Welp, I guess Gary's spinning in his grave then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UjXi1HKjms
What wizards actually have:
-The ability to render other party members with a relatively small number of low-level spells that render entire skills obsolete unless there's anti-magic measures EVERYWHERE.
Seriously, who needs stealth when you can go invisible? Who needs disguise when you Alter Self, who needs Climb or Acrobatics or Swim when you can fucking FLY.
Fuck DnD/Pathfinder and their "DO EVERYTHING" wizards, even if they are kinda crappy in combat by themselves.
>>46668348
>It's a /tg/ tards still don't get 3.5D&D best is CoDZilla and not wizard
>>46668493
You forgot
>And clerics/druid get to be even straight wizard and fighter upgrades AND shit on antimagic
>>46668493
Do you have them ALL THE TIME though? Spell slots are very valuable mind you.
>>46668493
>who needs stealth when you can go invisible?
People who want to be able to be stealthy whenever they want, multiple times a day, without having to plan for it in advance and lose out on the ability to do something else by choosing to be invisible, and who don't want to radically inconvenience everyone else by making them stop and sleep four 8 hours every time they decide they do want to be stealthy but didn't plan for it.
>>46668494
Why do people still care about 3.X?
>>46668603
No fucking idea, seeing how they all still blame wizard and say nothing about the eternal CoDzilla, I'd say highly advanced mental illness.
>>46668603
Because it's kissing cousin Pathfinder's still in fill steam.
>>46668603
It's useful as a bad example.
>>46668572
Not at any point after like 5th or 6th level, though.
>>46668603
>>46668603
They dont. Most , if not all 3.5 players moved off site and trolls took it as a good base to make shit threads that get 150+ replies about a game that has been dead for years.
Also, people hate fucking waffles.
>>46668510
>>46668637
>>house rule nerfs for clerics and druids
>>new player joins groups
>>flips his shit over rules
>>"y u do this!?"
>>"because codzilla makes all martial classes irrelevant"
>>"I know, so y u do this!?"
The thing I hate about the pathfinder community is its so mechanical that the meta game has overtaken the actual game. It's entirely statblocks and cookie cutters. I like the game itself, but the community is shit.
>>46669598
Yeah, I know. They brought the whole videogamey 'tiers' concept from 3.5 and use it to shit on perfectly valid classes (like core Rogue and Kineticist) because they are too 'low-tier'.
>People still arguing if DnD Wizards are over powered or not
>instead of just house ruling them to become balanced
>>46670159
You can't rule wizards.
If you try, they'll just interrupt you every time by shouting "WIZARD".
>>46668603
This yo.
>>46668637
CoD come with enough flavour to appeal more to roleplayers than wizards do. Minmaxers don't want to think about nature or religious dogma, they want to win.
>>46670159
'Fixing' that problem requires a fundamental overhaul of the game.
Its much more sensible to just play a game that is not awful.
>>46668348
>Gygax was narrow minded and self righteous asshole.
BIG FUCKING SURPRISE!
I simply cannot fathom why so many people still worship his works like it is the gospel of RPGs. The guy had some good ideas but game design was not strong point... like at all.
>>46669598
To be fair, almost all houserules that aim to "fix" 3.5's problems are absolute dogshit.
>>46668603
I play it with a group of close friends and we all have the decency to not be gigantic shitheels with spellcasting classes and we also beat the game in with houserules. It's enjoyable if you're with a group who allows it to be enjoyable.
Wow it sounds like all the issues can be solved by being a decent player and just working as a team, that and buffing martials a tad to they can still be as useful. It's almost like the problem is the player, not the class, though the class still is powerful anyway.
>>46670389
Then overhaul the game.
Keep the same skills, rolling mechanics, health points, stats and monsters and all the stuff you love from DnD,
Then, use intelligence and fix the magic system. It's not more fundamental a change then fixing any other mechanic. Suck it up, cupcake.
>>46668348
Gary was literally the first That Guy DM.
>>46671457
He had some great ideas, but yeah he was kinda ehhhh
>>46671391
>Then overhaul the game.
why
why fucking shackle yourself to a game that was never any fucking good
>>46670773
>>46671561
Maybe because you like the other game systems, but the magic is unbalanced so fix it. Don't throw the baby out with your bed pan.
>>46671254
Because in the end, it's pity.
Nobody likes playing the shit character who needs pity
>>46671634
Are you some kind of robot trying to communicate using sentence fragments?
>>46671254
yeah i sure love playing as the gimpy cuck character who needs the rest of the party to even function
god forbid we get separated
>>46671391
Why would I spend all of that time and effort when a hundred other systems have already done it for me?
ITT: we see how long we can talk about how shit D&D is before someone says "Just play Into The Odd"
>>46671254
Nobody wants to be dead weight and Pathfinder went out of its way to make everyone who isn't a full caster dead weight by default.
If I'm a level X martial character, I should be pulling just as much weight as a mage character of equal level. Why am I dependent on the mage character just to handle shit that's supposedly within my area of expertise when the whole reason I'm playing a martial is so I don't have to depend on magic to take out shit like Liches and Dragons and Beholders.
>>46671634
The magic being unbalanced is a symptom, not the disease.
You'd have to devote so much time to learning and developing house rules that work that you're effectively designing your own game anyways. At that point, it's easier just to move on to another game that you'd actually like.
Why are people ignoring the fact people can break the game or make a shit character entirely by accident.
>>46671597
>using a virt screencap
>>46672024
Stymptom of what? The primary problem with magic users is they are too powerful, so limit their ability to wreck everything by weakening their spells and the problem is gone.
However I don't expect you to be intellectually honest with me, you're hear to rant and rave and beat up your straw man.
>>46671989
And the one thing that can fix martials is *gasp* 3pp, which will get automatically dismissed no thanks to the load of crap that popped up during the 3rd edition days.
>>46672768
but virt didn't post that.
>>46672244
That's not actually true for the gamebreaking one, most of the time. Creating something that "by accident" is way off the charts relies on little knowledge of the game as a whole. It's easy to make a bad character, but a gamebreaking one usually requires add-ons and splatbooks, which in turn require some prior game knowledge and active search for good options.
By accident, you can make the worst Fighter that ever saw the light of day, it's simple and easy because Fighter is not a good class. To make a good Fighter, you have to go looking for secondary material far from core.
But even the CoDzilla meme isn't so strong when you only look to core books. Sure, it's stronger than TWF Ranger. Sure, it can wipe the floor with a bad fighter after some levels. But they're not broken, they're just strong. To make a broken character you have to pick one of those, make a plan AND go look for splatbooks. This is not an accident, this is a planned feature. No noob ends up with a gamebreaking character just "by accident".
>>46672882
>so limit their ability to wreck everything by weakening their spells
Do you actually realize what you are saying here?
The words you are saying are completely disingenuous to the actual effort it would take to perform what is going on here. It's tantamount to this:
>"Sir the enemy is surrounding us and we are vastly outnumbered. What do we do?"
>"Uhhh- We'll beat them by weakening them from the inside."
>"... sir what does that mean?"
>"Nehhh just figure something out we'll wing it."
>"Sir there's thousands of them how does this strategy even work-"
>"NEHHHH JUST FIGURE SOMETHING OUT WE'LL WING IT!"
>>46668348
Keep in mind that most of /tg/'s complaints about casters in D&D come from 3.0 and 3.5. Those really are Caster Editions of D&D, casters were no where near as powerful in OD&D or AD&D especially at low levels.
However, once Monte Cooke took over, Casters took over everything.
>>46668603
Because it is the single greatest system in my opinion.
>>46672882
>The primary problem with magic users is they are too powerful, so limit their ability to wreck everything by weakening their spells and the problem is gone.
If you make a caster's spells too weak, then all you've done is make it so that everyone is equally worthless, except that while casters can at least escape the encounter using spells such as teleport or fly or something like that, a martial is basically SOL because not only are they fighting an encounter that they're already at a disadvantage in but now, they're down even further due to not even having the benefit of magic on their side.
In truth, you really cannot fuck with casters without fucking over the martials three times as hard. It's not as simple as lowering numbers and changing effects around, it requires a complete understanding of how the game works and an understanding of how you can effectively balance the game without accidentally making an unintended side effect that breaks the game further.
For the record, this is why Pathfinder is even more imbalanced than 3.5 is, because Paizo didn't understand what make 3.5 bad and just decided to rip out random wires from the game's mechanics and hope for the best.
>>46672892
This doesn't excuse bad design. I like Path of War in Pathfinder, it's a good solution to the shitty martial problem even if it carries its own flaws, but again it does not fix the problem that is Pathfinder as a whole.
>>46668576
The X/day argument gets stupider every time I hear it. If you're planning for a stealth mission ahead of time, the wizard can prepare invisibility multiple times, as well as a few knock spells, flight, alter self, and maybe something to cover his escape if need be. The rogue does not have access to these things. If he wants to climb into a window he needs a rope and grappling hook, which make noise, or he climbs up, which requires hand and footholds. If he wants to disguise himself, he needs a full kit, a quiet place, and a few hours to do his work. If he wants to open locks, again, he needs a kit, plenty of time, and is vulnerable while doing so given his complete lack of invisibility. If he wants to sneak past some guards, he needs a distraction which could easily get him caught if it doesn't work out, and he needs cover or shadow to hide him as he sneaks otherwise it's an automatic failure.
Now, the rogue can do all of these things ALL DAY, but where in this scenario does this actually prove useful? Because in the time it took him to do all of this shit, the wizard could (if he somehow managed to burn through the ungodly amount of spell slots he has) just create a small pocket dimension with a rope trick and take a fucking nap in the fucking infiltration site itself. Or, if he's feeling cheeky, he just prepares dimension door twice, poofs into the building, grabs what he needs, and pops back out in the span of a minute tops.
>>46668576
Funnily enough, Pathfinder set out to try and "fix" some of 3.5's class balance and then printed an ability that let wizards fill in blank spell slots in 15 minutes instead of several hours.
Then they printed a new class that prepares spells it casts like a sorcerer so it never has to prepare a spell more than once, and can swap one of the spells it has prepared in six seconds.
If you can do something kinda good 50 times a day or you can do something amazing 4 times a day, the latter will almost always be better than the former in 3.X.
I'll also just leave this here. We might have bingo already but I'm not keeping track.
>>46673119
Literally this.
>>46673675
Because then I'd put in a hall of ten doors in your path to stop you from being a prick. I'd do that to any player who is trying to invalidate the other player's characters.
>Oh wizard tried to do stealth mission with invisibility+knock?
>Casting knock kicks you out of invisibility because of the verbal components and every guard gets a perception check to see where that sound came from while you're chanting the invisibility spell again.
>Wizard polymorphs himself into a hydra?
>Wizard loses him class levels and mind while in hydra form, potentially killing his party while trying to smack the demon orcs.
>Wizard casts a 20d6 fireball to end every encounter?
>The room and building collapses on the wizard while everyone else gets out fine.
>>46674109
Way to prove my point.
>>46674173
That most GMs are weak willed tissues that fold to any argument from a power gaming neckbeard?
>>46674109
>I'll go against the rules to force balance
I mean, it's great if you do it, but again...that doesn't mean the game is badly designed, in fact it proves it, if GMs have to do shit against the system to maintain equality that means the system has problems of inequality
>>46674214
>power gaming
But he described completely normal mage activities.
If rolling up a wizard counts as powergaming, then the game is broken.
>>46674214
That special considerations need to be made in order to balance the Wizard vs. the Rogue or Fighter.
Not that anon, just wanted to make sure everyone sees through the ridiculous strawman.
>>46674109
>Casting knock kicks you out of invisibility
It doesn't
>Wizard loses him class levels and mind while in hydra form
No it doesn't
>The room and building collapses
With 20d6 damage? not even if it was entirely built with wood
...oh, wait, sorry, I get what you mean, you want to keep everybody on a similar level even if you have to obviously change rules, yeah, that works and it should be encouraged...but wouldn't that mean the system is flawed?
Also I hope you inform your casters of how magic works in your world, because if not that would be a dick move.
>Knock spell is powergaming
>Fireball is powergaming
Pfffhahahahahahahahahahahaha
>>46674109
>20d6
>Averages at 70 damage
>Enough to collapse a room
...dude, a fucking wooden beam has like 400 HPs, the fuck are you into?
>>46673048
Are you retarded or trolling? I'm seriously controlled for your mental well being.
What is the primary, major thing magic users can do? Cast spells. If you change or weaken these spells, then you weaken the magic ysers. Unless you are seriously implying that any other secondary ability a magic user might have, like creating potions or identifying magic items, is the real way magic users are over powered. However I don't know what you're trying to argue because every single post you've created doesn't address anything nor attempt to answer my concerns at all. Your entire four paragraph post literally did and accomplished nothing. You have no argument. Until you prove otherwise I will list you as a troll.
>>46673295
I don't see so. Remove spells like teleportation and fly. Give magic users things like curses or illusions or spells that directly give an advantage to the other party members.
The idea that just because a Wizard is weaker means the other party members are also weaker because of it isn't fucking them over at all. If the magic user is that essential to team comp then he's already way to powerful.
Maybe the real solution is to actually be a good GM, give and allow multiple mundane solutions to problems and limit magic user power. What mind of extreme high fantasy garbage setting are you playing where Wizards can just fly and let other people fly regularly?
>>46674308
Well those were just examples. If he tries to fly invisible while raining down lightning bolts from heaven I'll cut that shit out in a heartbeat. If the Druid decides to summon a bear army while transformed into a bear and has a bear companion I'll just give the fighter his own army. Or veto the Druid taking that feat or that spell.
>>46674356
If you don't account for the fact that throwing around 70 fire damage in a wooden building would do some fucking massive structural damage I don't know what to tell you. Except that you're not thinking logically.
>>46674525
>Or veto the Druid taking that feat or that spell.
Ladies and gentlemen, the mythical fix for 3.x: cut class features. Next up, balancing the Wizard by removing all spellcasting.
>>46674490
>What is the primary, major thing magic users can do? Cast spells. If you change or weaken these spells, then you weaken the magic ysers
Have fun working your way through that long-ass list of spells, yo.
>>46674525
>Structural damage
Ruleswise you'll destroy furniture and doors, but you'll deal almost jack shit to beams, colums, walls, ceiling, etc.
In fact that guy was wrong, wooden beams have 540 hps.
>>46674554
Not cutting his class features. Cutting the overpowered caster feats or spells. It's like cutting out the .5 AE desert eagle in a James Bond game because everyone would use it for the damage and not the traditional p226.
>>46674595
I am the GM. I rule that a wooden beam hates power gaming wizards and falls at-will. Fuck wizards and fuck you.
>3.5 is balanced
>Oh, you have to ban this and that, and this, and remove that, and limit this and weaken those
>But this totally doesn't count
>>46674490
>What mind of extreme high fantasy garbage setting are you playing where Wizards can just fly and let other people fly regularly?
In D&D, you hit like 6th level and Fly is pretty common.
>>46668933
>Most , if not all 3.5 players moved
What is the PF general.
Really, I don't know why people on /tg/ want to pronounce it dead when it, in one form or another, is still the 2nd most popular roleplaying game, just after 5e.
I get it, that we should just all move on to 5e, but implying anyone hates it except a minority of angry people who are upset that a popular game somehow still remains more popular than their pet systems is a bit of a joke.
>>46669748
Well to be fair rogue is outshined in its areas of expertise by other classes that do those things as a side job.
>>46674617
>Fireball
>Powergaming
Top kek
>>46674525
You are missing what people are arguing about.
Nobody is saying wizards SHOULD be able to do that. They're complaining BECAUSE they are able to do it.
Then there is apparently a second problem in your group because you're adamant about fucking anybody in the ass who's using a legal ability if somebody else in the party doesn't have that ability.
>>46674621
>3.5e is fun
>You just can't play monks, barbarians, fighters, rogues, etc.
>>46674646
I'm changing it because it completely nullifies everyone else's class. What would you do if one person was playing someone who could shoot 20d6 damage out of his ass 20/day when there's a person specialized in melee damage who can do 4d6 damage all day?
Just ban all t2+ classes.
>>46674617
Shapeshifting, Animal Companion, and Summon Nature's Ally. All baked right in to the Druid class.
You're talking hypotheticals, when there's very real books of a very real game system with very real classes that outstrip other classes from the word go, no minmaxing or fuckery needed. So, once again: PLAY ANOTHER SYSTEM, or come to terms with the fact that it's broken -- and better minds than you have spent decades trying to fix it as a day job and failed.
>>46674678
>I'm changing it
You're not changing it though.
You're just fucking with him. Disallowing him from learning fireball is changing the system.
Making fireball collapse a building on his head because FUCK YOU is fucking with him.
>What would you do
Play a different system. That's the entire point of everybody who's arguing with you. The system is broken.
>>46674692
I actually ban all T1s and T5s and below. Tier 2, 3 and 4 can make it.
>>46674699
Then what else can I play that has as many character design options as pathfinder but isn't GURPS?
>>46674716
If he isn't combo-spelling to win every encounter by himself I won't have to stomp on his wizard so other people can play.
>>46668572
Wands, Pearls, Scrolls... anytime you need 'em.
>>46674747
>if the fighter insists on wearing multiple protection items at the same time then I MUST punish him for that.
>a breast plate should be plenty. Putting on a helm is pure powergaming.
That's how you sound.
Using what you have isn't powergaming. It's just common sense.
>>46674779
You aren't understanding what I'm saying. If the wizard ends every encounter himself that's when I step in as a arbitrager of the game and end that shit so the other 3 or 4 players can do something in the game. If he keeps his wand in his pants and let's the others do their things (fighter gets buffed and goes into melee, rogue picks the locks and sneaks, cleric heals and does additional buffs) then there won't be a problem.
>>46674109
>I'll blatantly cheat because players creatively making use of their abilities is the problem and not the rules failing to account for this repeatedly! BALANCE RESTORED!
OK, if we're playing this game, what exactly is keeping the rogue from stepping on a loose floorboard with a DC Impossible perception check to notice it and alerting everyone to his presence? The GM's good humor? Because that's been established as the only thing that allows anything to succeed in this setup.
>>46674843
>The GM balances the game so everyone can have fun via rule 0
>NO HE'S CHEATING
You are retarded
>>46674870
>Your ability doesn't do that.
>The rules say it does. Are we playing by the rules?
>No, we're playing by my rules, which change arbitrarily and without warning whenever you do something I don't think you should.
Yeah, no.
>>46674729
Rifts. FantasyCraft. 2nd edition D&D. Earthdawn. Die Schwarz Auge.
>>46674838
>You aren't understanding what I'm saying.
I do understand what you are saying. I'm saying you're wrong.
>If the wizard ends every encounter himself
Then that's not his fault.
One could blame the encounter for being too weak, but making it tougher would only mean that the other characters are completely useless because they can't deal with 3 headed dragons yet.
The problem is that the wizard is too powerful, not that the wizard is using his power.
>that's when I step in as a arbitrager of the game
No, that's too late.
He already acquired all this power. If you stop him now (and every time he wants to use his rightful abilities) you are just fucking with him. You should have changed the fucking system so that it would never have come to this.
>If he keeps his wand in his pants
"if he doesn't use his rightful abilities"
But why wouldn't he?
Just because he should be fair to the other adventurers? This makes 0 sense in character.
>>46674870
Maybe it isn't "cheating" but it's a dick move if you don't explain this beforehanded to your players, also you're doing it the wrong way, weaken the spells if you think magic is too strong, don't fucking Damocles' sword your players, that's being a fucking cunt.
>>46674838
>If the wizard ends every encounter himself that's when I step in as a arbitrager of the game and end that shit so the other 3 or 4 players can do something in the game
There are two ways of doing this. The right way is to talk with the wizard player like an adult and gett him to rein that shit in. The wrong way is to be That GM like you.
>>46674870
>The GM balances the game so everyone can have fun via rule 0
Balancing the game with houserules isn't the problem. Balancing the game with shitty, ill-thought out houserules that make no sense and self-admitted inconsistent rulings is.
>>46674905
>Wizard: Okay so I mind control the bar wenches to such my enlarged 20" cock and then cast hold person on the bartender so he has to watch. Then cast empowered chain lightning to kill everyone else in the bar (including the other player characters) while taking a shit.
>GM: no
>>46674870
>everyone can have fun
That's where your premise falls apart. Mother-may-I gaming is rarely fun. This is why narrativist games have blown the fuck up - player agency.
>>46674870
>The GM balances the game so everyone can have fun via rule 0
But the anon in question isn't doing that, he's being a passive-aggressive fuckhead.
>>46674490
Wow, there is so much wrong here, I actually need a minute to comb through the retardation.
Hold up.
>I don't see so.
Because you don't understand what such an order would entail.
>Remove spells like teleportation and fly.
Those spells aren't even the most busted shit a caster can do, even then, they're spells that are integral to the party's combat capabilities since at that point, most enemies you'll be fighting will either be flying or fighting from an elevated plane.
If you consider teleportation and fly to be spells worth removing then lord help you once you do some research and learn about the supreme fuckery that awaits a decently leveled caster who knows what they're doing.
>Give magic users things like curses or illusions or spells that directly give an advantage to the other party members.
The issue with that is that once you've reached a certain level, monsters will have more and more ways to bypass illusions and curses only really matter in the long-term.
Like, a cursed amulet that saps 1d6 from you isn't going to matter to a creature that's only designed to survive an encounter but on a PC that's not supposed to die after a turn or two, it can be really really bad.
Also, are you removing spells from creatures that can also cast spells like a wizard/cleric/druid? Because that's another angle to consider since the game's assuming that the party that's fighting them are also has access to the same list of spells.
>The idea that just because a Wizard is weaker means the other party members are also weaker because of it isn't fucking them over at all.
The fact that you're removing spells and limiting their functions means that the party has less ways of overcoming most encounters that were designed to be fought by a party with casters.
>If the magic user is that essential to team comp then he's already way to powerful.
You finally understand.
1/?
>>46674870
>The GM balances the game so everyone can have fun
>everyone can have fun
>while the wizard is fucked over time and time again
>>46674962
He is. He is stopping a overpowered wizard from screwing over the entire campaign and you spergs are accusing him of being a That Guy because he wants the other players to have agency.
>>46674943
Are you equating that to the wizard using Fireball?
>>46675003
nice bait
here's your (you)
>>46675003
He gave the wizard player a Swiss Army knife, then told him he can't use half the attachments on a rotating, arbitrary basis. HE'S A FUCKING THAT GM.
The solution, yet again, is to not play a busted system.
>>46674978
>The wizard can kill only 1/4 of the enemies per round instead of 3/4
>Wahhhh Wahhhh nerfing fuckhead GM!
>>46674870
The GM is still a player. Rule 0 is one thing, but "bluff doesn't work the way it says it does because I say so, and I am under no obligation to warn you about this ahead of time" is quite another.
When you start making shit up, including breaking the rules that give the players their understanding of HOW THEIR CHARACTERS WORK, there is no longer any frame of reference for cause and effect. The whims of the GM are all that matter anymore.
The dragon could have six billion HP, because the GM says so and he doesn't want anyone to kill it.
A spell might do the exact opposite of what it says it does, because the GM feels like it.
Using a combination of skills in a way the GM didn't expect might arbitrarily backfire for no reason, because the DCs you successfully met in the rulebook are different from the DCs in the head of your GM, which he will not share with the rest of the class if called on it.
The rules are how the players understand how anything works in this setting. If you change them randomly and without warning, you are not playing Dungeons and Dragons, you're playing magical storytime hour and might as well throw your dice away.
>ITT: another 3.5e argument over wizards and a literal fucking strawman player who is either "just playing the game" or "ruining the campaign"
3.5 was a mistake
>>46675042
But that's not what he did.
If he gave the player rules like that it would be one thing.
But he described collapsing houses on him.
>M-MUH RULE 0: the thread
jesus fuck you sperglords are getting glazed in That Guy GM jizz rn
GM fiat is a lazy way of excusing the ways in which a game is fundamentally flawed instead of doing the smart thing and playing a better game
>>46675046
>The GM is still a player.
The GM is the fucking GM. The rest of your bitchfit is irrelevant due to this blatant lie. Also having self control to not abuse the GM power is essential to being a GM. Otherwise you won't have any players left at he end of a session.
>>46675046
>Okay wizard. You can't have "win button #43" because it's overpowered.
>WAAAH WAAAH THIS ISNT D AN D I WANT MY SPELLS WAAAH WAAH THIS IS FREEFORM THEN AND I WIN FUCK YOU
>>46675046
>the GM is still a player
no the GM the one RUNNING THE GAME
it's like saying "the umpire is still a player"
are you retarded lad
>>46675003
He's stepping too late and becoming a that guy, if he wants to stop the wizard, stop the wizard BEFORE THE GAME STARTS, not during the game with arbitrary rules you just came up WITHOUT telling to your players, that's being a fucking dick
D&D is a cooperative game not only between players, but between GM and players, everybody should know the rules even if there're homerules, if suddnely knock spell reduces your HPs to half and you didn't tell this to your wizard players that's a fucking dick move, and even if it fixes something, it turns you into a That GM.
Fucking talk to your players first! and if possible reach a fucking consensus on the tone and powerlevel.
>>46675077
How is "I'm going to change how fireball interacts with the room you're in to punish you for casting it" or making a nonsensical ten-door corridor that serves no purpose but to fuck over the guy who prepared Knock not abusing GM power?
>>46674490
prev. comment >>46674968
>Maybe the real solution is to actually be a good GM, give and allow multiple mundane solutions to problems and limit magic user power.
The issue is that not every encounter is going to be solved via a mundane solution and dumb luck.
Every martial requires magical arms/armor just to stay even somewhat relevant come higher levels, in fact, I'd argue that martials depend on magic just as much as a caster does since so many creatures are capable of ignoring/bypassing mundane defenses like AC or have additional defenses that require magical weapons that bypass DR/Hardness or DR/alignment.
>What mind of extreme high fantasy garbage setting are you playing where Wizards can just fly and let other people fly regularly?
DnD 3.5, which is coincidentally where most of this bullshit originated from.
Seriously, either accept that 3.PF is flawed or just don't play it.
>>46675111
>Knock spell uses vocal components
>Casting a spell can be classified as an attack action
>Warning the player that casting knock whole invisible will cancel the invisibility spell is cheating
Millenials ruin everything
>>46675104
>>Okay wizard. You can't have "win button #43" because it's overpowered.
Everybody here is telling you that changing the rules is completely within a GM's rights. But only coherently and not arbitrarily when you feel he's making the other characters look bad.
Tell him ahead of time what Fireball does.
Tell him ahead of time that Knock breaks invisibility.
Otherwise you're just fucking with him.
>>46674917
>Die Schwarz Auge
Das Schwarze Auge
>>46675128
Why does the wizard have to infiltrate the castle himself and prepare nothing but knock and invisibility when there's a rogue in the party with Max ranks in stealth and lock pick that would like to fucking use them? The wizard player is more of a that guy in that situation.
>>46675148
Knock, by rules, doens't cancel invisibily. You might change it in your games, but fucking tell the player first, faggot.
Also, try harder next time.
>>46675162
Damn, can never remember whether or not to add the E.
>>46675148
those darn milennials not playing aging terrible games
>>46675173
Wouldn't it be preferable to go "C'mon, man, you have a rogue for this. Work with him," to "OK, you can do that, and I will, without warning you, change how those spells work just to mess with you for attempting"?
>>46675196
Just call it The Dark Eye.
Das Schwarze Auge literally means Black Eye, so they changed the name for the international audience.
>>46675179
Why wouldn't knock cancel out invisibility? You are basically casting a spell (which combat spells break invisibility). Why should here be a difference between casting knock on a door and casting shocking grasp on a sleeping guard?
>>46675173
"Because," the wizard, argues, "time is of the essence. I am faster than you."
>>46675212
because the rules say it doesn't
>GM, can I play this?
>Yes
>And can I pick this?
>Yes
>Are you sure?
>Yes
>Ok, I'm going to cast this spell
>HAHAHA!, you lose 100 HPs, and you summon a devil who fucks you in the ass for 1001 years, that will show you not to play that class, you powergaming faggot!
This is somehow a good GM it seems
>Can I play this?
>Sure, but this and that work different now, I'll show you
>Ok, I'll still play it
This is somehow an awful GM
I think I'm in bizarreverse, and I don't like it
>>46675203
>That GM comes back and says he would warn the player about knock kicking out invisibility
>Still people saying he gave no warning
I told you I would give warning. Sheesh you faggots are having a hard on for wizard rights.
>>46675212
Because the rules differentiate that attack spells break invisibility and non-attack spells don't?
If you're going to change that rule, fucking warn someone you're doing so. That makes it a houserule instead of the GM fucking with you out of nowhere.
>>46675003
No, he's doing his best to make sure the wizard player is punished with NOFUNALLOWED for playing a wizard with even a modicum of intelligence.
>>46675212
It's the fucking rules.
You're welcome to change them.
But tell people first.
>>46675226
The rules say it does (rule 0 is used to adjust rulings that don't make sense, such as casting spells while invisible doesn't end being invisible).
>>46675233
You mean, you'd warn him in the castle or have you actually already reworked all the spells?
>>46675212
One's an inanimate object that cannot theoretically dodge an attack (which is why it has hardness rather than HP) while the other is a living creatures that could theoretically dodge the attack even with penalties to their AC if the player rolls low or crit fails.
That and knock doesn't cause damage while shocking grasp does.
>>46675233
then he wouldn't be put in that situation and the point is moot
you dumb idiot
>>46675104
Go fuck yourself with a rake. The problem is precisely him not doing that, and instead passive-aggressively killing the wizard because the player in question isn't a fucking telepath.
>>46675251
>Don't make sense
Subjetive as fuck, but anyway, INFORM YOUR PLAYERS FIRST!
>I drink a healing potion because I'm at 4 HPs
>Oh sorry, anon, now healing potions kill you...so your character is dead
>Y-you didn't tell me this before
>Lol rule 0
>>46675242
>>46675234
>>46675226
>Okay so I cast this complicated and intricate spell with ingredients and incantations to set up a grease trap
>Fine. You're still invisible.
>Okay so I cast this complicated and intricate spell with ingredients and incantations to sneak attack the guard with shocking grasp.
>Fine. You're no longer invisible.
This makes no sense.
>>46675251
rule 0 is the last refuge of a desperate aspergers-sufferer
>>46675306
>This makes no sense.
Neither does armor in DnD.
So?
Some rules just need to be accepted - or changed ahead of time.
>>46675304
That is nothing like the knock invisible issue. Healing potions heal. Casting spells only knocks you out of invisibility if you use them on non-creatures while if any part of the spell's effect accidentally hits a creature you jump out of invisibility.
>>46675306
>trap
>traps aren't designed to be set up in secret
>magically setting traps wouldn't maintain stealth by design
>TH-THIS MAKES NO SENSE
what's it like being this retarded
>>46674525
>Didn't read how much hp structures have
>Still acting this pompous
You gotta be trolling
>>46675306
>This makes no sense.
A lot of stuff doesn't make sense because magic, that's why there're some rules. Intent being one of them, one is an attack, the other isn't, attacks remove invisibility (unless greater invisibility) because your intent is to attack someone. This isn't even new.
>>46675306
The rules for full attacks don't make a lick of sense either. Welcome to 3.X. If you change something to make more sense, put it in a document the players can read ahead of time so someone doesn't try to do something you want the rules to forbid because the rules say it does work that way before you step in.
Rule 0 should be used sparingly, and fucking never as a "gotcha" tool when someone does something that annoys you. GMs that overuse rule 0 can lose player trust very quickly.
>>46675345
No, knock wouldn't do shit even if you use it on a creature BECAUSE IT ISN'T AN ATTACK. You're free to change it, but at least read the fucking manual and inform your players first.
Anons. You are wrong. If I tell the wizard player he cannot solo the castle raid mission because it would be logical that his invisibility would end when casting a spell it means I'm being fair to the other players. How would you like it if every time something came up in-game the wizard left for 20 minutes and came back with all the loot, exp, and fame without you how would that make you feel? Besides. Wizards need to be needed heavily.
>>46675385
>it would be logical that what the rules say isn't actually what the rules say, the products of my autism-addled mind trump them
ok
>>46673996
What is Schrodinger's Wizard?
>Informing players of arbitrary non-logical changes you did
Plebs, all of you.
>>46675385
>If I tell the wizard player he cannot solo the castle raid mission because it would be logical that his invisibility would end
That's better, but still very late.
He already learned the spell, he already memorized it. You should have made that rule way before.
>How would you like it if every time something came up in-game the wizard left for 20 minutes and came back with all the loot, exp, and fame without you how would that make you feel?
And that's why people are telling you the system is broken and you need to either fix it or switch to something else.
>>46675382
If the door opens and hits a creature that is an attack so it knocks out of invisibility. If the door opening does a single point of damage to anything in the local area it's considered an attack. If he steps on a bug that is considered an attack against the bug and he is knocked out of invisibility. If his steps crush the mold spores in the air that is considered an attack. If his white blood cells destroy a bacteria that is considered an attack. I could go on.
>>46675413
Schrodinger's Wizard is the theoretical wizard that has the perfect spell for every eventuality they will come across, and contingencies for days.
It is, by and large, an exaggeration of what the wizard is capable of, but given that the wizard spell list has a solution to nearly any imaginable problem the GM can throw at you on it SOMEWHERE, not as big an exaggeration as it should be.
>>46675413
Has his spell slots undefined until he needs a particular spell.
>>46675385
https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Antimagic_Field_(3.5e_Spell)
>>46675413
I presume "having everything whenever they need it".
>>46675442
You've never played DnD and you're just stirring a thread for laughs.
>>46675442
>this rules lawyering
>>46675431
>you need to either fix it or switch to something else.
I'm trying to fix it. But whenever I try to adjust a single thing to balance the wizard (such as casting spells while invisible ends invisibility) everyone goes apeshit and calls bullshit. How can you fix a game when everyone is against fixing it?
>>46675442
Woah, remind me to never play with you, ever.
>>46675473
>I'm trying to fix it.
No you aren't. You're just beating up the wizard whenever the opportunity arises.
Go sit down and rework all the spells NOW.
Don't do it when he's in action and you realize he doesn't need the rest of the team.
>>46675473
play a new game instead you stupid fuck
>>46675492
I'm doing it now. The entire theoretical wizard-solo-castle-raid scenario was an example of altered rules but EVERYONE took it as if I was actively fucking over the person who can change reality at-will with no downsides.
So the gist I got from this is: "Change the rules if you like but before actually starting so they can rework their characters, never once the game has already started", right?
>Gary Gygax can't comprehend why anyone would want to play a wizard
30ish years later:
>Monte Cook can't comprehend why anyone would want to play a fighter
Circle of life.
>>46675473
>How can you fix a game when everyone is against fixing it?
Are you literally retarded?
Nobody in this thread is defending the wizard's power. What we are defending is the player's right to play his character as he has been informed the character works.
Stop being an asshole.
As a dude who played wizards, of course you'll never have the best spell for every situation, but you'll have the second or third spell for every situation if you aren't brain dead, conjuration/transmutation wizard is so fucking good and has so many options, it's fucking absurd. If GM allows me to play wizards I always play as the "last resort" character, you know, so the rest can shine...unless shit hits the fan and they can't deal with the situation, then I save the day.
If GM doesn't allow such classes, then I don't need to "hinder" myself like that. Thank god I don't play 3.PF that often.
>>46675521
Exactly. But everyone in this thread assumed he was doing this as the game progressed instead of, you know, when he was reading the "how to build a wizard guide" and banning every spell and feat that came up purple.
>>46675518
but that is what you're doing
you have this fucking ridiculous mentality that the wizard can "change reaity at-will with no downsides" and that it's your holy mission as the king sperg DM to make sure he's not allowed to do anything but stand behind the melee fighters and cast magic missile
>>46675518
>EVERYONE took it as if I was actively fucking over the person who can change reality at-will with no downsides.
You are fucking stupid.
That's how you described it.
>>46675521
this shouldn't even have to be explained, at all.
>>46675442
>>46675521
Basically.
If you have a set of houserules your players can read, then they know that in THIS version of D&D, casting spells at all while invisible will reveal them, and so they won't do that.
If you do that once the game has already started, especially once a player has cast invisibility on himself and is now casting a spell because the rules say he can do so, you have bushwhacked your players and they will trust your judgement less. Players like to have a decent idea of cause and effect when they're playing, and they get that from the rules. The rules should not change on the fly, so change them ahead of time and make this knowledge available to your players.
>>46675521
You can change minor details after the game has started, but not arbitrarily.
You'd better discuss it with the rest of the group first.
>>46675473
When you started that game the player had no idea he/she would be arbitrarily fucked in the ass by complete nonsense for using their spellbook as intended. That is the problem, what you call "fixing" is actually just slapping things out of the players hands because you were too stupid to know the system you wanted to play in beforehand. If you're going to fuck someone, usually you preface it by taking them on a date or buying them a drink, you don't just ram your cock in and then tell them your desire to court them after the fact.
What's so wrong about being knocked out of invisibility while casting spells? It makes sense and D&D rulings were retarded to begin with. Such examples being Pun-Pun, Codzilla, peasant railgun, and the caster supremacy that needs to be fix but can never be touched after the balance issues arise or else the GM is hitler and the players are just precious little angels that can do no wrong (instead of the little dipshits they are).
B-but if you inform your players first then you can't caught them by surprise and kill their PCs easier...
>>46675634
>comparing something written clearly in the rules to Pun-Pun
4/10 bait
here's your (you)
>>46675634
>What's so wrong about being knocked out of invisibility while casting spells?
Nothing.
You misunderstand the problem.
>>46675634
>What's so wrong about being knocked out of invisibility while casting spells?
Is not "wrong", as long as you know that is going to happen before the game starts.
>>46675614
>Player A has a machine gun and medium armor.
>Player B has constant access to nuclear missile launchers and a heavy armor mech suit, but can only use either 5 times a day.
>GM balances player B to have a grenade launcher and light armor
>GM is not fair.
>>46675634
Because if you don't warn your player about that they really can't trust you not to go "oh, btw, guys, lava is an instant kill in my setting because that's way more realistic. I only realize now I probably should've mentioned that before you went to the red dragon's volcanic lair."
>>46675442
White blood cells? What kind of sorcery is that?
>>46675646
Just make a houserule that all wizards are automatically wild mages.
>>46668603
I don't know but my group plays it from time to time for its flaws. Basically to get our special snowflake super power fantasies out of our systems. That's the only reason to still play and it should never be taken seriously.
>>46675634
>I have literally never played DnD but gimme replies please
Why are people actually replying to this?
>>46675634
Because you're using rule 0 to justify springing aribitrary restrictions on how something works long after the player had already begun a plan on the assumption that the spells would work as per the rules as written.
There's nothing wrong with changing how a particular spell functions but for the love of christ, give them the heads up before they commit themselves to a plan that you've already decided will fail at the penultimate step.
Also, shit like pun-pun and peasant railgun operate off of assumptions made by how poorly the rules are written. What you're doing is changing the rules without warning and getting defensive when people call you out on your faggotry.
>>46675684
If you aren't friends with your players then the game is going to suck regardless.
>>46675680
>GM doesn't tell player B that he's been 'balanced' until he tries to launch the nukes
>"Actually, you fire your grenade launcher into the wall and tear your own face apart with shrapnel."
>GM is fair and has fixed the game.
>>46675680
>Oh, oops, should I have told you about that before you went into the fight?
>>46675688
BURN THE WITCH!
>>46675709
So how can you balance wizards without touching anything the wizard can do without a warning sixteen months in advance?
>>46675680
>Players make their characters
>You allow Player A to have a machine gun and medium armor
>You also allow Player B to have constant access to nuclear missile launchers and heavy armor mech suit 5 times a day
>During the game you go "you know what? no, you now have a grenade launcher and light armor"
That's actually being a dick
>>46675743
So you would support someone munchkining a point it system to the point he's 8x stronger than the entire party combined because "He should get to play any character he wants"?
>>46675680
>Want to gamemaster
>look at a system with a class that has access to nukes and space-age technology while everyone else is running around with WW1 weaponry
>decide, "yeah, this'll do!"
>player picks the class that has access to nukes and space-age technology
>player uses nukes, according to the rulebook and as described by his class
>uh actually, you just fired a spud from a potato gun, the guard looks angered by your display and shoots your testicles off
>go on /tg/ and boast of my incredible balancing prowess
>everyone calls me stupid, prove them correct numerous times
>>46675739
You don't.
Once you've started with a rule set, you stick to it.
Play your next campaign with new characters and a new ruleset.
>>46671391
Do you realize how fucking long that would take to do properly?
I have yet to hear of any fix that doesn't involve going through the entire spell list and tweaking or removing a ton of them, and that would take way more time than I can reasonably spare when there are good alternatives.
>>46675739
You DON'T. Unless you want to overhaul the entire fucking spellbook, you cannot possibly balance the fucking wizard without being a fucking douchefuck about it. This is why the "PLAY ANOTHER SYSTEM RETARD" argument is so prevalent, especially with 3.pf
>>46675765
Okay. Then end the campaign as soon as the imbalance occurs and start a new one?
>>46675757
I'd tell him before the game starts to change his character to fit the rest of the group, not during the game, in the middle of the combat, just after he used his ability, that now totally backfired in his face, you dick.
>>46675757
>So you would support someone munchkining a point it system to the point he's 8x stronger than the entire party combined
No.
But that's YOUR fault for allowing it in the first place.
You can't reverse that in the middle of the game.
>>46675739
House rules can be established between sessions, although you are a fool if you do this without consulting your players.
>"Listen, Greg, it's looking like stealth missions are getting way too easy for your wizard the way the rules are written now, so I'm going to be introducing these changes. I hope you understand."
vs
>"What? The rules say the spell works like that? Bullshit! ...Huh. You're right. But I'm the GM, so you can't do that."
>>46675761
>Want to gamemaster
>player picks wizard
>player chooses a bunch of spells
>game starts
>player tries to cast a spell
>"Uh, no magic isn't real. You're a level 1 commoner. The goblin stabs you in the sternum and you bleed to death."
>truly i am a master of balance
>>46675785
>Then end the campaign as soon as the imbalance occurs
I don't think you'll ever have perfect balance.
Just stop when people stop having fun.
>>46675739
By either accepting that the rules are so poorly written that they require 16 months warning to properly balance and running it anyways or just playing another game where magic doesn't overshadow mundanes to the point where their presence is no longer required.
It's not rocket science m'boy. There are plenty of systems out there that balances magical abilities with mundane abilities to a point and don't require the commitment that 3.PF asks of you.
>>46675809
But that's exactly what would happen in that scenario with knock and invisibility. The wizard is ruining the rogue's time by outclassing him at his main class abilities and can still out damage the fighter when combat comes around.
>>46675834
I'm not doubting that.
But you can't just fuck him over because his legal character is too overpowered now.
>>46675799
>Be anon
>Go on 4chan
>Someone disagrees with me!
>Better make a straw man fallacy that makes OP look even worse.
>I contributed nothing to the conversation.
Is there any reason why the wizard and rogue in this hypothetical aren't sneaking in together
Like a party would
Or is everyone just too busy stroking their dick over being the better rules lawyer
>>46675809
Balancing by nerfing brings nothing but strife.
If this kind of issue ever arise in my pathfinder games, I give cool shit to the martials instead.
It makes the game ridiculously high magic but that's pathfinder for you.
Traveller night is on tuesdays if you want a less wacky gaming experience.
Alright so 3.5 and Pathfinder are broken, what system is balanced then?
>>46675799
One day I'm totally going to do that.
I'm not sure yet if I'll just play it off as a joke 5 seconds later. But I'll totally do it.
>>46675857
>be anon
>go on 4chan
>someone's making fun of me!
>F-F-FALLACIES
>N-N-N-N-NONPRODUCTIVE
>screaming and shitting all over computer chair
>mommy has to call the special care workers to give me the sleepytime medicine
>>46675854
That's exactly what I can do. He will understand that he cannot go and solo entire missions and still expect me to ignore the other players. Now if he takes along the rogue and vhurns out nothing but invisibility that would be different.
>>46675891
>That's exactly what I can do.
And that's exactly why we're calling you a THAT DM.
>>46675834
If you're that hard up on everyone having fun and not being overshadowed because "lol magic xD" then why did you decide to play 3.PF in the first place?
It's like making a F.A.T.A.L. campaign and complaining about how there's a stat for anal circumference.
>>46675891
>i can fuck him over if i want
>GUYYYYS STOP SAYING I'M THAT GUYYYYYYY
>>46675891
You can also rocks fall every 5 minutes, and ask for 1000 pages backstory as the GM, that doesn't mean you aren't a cunt.
>>46675912
Good thing I GM an entirely different category of pen and paper. Thanks for the (you)s though. :^)
>>46675931
>joke's on you because i have no fucking idea what i'm talking about!
>get tricked fagit!
>>46674572
I've done it before and I'll do it again.
>>46674968
>>46675132
Ok, I see where you're coming from now.
Originally from the first post, I was more trying to defend the basic roll vs AC, roll for skills add modifiers, etc. The very basic mechanics of DnD I thought you were attacking, not the actual games other parts, like the monsters, magic item, spells, etc.
Basically I don't think there us anything wrong with using basic DnD but changing things you don't like or clash with the setting. I was never a fan of 3.pf and I usually play in lower powered world's so mundane warriors are matched with witches and sorcerers, not ridiculous god wizards.
But my point still stand, change the spells and better balance the encounters if you want to 'fix' dnd. Just house rule everything
>>46675907
>>46675918
>>46675926
If you all could look ahead one sentence instead of greentexting and giving epic one-liner replies, you'd see the context of isn't "fucking him over because i have a power boner", it's telling the hypothetical player to stuff a sock in it for trying to run things solo, trivialize other players, and power through everything himself.
Giving a player right of way because "It's legal" isn't being a good DM.
>>46675442
>I could go on.
It actually seems more like you MUST go on. Who hurt you, Anon?
>>46675984
it doesn't matter why you're doing it
you're doing it when there are other, better, less-cunty ways to do it
fucking a player over midgame because of "muh rule 0" isn't being a good DM either
>>46675984
Thank you for seeing the logic. Don't know who
>>46675931
Is.
>>46675984
Sorry, but if something is legal in your table and people use it, and then you fuck them over using it, then you are a cunt for tricking your players.
>>46676013
>>46676015
>Player B can ruin the entire campaign because of a mistake in chargen
>GM cannot recton it without destroying all trust in the group and becoming worse than hitler
>>46676037
>GM can't retcon something in the midst of a game without being viewed as an incompetent shitbaby
>p-poor widdle me!!!! i j-just want to balance the game!!!!
>>46675984
If he "legally", understood as withing your homerules, can run solo without problems, why wouldn't he? we're talking about adventurers betting their neck on life and death missions, if A can do everything without noone risking their life why wouldn't he? No that I support this kind of game, but if your homerules allow this means you might think is an ok thing to do.
If he "legally" can't, he'll learn the bad way he can't, known as dying. I'd inform him that he's not as powerful as he might think first though, becasue I'm not a dick.
The fuck are you even arguing about?
>>46672892
>It's okay to sell someone a flat tire because patches exist
>>46676091
>No that I support this kind of game,
Neither does the GM. So he is stopping that. If the Wizard wants to go solo run things he can roll up a new character that will run with the party.
>>46676037
>I can't wait till the session ends to make some changes
Also, if you made the mistake of leaving something powerful enough the ruin the entire campaign, well, maybe it's your fault.
>>46675979
>But my point still stand, change the spells and better balance the encounters if you want to 'fix' dnd. Just house rule everything
You can't houserule busted rules into being passable, or at least, you can't without dedicating more time and energy than it's worth.
>Tim Kask is the reason Magic Missile is awesome
Thank you Grandpa Kask.
>>46676140
this is why you just play a different game instead of autistically houseruling a shit game
D&D is trash and has been for at least a solid decade
>>46676120
>Neither does the GM. So he is stopping that.
No, the GM is supporting it, after all those were his homerules and everything the player did was legal.
>>46676095
I dunno, post Condorito.
>>46676170
>GM realizes that X is overpowered
>Too bad. Can't change it.
>X ruins game for everyone besides the wizard.
>It's the GM's fault
>>46676196
English version?
>>46676231
>GM is the one responsible for running the game
>GM is an inattentive shit and realizes too late that something is overpowered
>it's not the GM's fault
>>46676170
>"I use invisibility and do what the rogue was planning to do in a couple minutes"
>"It's legal, lol"
>"I cast Cause Fear on the NPC while you're talking to them"
>"What, it's legal, lol"
>"I'm gonna quick draw and full attack the wizard while his back is turned.
>"Dude, it's totally legal."
Player agency does not step aside for rules, anon.
>>46676169
Then what game is good, mister? It must have Elves for some light erp on the side.
>>46676231
>GM allows broken shit to go past character creation
>GM isn't at fault when the broken shit ruins the campaign.
>>46676257
>He doesn't speak spanish
Isn't like, half the population of your country spics by now?
>>46676258
>GM wants to fix it
>But can't because the player will literally kill himself in anger if it changes
>It's the GM's fault.
>>46676264
Dungeon World, Into the Odd, any of the pared-down simple D&D clones that don't drown themselves in fuckstupid rules, etc.
>>46676261
There's a difference between "C'mon, dude, no" and "OK, now I must change the rules to make the thing you are doing not work and also probably kill you."
>>46676299
>GM wants to fix it
>does so by changing things mid-session and fucking over the player who didn't build their character maliciously
>GM is a true master of balance
>>46676299
>GM allows broken shit to slide
>GM makes the campaign
>GM runs a system that's infamous for how poorly written its rules are
>Somehow, not at fault.
>>46676261
Player agency does step aside if it destroys the other player's agency. I will not allow you to cast fear on the kind while the hard is diplomacy'ing his heart out to keep everyone out of prison. I will not allow you to kill party members. I will not allow you to invalidate other player characters.
>>46676319
Also it can be "ok, this time works, but at the end of the session I'm going to change it because clearly it's broken" instead of "lol, doesn't work like that and it backfires".
And if the spell or whatever is so powerful that it ruins entirely the game and never happened before that moment, srly, fuck the GM for being fucking blind.
>>46676257
Basically, he comes up with a way to make himself white, and goes to tell his nephew (who lives with him) that he can do the same for him. The nephew insists that he wants to stay the way he is, because he doesn't need to be white. He is superior as a black person. Condorito laments that he's barely been white 5 minutes and already he's having problems with black people.
>>46676339
>GM rebalances a thing so the character doesn't automatically win everything
>Character isn't useless and can still contribute
>Is apparently worthless now that he can't 1 spell KO every encounter
>>46676354
>"and the best way to make sure you don't do that is to houserule things in the middle of a session"
>>46676389
>i don't know what "begging the question" is
>>46676354
>He says while running a game where these issues are not only apparent but rooted within its design
Also, if two characters have an IC squabble, why are you stepping in and telling them to play nice?
Does a random NPC come in and sing to them the importance of friendship like some shitty disney movie whenever two sides of the party want to kill each other?
>>46676394
Which would you rather prefer? A recton from a TPK or restarting the campaign.
>>46676421
Here, let me translate it so you can understand.
>Player 1 has eight bullets
>Player 2 has eighteen bullets
>GM changes it so player 2 has eight bullets
>Player 2 complains he is useless even though he is exactly as useful as the other player.
>>46676474
>i STILL don't know what begging the question is
yes, in your ideal scenario where the players are exactly equal to one another because of the GM's perfectly-justified midsession hamstringing, player 2 is wrong to say he's useless
i can freely admit that in this totally different scenario you've constructed where the argument you're making is already correct, your argument is correct
get back to us when you want to join in on the hypothetical everyone else is discussing
>>46676474
Player 2 shouldn't have started with eighteen bullets from the begining, if you allowed him to start with eighteen bullets and change it in midgame you're a dick, do it when the session ends.
>>46676474
>Player 1 has eight .45 caliber bullets
>Player 2 has eighteen .9 caliber bullets
>GM changes it so player 2 has eight bullets
>Doesn't understand why Player 2 is now useless and calls him a bitch when he gets mad.
>>46674678
If your Fighter is only dealing 4d6 damage a round and the wizard can throw Fireball+Quickened Fireball 20 times per day at level 10 there's something seriously wrong with your table, and the system can't help you there.
At level 10 alone (and this is assuming tons of dosh spent on pearls of power and quicken rods), a *defensive specced* NPC Fighter pulled from the SRD does an d8+11 twice.
That's an average of 36 damage *before gear* and goes up to the 50s or 60s with gear easily.
The fireballs do 70 in an aoe, and then need to be either recharged with seventh level pearls of power (lowering dps by half) or no longer quickened (lowering dps by half).
Unless the enemies are hordes, an UNOPTIMIZED fighter comes up on top.
>>46676543
More like
>Player 1 has 8 arrows and a bow
>Player 2 has 18 .50 AE bullets and a desert eagle
>GM balances it so that player 2 has 8 bullets.
>Player 2 complains he is useless because he is killing the same amount of enemies as player 1.
