Can we get a grognard's Games Workshop hate thread going?
Briefly my own, I'm more interested in other people's experiences. I started playing right at the end of 2nd edition. By around 2003, the prices had been jacked up, the older people were leaving the hobby and being replaced by adolescents, the fluff was bowlderized, the specialist games were put out to pasture, and... yeah, I had enough.
All I can do is laugh when I look at 40k today. I am hoping there are still groups out there who exclusively play 2nd and 3rd edition.
Played back in late 90s to very early 2000s. Don't play anymore but do enjoy the schadenfreude watching GW crash and burn.
I'm always amazed when I see kids around here trying to say $100 for thee models isn't that expensive.
Adjusted for inflation, the price of a box of ten space marines has not increased in over ten years, and the quality has grown by a very huge amount.
But guardsmen are 50% more expensive and still use the same shitty old kit.
Just don't be stupid when buying GW products ok?
>>46428640
instead of jacking up the price on old kits, they should have just discontinued them entirely
but grogs gonna nard and if their old ass metal sisters get squatted they will be out for blood.
>>46428715
Bullshit.
The problem is that Orks still got a 20+ year old wartukk, but space marines got several limited edition PLASTIC kits in the meantime.
That's what's wrong.
It's no wonder nobody buys a 20 year old kit anymore. It's become a vicious circle of self fulfilling prophecies caused by terribly shortsighted decisions.
>>46427105
I go back and forth. I started playing just around the 2nd-3rd edition split. There was some good stuff in the years following that. White Dwarf was very active in publishing un-official, un-balanced rules that were FUN and CHARACTERFUL, with a very anti-competitive attitude. Things like Enslaver units, random aggressive local fauna, the Deathworld Veterans list and all that.
I drifted away around the time CSM started being about Renegade Chapters rather than the Legions.
Came back recently, and there's some rules changes that I think are good (moving and shooting makes the game more dynamic than it was in my day, overwatch is a generally good thing, I actually like Allies rules), and some I think are horrid (flyers and super heavies and other Forgeworld type stuff being used and accounted for as a part of the base game, challenges don't make much sense to me, I still hate how cover saves work).
The main thing I dislike is how GW had just become so... blatant about each new army being the best. Back in the day, the articles that ran in White Dwarf when a new army came out would actually take the time to talk about an army's weakness and specifically outline the thought process that went into their design and how they could be balanced with everyone else. Remember when the Dark Eldar and the Imperial Guard LOST their debut battle report? Good times. I also remember them running a rather lovely set of two-three games back to back when an edition of Brettonians came out, one of which was a loss that illustrated the army's weaknesses and how they could be exploited, one was a victory playing to their strengths, and one was kind of 50/50 iirc. It was just a much more gentlemanly way to promote the hobby and encourage people to take a more relaxed and enjoyable approach to it.
Discovered 40k around the time genestealers and terminator marines were new.
Had a beaky or two.
Now look at it. Really. Fuck that shit. Not point spending money on that tired treadmill.
>>46427105
>I started playing right at the end of 2nd edition.
I started playing at the end of 1.5-ish and the start of 2nd edition, and stopped with the release of 3rd. Removing armour save modifiers, removing movement values, there was so many changes that it felt like a complete gutting of the game. Stripping away the rules made things feel too same-y.
There are still groups of people playing older versions of the game (I think "oldhammer" is what you need to be looking for to find them)
>>46431387
Similar story. Started wargaming just prior to Rogue Trader, got properly sucked in with 2nd ed, 3rd killed it for me. It just became so bland and soulless. Some of the new minis have nearly tempted me back but not quite.
40k has nose dived at my club in the last 4 years. Warhams is pretty much dead, seen AoS played exactly once.
sad really as I liked the background and Rick Priestley is a total old school bro.
>>46428715
>grogs gonna nard
"Grognards gonna grogner", anon. It's literally French for "complainer".Actually "grumbler" I think, but the point is complaining.
Started with all my friends and brothers at the start of 2nd ed. We stopped when 3rd came around.
Tried to re-start it at the end of 5th. Played some Vassal with 6th but it's no good. It's tragic really, all the GW settings are fantastic and were purpose built to encourage creativity.
Now it just seems to be firmly under the heel of shortsighted suits who just think if they squeeze the creative teams harder and harder, they get more money. Just like with pretty much every other entertainment industry really.
Nowadays we just talk about it, quietly considering the RPGS.
>>46430122
Uh what? Orks got a new trukk and it's a pretty nice kit.
GW were pretty bad in the period from 2005 to 2013ish? They've been trying to do better since but it's a little hit or miss.
Relative to other model companies and the quality of their models GW are 'okay' though they only survive because of their settings. However when they try to do something new outsiders shun it because they assume GW are a horrible company, and people on the inside don't give a shit about anything except their own tunnel vision interests... which is fine really, but it kind of locks GWs position as those guys who do Warhammer.
On top of that their board games tend to be very expensive, even if the content is good you're not going to find anyone willing to dump however much for Betrayal at Calth when they have to assemble and paint almost 40 models just to start it. Execution Force and Deathwatch have the same issue but are worse value for models.
On the other hand, their Start Collecting sets are quite nice, decent value most of the time and some pretty nice models in the mix, the Age of Sigmar ones especially impressed me. Not enough to make me buy them since I already have tons of models from almost 20 years of having miniatures as a hobby, but they're a good step in the right direction.
7th edition 40k is a pretty alright base ruleset, though the army balance is utterly fucked. I've been nudging at people to play some 3rd ed as I still have the book, but nobody seems interested as they're stuck in a shitty no-fun tournament mindset. There's a fair few people playing Necromunda on and off though.
I think GW has noticed that Forge World has been doing well with the more toned down Horus Heresy expansion. HH also scales better, strangely, despite being more geared towards larger games. Maybe they will unfuck their shit in time, or maybe not. I think buying into Warhammer for the games is utterly ridiculous, you do it because you like the models or not at all.
>>46432622
>the RPGS.
They're fucking awful.
Theres no recapturing the magic. Closest I came was playing some necromunda with the old rules and it still didn't quite scratch the 40k itch. Shame that oldhammer hasn't really picked up with the 40k scene.
>>46428640
>Adjusted for inflation
Dont be a fucking twit anon. Inflation has nothing to do with paying 25 dollars for 10 fucking skeleton models.
>>46433044
>Theres no recapturing the magic
Depends if you have a good GM who likes to invoke the old fluff and go "fuck you GW." Our Rogue Trader game had us deal with making contact with a lost Squat Stronghold and encountering a ship infested with odly inteligent mutant rats.
>>46432730
Necromunda's still dead and I'm still mad about it.
>>46427105
I very rarely play, but when I do, it's 2nd ed. Ive also started teaching Necromunda to my wife.
>>46433258
If anything their margin is even better now with CAD and whatnot
>>46433360
That's not a trukk.
It's just a RADICAL model.
Seriously, though, every range has some ancient pieces, Orks are relatively speaking in a decent spot with a good range of large kits. Aren't the Space Marine bikes from the same time period as well? They're arguably easier to sell than the Wartrak, but still haven't seen any update.
If anything retaining 2nd ed Wartraks should cause joy in Oldhammer players. Hell I miss the old Wartrukks, too, they were cool in their own way. You can bet if it does get an overhaul it will cost at least 50% more and still get shitty rules.
Damnit! this whole thread made me finally go and ebay a second edition starter box!
started in 1995, loved 2nd, got along with 3rd, and everything after felt like a money grab.
>>46434494
It's just a mixed bag. GW tend to take one step forwards, one to either side, and then one back for good measure. They don't really progress anywhere, but still don't stay in quite the same spot they were before.
That one step forwards tends to bring great excitement, the one to the side is a source of confusion, and the last step backwards curbs any enthusiasm that might have flared up.
>>46434396
I said wartrak, although i mispelled the orky spelling of the thing, it's the thing I was talking about.
So don't tell me what I was talking about, dude, please. I posted a fucking picture of what I meant.
>Seriously, though, every range has some ancient pieces,
Yes and that is my whole fucking point. GW should spread the love around. By focusing so much on their big sellers they effectively crippled their ability to market anything else.
>Orks are relatively speaking in a decent spot with a good range of large kits.
During 3rd/4th it took GW ten years to update their dex. Same goes for Dark Eldar. Holy shit they only recently replace the entire range.
>Aren't the Space Marine bikes from the same time period as well?
Nope. The second edition bikes had flat contacts between the legs and the torsos like the plastic kits.
Space Marines on the other hand have a relatively new bike kits (it at least still fits into the range), the DV bikes and the Ravenwing Knights. They got a tactical squad for DA (or an upgrade sprue as they sell it now), a tactical squad for SW, a tactical squad for BA, an upgrade sprue (at the time it came in a boxed set too) for Black Templar and the vanilla one.
I think updating a model as old as this would have been more prudent.
>They're arguably easier to sell than the Wartrak, but still haven't seen any update.
If you want to know how much easier they are to sell just think about what I just said. There are three versions of space marines bikes you can buy atm. Do you really think the fact that the old wartrak still uses the 2nd edition design of orks, that doesn't even have the same anatomy anymore hasn't anything to do with nobody buying the kit?
>>46434610
But GW are spreading the love around, it just so happens that they're not getting around to doing everything at once, and when they do get around to it people just get angry. The Helbrute is a genuinely nice and well-designed kit which finally filled the gap after many years of there not even being a Chaos Dreadnought available at all, and people got pissed off because it is "too different."
Fantasy players whined about Fantasy not getting enough love. Since last summer they've received more love than for the past 5 years before that, but people still aren't happy.
As for Dark Eldar, weren't they redone in like 2010 or something? That's hardly recent anymore.
I don't think anyone really cares about the Wartrak or Warbuggy. There's always been an emphasis on conversion for Orks, and those are probably the two easiest kits to smash together from something else. I'd imagine the Imperial Guard Basilisk to be more popular, and even that thing is an online exclusive now, probably pending a new artillery kit for whenever they get a new codex.
>>46434826
>Fantasy players whined about Fantasy not getting enough love. Since last summer they've received more love than for the past 5 years before that, but people still aren't happy.
I will fucking cut you
>>46434826
Holy shit. This is either the best bait I've seen in a long time or you are genuinely stupid.
Here's your reply.
I see people here complaining about the prices and I have a relevant story.
I play my games at a GW store, I restarted my hobby there after digging out all my old models from childhood and for a while bought my models there until I found about the store around the corner.
The store sold all GW models at 20% off or more, it was part of their advertising. Turns out a ton of the guys at GW were already playing all their games at the store only to buy all their models there on the sly. Gw put all the starter sets out for £50 here only for them go on sale at that store for £40, after browsing what I wanted at the GW I went over there and bought two starter sets for a good £20 saving.
The thing is they're still making tons of money despite taking 20% less from each sale, I talked to the manager and he went on at length about it.
How can producing the models cost GW so much if they can sell it to random stores who in turn sell it at a huge discount and still turn such a big profit?
>>46436033
What comes to pricing policies, GW must either believe that 1. they're still a monopoly so they sell less than demand is for the products for higher prices, 2. that their products are very inelastic which means that high increase in price won't decrease their demand much or that 3. they are completely out of touch with their customers. They obviously aren't a monopoly and there are multiple non GW miniature games around that can substitute for 40k/AoS, unlike ~10 years ago.
I don't know really, it feels absurd how their current state is. Like is their staff so incompetent that they set prices this high expecting it to maximize their profits while in reality it only drives away potential and existing customers. Hasn't their profit / revenue gone down for multiple years in a row now?
aren't some old sculpts being re-released for some of the "start collecting" boxes?
>>46436629
wait no, fuck, I honestly forget what they were called, but you could get like an old ork truk or a dreadnought in a cheaper plastic with some paint pots and shit
>>46427105
Hey anon, so I came in at moments after you did (first thing I got was the metal SM command squad, a metal librarian, and that big black 3rd ed codex).
That said a lot of people like to emphasize that it was a "lost time of glory", but, the rules have ALWAYS been shit (does anyone remember the "Experimental Assault Rules" before 4th), and the codex-creep had been present for years - especially once the goddamn Necrons came out.
As far as the fluff being bowlderized, I really hated the introduction of the Tau, but, the Oldcrons were great - I'd say His Wardliness did more damage to the fluff than anything.
Id say the biggest loss was the departure of Andy Chambers and the death of Specialist Games.
>>46435093
The part about fantasy fucking got me. Bait for the bait god.
>>46433258
that is why that post specifically mentions space marines versus other models
SPACE MARINES have been the same price for over ten years and the quality is better than ever
NPC FACTIONS cost a premium for the same shitty old models
>>46434826
8/8
I started at the start of 3rd edition. What I miss most is 'chapter approved' and a white dwarf that was more than a sales catalog.
Vehicle Design Rules were run, lots of interesting models got kitbashed at my LGS back then. Good times.
I've tried to get back into the swing of things several times, but I look at the bland cookie cutter codex's and uninspired uniformity of the typical army list and I feel something in my soul die.
When did Ork players stop kitbashing?
>>46436322
>Hasn't their profit / revenue gone down for multiple years in a row now?
No it's stayed relatively flat. There is sales shrinkage every year for 5(?) years in a row, but only because they trimmed a lot of fat. It looks like this years numbers will be including decline in profit as well.
>>46427105
Played from.around 95-2000, tried taking it up again about 2005, gave up 2012
I'd love to play Necromunda with a group of mates, never mind, maybe when I have kids
The cost to fun ratio just isn't there anymore, and the lore became increasingly bland (despite moving away from renaissance vs high fantasy) i liked the mix of mundane life meeting fantasy and the way everyone was vulnerable to.corruption and death. Now it's full on high fantasy world of warcraft good vs evil shit
>>46430987
They explicitly said that they now replay battle reports until the new guys win.
As a former guard player I was saddened when guard lost so much and never got any supplements, when they do get something new it;s invariably a tank because they can't imagine a guard player might like the guard aspect.
I also miss the crazy equipment lists of yore...thrall wizards were awesome.
>>46427105
Played from 2000 to 2007.
The worst for me was seeing white Dwarf inexorable quality drop.
Went from a nice magazine with bits of fluff, conversions, rule discussions, nice alternate army lists and scenarios, to the pure advertising crap that it is today.
It was especially jarring when I got my hands on an early collection and could compare issues from every decade.
>>46427105
Killing the Warhammer World is the most stupid thing they could do. There was literally nothing stopping them from releasing a new gaming system set in the Warhammer world.
Yet for some unimaginable reason they decided to go ahead with the Age of Digital Art Interns.
On the other hand, the get started kits are a wise move, and even though I won't be buying them, I can see the colored plastic kits being a good entry point. And they just prolonged the life of LotR (though it is their fault that it is in such a sorry state). So not everything's bad. There is a glimmer of hope.
>>46428715
Then perhaps they should update those sisters? When a basic squad costs 50£ and half of the range is oop you are not inviting people to buy said faction.
>>46434826
>Fantasy players whined about Fantasy not getting enough love. Since last summer they've received more love than for the past 5 years before that, but people still aren't happy.
I hope you die alone and painfully.
>>46443011
WD is especially painful to see. Oh hwo the mighty have fallen. I mourn for the Kroot army lists, the "now that we are releasing Lizardmen, here you have 15 pages of aztec scenography" and the "look how you can kitbash this unit without using bits of the official unit" articles.
>>46444581
>half of the range is oop you are not inviting people to buy said faction.
invite them to buy a different faction instead?
>>46427105
>grog
The Founding Fathers just wanted to make a tidy living by working hard to sell people what the people wanted. The post-takeover greedheads hijacked that train with the intent of getting rich while doing as little as possible based on the Kirby Philosophy:
Every year brings a new batch of 12yos to High Street to keep the money train moving. They all knew that the charade would eventually be unmasked and sales volumes would tank, but they cared only for short-term profits and yacht club memberships. When the company somehow remained profitable, they were shocked, but lay the laurel at the feet of WD, its dinosaur Social Media arm. Then they did the only other thing they knew - raised prices. Incrementally turning the thumbscrews to see how much the market would bear, and then turning some more because fuck you. tl;dr:
Citadel's GW buyout changed the company's mission objective from Fuck Yeah to Fuck You.
And something about 'models.'
>>46442144
When did Ork players stop kitbashing?
January 2008 never forget
is there any chance of GW becoming better? Those START COLLECTING! sets are great value, and it looks like some things are more affordable, but then they go and squat the fucking Tomb Kings and Bretonnia and I just cannot fathom why they would do that.
>>46447063
>but then they go and squat the fucking Tomb Kings and Bretonnia and I just cannot fathom why they would do that.
they are old ass kits that nobody was buying
the molds are decomposing badly and it isn't representative of their current product.
rather than pay to maintain an old and unpopular product line that other manufacturers do better anyway, why not focus on something new?
>>46447676
>why not focus on something new?
Because the new stuff so far has been bland uninspired shite, that is expensive as hell.
>>46447751
the sad truth is if they invested the money to make new betonnia kits not enough people would buy them to even recoup the cost
GW never said you can't use your high elves any more, they just won't sell you more
but that shouldn't bother you because you weren't buying them anyway
now personally, I actually bought a box of free company in january, and it makes me very sad to see them go. My my patronage alone isn't enough to keep making free company kits.
>>46427105
The lore has gone full retard since 3rd and 4th. It's a weird mix of really stupid shit like Draigo and overly convoluted stuff that takes itself too seriously, like the current Horus Heresy novels from BL.
There were a handful of decent things from GW like the AdMech army and the Dark Eldar model line revamp but there were plenty of derps too like Logan Grimnar and Murderfang. Less said about AoS the better, I can still hardly believe that shit.
I quite liked some of the RPG stuff. Those four Chaos sourcebooks were pretty good, though I felt that given it's RPG material they should have taken the opportunity to make Chaos more chaotic. None of this "literally ALL Greater Daemons of Tzeentch, the God of unpredictable change and mutability, are the same giant scary birdmen".
>>46427105
I think I got started around the same time. Not sure though. What I do remember was there was a lot of new Tyranid models popping up, but there were still some old ones being sold in my games workshop. Pic related. Almost bought one of these guys but then the new carnifex rolled in by the time I saved up the money and I ended up getting one of the new ones.
>>46427105
I haven't played 40k in the longest while.
What exactly is wrong with the current edition of 40k?
>>46435052
tep kok
>>46442144
Probably around when it became the ''Games Workshop Hobby (tm) '' rather than a hobby
>>46448617
silly giant things mostly
>>46447063
Hey man want some crack? First ones free.
It's a business choice. Sell some minis at a comparatively reasonably price, get them hooked
>>46450639
>HURR THEY COST MORE BECAUSE INFLATION
Funnily enough, the Perry Twins give your 40 multipart plastic infantry for the same price as that box of 30 Space Marines cost in 1990 equivalently.
>>46450670
the argument isn't that they haven't increased in price ever
it is that they haven't increased n price in the last ten years
who knows? maybe GW was playing the long con; get us hooked on ten pound marines then in twenty five years when we've got a lot more money milk us dry.
>>46450670
Didn't mean you were claiming that by the way. Just that that's the excuse everyone uses for GW's ways.
>>46450670
Prerry is the ideal model manufacturer.
Shame they aren't too keen on fantasy. I'd kill for a perry skeleton box of perry orc or perry dwarves.
>>46444621
Or you can update the models?
>>46447676
>the molds are decomposing badly and it isn't representative of their current product.
I suggest you inform yourself better about what models were discontinued. Some of them were released not long before End Times, others were from 2012.
And sadly no, they aren't representative of their current product. The sculpts of the Bretonnia range have more character and life than all of the new AoS miniatures with some Khorne exceptions.
>>46447856
>the sad truth is if they invested the money to make new betonnia kits not enough people would buy them to even recoup the cost
How do you know? It's the same as with sisters. If you don't update the army for 10+ years people stop buying. Back when they were in the starter box against Lizardmen they sure as hell sold.
>>46448617
Lots of large miniatures in 1500-2000 points games, flyers (which make little sense if we factor the scale the battle is being played at).
We are moving from miniature to bigature wargaming.
>>46451905
>Or you can update the models?
This pretty much.
If they released plastic sister kits they would sell like pancakes. The only reason they arent selling its because they are expensive metal kits.
>>46450611
I choose the tau because they were one of the most reasonable factions at the time. Now it's all "Our battlesuits will blot out the sun!"
Doesn't surprise me since it was the same thing with the End Times giant creatures, but still.
Plus the new official paint schemes make the figs appear flat and plastic-ish. I just compare the new Hellbrute with the old Daemon Prince in WD, and the difference in paint job is incredible.
That I don't understand at all. With the new "we're selling collectible minis" and Visions angle, they should try to get top-notch painters to sell their products.
I've gone to Infinity now. at least I have nice human-sized models, and never more than two big guys.
>>46452007
How I wish for someone at GW to try pandering to the feminist crowd and promote the all-girl army.
Anything to make the sisters come back.
>>46452810
You misunderstand how the pandering would go. Sexy battle nuns as their own faction? That's misogynistic! Women can be space marines too!
>>46437240
The rules have always been shit and codex creep was always a thing, true, but... well at least they tried, you know?
Or at least articulated what their concept of balance was, and why they thought the new rules were fair.
I like Tau, but I 100% agree on Oldcrons. It's just such whiplash to go from "unstoppable threat that will destroy all sapient life in the galaxy" to "I'm a cranky old man! I like collecting odd trinkets!" as the motive for a faction.
I also miss Specialist Games. I keep hearing rumours that they're bringing back Necromunda some day though.
>>46448617
There aren't any flying mind control jelly fish, dinosaurs or exploding toads.
>>46455098
But they can... In slaaneshi warbands.
Do you have any tabletop-themed sjw links ? They always brighten my day.
http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarsgirls.html
http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem
(I miss the times when I'd chant things about breeding with my fellow neckbeards to 13yo girls to drive them out of the LGS)
>>46455734
>Oldcrons
One shudders to imagine what awaits the 'nids once GW get their hands on them.Nice queen, ala Ender's Game. Turn out the nids were just misunderstood, and have a tragic background that forced them to exile their own galaxy. Humans shoot first, and the rest was just self-defense on the bug's part
>>46448385
Heh. I remember when a Carnifex like that was one of the bigger, scarier things out there
>>46457467
Yep. It was a real monster in terms of tabletop presence. Both due to the size and gameplay but also due to the fact it was a chunk metal model that could quite easily put holes in the table if you dropped it.
If we're talking grumpy grognards, I've still not got over this book.
>Fucking mainstay rule
>No lv2 or lv3 wizards
>Lv1 wizards only get a specific spell
>Doomwheels and verminlords removed
>Fucking mainstay rule
>No more monsters or different swarms
>Screaming bell is shit
>Jezzails are nerfed
>No more skirmishing units of warpfire throwers blowing each other up
>All fluff and background is removed
>FUCKING MAINSTAY RULE
I still want to punch Alessio for this, but since he's a trained martial artist he'd probably kick my ass.
>>46451040
>Shame they aren't too keen on fantasy
Aside from probably not being interested in I doubt they'd be allowed to do it, since they made Fantasy stuff for GW.
That stuff is usually in the working contractings somewhere. You can have somebody working for you become your own competition.
I started playing 40k in early 2000, around 3rd edition and with a few 2nd edition games going on. I didn't realize how much I enjoyed 3rd edition until I start playing again with some old friends in 2008/2009... man, did they ever sell their soul for money.
I am certain that the game always had an element of pay-to-win/min-max/win-at-all-costs in it, but it seems like in the intervening years they sold out to the min-max crowd completely. Not only did the game change, but the attitude of the players was completely different. It was like playing with DOTA/DOTA 2 players in real life. Fun only existed when someone was winning by a huge margin and felt all the rules were working in their favour.
I think some day I will get a group of RT/2nd/3rd/Necromunda players together and play it up, oldschool. The models weren't as high-definition, but the game seemed to have more soul and attract better human beings.
Pic related - It is my first attempt at making a plastic duplicate of an oldschool terminator.
>>46458884
>Fucking mainstay rule
What's that?
>>46460519
>What's that?
mfw
It is pain.
>>46457556
>10 wounds
>S7 -4 save mod 4 attacks
>3+ save on 2d6
>6 M (fast enough to get a save when it runs)
complete
beast
mode
>>46460519
The maximum number of other types of units in your army had be equal or less to the number of clanrat units.
So if you wanted 3 units of night runners, you needed 3 or more units of clanrats on the field. Same with jezzails, rat ogres etc. You were forced to spam small clanrat units just so you could take other shit. It was horrendous.
>>46461579
Badly implemented, but I can see what they were trying to go for: fluff-wise its a horde army so they're trying to make you field a horde
>>46459128
In the US at least, non-compete clauses need to be reasonable in both time and scope to be enforceable. You could write a binding contact where the Perrys can't produce orcs for 6 months after leaving GW but a contract where they are banned forever has no legal standing
