beyond that, bandits aren't really engaged with the surrounding economy in a guild fashion. Thieves guilds are a little outside the lines there too, but the 'gray economy' is still an economy. Thieves guilds start bending the line pretty far, by the time you get to bandits, it's not even a line anymore.
>>47673749
If you're going to get prissy about historical terms, you'll have to scrap like 70% of all tabletop universes. It's especially true for fantasy, where "fantasy guilds" are Its own thing
Bandit groups also had basic power structures and It can be easily compared to the master, apprentice, journeymen titles. Yakuza has all the qualities you just listed. Hierarchy, influence in economy, skill/tool/customer control, were likely to use both politics and violence.
Look how early gangs of America worked.
If you can't emulate anything similar in a goddamn tabletop, yer an idiot.
>>47674383
If political unity is all you meant then honestly i don't think being unified is all that important to mention, if it's even true. If an unsanctioned guild (I hope we have passed the point where we are arguing if an organization can call itself a guild if it isn't directly endorsed by the government) were to say "we control all of West Germany, everything on this side of the wall" then I don't think that disqualifies them from guild status.
>they might stay someplace for a while, but they can leave
I don't agree with this. According to the Secret Knowledge Argument, their competitive advantage lies in their territory: contacts, ambush locations, suppliers. If they leave, they lose these advantages and really are just armed men as you said.
>they would be mobile within their territory, which... makes it hard for them to be organized
In what way? They can still call meetings, conduct business, etc. What specific element of organization would become difficult?
>in a very extreme and unusual case
Most disruptive historical pressures are similarly extreme and unusual, are they not? The conditions needed to create WWI, the formation of the Hanseatic League, the First Roman Triumvirate, or any interesting historical scenario sound like bad fiction taken out of context.
Stability of some sort is required, yes, but sometimes harsh conditions can create a stability of their own. Compartmentalization and crystallization of tasks and know-how due to necessity, not intent. Attrition conditions, corruption of necessity, really very little would be required to make banditry and racketeering extremely viable, even key to the balance of a city or region. Often a city has more needs than a formal military can or will address.
As far as engaging the surrounding economy, I think I've made it pretty clear that they would be: doing work, allocating resources within the guild, self-policing, and providing benefit to certain parties in exchange for lucre.
>>47672419
>Bandits getting into conflict over territory is what makes them NOT guild like.
I think they were saying that getting into conflicts over territory would be one of the inciting pressures to form a guild. Run ins with other bandits, or waiting for a caravan that never arrives because it has been robbed nearer the city, or selecting a sub-optimal and therefore riskier location to attack the caravan in hopes of beating out your competition; all of these things are costly. I'm sure bandits would rather have a more reliable if less lucrative time of it.
>>47671039
Thieves guild = joke name for lawyers
>>47667330
>masons guild
>it's ALWAYS a shadowy conspiracy
Why can't we ever have dudes that just build thing.
>>47675009
Building the new world order is a more important task.
>>47666844
Honestly if we were in a game together and you got angry over something as trivial as that I'd be glad to see you go.
>>47666844
>Hunters guild
Nothing wrong with it
>Thieves guild
>Assassins guild
>BANDITS guild
Should be renamed to syndicate or some shit.
However
>adventurers guild
Pure weebshit, that should be purged. You need a fucking setting revolving around it to just justify the existence of one. You want mercs? Go with normal mercs, that are hired to kill other people, not a group of fucking d&d adventurers who kill infinite camps of goblins and have shounen rank system.
>>47666844
>Feudalistic setting
>Every king has a standing army.
>>47673749
>you have to make a top noch wagon assault to become a master bandit.
>guild representatives will check if you and your boys rape the kids and the women with the proper violence.
>>47675214
>feudalistic setting
>nations have defined borders
>>47675243
Rivers and mountains are usually set on stone borders.
>new campaign
>someone invited a weirdo he barely knew from university
>first session we get into major city
>hear roumors about a crimknal organization
>everyone in town calls them 'thieves guild'
>weirdo start mumbling
>m-muh that...no se-sense
>packs his stuff and leaves
Kek
>>47675243
>nations
>>47667330
My setting has banks that are increasingly powerful the larger the city is and the guilds have a love-hate relationship. Guys like the smithing or carpenters/Mason's guild get along great, traders/caravan guilds hate the banks because of their control on the money flow. I actually did a lot of research on medieval economies in large v.s small towns and blended it with a few modern or Renaissance trends due to the dwarves and their highly advanced cultural affinity towards money.
Of course, the biggest banks are run by the gnomes, they use the dwarves as a face cause nobody thinks a gnome could be a money lord.
I'm playing my first ever tabletop game and went thief since we had a druid and cleric all ready. im basicall a drug addict who's only goal is obtain money, at least at first. local criminal gang wont deal with me since im not an elf, so ive been thinking, given enough time and connections, maybe i dismantle them and start up a guild of thieves since i can do that at level 9 or so (currently level 4). Elf gang exists in countries capital, setting seems fairly standard fantasy, DM was kinda proud that its the first fully formed story hes done in a while.
Whats wrong with a thieves guild exactly? I'm thinking "thieves" in a very broad sense. extortion and making sure those outside the guild dont cause trouble, only members who pa a cut to the guild. cities corrupt all ready, guards are easily bribed and even easier to avoid, stole ones bastard sword on my way in and no one ever caught on. system of underground sewers where the homeless live, thinking of making those kind of "guild halls" so if one group gets busted, 3 more can go make an example of the men who defied the guild. intend to essentially have the guards on my payroll anyway...somehow.
DM said it can be done, but would be hard. Is this a fucking stupid idea or am i doing okay as far as my thought process goes? Its all very new to me. Currently just trying to find criminal contacts, do odd jobs, and assist these faggot wizards who are in the party since they help me out as well. I know itll be a long process, but man, fuck those elves.
>>47671197
>When times are bad, some men turned to banditry as a side deal
I can think of two asian countries that did banditry as a full time proffession. India had a religeous sect that badically had bandit families and japan, being a shitty tiny island, made it so if you fucked up hard and didnt want punishment banditry was the only option because your face would be easily recognised.
>>47675491
No.
What if instead of an Adventurer's Guild, you split it into a Mercenary's Guild and an Explorer's Guild?
>>47675535
Yes, but since banditry being a full time profession was being used as the reason why bandit guilds were not possible, ALL banditry would have to be practiced full time in order to support this assertion, not just some isolated incidents.
>>47675535
Well, I feel like we should distinguish between banditry as an activity and living as an outlaw. While these were historically related, even forming the origin of the word bandit, you can practice banditry (essentially highway robbery and the like) without living as an outlaw.
As for the Japan example, yes, if you were already known guilty of major crimes you'd have to live as an outlaw. But it's worthwhile to note that this could cause banditry, but was not necessarily the result of being a bandit. The Japanese were clued in to this cool technology called masks, which let you do stuff without people seeing your face - unless you are unmasked, which generally means you have fucked up as a bandit and may have been captured or worse.
>>47666844
>taking shit this seriously
>>47666844
>dropped a story
>not a game
This is /tg/, bub. >>>/lit/'s over there, though they'll throw you out too. Phrase yourself more carefully next time.
>>47666844
Yeah, one time some asshole had a fucking PIRATE QUEEN and tried to play it off as realistic.
I get that women are capable, but in those bad old days? I mean, can you imagine a woman working her way into the leadership position of the various pirate groups in a region? Talk about middle-school fanfiction.
>>47680853
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_Shih
>led over 1,500 vessels and 180,000 pirates in her Red Flag fleet
>more than quadrupled her initial fleet to dominate the South China Sea
>issued a code of laws to all pirates that made her the ultimate authority
>undefeated by British, Portuguese, or Imperial Chinese navies, all of which tried for years
>finally they give up and offered her amnesty for all her crimes
>retired alive and well, opened a lucrative gambling house, and dies peacefully at 69 years of age
Learn some history you stupid fuck.
>>47674536
>Most disruptive historical pressures are similarly extreme and unusual, are they not? The conditions needed to create WWI, the formation of the Hanseatic League, the First Roman Triumvirate,
but that sounds more like 'what the setting is about' than a small element of the setting.
If you want to set it up that there is a bandit guild, and have it make any sort of sense, you need to put a fair bit of setup into it, and now it's a pretty big part of your setting.
A thieves guild or assassins guild slots pretty easily into 'urban setting with guilds and crime'.
>>47670280
>Seriously though, the Japanese and the Italians both have a very.... benevolent? Philosophical bent to their organized crime that isn't really matched in other countries.
No, they just have a basic concept of how PR works.
>>47682133
Big deals like "this major set of socio--economic-political cirumstances defines my setting and why it's fun to play in" are gonna manifest in all sorts of ways, from power structures, to military tactics, to technology.
I mean, there are already established historical genres with bandit guilds, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
>>47682285
I'm saying the two (thieves guild an bandits guild) aren't comparable in how you use them in a setting.
You can throw thieves guild into a fair number of settings, without too much thought into it, a bandits guild is something that requires a lot more set up. One can be a minor thing, the other will have big effects or be the result of big things.
If it sounds like I'm moving the goal post, I'm not, because I'll admit I've been partly convinced. Bandit guilds aren't completely out there and nonsense, however they a far more radical development than a thieves guild.
If it's actually a bandits guild, not just the local warlord, or another name for the local crime syndicate, than that defines the setting in a vary real way, that just having a thieves guild does not.
>>47682247
You think organized crime in other countries don't understand how PR works? Acting on that understanding is a different matter.
>>47682460
I feel like a thieves' guild is just a more established idea where it's acceptable to be a bit lazy. I mean, what we're really dealing with here is the credulity of your audience, not how much behind the scenes stuff that never gets mentioned has a verifiable cause-and-effect relationship with the things that the players interact with.
I mean, a thieves' guild is primarily a fiction thing to begin with, and the reason they didn't pop up everywhere was similar to some arguments we've heard in the thread against bandits guilds; namely, that while possible there simply isn't a strong enough impetus for their creation. Too many power centers have fingers in that pot to consolidate the monopoly, difficult to enforce a monopoly from the shadows without unrealistic amounts of presence, and thieving carries on just fine when working alone.
At some point you've gotta just accept that things are the way they are described. If the setting has a king >well, there are a specific set of circumstances that tend to be present for the creation of a monarchy-
NO. If you don't pique people's interest about it, no one worthwhile will raise a serious stink over it. If you do manage to work in a way to reveal the clever underpinnings of your setting during play, bonus. I mean if it's more an issue of "that seems like more work than it's worth", fine.
In general though I'll agree with you that a bandits' guild has more conditions that need to be checked before it makes sense to have it spontaneously evolve. Then again, as it has been argues guilds are long-lived institutions. There's no reason the initial conditions need to be relevant at all if it's 180 years later and the guild continues to exist mostly on inertia. The conditions required for the dissolution of a guild system are more involved than the simple lack of the conditions that created it.
>>47682744
Take a thieves' guild. They might come into existence because of the emergence of a dominant, prolific thief who liked training protogées combined with a town guard that implemented frequent new schemes for catching thieves. So the monopoly forms naturally, and uniting to share information about a common and changeable enemy makes sense. So fast forward a bit, and these days the guild has separated into several stable and fairly balanced factions, and the town guard has come to accept certain levels of thievery and even co-benefit from it in various ways. The guild just suddenly disband because the original conditions aren't there, nor are those 200-year-old conditions likely to impact play much (probably).
>>47674383
>but not stable enough that become the defacto military of the local governance
What if they just don't want to do all that military stuff. Robbery is a cushy gig compared to having to do military-type actions for the government. I also think that not all bandits are cut out to be mercenaries, and that would probably be especially true for the most successful bandits.
>>47675009
When you build stuff sooner or later someone gonna ask you to build secret hideout or something. And then your guild has (a) huge amount of experience in building this shit and (b) knowledge of everything you built in the city. It's quite possible that only massons know all the hidden doors and tunnels of some old castle.
>>47682481
That doesn't mean the Japanese/Italian crime organizations are more benevolent, it just means that they're smarter about getting people to like them. My point was that they're not doing it to be good people, they're doing it to make other people think "Oh, I guess those guys aren't so bad after all."
>>47668004
The Yakuza hold lands, have deeds, run companies, act as investors, and fund lobbyists. The Triad has entire neighborhoods with their names on them and the national government has to send officials to them. Criminal organizations can also be legitimate organizations, you dumb cunt.
>>47670860
>Safari Club International
That's not even the only one, either.
>>47671039
Not a guild. It was closer to be a mix between a monastical order and a terrorist group. It then evolved and started selling itself.
>>47666844
You're such a flaming faggot op-kun, holy shit.
You know pirates right? Famous marauders of the sea during colonial day? Yeah, good chunk of them were privateers, hired by national governments to fuck over the shipping of OTHER governments.
So back to the point, there is NO reason you can't have the above mentioned guilds in your setting. The only caveat is if your DM doesn't suck cock and actually plays them as privateers.
>>47684309
The thing is that "Thieves Guilds" are almost called "Thieves Guilds" and that doesn't make any sense. The way they're way too often portrayed as normal guilds adds for further retardation, but it's the naming that's core problem.
>>47667371
Literally depends on how good of a storyteller/writer/DM the DM is.
A shit DM can have a guild of worldwide assassins who deal with ancient rituals and blood oaths and elder gods and king slaying of forgotten realms in outer planes of existence but if he's shit then it's shit.
He can have a guild of stone collectors but if you're a good writer/storyteller/DM you'll end up making it interesting, engaging, intriguing, etc.
Every person can be interested by a subject, so long as the one exposing it good at exposing.
>>47684309
I guess the question then is not why would a thieves' guild exist, but what is keeping it from diversifying into other lucrative criminal activities despite all of its manpower, connections, and skillsets?
>>47688505
>Yea, well, per'aps what the question really oughta be is, "oo's this fella askin' all the funny questions 'bout the theives' guild's business," innit?
>>47688674
Are you implying that they lack imagination? Or that they're too secretive?
>>47675260
>rivers
>set in stone
lmao
>>47666894
I guess the difference is that "Thieves Guild"s, in settings in which they appear, are often portrayed as legitimate, semi-normal organizations that are accepted by both the government and general public.
Mafias and other organized crime gangs might have politicians and lawyers by the balls, but no one in their right mind will publicly admit it.
>>47685773
This right here. Thieves guilds should not be called "thieves guilds". They should be named something that at least pretends to have a veneer of legitimacy to it, like "worker's guild" or "social justice guild" or "lawyer's guild".
>>47688740
Whichever's funnier, honestly.
I mean, there are loads of ways you can be a thief. You could have white-collar thieves who shave coins, or fellows like that one who just stab people and take their shit. I just thought
>>47680853
>>47682092
Destroyed faster than the Chinese Royal Navy
>>47668004
>legitimate thieves guild
Suuuure.
