So it's pretty commonly believed on /tg/ that 3.5/Pathfinder spellcasters (specifically wiz/sorc) are OP as fuck, primarily because their spell list is broken.
On the other end, I've been hearing here and there that the Psionics "casting" classes are pretty balanced, and if not balanced they're at least better balanced than normal spellcasters.
So this got me thinking... how viable would it be to basically replace the wiz/sorc spell list with the psion power list, making thematic adjustments where necessary? Has anyone ever tried something like this?
They're still bad, just not as bad. Really, at this point, don't even worry about something being OP and instead try to look at tiers. Yes, a psion is weaker than a wizard. But they're still a few tiers higher than the rogue, so if somebody wants to play a martial in the group with a psion, he should play a martial of the same tier.
The psion power list is broad enough to replace wizards pretty easily, but you'll have to adjust for the lack of divine spells/casters.
Closest thing I have done is take out a list of spells and either removed them or made them rituals of some sort.
WAs a lot of work and was never satisfied with the results. Had to accept the fact to either ban some spells, classes or options , move on to another system or accept the janky mess and do the best a dm could do to mediate the disaster.
>>46794140
Are there any good story times of an all caster party? Or is it just s.s. nofun because casters can do anything they want anywhere at any time?
>>46794225
Running a gesalt game were everyone took a fullcaster class except the warlock/soul knife.
Will post some highlights after work if the thread is still up.
>>46794140
The issue is that 3.5/Pathfinder is a game that's entirely dependent on numbers and magic can effectively ignore the numbers by default.
It's not simply a matter of making a less OP spell list.
>>46794140
I don't think you understand the problem here.
The concern with 3.5e spellcasters is multiple, and while changing their spell list will help somewhat, it won't solve the problem and will probably make things worse for you, the DM. Also a concern for Wizard spellcasting is the spells/day issue (Wizards can pump INT and get tons of spells), the Single-Attribute-Dependency issue, and wands. Replacing the spell list with a Psion's power list might solve some of the problems - like preventing 8-hour rests in the middle of the day - but wouldn't solve the others.
Furthermore, you can't just swap Wizard spells with Psion powers and call it a day. Psion powers rely on spending PP to activate and pumping more PP into them to make them "level appropriate". This is why Psions are generally considered more balanced: they need to, effectively, but the equivalent of 5th level spell slots to use powers at that level. Wizards, by contrast, get auto-scaling with all their spells. That's why the Psion works: they don't have 50-some spell slots with damage spells dealing 20d6 each.
The reason the spell/power list doesn't just swap over is because the Psion powers assume that the Psion is capable of pumping PP into them. If you just don't allow that to happen, then you have a massive number of worthless spells - and will frequently find levels where there are no good appropriate spells, because the Psion list assumed players would be pumping up the lower spells in those cases. If you auto-charge all powers up to the caster level, though, you end up with something far stronger than expected, since Psions would be limited by their PP and couldn't fully charge every use of a power.
So, you aren't really solving too much, and you are giving yourself a headache to deal with. You might as well go through and ban the most problematic spells (like Rope Trick) instead of swapping systems and needing to patch-consider each power as acting like a spell.
>>46794184
But that's not how tiers work anon.
If he got that far in the book, he should have realized that's not what it's about. Maybe he got caught up in it, though.
>>46800226
It is how it works for DnD/Pathfinder.
>>46800315
He's a cat, he doesn't understand symbolism. He thinks it's all building to the death of the mockingbird.
>>46796323
I'd argue that "ignoring the numbers" is what makes magic magical. If "magic" is just a theme you slap on a mechanical effect, it feels wrong and you get 4e.
The real problem is that the Wizard's power is overly automatic and immediate, and requires far less investment in terms of money, feats, and attributes than other classes. With his remaining budget, the Wizard gets to double down on his strengths and pump his initiative into the stratosphere or whatever, when everyone else is scrounging for enough bonuses just to stay relevant.
Then there's the issue that the Wizard's deficiencies (from being a guy who reads books in a tower all day) are either irrelevant, or are so poorly modeled by the system that they're bad for everyone. Hit points and fort saves barely matter if you're not on the front line. Wizards get the same base move speed and initiative as everybody else. Athletic skills like swim, climb, and jump are so inaccessible and "overpriced" that characters that should realistically be better than the Wizard aren't.
In short, the game is "caster edition" instead of the much more interesting "protect the caster edition" because the system is too afraid of handing out nice things to non-casters, and too afraid of handing out meaningful limitations to casters.
