>>46260498
>Those saying 'evil' say so because the amount of mindrape it would need to change their alignment is so strong that it erases all of what they are, effectively killing them.

those people are dumb. compare yourself to when youre stressed and tired and when youre rested. one day youre an asshole with zero patience and the next you go back to normal. did you die? did the good you die and become replaced by an evil you, which then died and was replaced by a good you? the answer is no because thats retarded. switching someones mind wouldnt involve any mindrape when it comes to values and morals. you ever get your mind changed about something? like lets say you believed that elves were good people until you were corrected and began believing that elves deserve to die and be raped. your morals changed there. your values changed. your opinion changed, but you were still you. point is, if a demon was changed to good, it would still be itself but it would follow a different set of rules. basically like a crazy person taking medication. of course theres the chance it feels so bad for its past crimes that it kills itself. that wouldnt be quite so good

>>46260498
Depends entirely on whether or not you run absolute alignment.
I never do, but I would argue that this method is still evil, since you have performed a forcible conversion via what can be stated as a form of mind-control.

>>46262079
But given what demons and devils are, why is that evil?

>>46262327
This is where morals and game mechanics clash. Most moral systems expect that any sentient being has inherent value and deserves to be treated with respect.
A game that introduces creatures to be pure enemies (or tools, if you're a summoner) does not work by the same rules.

>>46262837
You could helm them in self-defense.

>>46262851
Then you'd be obliged to take off the helmet afterwards.

>>46262079
Sounds more like you're concerned with free will.
That's a chaotic vs lawful argument, though.

In human society we have programs called "rehabilitation" that effectively "kill" alcoholics, convicts and druggies.

It's for the betterment of the rehab patient that they go through the process. They come out different than when they went in. Or at least, that's the goal.

Good, which is fundamentally concerned with the respect for life and dignity, wants to rehabilitate demons and devils, too. I am sure it is an agonizing process for good creatures to use such an item on an evil being, as it is in committing a loved one to rehab, or as a jurist to the convict gives his sentence. But ultimately using the item helps the demon to live a good, fruitful and happy life. All at the expense of the good creature's soul-searching and burden of responsibility. Sounds like self-sacrifice to save another, and that is certainly Good.

>>46262857
but taking off the helmet would put you in danger again.

>>46260498
Well you see, it depends on your take on alignment.
If acts are subjective based on who they are done to (TSR style, where Genocide of usually Evil creatures, with entire planet's worth of neutral or good collateral damage was a Chaotic Good act) or how the character views themselves (4e) then it's likely not evil.
If you are using a system where an act is good or evil (TSR Ravenloft and 3x, see especially Book of Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds) then direct mind control often falls and torture always falls firmly in the Evil part of the Spectrum.

The TLDR version is that your DM will tell you if an act is evil or not and as the matter is usually left to DM fiat because any actual rules are either in obscure splats or so poorly worded/vague enough that it becomes a matter of opinion most of the time. In such cases, the DN as final arbiter of rules is right.

>>46262883
While he's wearing the helmet he will cooperate with you. You two can make sure you'll be able to remove the helmet without endangering yourself.

Except he won't help you because from his new perspective he doesn't want to go back to being a total asshole.

>>46262877
>"rehabilitation"
Are you an Amerifag?
Please don't be an Amerifag.
Murika makes no real effort at rehabilitation and works on a contain and punish system, not a rehabilitation system, and has nothing to do with helping the person incarcerated.

>>46262857
It's permanent actually if you fail the save.

>>46262932
Straying from the topic, but suppose you could argue that Murica isn't "Good" :^)

Point being the whole 'mindrape' and 'kill' argument is all hyperbole. Rehab is for the good of the individual. It is literally and metaphorically good for the demon, in many ways.

I remember my DM changed our fighter's alignment to MC for Massive Cunt after he intentinaly set fire to an airship we were on, trying to shove a kid overboard, failing and eventualy just chucking him into the fire. He then proceded to enslave all the survivors and use them as meat-shields against the orcs that attacked us. Raped the half-orc females that were dying on the field of battle, killed the horse of a messenger, knocked the guy unconscious, butchered the horse and put it on him like in the Godfather.

The guy is fucking insane mang. He rolled a nat 20 to throw poop at a questgiver and essentially blinded her forever. Afterwards he went to a brothel and hired the biggest meanest half orc there, togheter with the smallest of halfling female and totally destroyed all er orifices only so he can throw her at the questgiver again.

Soo, what alignment do you think the guy is? He started as LAWFUL neutral FYI

>>46263435
>DM allowed those last few paragraphs

Wow.

Chaotic Evil.

>>46263469
Hey it's a funny little gimmick we're playing but this guy... Hell, he's funny, even the DM chuckles at his shit

>>46263218
>Rehab is for the good of the individual.
It is also something that cannot be forced on people. It must be their free will to undergo rehab.

>>46263435

Chaotic Stupid

I personally run it as whenever a fiend gets its alignment converted, it is destroyed, since it's a being literally made of evil. However, it reincarnates as a celestial of some sort in one of the upper planes, since its pure evil was converted into pure good.

>>46263485
Nah, that's for the lack of power and resources. If they could, they would.

>>46265175
No, they would not.

You may be confusing two different things:
Rehab, which is voluntary, and a forceful confinement in a mental institution.
The latter is for people who can't deal with their own lives anymore without endangering themselves or others. While they will see psychiatrists, there may be no long-term goal of rehabilitation or release. They are kept there because they cannot be allowed to walk the streets.

The former (rehab) is exclusively for people who actively want to turn their lives around. They may even be still capable of functioning in society to some degree. What matters is that they don't like their lives any more.

This has to do with human rights and our society's belief that people should be self-determined.

>>46265245
>cannot be forced
Sure it can, as long as you have the method for it. Unless you want to use some other word for forcing someone to turn their life around.

>>46265286
>Sure it can,
You mean, with a Helmet of Opposite Alignment.

>>46265296
Or modern "lobotomies."

>>46265316
So far we're having trouble medically getting people to stop being sad without any pesky side effects like extreme obesity.
And that is WITH their cooperation.
What exactly are you expecting from doctors?

Besides, in >>46263485 I was mostly speaking of the moral aspect. It's considered unethical.

>>46260498
D&D was made before society decided that pretending to do something to a fictional character was exactly the same as doing something to an actual human being.

>>46265359
Why are you bringing this in now?
Doing something in fiction is fictionally the same thing as actually doing it.
Therefore, so long as you care about roleplaying, you should take the consequences of that thing you're doing into account.

>>46265351
I guess it's better to lock them up forever or kill them than give them brain surgery, right?

>>46265388
>guess it's better to lock them up forever
That's what our society believes, yes. You need not share the belief.

>or kill them
Excuse me?

>>46265399
What? Death penalty is a thing.

>>46265412
But not for the mentally unfit.

>>46265374
Because Ragnar the fourth-level warrior wasn't raised in a modern post-industrial culture and taught to value the beliefs and opinions of all beings equally. He was raised to believe that demons are bad and doing something to make demons less bad is good.

>>46262913
BoED has the "Totally Good Mind Rape" spell, though, where you trap an evil person's soul inside a crystal and bombard them with good thoughts untill they become good. There's an evil spell that does pretty much the same thing, except instead of forcing the target to become good, you can mould their mind to be anything you want, but this one has "Good" in the description so it's OK. Same book also has Good Poisons, which are just like poisons (the use of which is considered an always evil act according to the book), except they're good.

>>46265423
That is a completely different argument.
Do you even read your own comments before hitting submit?

>>46265421
Psychopaths who love murdering people would be the type of thing ablative brain surgery might fix.

>>46265450
I don't know enough on the subject of psychopaths to confidently argue about them. There seems to be a lot of misconceptions going around though.

>>46265496
It's just the easy example. Chances are psychosurgery can eventually deal with a lot of things (criminal tendencies, for example) considered impossible before, so whether applying these methods would be better than what we do now needs to be considered.

>>46265564
You know what else could deal with criminal tendencies?
Education, a reduction of poverty, better food (there are studies showing that fast food makes people aggressive)...
Why don't you start with the options that are morally questionable rather than completely out of line by current state philosophy?

>whether applying these methods would be better than what we do now needs to be considered.
What we're doing right now is asking if death penalty shouldn't be abolished.
Your idea is going against the zeitgeist which is for strengthened human rights, not weakened ones. What you need to get your ideas through is something destructive on the scale of a major war.
Wars have historically reduced people's interests in human rights time and time again.

>>46265638
Sure, ban fast food if it turns out to be bad for you, whatever. I can't believe you think this is likelier to happen, though.

If the method produces enough data that suggests its positive effects, people just might agree to implementation. But how to get people to agree to it isn't really my concern.

>>46265719
>I can't believe you think this is likelier to happen, though.
I live in Germany. During the past few years I have observed a surge in healthy food.
McDonalds is still there, of course. But the change isn't over yet. Who knows where this will lead.