What are some valid criticisms against Age of Sigmar besides "old is good, new is dumb"?
>>47578307
The game is actually fun.
Just needs a system to balance games.
>>47578307
It's more expensive than buying the old one second hand.
Also, 40k conversion potential
My main gripe is about the new setting.
I loved the medieval/renaissance look of the Old world, it was at once familiar and fantastical. I've also played the setting since the days of Heroquest and I grew fond of how the setting treated Fantasy elements.
Now, it's a very shallow setting, full of bling and superheroes fighting at a cosmic scale. It's not as appealing.
>>47578455
This.
If they wanted to reboot the game, fine.
There was no need to throw out a beautiful, deep setting with decades of lore.
Want to rehaul your game with new rules that make it easier? Fine. But this was a mistake.
Also, the game lacks any semblance of balance whatsoever.
casual shit that destroyed old WHFB
>>47578388
You betcha!
>>47578455
This, to me, mostly.
The old world was a good setting and I liked the delicate politics of the empire and the danger of other nations ambitious and all of that. Now is just the fighty bits, in fantasy space.
>>47578524
read the original post, dipshit.
>>47578307
Unbalanced and bloated, plus a setting without substance with a weird mix of He-man and Wow aesthethics and expensive minis . If any other company launched it we would not talk about it like at all, the most probably. Lots of interesting games with cool setting are barely talked there like Wrath of Kings.
>>47578701
*Bloated with special abilities. How many differents shields exist for the different minis? That's not how to make a rules light game.
>>47578307
Awful fluff, awful art, bad models.
>>47578307
The complete lack of any points system, leading players to immediately create a points system by counting Wounds.
>>47578307
>besides "old is good, new is dumb"?
So basically criticism isn't allowed because you say so.
No one is allowed to mention the positives of the 'old' or suggest weakness in new ideas because Simon says?
Okay then: Sigmarines look like total shit and the fact they exist is kind of embarrassing, but it's not because they are new.
>>47578778
>No points system
Wait, what the fuck? How can you determine a mini's value within the game without something that basic?
At that point you're just tossing plastic at your opponent, because you can agree "we'll each have 25 minis" except yours all unkillable supermen and his are fucking chumps.
>>47578839
Welcome to the Age of Sigmar :^)
'Wait, what the fuck?' might as well be the subtitle of AoS.
>>47578455
>>47578500
>>47578570
I'm with them. It's not that AoS is bad. It's killing Warhammer Fantasy that was bad.
If AoS had come out without killing support of Fantasy, there wouldn't be nearly as many complaints.
>>47578870
Probably because a lot less people would care for it.
>>47578748
>How many differents shields exist for the different minis? That's not how to make a rules light game.
it's a way to do it. The rules are on the unit, you don't need to look anywere else, just at your units card.
It's not that there are so many different rules for 'shield'. There are no rules for 'shield', there are just unit special rules.
Killing WHFB is pretty inexcusable. Just because 8th took it in an awful direction model count wise doesn't mean that just can't be undone in a more practical way.
Also, those Sigmarines look horribly out of place. The concept of warriors of the gods of order is fine, the designs are not. Except, as others have mentioned, for use as 40k conversions.
>>47578307
There's a lot less variety to it, as far as I can tell. It's a lot simpler good versus evil, where WFB at least left it up in the air that anyone could find a reason to fight anyone.
>>47578778
>>47578861
point systems aren't the only way of creating balance, and don't necessarily do the job well (see all other GW games). They can give an excuse that something is balance when it clearly is not.
HOWEVER: having no rules or guidelines for creating balance was extremely stupid.
It's possible that the new plan could work pretty well: Casual Play (do whatever you think is fun), Scenario Play (unit choice based on scenario, for better stories, and adjusting how valuable a unit would be considered based on the scenario rules), and competative play (point system) would work.
Pie in the sky hope, the competitive point system adjust fairly frequency in response to emerging balance issues discovered by the community.
New setting is boring, non-detailed, and an uninspired mess
No points system and oversimplified rules kill the gameplay
>>47578901
It's bad design desu, if the units have the shield special ability in the same army and it changes what it does between the different guys it's possible to mix them in mid play, specially when they can change a lot. Magic does it right, AoS not so much. Plus it's true they will put a FaQ for a 4 page rules? How the fuck you botch that?
>>47578307
I personally have a soft spot for schlock, which Age of Sigmar is. Big grandiose statements about cosmic empires, gods of order and chaos and Paladins. I eat that shit up. The problem is when that setting is introduced ontop of the still-kicking body of Warhammer Fantasy, which I happened to like even more. Decades of lore and worldbuilding, a dark humor built into the setting that is absent from 40k and a smaller scale where it felt like a battle mattered.
Now it's just a mess and it's a shame.
>>47578941
>Also, those Sigmarines look horribly out of place.
they look horribly out of place against the old fantasy models.
They could work pretty well in their new super high fantasy world. If you look at Silver Tower they fit a lot better against that selection of models.
AoS should really have been created as it's own separate thing, with WHFB staying WHFB.
>>47578307
>shit setting
>siegmarines
>expensive as fuck models
>axing stuff left and right
>super simple rules
>40k blobs
>"bring what you got" games
If it had been a totally different game, I would have not given two fucks about it. But they had to burn down a game I liked (well, other than I didn't enjoy 8e that much, but 5e-7e were enjoyable enough for me) to make it. They might as well burn down 40k and replace it with 30k and shit rules. Also, half the legions will get axed and grey knights are now the heroes of the setting.
>>47579012
> if the units have the shield special ability in the same army and it changes what it does between the different guys it's possible to mix them in mid play, specially when they can change a lot.
no, because you expect that there is a 'rule for shield'.
It's a bad habit to apply to this game. Look at each unit as that unit, it behaves as itself. Not according to some broader large list of rules.
4 simple pages, and the unit itself.
It's a can be a hard habit to break, but the problem is your habit.
>how do you botch that
corner case clarification. You know Magic right, look at how long corner case ruling can get for a single card.
>>47578976
>point systems aren't the only way of creating balance, and don't necessarily do the job well (see all other GW games).
That's not the system's fault. If a unit or item is better or worse than its cost demands then that fault is on the backs of the designers and rulebook makers.
>>47578976
Mantic does it well tough, like in KoW.
>>47579118
that's what I meant. It requires proper execution, and can be bad when poor execution gives an excuse for imbalance.
if you've played 40k for a long time with a good group, then you know that often you have to balance the armies on top of the point system to make a good game.
Plus even a good system doesn't work as well when you want stuff like scenario play with heavy scenario rules. Being able to free yourself from that system when making a scenario encounter works too.
Then there is stuff like slot based balancing, and other systems.
I'm not saying point cost is bad, just that it's not the only way or the best way in all cases. It has downsides.
>>47578769
>awful art
wrong
>>47578307
The game requires players' input and self restriction to have the minimum semblance of balance.
Many artpieces and miniatures visibly suffer from being hastly put together.
The design of the stormcast eternals try to capture the feel of space marines in a fantasy setting and fail to translate the important bits while mismanaging others and bringing something that clashes with the actual model line's visuals.
The setting is left vague, so vague it often ends up being repetitive and void when comparing the expressed to the potential.
It upped the magical powerlevel of things while removing their lower levels from view, practically removing the contrast that is supposed to make such introductions interesting to begin with.
>if anything is possible, nothing is incredible
The times AoS does things well are when it is running on tested formulas from and applicable to the old setting, which makes you wonder on the point of the change.
Now, what are valid praises about Age of Sigmar that aren't "old is bad, new is good", "change is always for the best", "warhammer wasn't as profitable as 40000"?
>>47579488
>that
>not awful art
wrong
>>47579488
Is that good art for you? A souless speed paint piece?
>>47579534
Sitting like that is terrible on your back
>>47579488
Why is Ghal Maraz an adze?
>>47578578
again, it's casual and it killed old WHFB
>>47579495
>praise
Rules being free and most of the rules being on the unit cards, so minimal consulting of rulebook tables.
lots of interesting scenarios and tools for scenario building.
high wound monsters becoming weaker as they get hurts means they act more like units, and there is benefit to hitting them even if you can't bring them down right then.
Rules are incredibly simple
Design quality falling while prices rise
Setting has very little lore and it's impossible to take seriously
>>47579488
>generic monochrome 3 hour digital
pic related, good sigmar.
>>47579570
that anatomy holy shit
>>47579015
>If you look at Silver Tower they fit a lot better against that selection of models.
Now look at the OP pic and tell me with a straight face that a more classic looking knight wouldn't have looked more at home with the rest of the archetipical characters there in the place of the sigmarine.
>>47578307
>typical Sigmarine is weaker than a typical Ironjawz Ork boy
Sigmar took the best of humanity's warriors over hundreds of years and reforged them with sigmarite and celestial magics woven into their soul to arrive at an end product that's about as good as an ork.
>>47578455
This. The Old World may have been derivative, but it was well curated in it's derivativeness. They knew what to rip off, what to distill and what to exaggerate and how to synthesize.
>>47579716
okay, you got me, the face helmets are a little weird.
They aren't without historical precipitant, but the historical ones always looked weird to me too.
After that, it fits fine. And the other heroes in their are among the most normal of the hero selection.
>>47579570
squat chests
big arms and thighs
huge shoulders
That first piece you posted was a lot better.
>>47579919
>okay, you got me, the face helmets are a little weird.
It's not the face helmet, try again, or tell me if you need more hints
>>47579495
I want to ask what parts of Stormcast Eternals you feel were mangled from Space Marines.
>>47579495
>change is always for the best
GW shills confirmed for Chaos cultists.
>>47579963
Not him but...
>>47580021
They are clearly copies of those guys, even the color scheme it's spot one.
>>47580076
Pretty ancients too.
>>47579963
Massive pauldron, big flat easy painting army pieces, the general supersoldiers aesthetic.
It's made to make space marine players- who are the majority of sales for gw coming from space marine selling-look at the sigmarines and say "oh cool, it's like a space marine, but magic"
>>47579956
are you saying that image is a better fit?
Or are you upset about the filigree and scrolls on the sigmarine.
Because fit, and would show up on the more ornate of traditional knight armor. The gold color is also fine in that high color of an art piece and a setting.
Or him being big? because he's a little large, but big things like that show up in fantasy, and in the OP pic you can't even really tell how much bigger he is than a normal man.
>>47578307
Lazy game design. Absolutely no attempt at balance. Expensive minis.
I don't really care about AoS either way. I'm fine with people enjoying it, but I won't play it myself because those rules have absolutely zero depth and I don't like the minis and fluff.
>>47579495
Free and quick to learn rules, cheaper entry cost than WhFB, unit cards.
>>47580021
I need background on this guywhy did they give a fantasy sanguinius rebrearher hoses, that's so out of setting it's terminally autistic
>>47580185
>Fantasy sanguinius.
He is some heroe of the blood angels I think, Dante perhaps?
>>47579570
Goddamnit GW, YOU DONT HAVE TO PUT FUCKING SPACE MARINES IN ALL YOUR GAMES!
This is one of my biggest problems , stupid space marine-not space marine bullshit.
>>47580185
Fantasy?
That's just how they look isn't it?
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Sanguinary-Guard
or
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Blood-Angels-The-Sanguinor-Exemplar-of-the-Host
>>47578500
>If they wanted to reboot the game, fine.
A reboot would also have been very controversial.
>>47580185
That is Dante, chapter master of the Blood Angels in 40k. Has nothing to do with Fantasy or AoS, outside gold armor.
>>47580211
>>47580414
That's not dante, but it's a unit that largely took inspiration from him
>>47579963
Are you asking me what parts were translated badly or what makes the stormcast space marines copies?
>>47580397
>A reboot would also have been very controversial.
Less so, though, and expanding on a "setting-historical" timeframe would have let them distance themselves from the End Times debacle.
I don't speak for everybody, not having played Warhammer Fantasy (Battles, I have played WFRP) before it was shut down, but I would probably have taken the plunge if they'd decided to run a new grand worldwide campaign set during the Age of the Three Emperors or something.
Imperial infighting while Vlad runs about being fucking awesome? Yes please.
>>47580142
I'm saying that the face is not the main problem of sigmarines
It is proportions of armor (especially chest and arms), the abdominal plate not being fused or interlocking over rather than under the chestpiece, the decorations running on a completely different direction than the rest of the setting's near designs (stylized and geometrical rather than curvilinear and detailed), the general lack of soft surfaces like mail and capes to give volume to the model without running into robotic shapes and the nonsensical pauldrons that lose even that little logic the 40k's ones had.
>>47579694
Anatomy you say?
>>47578748
>complaining about the number of shields in the game
I know you
go back to SA you faggot
>>47580397
>>47580529
They could have done all sorts of things, creep the lore forward, do the end times stuff but have it way more drawn out, moving forward like 100 years before everything ends just have Sigmar show up with his angels and start kicking shit down etc.
Then run a year or two of Fantasy (with only minor rules updates) and Sigmar both existing side by side, Sigmar being the Skirmish game, Fantasy the war scale rank and flank game.
>>47578805
No you twat, he is saying that "it's new therefore it is bad' is not a legitimate argument.
He's right. New stuff is not inherently worse (or better) than old stuff.
No points
Awful WoW art
>>47578941
WHFB was already close to death. Killing it off to make a big spectacle for AOS was the only value it had left.
>>47579822
fluff =/= crunch
Same reason Space Marines are chronic rape machines in the fluff but shit tier units on the table.
>>47579660
>it's bad because it is monochrome
>>47580757
>the only value it had left
It had value in its rich world, you cunt.
That was the main value it always had.
The battle-game was always a mediocre forgettable sideshow.
>>47580784
Less colours is inherently lazier than more colours
>>47580814
The setting lives on in vidya at least
>>47580757
>this is what idiots believe
>>47580836
Ever deviantart oc donut steel digagrees
>>47578307
I think the problem isn't really with Age of Sigmar, but with364 what they threw out the window to "make room" for it.
People just miss their favored setting, especially because the new one isn't really there to replace the old at all.
>>47580836
No it isn't, it's an artistic choice
More colours doesn't mean more effort
>>47580836
I can't believe you actually said this!
>>47580486
The parts that were translated badly. I don't honestly know much about their backstories, but they seem fairly obviously Space Marine-y, and I don't see how you could get that wrong - big supersoldiers, brave beyond human norms, big weapons.
>>47580836
I found some high effort art that you will like
More colours is better right?
The books are good so far
>>47580758
That's just because 40k is a bad game. Marines are rape machines in EA.
Isn't Age of Sigmar just a test-bed for what GW is eventually planning for 40k?
>>47580963
I hope so
40k is a fucking mess
>>47581046
Yes but it's a selling and economically working mess, popular with the consumer base.Although apparently that doesn't matter as much as I've thought.
>>47580695
>proportions
>looks at everything else in the picture
>decorations being a completely different style
>looks the dwarf axe and cleric hammers
>pauldrons
>looks at the barbarian behind the sigmarine in the OP pick
sure, totally doesn't fit there at all.
>>47578307
I don't think there are actually negroes in Warhammer? There's definitely Arabs and Chinamen, but I don't think there's an Africa equivalent.
>>47580924
Is that the new mount for the Stormcasts? Looks about right.
>>47581137
What do you think skaven are?
>>47581152
You're thinking Orcs
>>47581152
>Live in sewers.
>Can't trust anyone.
>Always try to invade "The world above"
Obviously mexicans.
>>47581207
Nah. Greenskins are thuggish and unintelligent, sure, but skaven are ungrateful, backbiting treacherous scum who breed far faster than is sensible and whose dangerous forays into technology tend to blow up in their faces, put too much emphasis on numbers and steal whatever they can get their hands on.
>>47580924
>>47580891
>>47580869
You know that the effort of adding colours is not just the act of slapping them on canvas but also to orchestrate them to have the ideal contrasts and associations?
It is a whole additional part of painting that monochromatic stuff ignores, making the use of it needing objectively more attention than a similar work without colours.
Or are you telling me that drawing stickmen is not lazier than also drawing more realistic details because stickmen can be an artistic choice or because some people make details wrong?
>>47581137
>what are southlanders and pigmies?
>>47578307
Total lack of any balancing mechanic whatsoever, for those who want to add even the slightest competitive element to their competitive game.
Personally, I find TLOS to be an abbomination, and now that they've gone FULL TLOS, and literally stated that the basing doesn't matter, instead of the inverse that used to be true, I happen to find this a significantly bad design choice.
Otherwise, I don't mind the aesthetic.
>>47578307
My main problems?
>Art
The artstyle is too 'high-fantasy'. The grime of the Old World is gone, replaced with shiny god-warriors in armor polished to a shine. Even when they charge across a muddy field they look totally unblemished, as if they aren't even there. Coming from WHFB where people look like they've been through hell even before the fighting starts, it feels wrong. OP's pic is a good example of what I mean. Not counting the fact the daemon in the rear right looks like something out of WoW, that entire scene feels too 'clean' for Warhammer.
>Numbers
Not referring to rules or points, but the way the story deals with numbers. GW essentially tries to make it so that damn near anything a player makes is canon, but as a result you have realms with a seemingly infinite number of people, with heroes comprised of armies of millions, and Archaon killing billions of people on a regular basis and blah blah blah. They try to use big numbers to try and add impact to the setting but there's no feel behind it. They are just statistics. Even 40k when they throw away millions of souls, you actually see it in the artwork and the stories they make. Here? It's glanced over, as if they don't care. And if they don't, why the hell should I?
>Story
It's a big mess. The stuff they did right, they tossed out, the stuff that conflicted they over simplified. They try so damn hard to 'simplify' everything they just complicate it even further.
>>All these guys that used to fight each other in WHFB?
>>They're on the same side now.
>>But they can still fight each other because reasons.
>>Also some characters from WHFB you can use
>>But they're still dead
>>Only not
>>47581249
Chinese?
>>47581115
Sorry, I don't have enough time nor patience to teach blind people the difference between red and blue.
>>47581413
>>Numbers
I still have to find a single measurement of time in the timelines of the age of sigmar
I haven't looked at AoS since the very beginning, but a huge turnoff for me was the beer & pretzels mechanics, e.g. +1 to attacks by this elite dwarf unit if your beard is bigger than your opponents.
Those kind of rules aren't necessarily a bad thing — hell, some games build themselves around similar gimmics — it was just so weird and jarring to see them in the wargame that was replacing WHFB. The old game was never supr srs bsns, but this level of flippancy seemed too out there for me.
>>47581440
No you lack the ability to see the difference between old fantasy ascetic and that in AoS. Big pauldrons, big armor' mighty thews, and geometric ornamentation shows up throughout AoS art. Not just the Sig's. That's why siggys fit AoS but not old fantasy models
>>47581517
They're gone and even when they were everyone just said "You just get those, don't do the stupid shit."
>>47581413
WFB had some elements of high-fantasy, but they were usually used in contrast. Karl Franz was the biggest, shiniest guy you could find. The Bretonnian knights were all shiny and colorful, but this was contrasted with who they fought and with stinky dirty peasants.
Overall I feel like the setting was rushed out, half-baked, and without any strong substance to it, and it'll take years to build that up. They should have just started with a new, clean slate, instead of dragging the bones of the Old World into this.
>>47579614
>and tools for scenario building.
Please, enlighten me on the unwritten nature of these invisible tools.
>>47580907
>and I don't see how you could get that wrong - big supersoldiers, brave beyond human norms, big weapons
AoS apologists have tried, and some still go on trying, to say that since the space marines were derived from the chaos warriors, stormcast eternals are more similar to chaos warriors than space marines.
>>47581679
>Not just the Sig's
This is where you're wrong
>>47578307
All the characters that I loved are gone or completely changed: I want to use Karl Franz, Emperor and Elector Count of Reikland, not Karl Franz the Sigmar Incarnate bingy-bong. Hell, he's not even that anymore, he's "Freeguild General on Griffon": what the fuck is that shit?
Where's Golgfag gone? Why can't I buy Thorgrim anymore? I don't give a fuck about the new characters, I want the old ones back.
>>47581944
I pointed out where those things existed on other models in the pic.
>>47581342
Skink/Tomb King chow
It's shit
>>47582354
The Gorbad Ironclaw and Azhag the slaughterer models where beautiful. Skullmuncha was a great wyvern model, and Gnarla was a great boar. And what do they get now? Some sort of Tuskgor wannabe and Mega Swampert the dragon.
>>47578307
its stupid is a setting without coherence. Its like they build a house starting by the roof.
"we want to do cool shit" without understanding that a setting is something organic, is something you create for some core ideas and them write about until some things are cool.
AoS is empty coolness cos its true that style is more important that subtance but the one cant live without the other,
>>47578455
this, desu. Give me my Old World with the new rules and models and I'd be perfectly happy.
>>47581249
>technology
>negroes
>>47580957
I watched a squadron of Land Raiders tear a Warhound to shreds. It really lives up the lore of those things and their millennia-old machine spirits being war engines unto themselves.
>>47579495
>>47580076
>>47580141
>>47580212
They have stated that the look of the Stormcast are intended to look like good guy versions of Warriors of Chaos, which coincidentally is why the Space Marines were created for 40k, way back when.
>>47579660
just how does one cut off a head with a hammer?
>>47585396
He has that dagger with him for a reason.
>>47578307
the rules really feel like they dont have any depth or substance, sure its not bloated, but it just doesn't seem fun or any deep complexity.
I also cant stand the setting or fluff, it's just so poorly made.
