A Tempestus Scion (Storm Trooper for those still butthurt about the name retcon) from Warhammer and a Clone ARC Trooper are deposited in a completely abandoned Times Square in New York City and told to fight to the death by their CO's. Who wins?
>>46418937
ARC Trooper.
Better Physical abilities, can heal wounds completely thanks to Bacta Implants, better armor, better weapons, better gear, better training, and smarter.
No contest really.
>>46419211
Slow down there, buddy.
>Better Physical abilities
That's debatable. While they're not purpose-built clones like ARC troopers are, Scions are still elite soldiers raised from birth to be elite soldiers.
>can heal wounds completely thanks to Bacta Implants
Don't know about this one, my lore on ARC's is rusty.
>better armor, better weapons, better gear
They both wear Carapace Armor, and in-universe have displayed a roughly equal level of protective power.
From a damage standpoint, Blasters are neck-and-neck if not slightly above power of Hot-Shot Lasguns. Hot-Shots are ultra-powered laser weapons that can cut through even power armor with ease, while Blasters fire ionized bolts of Tibanna gas (making them essentially low-level plasma guns). Blaster Rifles are, however, much more easy to maintain and to reload in the field (though HSLG's have a much greater amount of shots before reload).
Gear-wise, they both have roughly equivalent gear for their respective jobs. If anything, Scions are slightly better here, as they can be given teleport homers in rare circumstances (which ARC's don't have IIRC).
>better training,
Debatable, given the nature of how both are raised. At the end of the day, a child who is purpose-built to be a soldier for as long as he can remember is going to be a beyond exceptional soldier, and past a point any difference becomes academic rather than practical. It is worth noting that Scions are not programmed to be obedient in the same way Clones are - while Clones are obedient, they are unaware of the nature of their programming. Scions also have a degree of mental programming, but are 100% true believers in the Imperium and the Imperial Faith. Faith is an element ARC lacks, and never underestimate the power of faith.
>smarter.
That's, again, debatable. Scions regularly go up and emerge victorious when engaging impossible odds and ridiculously powerful foes like Chaos Marines, Tyranids, Necrons. ARC just fight droids.
>>46420315
>Scions given teleport homers
Wait, what?
>>46420315
ARC Troopers are 100% loyal to the Republica and Republican Democracy. They don't have faith; they just know they're better.
>>46418937
>retcon
It's just High Gothic
>>46420315
>(though HSLG's have a much greater amount of shots before reload).
How many shots does a hotshot get? Because if it isn't more than 100-500 it doesn't have more ammo than the standard shit Storm Troopers get.
>>46420315
>From a damage standpoint, Blasters are neck-and-neck if not slightly above power of Hot-Shot Lasguns. Hot-Shots are ultra-powered laser weapons that can cut through even power armor with ease, while Blasters fire ionized bolts of Tibanna gas (making them essentially low-level plasma guns). Blaster Rifles are, however, much more easy to maintain and to reload in the field (though HSLG's have a much greater amount of shots before reload).
Wut
Lasguns are both more powerful and more functional than Blasters, including Hotshots (which are just special issue ammo for lasguns). Lasguns are the space AK of fiction, they can run on literally any source of energy while also being laughably more powerful than blasters when it comes to killing power. Hellguns are overkill.
>>46418937
The Stormie has experience fighting opponents who are stronger, smarter, faster, tougher, and more fucking MAGICal than he is, and emerging victorious.
The ARC trooper fights hordes of shitty droids, and when that job is done he gains experience fighting poorly trained and poorly equipped rebels.
It's no contest. The 40k universe simply operates at a much higher power level than the Star Wars one does.
>>46421957
Blasters are Plasma weapons, which automatically makes them better than Hellguns.
>>46422185
>what is energy density
>what is heat
Do you even know how plasma functions? "Plasma" has fuck all to do with an idea of weapon strength. You can have a plasma torch that burns away metal slowly, or a super-dense cannon that outright vaporizes people. Blasters are nothing like plasma weapons in Warhammer, or even close to them. Plasma guns used by the Imperium burn at temperatures over 20 million degrees F and have enough energy density that a plasma gun hitting a man will cremate him (render him a pile of ash) or fully vaporize. Even tau infantry plasma guns, pulse rifles, can overpenetrate tank armor. IOM plasma also is hot and dense enough that a plasma bolt passing by you will ignite your clothes and melt flesh off your bones.
Star Wars blasters meanwhile are much weaker, both lacking energy density and heat comparable to plasma weapons in 40k. People can actually survive shots from blasters with minimal energy. Lasguns meanwhile flash-boil flesh, causing entire muscles to be stripped off with glancing hits, limbs to explode/frayed into pieces, or even vaporize chunks of tissue with mass comparable to a fat three foot long fish. Hotshots/Hellguns are even more powerful, and hellguns have the added advantage of not needing to reload.
>>46422579
>Lasguns meanwhile flash-boil flesh, causing entire muscles to be stripped off with glancing hits, limbs to explode/frayed into pieces, or even vaporize chunks of tissue with mass comparable to a fat three foot long fish.
You mean the weapon that takes several hits to notably hurt a guy in the RPGs in even medieval leather armour and have a 50% chance of failing to hurt the average human before armour is accounted for in the TT?
>>46422649
btfo
>>46421957
>Lasguns are both more powerful
Expand.
Reminds me of the Space Marine vs Jedi thread. A Space Marine would easily beat a Jedi but on this one I'm actually 50/50.
Both are well trained and insanely loyal.
The Stormtrooper's weapon is much more powerful with the Hotshot Lasgun and I think Stormtroopers have higher numbers than ARC Troopers.
I think ARC Troopers have better equipment and being clones, I think they are somewhat enhanced.
>>46422926
Considering ARC troopers get stuff like Jet Packs and Heavy Weapons in much larger quantities, the equipment side really seems to go to the ARC trooper.
>>46422185
no
I won't comment on the quality of blasters or lasguns because both settings are about as consistent as something your mother, but "plasma"as well as "laser"means literally nothing as to a fictional weapon's strength.
>>46420518
Inquisitorial Stormtroopers/Scions can get teleport homers in the fluff, but they're super-expensive so they're not handed out lightly.
>>46420619
Faith and loyalty are different emotions, and interact differently with the human mind. Also, ARC troopers aren't loyal to the Republic - like all Clones, they are loyal to the man they are programmed to be loyal to (Palpatine). If they were loyal to the Republic, they'd never have turned on the Jedi or agreed with the formation of the Empire. Their loyalty is also programmed at the genetic level, which means they don't have a full understanding of it - with Scions, there is an element of choice (they have to choose to believe) that solidifies their loyalty to a much greater degreeThat's getting into a pretty heavy philosophical argument with no right answers, though.
>>46421957
Lasguns aren't as powerful as Blasters. Hot-Shot Lasguns (which are a thing btw - Hellguns are the older models that would be refined into Hot-Shot Lasguns and the Hot-Shot Volley Gun) are upscaled Lasguns (which hit with about the force of a 7.62/.308 round does, so even basic Lasguns aren't a kiss on the cheek by any standard) have increased armor penetration and power, and can burn through Ceramite (basically the 40K equivalent to SW's Durasteel) like it's not even there, meaning they are suddenly a much, much greater threat to Power Armored foes like CSM. Blasters, however, fire coherent blasts of ionized gas that hit with more penetrating power and force (you see people get knocked the fuck over in the movies when they get shot, even wearing carapace armor, and it blows large chunks out of walls and cover). Blasters are better, but at the end of the day the two are roughly comparable to each other on the battlefield.
>>46423225
Scions can also be issued either true Jet/Jump Packs (though that tends to only be in the service of an Inquisitor, as that shit's expensive) or more commonly Grav-Chutes (which are proto-Jet Packs that basically slow your fall to nothing, acting as a high-tech parachute that can allow you to hover for short times).
>Heavy Weapons
They have grenade launchers, flamer throwers, plasma guns (which are powerful enough to punch through light tanks like they're nothing) sniper rifles, Hot-Shot Volley Guns (essentially the HMG version of a Hot-Shot Lasgun) and Meltaguns, as well as demo charges, melta bombs, and a variety of grenades in copious quantities. Not only are heavier weapons extraneous, they're really unnecessary - Scions aren't anti-armor units, and using them that way is a waste of an extremely precious resource. There are tons of other ways to deal with situations that require anti-armor weapons that can be much better solved by other units.
Point being, they're really not lacking in that department either.
>>46418937
Honestly, this is a tough one.
They are practically equal in all respects, the only big difference is their live spans and gear.
I would have to the the Scions would win due to attrition as lasguns are solar/heat powered while blasters require some sort of gas ammo.
While my Star Wars lore is extremely rusty, I believe the ARCs are specialized in urban warfare specifically, so they would be better suited to fighting in Times Square than the Scions.
If both sides lay low and take potshots.
>Scion Victory
If they both charge into each other.
>Scion Victory
If they go full tactical and never stop to rest.
>ARC Victory
>>46423493
I don't see an option for Jet/Jump packs on the TT or any mention in the fluff. The ARC troops definitely have better medical equipment, with Bacta being basically Star Wars talk for 'Miracle cure'
>>46423531
serious question, does the ARC gear have any way of sustaining themselves for prolonged fights?
Stormtroopers have nutrient masks that can keep them awake and fed for several days, which is pretty relevant when comparing two roughly-equivalent troops.
>>46423353
No. Lasguns are vastly more powerful than 7.62, their effects are similar to .50 caliber rounds. When lasguns hit people, limbs fly off, torsos completely blow open, etc. When blasters strike people they get a small burn and are often survivable. We have no confirmation that most of the people who get shot by blasters are actually dead.
>“The older man sidestepped, so as not to risk hitting the girl. Then he blew the second chanter’s head into steam.” / Hammer and Bolter (#13), p.141 - **
Additionally, blasters are incredibly shitty firearms due to being fairly slow weapons with piss-poor accuracy. During the Clone Wars TV show, we see Clone Troopers and even ARCs missing targets that are thirty or less feet ahead of them. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that either Clones are terrible shots who can't hit shit under pressure, or that blasters are fucking awful weapons when it comes to accuracy.
Posting Inquisitorial Stormtroopers because I still like the æsthetic better than temperature cylons
>>46423353
Clone troopers were in fact loyal to the Republic. In fact, they only listened to Palpatine because the REPUBLIC handed him the power, that's all. Even their orders reflect this:
Order 66: The Jedi Council are traitors to the Republic, destroy them
but then there's
Order 67: The Chancellor is a traitor to the Republic, arrest him, await further orders from the Senate.
>>46424639
So if the Jedi Council wasn't pants-on-head retarded, they could have counter-acted Order 66 with Order 67?
>>46425268
>So if the Jedi Council wasn't pants-on-head retarded, they could have counter-acted Order 66 with Order 67?
Order 67 would have required either a majority vote from the senate or the security council. Neither of which the Jedi were likely to get on short notice.
>>46422926
I've always thought a Space Marine with a power sword could beat a Jedi, but the Jedi has a chance vs chainsword and bolter
>>46424508
>temperature cylons
So speaking of Scions, anyone have any recommendation for plasma gun arms? My Scion army has two squads with 2 plasmas and the 'gun on hip while pointing' pose looks fucking stupid repeated x4.
I'm thinking Kasarkin arms potentially, but open to suggestions
>>46420315
>It is worth noting that Scions are not programmed to be obedient int he same way Clones are
You're incorrect about both of these, actually. ARCs are trained to be far more independent than GAR clones or even RC clones. They're free-thinkers, and during the war many grow resentful of their treatment. A few desert, and one did even before the Clone War itself started.
Scions are about as independent and free-thinking. That one story of the Inquisitor traveling to the world to find a giant sea monster has his stormtroopers "creatively interpreting" his orders to do their job to maximum efficiency.
As far as their armor and weapons go, this is probably about right. From what I can see on how weapons react with people they're shot at in a few of the main RPGs for both settings (using Only War and Star Wars d6 as my sources on this one), hotshots and blasters act about the same. The d6 Star Wars even has an interesting way of showing the advanced penetration of blasters: all armor has two ratings, one against physical attacks and one against energy attacks. Energy attacks (blasters, lightsabers, etc.) all have lower ratings on pretty much every armor.
In regards to smarts, that's also debatable still. ARCs are modified to have things like eidetic memory and advanced metabolisms to support musculatures that are designed to be beyond what most people can normally achieve. They are vicious, and they even frighten Jedi.
Both of these fighters have the best gear they can be given, they're both trained from childhood to be vicious killers. Their motivations may be different, but they have the same hardened resolve.
I think this is a coin toss to be honest. Though if forced to choose, I say pic related.
On another note, why ARCs? They are trained to operate alone most of the time. If you wanted to do team players against team players, Republic Commandos would have been more appropriate. For the most part, I have little to change if we were assuming RCs.
>>46423629
Nutrition cubes and altered metabolisms. They'll eat food with actual taste like fucking maniacs, but they can go a long time without it.
>>46422649
"failing to incapacitate" is not "failing to hurt"
failing a to wound roll represents only wounding a limb or grazing or otherwise a non incapacitating wound.
>>46422124
>the ARC trooper fights hordes of shitty droids
And terrorists, and professional mercenaries, and all sorts of aliens that side with the Seperatists. Please don't try and use the actual kids show for evidence in regards to how these professional and hardened killers behave. Use the books instead, much less of a filter for the actual kids watching the actual kids show.
>poorly trained and poorly equipped rebels
The actual Alliance has some hardened fuckers in it. Real professionals, trained by professional mercs and given some really good shit. Again, Star Wars has a tremendous EU that these guys took part in, and if we're taking any kind of comparison seriously between these two fighters, then we should look at as many of their adult sources as possible.
>>46426801
Don't forget, they also fight all the Sith that show up in the Clone Wars. Ventress, Dooku, Grievous, that one Chiss one, the couple dozen fallen Jedi, etc.
>>46426382
I snipped mine about a bit and kitbashed the plasma pistol arm to make it look like he was transitioning to his secondary--his PLASMA SECONDARY.
Apologies for the shitty picture.
>>46426382
>>46426921
Second picture attempt.
>>46426921
>>46426941
shave the beard, clip your nails, thin your paints
>>46426951
The paint is thinned. It's the shitty camera. A member of our community who's been doing 40k for ten years helped me paint (by looking over my shoulder and giving me advice, not by doing it himself).
As for the beard and nails, yeah. I know. Doing the latter now.
>>46426941
>>46426921
Thanks man looks good. Not sure what I'll do about the other three though :(
>>46418937
The ARC trooper is only around 10 years old, spends his down time in stasis, and has only fought droids.
The Tempestus Scion is a true grown man (probably in his late 20s), who has fought numerous different kinds of enemies and spends his "down time" training.
Scion wins hands down because of superior life experience. He'll adapt to the new situation, and to his foe, faster than the ARC can. He'll have better tactics, and better strategies.
If he was up against combat servitors the ARC could probably hold his own, but he'll get eaten alive facing someone with equivalent gear and more than twice his life experience.
>>46427610
Even if you want to ignore the amount that flash training can actually help, the ARCs were training with stun ammunition against professional soldiers with live ammunition since they were two fucking years old (four, from a physical perspective). Also the cryo thing is just wrong. That practice was only held very early in the Clone Wars.
And that's not considering the years that the Clone Wars lasted. Alongside the time they spent in the Empire fighting as well.
Your argument only holds water from the Scion side. Your understanding of the ARC lore is paper-thin at best based on that assessment.
>>46426382
grenade launcher arms
plasma gun from another kit
Snip the launcher off, slide the plasma gun in. Easy.
>>46427852
My god, you're brilliant. I don't know how I didn't think of that, thanks!
>>46427903
Keep it real, trooper. Just watch those heat levels.
Munitorum doesn't give medical leave.
>>46423629
>>46426745
This is true, but in all honesty it's not as good as the nutrient masks. The ARCs and RCs have stim packs that give the same effects as well as the nutrient food and paste, but they need to remove a panel of armor to inject the former and they need to eat the latter two.
The Scions basically inhale their nutrition and combat drugs like the Chem Dogs. It may equal out to the same, but the Scions need to do less to stand longer.
With that being said, the ARCs and Commandos have a major advantage in bacta. That shit is so goddamn good. Knock a bastard down and this will get him back up and kicking, especially when he has the implants ARCs and Commandos have that let you give it an electric kick.
>>46418937
Muh niggas.
>>46418937
Both of these soldiers are some of the coolest parts of their respective settings.
>>46428820
>>46428968
>>46428983
>>46429027
>>46427974
Do Arcs have bacta implants?
I thought it was just the RC squads that had them due to their smaller squad based design.
>>46429091
A couple of the books say that the ARCs get everything the RCs get, if they don't get an upgraded kit (or personal preference). So it's safe to assume that yes, they get those too.
>>46429091
>>46429161
Though with that being said, I think that Scions vs Republic Commandos would be more appropriate a comparison. I think the contest itself would basically be no different, but that doesn't mean RCs wouldn't be more apt than ARCs.
>>46429061
>>46429076
>>46427974
Uh guys? Bacta is a GAME MECHANIC. Bacta does not make one instantly stand up from getting hit by a blaster penetrating shot with no damage at all. Bacta just stabilizes you and keeps you a nonlethal casualty. Bacta takes a while to heal devastating wounds, and even then it doesn't really work all the time (it doesn't regenerate fully missing muscles or heal scar tissue).
