How do we make magic more interesting in RPGs? We know that the vancian system just isn't cutting it anymore.
By not playing D&D or playing the casting classes that don't use vancian magic.
>>47307659
That depends on your definition of more interesting. Do you want constant fireball throwing or more nuanced rituals? Personally I feel like constant fireball throwing isn't terribly interesting, but I'm sure others feel as though it's the most fun.
>vancian
>inb4 you're pretending what D&D does is anything close to Vancian casting anymore
>>47307731
Fireball throwing isn't bad, but it should be one of a wizard's many utilities. Something closer to a cost system like in video games where you only have a certain amount of mana that can be used(Regenerating some over time) might be a worthwhile way of doing it. Having to actually use mediums such as wands and staves to enhance casting would work too, each with its own benefits and drawbacks.
>>47307767
>one of a wizard's many utilities
>generalist magicians rather than specialists
>>47307659
>in RPGs?
>We know that the vancian system just isn't cutting it anymore.
Look, if your only point of reference for RPGs is D&D, just say D&D. Don't try and pretend like vancian casting is an extremely common and overused concept that every fantasy RPG uses.
Anyway, I prescribe that you read some actual fantasy novels, thus learning about ways to do magic that are not what you read in the Players Handbook and/or vidya, and then once you have actual ideas think of how those might be used in a PnP game.
Also, more interesting how? What are you looking for?
>RPGs
You meant D&D right? Check out Rune Quest's different magic types and GURPS magic supplements. You don't have to play either but both have all sorts of magic systems you can use for inspiration. Some could even be run at the same time without shitting the bed.
Even in D&D there's psionics most nostably the 3.5 versions of them.
>>47307659
Tattoos.
All spells need to be hammered into the caster's body. Magical ink and magical nails.
Gotta cast by activating the tattoos physically. But be careful; miscasting can result in loss of the tattoo, scarring, or even losing a limb.
>>47307659
Vanican magic isn't the problem, it's lack of creative spells
That being said I prefer spell points over slots
>>47307815
I have nothing against focusing in different schools, but some crossplay makes things more interesting. IE a necromancer can focus on debuffs and occasionally raising minions, but can use spells from other schools with a penalty. On the other hand you can be a jack of all trades, but expect to be much less proficient at spells than a character who focuses on one or two schools.
To make magic more interesting, OP, I have to first find out what my audience is interested in.
Right now, my audience is you. The only thing I know for certain is that you do not want the Vancian spellcasting system of pre-4e D&D. I can also infer that you are not satisfied with 4e spellcasting (AEDU) or 5e spellcasting (which isn't exactly Vancian), as you are familiar with D&D and if you liked the newer magic systems you would not be here asking the question.
This is not zero information, but it is much less information than necessary to give a useful answer to your question. So tell me: what are you looking for in a magic system? What do you like about the ones you're used to, and what do you not like about them, and why?
>>47307913
So... exactly like Pathfinder specialist wizards?
>>47307904
I know thatPathfinderhas a similar system where you can use spells stored on your body. Are there any real world mythologies where that was the case, and shamans would frequently tattoo themselves in order to use magic? That does sound like a fun way of doing it given that you have a setting geared towards it.
>>47307959
>spoiler
Really? Never knew that. Might need to play a caster finally...
>>47307984
There's also Runescarred Berserkers in 3.5 with their runescars.
>>47307907
Agree on both counts. Daily spell preparation doesn't have as many limits as people claim, especially at higher levels where you will have more than enough spells to clear your standard dungeon. A different resource system like spell points in some form along with spells that are more than just various reskins of magic missile help. I personally like WHFRP where there are inherent dangers to using magic.
>>47307659
Have you ever tried playing Mage?
>>47307959
I'll be honest with you, bro: real-world mythologies are awful sources for magic systems. Myth-writers told their stories to explain natural phenomena or to teach a moral lesson, not to give a consistent system for magic. In mythology, magic simply works. The why and the how is up to the listener's imagination.
>>47308036
I haven't played anything but a mortal WoD game. What is the magic system like there?
>>47308048
>What is the magic system like there?
Reality is a lie, you can cut through it if you're careful. Because if you're not realty bitchslaps you. And if you're really unlucky, things from the other side come over and eat / rape / kill you. most of the time all three at the same time.
>>47308004
I will have to look into those next 3.PF game I'm in.
>>47308045
I can see what you mean. D&D's setting is made so that the entire cosmology revolves around its mechanical consistency, carefull quartering pieces off based on alignment and laying interactions out. That said inspiration from actual cultures can certainly help, but once you adopt those features you lift any of the mystery associated with that mythology's magic and cosmology once you slap solid mechanics and rules onto everything.
>>47307659
Stop playing D&D
>>47308157
But it's easy to make shit threads with.
>>47307659
Don't play D&D.
>>47307904
>But be careful; miscasting can result in loss of the tattoo, scarring, or even losing a limb.
>Action you do nearly every round each combat encounter has a chance of permanently gimping or even maiming your character
Why does so much of /tg/ have a giant hard-on for these sort of systems? Critical misses are bullshit enough when they're only doing recoverable damage. It's shit way to do magic in narrative fiction and even worse in RPGs.
>>47308157
>>47308234
Then why don't you share what what systems we should use? Oh right, how silly of me, that would open you up to criticism and this is about whining about popular things to feel better than everyone else, not offering alternatives to a system dragged down by legacy mechanics.
>>47308405
While some guy did mention Runequest, it is hard to say that a lot of popular RPGs are actually good systems. Shadowrun has its own share of problems, and there are a million places to start with anything that White Wolf has put out.
>>47308405
I really like that kind of shit. Magic, by and large, is very powerful. It needs balance somehow. Turning every roll into a cost benefit analysis is a great way of balancing it.
In the 40k RPGs you might explode into daemons or you might rip your enemy, their tank, and the city behind them in half.I find it fun.
>>47308405
>Then why don't you share what what systems we should use?
People do that all the time. All. The. Time.
Personally I've always been a fan of "powerful magic but at a significant cost" or "Magic is subtle and you may not even notice its effects" systems. Opposite extremes from one another, but both far more interesting than D&D style fireballs everywhere like it ain't no thang shit.
>>47307659
I always liked the idea of magic being physically exhausting to cast. Probably something to the tune of "channeling the magic through your body puts strain on you".
Small spells could be done easily enough, but bigger stuff is draining and risky. Mess up the spell and all the magic going through you goes wild. By spending more time casting the spell you could mitigate the negative effects, but doing it fast means having all that magic go through you in a very short time.
>>47308459
Fucking this. It's like these fuckfaces just cover their eyes and go "LALALALALA IF I DONT SEE I CAN STILL USE THIS BULLSHIT NON-ARGUMENT"
>>47307659
Step one: Stop posting pedoshit from a shitty show based in a shitty universe that has to date produced only one thing worth peoples' time-
Step two: Play Runequest, it has a branch of magic based entirely around gods and praying (not channeling divine, just literally praying for a miracle) or any universe that uses mix-n-match rune casting where you just memorize the runes and then mix and match them for different results, where some combinations just make things go boom or others just fizzle in the air due to incompatibility (Read: Magicka rules of spells).
I feel so. Bad. For 3.pf dorks
You know OP, despite all the hullabaloo in this thread, I don't think you will actually do anything.
You know why? Because you're here asking people to suggest systems, but it is extremely easy to pirate a bunch of PDFs and look it up yourself. So easy, in fact, that you do not need to make a thread about it. "Try Runequest/WH40kRP/GURPS/Shadowrun/WoD/notD&D/etc." is a stupid, pointless waste of a post, because none of those are obscure systems, so if you were at all interested in reading them you would have already done so before you made the thread.
You did not, and you are not going to. In the end you are going to bounce some ideas, write half a paragraph, sleep on it, and never touch your brief experiment in homebrew again, because you are simply too lazy to do so.
I'm not even saying you need to look up all those systems! Maybe you want to make something yourself. But the very fact that you are welcoming such suggestions says much about how little you know about what you want to do and how.
Spells are more powerful, but overusing them can lead to dire consequences.
Something like this:
http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=933
Fuck off.
>>>/a/
>>>/u/
>>>/o/
>>>/trash/
>>47308440
I just feel like there's better ways to balance classes. If that's what's required to balance things out, magic must be fairly OP without it, which means that when it doesn't fuck up the rest of the party is noticeably worse than the caster. When it does, the caster becomes useless or worse than useless. Sure, that might balance out to being on par with the rest of the party, but in a way that kind of defeats the point of balance. That's not to say that every single character build needs to be equally effective in every situation, but when the gulf between when you are and aren't useful is that large, and is entirely random, I just don't see how it's any better.
>In the 40k RPGs you might explode into daemons or you might rip your enemy, their tank, and the city behind them in half.
Weird as this is going to sound, I'm way more forgiving of death as a consequence than maiming. Sure, the psycher might get torn to shreds by beings beyond mortal comprehension, and that'll suck if the player had any attachment to that character, but they can always just role up another one. With permanent damage, the character is going to just keep lagging further behind everyone else. That tattoo system was especially egregious because skin space equates to spell slots. You'd start with the maximum you're ever going to have, then lose more and more over time.
>>47308459
>People do that all the time. All. The. Time.
If everyone is doing it, then why don't you? If you don't have anything to add, why did you post? You're not looking like any less of an insecure twat right now
>>47308509
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you trying to say telling people to actually contribute to threads instead of smugly whining is some bullshit rhetorical trick?
>>47308862
>Weird as this is going to sound, I'm way more forgiving of death as a consequence than maiming.
In 40k, death is only one of the possible repercussions of using Magic. Lots of them are maiming, either physically or mentally.
>That tattoo system was especially egregious because skin space equates to spell slots. You'd start with the maximum you're ever going to have, then lose more and more over time.
Makes each spell choice that much more important, no? Plus, it forces people to be creative. I'll cast this and that at once for this other effect. I'd love to see a system like that, have a half dozen base spells, then combine them as you want for stuff.
Then you can get complex spells you use a lot tattooed on you to remove the activation time for multiple spells.
>>47308501 has a nice balance I think between our positions.
>>47308405
>Then why don't you share what what systems we should use?
Alternatives were suggested.
The key is actually just play ANYTHING that isn't D&D/Pathfinder.
Once you stop being constrained by the false boundaries of that construct you'll find you can solve most of your problems on your own.
D&D is training wheels. If you don't cast them aside, you'll never know true freedom.
>tfw I play plenty of systems besides D&D but still enjoy aspects of some editions
>tfw /tg/ will hate you no matter what
Feels reasonable, man.
>>47308463
How do you actually achieve
>Magic is subtle and you may not even notice its effects
in a somewhat heroic game? I like the idea of having to prepare beforehand, essentially handing out buffs to the rest of the party (probably ones that you choose when to activate); but then I feel like the mage character would turn into a boring skillmonkey type.
>>47309057
>>47307659
My favorite magic system is the one for Mage: The Ascension. Basically you have nine "Spheres" of magick ranked from 0-5 that give control over a different aspect of reality. You cast magick by making up an effect on the fly that incorporates one or more of your spheres. The limitations on the system are
1. Foci. You require certain physical objects or concentration aids [incantations, prayers, etc] to cast from certain Spheres, and you can't really cast magick at all without SOME form of Foci.
2. Paradox. In the world of Mage, magick isn't believed in, so performing any blatant spell effect builds up a pool of "Paradox" that can cause damage or weird shit to happen to you later on. This effectively forces you to make your magic subtle except in dire situations.
3. Paradigm. Your PC can only cast Effects that accord with his belief system [this is strictly a RP limitation, as opposed to the first two which are mechanical].
So for example, a Mage with "Forces 3" could shoot lightning from his fingertips. But that would yield paradox. So instead he has to do something more subtle with his power over physical forces, like say, make the wheel of a car just so happen to fall off.
Or a sinkhole just so happen to open up in the street beneath his enemy.
Or lightning to just so happen to hit the person chasing him during a thunder storm.
>>47308960
>In 40k, death is only one of the possible repercussions of using Magic. Lots of them are maiming, either physically or mentally.
Ah. I've never played one. I did have a group that talked about running Deathwatch once, but that never materialized.
>Makes each spell choice that much more important, no? Plus, it forces people to be creative. I'll cast this and that at once for this other effect. I'd love to see a system like that, have a half dozen base spells, then combine them as you want for stuff.
I like the idea too, for the most part. Just the idea that you can randomly lose tattoos seems really, really dumb to me
>has a nice balance I think between our positions.
Not even a balance. Giving magic temporary drawbacks is fantastic way to do it, since you can make it as powerful as you want without having to give martials "unrealistic" abilities ("The wizard can move mountains, so the sword guy has to be able to cut them in half with a single swipe") to compensate at high levels. I don't even mind the idea of magic being able to cause damage under circumstances like exhaustion or trying to cast a spell that's too powerful for your character, since that gives the player the choice to take that risk. I just think having it completely outside your control is bad design.
>>47309004
>Alternatives were suggested.
Then why are you posting in the thread? Is this some kind of narcissistic things where you just assume everyone wants to hear your opinion at all times even when it contributes literally nothing to the conversation? I mean LITERALLY, since OP asked for alternatives to Vancian casting, which implies he's looking for systems that aren't D&D and do magic well.
And why do you keep assuming I'm a D&D player? I haven't played a d20 system in years. Again, you keep confirming my suspicion that the only reason you're here is to prove how much better you are than the stupid D&D players
>>47308862
In this thread and many others anons have suggested:
>Runequest
>GURPS
>WHFRP
>Mage
>40k RPGs
>Shadowrun
>WoD
But you're still making shitty threads about how magic in D&D isn't fun. Consult >>47308680 for more information.
>>47309307
>completely outside your control is bad design
You know the risks as you cast. That's within your control inherently.
Or are you saying that the dice shouldn't decide?
>>47309333
But your choices are
>Do nothing
>Potentially die
That's not much of a choice if you're playing a pure caster
>>47309355
I've literally never seen any situation in an RPG where you only have two choices.
Even as a pure caster, you have a lot more options. Isn't that the point RPGs, that flexibility?
Question: It is possible to make a versatile (i.e. not set in stone spells) system without it devolving in a mother-may-I?
>>47309237
I really like the "just so happens" thing narratively, but isn't it just throwing fireballs around with a different fluff, mechanics-wise?
>>47307902
RuneQuest 6 has 5 different magic systems, one of them being better vancian magic than D&D.
Each are terrific.
>>47309377
If you're in combat, and the only way to really do damage is to cast spells, you kind of do only have two choices
>Cast a spell
>Don't cast a spell
Yes, you probably have more than one spell to choose from, but if they all carry the same risk they're pretty much the same in this context
>>47309482
What do you mean by "mother may I?"
>>47307659
5e did it best.
Fite me.
>>47309527
>you kind of do only have two choices
You can use the environment, that's a favorite of mine. Or get a better understanding of the enemy to get a weak spot for the non-casters. Less common but valid, try to negotiate.
If you honestly think you ever only have two choices in an RPG, you're not thinking hard enough.
I like Vancian magic. There is an immense number of alternative systems if you don't.
>>47309482
Yes, you just use "up to," "no less than," etc. in the rules.
You can shoot fire from your hands for your choice of up to a distance of X feet in a cone no greater than Y degrees for up to (Z)d(N) damage.
Now you can light your cigar with your fire cone spell without fear of burning your eyebrows off.
>>47307659
cobbled together a horrific chimera of the vancian system and the various powers seen in WoD books, so a wizard has to prepare the spells they want to use for the rest of the day like in the vancian system, but each spell is closer to a skill than the traditional D&D spells as they have ranks that a Wizard has to invest XP into buying and the higher level ranks of a spell unlock more powerful (and different) effects from the spell as well as increasing the number of times they can cast particular spells too.
The idea is that it removes the slightly nonsensical concept of a spell being memorised more than once, as the number of times a spell can be cast per day is now detirmined by how many ranks the wizard has in the particular spell.
And at the same time it creates two general types of wizards, those that are fairly well versed in the lower tier effects of a wide variety of spells and those who are hyper specialised in a small number of spells.
One thing that I realised arose out of this set up was that sorcerors would be basically people afflicted with the magical equivalent of an earworm from a young age that means they're insanely intune and adept at ONE spell, but at the cost of being unable to learn any other spells and being a bit unhinged on account of having a spell constantly buzzing around their heads since they were children.
Like imagine you've had the pine colada song constantly stuck in your head since the age of 12 - everything you've done since then, no matter how important or sad or happy or whatever has had this constant background vibe of the pine colada song undercutting it, and whenever you're not busy or thinking about anything in particular you find yourself quietly humming or moving to the tune of the song.
Except it's not a song, it's a powerful conduit of arcane might that is just always there, always seeming to be trying to escape, seeming to taint your every waking and most unwaking moments.
>>47309497
Not quite, because there are numerous situations where the effect you want really has no subtle equivalent. If you're on a plane that is going down, you really have no option to be subtle, you HAVE to just pull up your robes, eat the paradox, and fly away.
The same is also true for things like fireballs. How do you "throw a fireball" in a subtle fashion? The answer is, you're pretty limited. I suppose you could wrap dirt in a fake dynamite casing, but then once you're out of fake casings you're out of fireballs.
>>47308680
Hey he's right.
Maybe we should actually do something /tg/. A new magic system for all the ages.
Templates a la 2Worlds2 (iKnow, 2Worlds1 raped my childhood as well) and channeling certain aspects to cast.
Rather than limiting number of spells you make it take longer to cast cause it's an action to wrangle fire and another to add AoE, and then maybe the release is a free action (readied if you're a dope spellcaster).
>>47309635
>How do you "throw a fireball" in a subtle fashion
Engine explodes sending flaming oil at someone.
If it can be explained through mundane events, people will believe that. At least according to Mage: The Ascension
>>47309695
Well sure, but that depends on someone standing near a car. If you're just in a room, you're limited.
The point is, you HAVE to get creative like that. Its not just "Magick but with different fluff", its "fluff your magick different, or you're fucked"
I honestly think the various ways people get around Paradox is one of the funnest parts of the system
>Sons of Ether make their magick look like super-science so normies believe it
>Akashics use wire-fu because everyone believes hollywood physics
>Celestial Choristers do their magick around the faithful, which makes it count as vulgar still, but with no witnesses [since all witnesses believe].
>>47309674
You don't seem to understand. Complaining about Vancian magic is like complaining about steam-powered cars. We have better magic systems already.
Making a new system at this point isn't about filling a need for a better system, it's about self expression. People will have their own criteria for achieving self-expression. I mean, you can do it, but you're going to have to do it by yourself, for yourself.
>>47309674
Too bad people chased all the writefags away.
>>47309731
We're still here, we just don't waste time and effort as freely anymore.
>>47309621
That actually sounds pretty cool.
>>47309567
>You can use the environment
Contextual, unless the GM contrives to make it so that every potential combat encounter has some kind of environmental feature that can be used, repeatedly.
>Or get a better understanding of the enemy to get a weak spot for the non-casters
You actually enjoy that? And what do you do the rest of the encounter?
>try to negotiate.
I was kind of assuming the fighting had already starter/was unavoidable
Let me rephrase my point: There is no way for a pure caster to consistently both have fun and be effective in combat without casting spells, which means that in systems where using magic always poses a risk of death or permanent injury there is no way to not be boring/useless without running that risk which, for reasons I've already explained, I feel is a poor design choice.
>>47309792
>I don't find it fun
>It's bad design
That's what you just said.
>>47308501
The default systems in Burning Wheel and GURPS are almost exactly what you described. Both also have a variety of creative alternatives.
I tried to start a writethread and got told it was against the rules\a 15 minutes ban?
>>47309883
Not him, but I believe he just said
>there's no way to have fun in this particular way
>it's bad design
Fight if you want, kids, but fight fair.
>>47309883
And? We're stating our opinions, then explaining why we feel the way we do. That's how this works. Are you seriously going to try to argue that the average player thinks spending multiple rounds twiddling their thumbs while everyone else cool and exciting shit is fun?
Things inherently get more intresting when choice or risk is involved, so just inject that in a way other than spell preperation which dosent seem to be getting your wizdick hard anymore
>>47310117
Like 5e where you choose a smaller pool of spells to prepare, but you can choose the level to cast them at. Plus I have never not seen someone accidentally lose a concentration spell in the moment.
OP seems retarded, since it's rather easy to just google this sort of question and just starting trawling through sites for interesting shit. But I will post to support some RPGs I like.
>Artesia
This RPG has what is by far my favorite magic system. The magic mechanics in this game are intuitive and simple, but because of the way they can combo with each other and interface with the attribute, skill, and combat systems you can accomplish pretty much anything you can imagine. This isn't a generalist game system like GURPS, nor is it a rules-lite system like Fate, and it can handle whatever you throw at it without breaking.
>Exalted
>Inb4 Holden and Morke are liars
Despite the inherent lethality of 2e, despite the bonkers development schedule and kickstarter project for 3e, despite the fact that the developers can be fuckwads, this game still accomplished something unique. You play a character with an absurd amount of power and it still keeps things interesting.
>Unknown Armies
You can do anything if you're obsessed enough and capable of paying an abstractly proportionate price. Warlocks working at your local McDonald's are dosing your food with raw magick in the hopes that this will cause you to gain the ability to use magick like them. If they are desperate enough the effort will succeed. Be afraid.
>>47310620
>This isn't a generalist game system
>can handle whatever you throw at it without breaking
Isn't this kind of a contradiction? Not hating on it, it just seems that if it can handle anything, then it's generalist enough to count.
>>47308440
No you can't you faggot and that one time the psyker rolled massed possession and only gave everyone a handful of CP doesn't balance against the hundreds of times nothing happened half because it's rare enough and half because enough XP spent makes the chances almost nil.
>>47311125
You sound like an asshole with your run-on sentence.
So, let's ignore OP. I've got a rough idea for a magic system I want to try out someday but I feel like it's not quite there/it might just be trying too hard. I started with trying to come up with a system where martials could still matter. What I've come up with is a system where spellcasting is done through conjuring and manipulating "demons"; semi-sentient manifestations of various natural forces. The upshot is that non-spellcasters have 2 main ways of interacting with the magical world. First is that all spells have a tangible component that can be hacked at or otherwise interacted with. Secondly the spells can be bargained with. Offer a better deal than the spellcaster and you can release the energies he's trying to wield against you. There's no real limit to what you can bargain with but it'd depend on the spell itself and its own greed and desires.
If you've played it before this is pretty clearly inspired by the roguelike "Demon" but as a casting system instead of a monster catching game.
>>47307659
>Mutants and Masterminds
>you have an array of spells that you can sling out all day erry day
>buying extra spells costs you a bit of character points
>plus some that you have permanently active like mystic shields and flight that you have paid for separately from the main array
>you can also spend time to research and whip out a one-shot spell or enchanted item
I shall be insane, and suggest refluffing FFG's Star Wars RPG system. File off Jedi and any reference to the Force, and replace with Wizard and Magic.
You then have a system where a wizard's skill with magic is not directly linked to his attributes (you could be low Int, but still sling magic), and unless the character invests a reasonable amount of XP into developing their powers, they won't break the game.
>>47307659
Ars Magica
>>47309057
>in a somewhat heroic game?
You generally don't. Subtle magic systems are for non-heroic games.
I've created a few magic systems in my time but by far the best one used Harry Potter as a base and expanded upon it.
Basically;
>Magic requires three things; Incantation, Movement, and Intent
>You must speak to cast spells unless they are amulet/ring spells (explained later) So silencing a Wizard with heavy smoke or a gag is a counter
>You must move in order to channel the magic, so restraining a Wizard will make it impossible to cast spells
>You must be able to mentally intend what you want your spell to do. This doesn't mean much in practice, but it does mean that golems or parrots couldn't cast spells even if trained or programmed to mimic the motions and words.
>Magical spells MUST be cast through a tool called a Focus
>The Focus determines what kind of spells can be cast through it.
>Wands are precise but somewhat weak
>Staves are strong but not very subtle
>Rings can only cast spells on objects in the hand or touch based, but are strong and can be subtle
>Amulets can only cast spells on the caster, but can keep passive spells going for a while
The only other way to cast spells is to use a direct spellbook, which is how you would cast any other type of spell you wanted, but you must turn the spellbook to the pages of the spell and incant everything. Obviously spellbooks are weak and open to sabotage or theft.
As for spell's energy- magical energy is in the air and land around you itself. Dying creatures release more of it, as do sacred or spooky places, which is why Wizards love these things. If you cast a bunch of spells over and over, or if multiple Wizards fight in the same area, the magic in the area may run out and spells will not work until it slowly fills back up.
There are no daily limits for spells, but all spells are specific and extremely weak compared to normal DnD magic. It's quite a fun system that makes Wizards actually feel like fucking Wizards.
How about purely ritual magic with blood sacrifices, like in the days of old?
>>47309237
>magick
I know it's their fault and not yours but you still sound like a massive faggot when you write it like that. Hell, I sound like a massive faggot just quoting you.
>>47309792
>Let me rephrase my point: There is no way for a pure caster to consistently both have fun and be effective in combat without casting spells,
1) In 40k, no such thing as a "pure caster." It is your own fault if you didn't bring a gun.
2) Even if, for RP purposes, you don't carry a gun, for many people "unable to contribute to combat" isn't inherently unfun. I played a diplomat in a game once who was shite in combat compared to the rest of the group and it worked fine - combat wasn't meant to be my thing.
>>47309057
>How do you actually achieve
>>Magic is subtle and you may not even notice its effects
>in a somewhat heroic game?
Subtly.
OK lulz over, I'll pretend to be serious for a minute:
SUBTLY.
I shall explain by example: Let's say fairies are warded off by iron.
Now you COULD do it the D&D way and be all "Fairies have DR 5/cold iron" but fuck that.
Instead, if any of the players have an iron ward on them (Either brandished as a ward or as simple as a nail on a necklace), if your random encounter roll is "fairies," you roll again - only if you get fairies a second time do they actually meet any fairies, otherwise there is no encounter.
>>47317795
Teleport magic too obvious and unsubtle?
Tahriz the Wanderer stole fire from the gods and is now cursed to walk the world eternally. If you follow him, walking his path besides him, you end up the same place as him. He knows a lot of shortcuts - in fact, by now, Tahriz knows all the shortcuts.
You're in the Imperial Capital? You need to get to the Gates of Hell in two hours? Pour out a bottle of his favorite wine (to call him) and have a second ready (to share with him as you walk) and tell him where you want to follow him, he'll go to a narrow alley near the docks where a rapist was stabbed only yesterday and walk to hell along the same dark path the demons followed when they took the rapists soul.
>>47313850
Ditto to that. Best and most simulationist magic system I've seen. Also has options beyond just one or two styles of learning and casting.
>>47308501
a system exactly like this was introduced in d&d 2e skills and powers, in the spells and magic book. in fact it had several systems for casting, spell points, and learning magic.
>>47311857
did you ever check out the magic system from stormbringer, i think the first edition. all magic was from summoned demons.
>>47318365
>Ditto to that. Best and most simulationist magic system I've seen. Also has options beyond just one or two styles of learning and casting.
>Creo Ignem
>Subtle
I like how Riddle of Steel handles magic (sans aging, because the penalties don't feel immediate enough).
The basic idea is that spells take actual meaningful time to cast, but could be extremely powerful. More powerful = more time.
Sure, you could blow up a whole campsite, but during that time, you're doing the macarina shouting ominous shit to the heavens, and anyone on lookout has ample rounds to put an arrow in your face between the time you start and finish.
If you're going for a more holy option, divine miracles don't just come in daily rations from above. They have to be earned over time. Yes, if your biblical savings account maxes out you can literally call down a legion of angels to fuck bitches up, but that was probably 10+ sessions of saving your Jesus juice.
>>47320482
>sans aging, because the penalties don't feel immediate enough
Major penalty that will never kick in during campaign? Is it good?
>>47307659
Like this.
>>47309307
>Then why are you posting in the thread?
Because I feel like it.
>Is this some kind of narcissistic things where you just assume everyone wants to hear your opinion at all times even when it contributes literally nothing to the conversation?
Or you could take my suggestion to play LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE.
>I mean LITERALLY, since OP asked for alternatives to Vancian casting, which implies he's looking for systems that aren't D&D and do magic well.
You're an autist, aren't you?
>And why do you keep assuming I'm a D&D player?
Vancian magic.
>I haven't played a d20 system in years.
Ok.
>Again, you keep confirming my suspicion that the only reason you're here is to prove how much better you are than the stupid D&D players
I am much better than the stupid D&D players, and I don't need to come here to prove that to anyone, let alone an anonymous cumstain.
Either take the advice ("play literally anything that isn't D&D") or don't, but don't bitch about the question that was asked being answered.
>>47307659
Myself and a friend of mine, are currently overhauling the magic system for a homebrew world setting where magic system revolves heavily around magic incantation circles, and materials for spellcasting and general magic.
>>47320786
>Emoji-mancers
>>47315250
>Nobody has responded to this masterpiece yet
>>47307659
GURPSRitual Path Magic is great fun
>>47308680
And this attitude is why /tg/ is dying.
It's not only the /a/ style "superior-than-thou" attitude which thinks asking for help is the same as demanding for spoonfeeding. It's the idea that OP is somehow not welcome here. That he has gone over some imaginary bounds on his quest to talk about fucking role playing games.
It's this idea, that this poster has in his head, that his time is wasted upon helping others. That his time is somehow so precious, that the sheer audacity of posting a thread of 4chan is against his very roleplayer identity.
Mark my words. People will start to shout about spoonfeeding and become hostile to newfags just like /a/, in a forum where at the best of times there are a fraction of people who actually play these games.
We need to be excellent to each other, and help.
This guy, on the other hand, feels his knowledge of fucking role playing games grants him some kind of cloak of importance. He is so important that peasants should bow to his role playing knowledge.
Praise be, this faggot, the true hardcore roleplayer.
>>47307659
Fantasycraft
Talislanta
>>47319570
I have not, I must confess that my actuald experience with a variety of different systems is sorely lacking. /tg/ stuff is mostly a fantasy. I'll check it out though, thanks.
>>47320786
>Dark theme notepad++
Brang the noice.
>>47307767
>Something closer to a cost system like in video games where you only have a certain amount of mana that can be used(Regenerating some over time)
That's even worse than the D&D version. This only means he saves all his mana for his best spell.
>>47320726
Riddle of Steel's magic has a mana pool thing going on to limit magic on what's effectively a per-spell basis, due to the presence of spells to get more mana; however, the main drawback of spellcasting is premature aging.
When casting, you'll end up aging some number of months based on how hardcore the spell was (minus your efforts to resist... which will probably fail). Aside from creating a massive plot hole regarding the study of higher magics, it does little to dissuade the use of magic.
Assuming the average character starts at 20 years old... penalties won't start looking at you until 40, and you can't reasonably get fucked until a minimum of 60... you're looking at 240 months of artificial aging before you're at any sort of risk, and then a total of 480 before you're actually starting to feel it.
I prefer fatigue combined with some sort of inquisition looking for mages and trying to set them on fire.
Don't cast that spell, you'll be too tired to fight.
Don't cast that spell, some guy who knows how to deal with your type is going to ask you some questions... with thumbscrews.
>>47307767
Savage Worlds uses a resource called Power Points. Many spells allows you, if I remember right, to charge to different powerlevels. They recharge over time with perks/qualities/talents that allows for faster recharge rates.
>>47317661
Fuck you the K is awesome.
I like how Reign does it in paper, but have yet to play a game to see if it works on a real session.
>>47315250
>>47322056
I'm playing in a friends AU Harry Potter game and the magic systems is really simple and fun(modified whitewolf). Most fun wizarding game I've played
Fuck magic.
Alchemy is the new black.
>Need a hole in that wall? There's a potion for that.
>Want your sword to burn like the sun? There's a potion for that.
>Want to see in the dark? Potion.
>Want to turn stone into glass? Pooootion.
>Want a bit my girth in your gristle missle? Potion for days.
>Want that Magister to die by literally shitting his guts out? Well guess fucking what.
>Potion.
>For.
>That.
Had an idea for a magic system based on a videogame idea I had way back when.
The idea of the game, is that you are a no-name Janitor at a lunatic asylum, and one of the patients within the Asylum is actually a very powerful excorcist, driven insane or possibly possessed by a VERY powerful spirit.
Things happen, shit goes wrong a la, some of the spirits buddies or maybe a third factor break into the asylum, and the Player Character ends up possessed by the evil spirit AND the exorcist.
End result, you've got 2 voices in your head saying "Be a dick!" or "Don't be a Dick!" and the methodologies for each extra personality vary.
The Spirit's magic is more..."Fuck you I'm Magic" level of stuff, with Psychokinesis, Telekinesis, Body puppeting magic and various shenanigans.
The Exorcists magic requires some kind of physical element, so they can channel some form of natural force into their surroundings. Paper and wood for Fire stuff, Metal for electrically based spells, Water for Water(duh) or Ice spells.
>Mental image, Copper needles jabbed/thrown into an enemy, whisper a few words and BOOM, Lightning bolt!
So the "material Components" for magic is what I think could apply for a "new-ish" magic system.
Yes, Material components are fuckin' EVERYWHERE, but I'm thinking of "related" components, like a piece of paper with a rune scrawled on it to make an explosive trap/wall of fire, rather than the straight "Explosive Rune" Spell.
Mental image: Wizard hands a sheet of glowing vellum to the Barbarian and says "Slap this against the Giants leg, and then RUN LIKE FUCK!"
Barbarian does so.
Spell equivalent of a sticky grenade blows the giants leg off.
It could work, maybe.
>>47324362
Free form potions would be cool. Say there are 10 ingredient types in your world that you could mix for varying effects. Each ingredient would have a base effect, then you could consult a chart to see how the ingredient reacts with other ingredients. It might be suppressed by, enhanced or have no interaction with another specific ingredient. This would allow you to balance OP combinations.
Delivery could also be affected (skin contact, inhalation, intravenous (stab wound), and ingestion) by the types of ingredients you use. For example, snake venom can be eaten due to the liver neutralising it, but if it gets around the liver (i.e. is injected) it causes massive damage.
I'm tempted to write this up now, would anyone be interested?
Give me some basic effects an ingredient might have to get me started.
I've done papers on chemical weapons and drug delivery, so hopefully I can come up with something interesting.
>>47324362
That would actually be pretty neat. I good component mixing system and a way to stock those items for every situation like in The Witcher 2 could work in an RPG with clear crunch.
