Can you play an atheist Paladin? How would that work?
>>46219290
Thorse is such a stupid character with such a stupid name. Beta Ray Bill? Jesus.
Why didn't they do something creative or cool with him instead?
If we're talking about D&D as a general setting, then yes, so long as they're striven towards an ideal and acknowledge the existence of evil that must be fought against.
Basically the same as atheistic clerics.
Yes.
Same as any other paladin, says right in the rules.
>>46219290
you can play anything you want
if your DM lets you
but yes, it has been done. they just get their power from an ideal or oath rather than a god. really, ask your DM, it's a setting thing.
>>46219290
Why not? The core aspect of being a paladin is a code of conduct.
>>46219290
Oh, look, it's this thread again.
Try picking up the AD&D 1st edition PHB and read the Paladin. It doesn't says anywhere that it must adhere to a religion.
Now check the AD&D 2nd Edition PHB. Same, no mention of paladins adhering to religions.
Same in BECMI and Rules Cyclopedia.
It's been a while since I touched a 3e book (and have no intention of doing do again), but I'm pretty sure that even that edition never had paladins have to belong to a religion.
I honestly have no idea where the idea that "paladins must follow a god" even COMES from. Where did you even get that idea, OP? It certainly predates 4e.
You can play an irreligious paladin just like you can play an irreligious thief or an irreligious fighter. The rules never require you to have a religion.
Unless your DM's setting requires it, of course. (in which case it's retarded, but whatever, the DM makes the rules)
Well Planescape: Torment had a non-religious cleric that was a follower of a concept so why not?
>>46219390
>non-religious cleric
>Good succubus
>Amnesia
m8, let's make no mistake. The characters of Planescape: Torment were carried by good writing. Your players are not going to be a hundredth as good at acting or writing as those characters were, and devoid of any decent writing, those characters are going to be god awful.
That is why. When you start to GM someday, you will start to understand that certain character ideas are reserved for "trusted players."
>>46219290
...Is that Rapthor?
>>46219428
Nigga thats Beta Ray Bill
>>46219290
But paladins are atheists, atheism is a lack of belief, with empirical evidence of a god's existence belief is not required to worship them or follow their teachings, that is assuming their gods are real in their setting.
>>46219290
NO! What sort of idiot makes an athiest in a setting with real gods? It doesn't make sense and would never happen!
>>46219422
I suppose it boils down to "could" vs. "should".
Can I play a no armed gnome that rides a catfish into battle? Probably, but it might not be a good idea.
>>46219290
>This thread again
>>46219720
Gnomes are good mechanics, right? So he has clockwork mechanical arms. Catfish are known to travel overland. So it will work. I prefer giant mudskippers though.
>>46219712
"I have seen many and heard many who tell me, Here is God, Come and Worship; who claim power and dominion, sovereignty and divinity, who say to me, lo, lo! We know the truth! We have the power!
"In every temple, every cathedral, every shrine, every monument, I have only ever found two things: Power, and the lack of it. The Gods, the Spirits, the Divine, the Great Elder Outer Ones, whatever words you wish to give them - all I have ever seen them to be are beings who, one way or another, gained a measure of power, and chose a way to use it; and their followers, those who lack the power, and either lust after it, or righteously desire to be filled with even the smallest share of it for the good of others.
"I do not doubt that your God exists, stranger; I've no need to, any more than I've need to doubt the existence of a farmer on the other side of that mountain. But just as that farmer is able to use his power, his wondrous power gained from a lifetime of study and effort, to draw life from the very soil to feed the hungry masses, am I then to worship the farmer for his miracle? I say instead it is better to share my own miracle, to bring peace to those in suffering and defend those unable to defend themselves. Let your faith be in your God if it brings you joy, stranger, and let it strengthen you. I'm content enough believing in my brothers."
>>46219943
(TL;DR, you can accept the existence of a god without believing in the divinity of that god. For fuck's sake, we have wizards who can turn Collossal+ Great Elder Wurm dragons into pocket-sized shrews and create vast underground networks of undead computers to play chess - what the fuck is 'divinity' even supposed to mean in a setting like that anyway?)
>>46219943
That sounds dumb.
>>46219290
No. Divine magic, at least in D&D, is a power that you are channeling. It isn't a power you actually HAVE: Basically, God goes "Okay, I'll let you draw on my cosmic might."
An atheist Paladin is out of luck, because he has no way of channeling holy might. However, it IS possible to be a Fighter who holds strongly to a Paladin's beliefs. He's not a Paladin because he doesn't have any supernatural powers, but he's as dedicated as one.
>>46219290
The problem is that gods in the D&D universe (I'm assuming this is D&D)are easily proven to exist, and paladin spells are granted by them. Unless the DM ruled that your morality was what granted your class features, you'd be better off playing a fighter with a staunch moral code. Could be interesting fluff for an arcane pally ACF
>>46220033
I forget which, but there was at least one campaign that sent the party to a plane that was cut off from the gods. It made special mention that divine casters still got their spells and powers though, as if the true source was their conviction rather than the gods...
>>46220084
Do you have the module's name? Might be worth checking out.
>>46219323
So can you be a paladin of Justice, of Equality? Like do you have to have a specific ideal to draw power from?
>>46220282
More or less, you draw raw power from the concepts of Good and Law directly, rather than getting it handed down from a god.
>>46220121
Afraid not. Might have to comb through a bunch of modules and try to find it though. 2ed iirc.
>>46220318
Interesting.
Currently am playing a Paladin without a deity. His strength is drawn from his belief in Righteousness.
>>46220395
>Righteousness
what does that even mean?
>>46220002
That's stupid.
Sure, it depends on the setting, but wizards who can turn great elder wurm dragons into shrews are literally god-like in their power already. You're not gonna find one in every town and go "Look, we don't need your god, we got a fucking wizard" in any official DnD setting. Except for Planescape, but let's not go there.
Gods are real, with immense power, unlike anything 99,999...% will ever achieve. Not acknowledging this and not asking for their protection is sheer idiocy in any DnD setting. Again, not going to Planescape. Sure, you can be an idiot, but come out and just call your character that when playing any DnD stuff. No need to go all high and mighty in a setting where gods literally help those who worship them in straight, visible and meaningful ways.
Not asking for gods help in a such setting is sheer idiocy.
To answer OP: Yes, you can be an atheist Paladin. Anything your GM allows you can play.
>>46220421
To be law-respecting, good-thinking, have virtuous taste in shoe-wear and demonstrating proper way of behaviour that results in a half-decent effort at keeping the Queen's Peace.
>>46220421
Not the anon you're replying to, but I ran a similar character not too long ago.
Just an old farmhand got into adventuring based on Doing What's Right. Don't need no old books or philosophizing to tell you what's right. Just listen to your gut.
>>46219290
Can you play as a theistic SuperAtheist? How would that work?
>>46220033
Paladins Channel Raw Goodness, occasionally specified as coming from the positive energy plane but usually Vague, No god grants them their power, though they may aid him.
>>46220033
lol
pretty much every edition of D&D specifically says that paladins can just be followers of "good" in general, and don't need a specific god at all.
Maybe try reading the rules at some point.
>all these people who don't know about the actual rules of paladins that have been a part of D&D since paladins were a thing, all the way to at least 4e (haven't looked at 5e yet)
How the fuck do you guys come to talk about D&D and yet you haven't ever read the paladin class description in ANY players handbook?
>>46219290
>atheist
A paladin without a god is legal by the rules. Being an athetist in a setting with hard proof of Gods existing? If your int and wis are both below 4, sure.
Otherwise, no. You can't have a religious stance that specifically says "GODS DON'T EXIST" when those Gods physically manifest their powers on a regular basis, and even people living under a rock, knows about their existance. Not without your character being on the same level of intelligence as animal.
You might as well make an elf who firmly believes that humans don't exist in a regular forgotten realms game.
>>46222654
>You might as well make an elf who firmly believes that humans don't exist in a regular forgotten realms game.
desu that sounds great
elf that believe that humans are just an illusion and keeps trying to disbelieve every time he meets one.
>>46222654
"I have seen dragons burn down cities, I have seen the dead rise from their graves, I have seen wonders as wizards have bent the laws of this world to their will. But never once have I seen an act of a god. I have seen clerics heal the wounded, yes, I have seen paladins smite the evil, indeed. But I have never had a revelation, never once heard the word from up on high. All I have as proof for their existence is the word of those who would profit from the belief of them being real. I say nay, I do not believe the gods exist, and if they do, what makes them gods? Their measure of power? That is not a measurement I can accept. Just as little as a Tyrant's law can be called justice will I call a powerful being a god merely because it is powerful."
>>46223138
Sounds good, but as I said, int<4
Being an ignorant fuck who refuses to classify beings who can alter reality on a scope that makes even the most powerful wizard look like a stage magician is a pretty fun concept.
>>46219712
Athar aren't actually atheists.
>>46223299
But what proof does that man have that they exist? Most people in a setting have never seen or had a chat with a god. Sure, they've seen clerics do their thing, but they've also seen arcane magicians do pretty much the same thing and how should they know the difference?
Sure, by later levels it is entirely possible for an adventurer to pop over to a God's sanctum and see that, sure, the god exists, but then he would have gotten that far without the god's help, so why start worshiping it as a god? It is a powerful being, sure, but so are dragons.
>>46223412
>worshiping
No, now you are being dumb. Atheist is the firm belief that GODS DO NOT EXIST.
You can refrain from worshipping any god if you want to, but there is a massive difference in not caring about the Gods, and straight up believing that they do not exist at all.
The later is ignorant and mildly delusional.
>>46223412
gods are powerful enough that they can will reality to be in a way that everyone KNOWS of their existence.
>>46219290
paladins believe in the light that lets them be righteous in them. so you should believe in the you that allows you to be the righteous. true neutral so basically god.
>>46223581
Just because you accept that a being exists doesn't mean that you have to accept its divinity or godhood. There are cults all over the earth and all through history that have venerated specific people as gods, do I doubt their existence? No. Do I doubt them being gods? Yes.
>>46223588
Then why are there dead gods, forgotten gods, regional gods, small gods? Why do I need to know Knowledge (Religion) to know of the existence of various obscure gods? Few gods, if any, are that powerful in any fantasy setting.
In 5e your paladin oath is completely seperate from any deity. The same is true of every edition. The only thing that matters is sticking to what you believe.
>>46223838
>Then why are there dead gods, forgotten gods, regional gods, small gods
because they lost to other gods, duh. There's a big god tug-of-war going on in pretty much any setting with multiple gods.
>Few gods, if any, are that powerful in any fantasy setting.
Bullshit. In most D&D settings the gods are described as having literally created the world, or at least entire races. They ARE that powerful. It's just that there are many other gods.
And before you say
>that's just a legend
no. That's actual game information. It's in the mechanics and everything.
>>46223838
Moreover, gods in your typical D&D setting (see: Forgotten Realms) started out as extremely powerful mortals or other beings and only ascended because people believed in them.
>>46219290
Why is Thor a dinosaur?
>>46223987
Beta Ray Bill. He's an extra dimensional alien with a sentient battleship named Scuttlebutt that showed up after his home was destroyed. He beat the shit out of Thor, then was a better guy than Thor, so Odin made him a set of armor and a hammer of his own.
>>46223958
>Moreover, gods in your typical D&D setting (see: Forgotten Realms) started out as extremely powerful mortals
That just proves that being a god is a thing you can become, but doesn't make them any less god-like.
Though I liked the idea that when you reach max level, and ascend into godhood you're still gonna be saying "nah, I'm not a god, I don't believe in gods", and ironically become the god of atheism
>>46219712
An atheist in a setting with actually confirmed real gods would be more like someone that just doesn't worship them.
"yeah, I'm not about that pelor life, nor do I give a shit about magic. And I'm not some weird death fetishist. I just wanna kill goblins and farm and call it a day."
Of course then someone would probably be
"You know there's a god specifically of that?"
>>46220637
I'm stealing this portrait and name for something.
Shitkicker Wilson just has a good ring to it.
>>46224039
>mfw this is actually real
Goddammit, it sounded so stupid that I though you made it all up.
>>46224042
Believing in gods is like believing in a powerful person IRL. Sure, they control a big country or corporation but you're not going to support them.
Choosing to not worship any of the gods is a little silly, but not worshipping any in particular or with any great fervor is reasonable. Why would you want someone you don't agree with to have more power?
>>46224094
the best part this about is that he is a good and well written character, probably one of the best marvel characters.
>>46224094
It's fucking comic books nigga. It's all retarded. Beta Ray Bill is at least also awesome.
>>46224123
>good, well written comic book character
Mate, I'm going to be a bit of an elitist here and say that Marvel hasn't put anything out with good writing ever. It's fucking pulp, he may be better than the other pulp, but he is still pulp.
>>46224116
It's fine not to worship them, but they're literally there and fit all definitions of "god-like being" (including the having their believers go into their afterlife). Saying that they're not gods is just being pedantic about definitions.
>>46223927
>because they lost to other gods, duh. There's a big god tug-of-war going on in pretty much any setting with multiple gods.
Yeah, but that is proof that no god is so powerful to impose its will on everyone, which means it is very plausible to assume that some people would deny their divinity.
>Bullshit. In most D&D settings the gods are described as having literally created the world, or at least entire races. They ARE that powerful. It's just that there are many other gods.
Creating something and re-writing reality on a whim is two wholly different things, anon. And there are plenty of gods that have not created anything really, and plenty of gods that have merely adopted races that were already created.
>And before you say
>>that's just a legend
>no. That's actual game information. It's in the mechanics and everything.
So everyone is born with a full knowledge of the creation of the universe? Have you noticed that there is a lot of people discussing how our planet was created?
>>46224180
Obviously, but that's obviously not what OP meant by saying "Athiest" paladin. He meant a non-religious/church aligned paladin.
>>46224185
>that some people would deny their divinity.
Enjoy the being in the wall of the faithless
>>46224173
>pulp
So you're saying marvel is good?
>>46224173
And being pulp somehow makes it intrinsically terrible?
>>46219290
>Can you play an atheist Paladin? How would that work?
Yes. The only edition where Paladins need to worship a god is 4e. In other editions, Paladins get their powers from their dedication to Law and Good, and there is no requirement to worship a god.
>>46219428
His true name is Horse Thor. He is worthy enough to pick up Mjolnir and strong enough to whup Thor's ass with it. Odin thought he was cool and had the dwarves make him Mjolnir 2.0 which BRB named Stormbreaker.
>>46224185
yes, ignorant people could deny them, but then the same ignorant people would have no reason not to believe the clerics claiming "see this shit I can do? That's the gods powers! Believe in them and you might be awesome like me!"
And when their kid who believes really hard also gets divine powers, that's even more reason to believe in the gods.
>>46224173
So Pulp Fiction is a bad movie. Got it.
>>46224201
>Enjoy the being in the wall of the faithless
>implying that the wall of the faithless isn't just something clerics invented so we would pray to their "gods".
Why don't you just go drink some more Kool-Aid?
>>46224245
You can deny them your worship, and they get that much weaker.
There's a God in forgotten realms who had all knowledge of her being a god erased from all mortal minds. She's now basically useless, because power comes from worship.
>>46224207
Yes. It's also intristically worthless.
>>46224245
But there is also the guys running around with pretty much the same kind of powers that they got "because I studied hard" or "because I was born this way".
Sure, makes sense that a lot of people would believe in gods, but there is also reasonable ground for doubt.
>>46224211
>Yes. The only edition where Paladins need to worship a god is 4e.
wrong. A paladin needs to choose a CHURCH that gives him trough some ceremony or other his powers, but he doesn't need to believe in shit, and can go full lol evil with no consequences.
>>46224282
Do you know where you are?
>>46224299
Listen. I happen to actually like some things that are worthless and pulpy.
I don't go around calling it good though, we have enough good things out there that we don't need to lie about the quality of mediocre media.
>>46219290
Yes, how it works is as a paladin who does not believe the gods will do anything. That they are useless. When you spend time praying instead of making a different you are watsing your time.
No one else will save those orphans if you sit and pray. No one else will fight off that impending horde of undead if you just run to your church. The gods are impotent and the only way to make good happen in the world is if you get your arms and armor and stand as the bulwark against evil yourself.
>>46224324
lol
>>46224286
Who are described as god like in their power. Just because there are many gods does not make them less of a god.
If the gods of olympus were real, they would still be gods, despite the fact that there are many gods and demi-gods around.
D&D gods are even more powerful than olympus gods, and nobody was against them in greek. You're either a level 20 wizard, or you worship a god. Because otherwise you're out of society you live in.
>>46224360
>nobody was against them in greek
Socrates was tried for that very reason.
>>46224288
Just because shit isn't codified in the rules doesn't mean there isn't consequences for shitting in a god's cereal.
>>46224324
First of all. Shut your mouth with all these subjective opinions.
Secondly. This is a board for adults who like to play pretend and paint hundred dollar plastic army men. No one is here for high brow entertainment, and if they are they're dumber than I expected. Fact of the matter is, there's good pulp and bad pulp. You can assess things in the big picture sure, but that's not why people enjoy reading comic books. If they wanted Hemingway or Tolstoy they'd read that.
>>46224381
Nobody who wanted to survive. And remember, these were gods that did not show themselves in any way to be real.
>>46224393
Just get another God to fight them back. Beseech another deity to help you out, then support them down the road. I could knock over the elf gods milk shake, but I could always call Gruuumsh for a little help in the resulting scuffle.
>>46224417
So gods exist because if you say you don't believe in them other people will kill you? Doesn't sound like good proof to me...
>>46224397
>/tg/ had to like stupid shit because I like stupid shit
I may spend hundreds of dollars painting little green niggas, but I will continue to call it what it is. A stupid hobby I do out of enjoyment and nothing else.
>>46224324
>I happen to actually like some things that are worthless and pulpy.
If you derive pleasure from them and enjoyment, and especially if your enjoyment of these things in any way impacts how you spend your time, obviously then they have some degree of value.
You may as well try to argue all art and mediums of communication are intrinsically worthless. It's the same justification.
>>46224426
But what will you do if the gods refuse to help you because it would cause them to fight with another god?
>>46224495
How much you enjoy it is how you measure it's goodness and quality. There are other ways of doing it sure, but that's one of the main ones.
At the same time, one can hate something that I can also admit is good/important.
>>46224526
I can derive pleasure from pornography too, and that has no value. Enjoyment =/= value, though you can enjoy something with value and vice versa.
>>46224476
Or the god specifically will kill you. And their priest can give you a tour within their hell via a portal. Don't be dunce, these are gods that can show you that they are gods. They can fucking argue with you if they so desire.
>>46224545
You find a god with actual beef, or just don't piss off a god.
Being an a non-believer doesn't mean burning down churches. Most good aligned gods aren't going to fight you or force you to convert for no reason. You not getting their blessing is no skin off their nose.
>>46224572
Pornography has value because you can get off to it.
This is like saying tasty food has no value compared to non-tasty food.
>>46224583
Why would a god kill someone not believing in them when they won't directly kill people actively working against them?
>>46224614
But... They do? Unless those others are somehow protected by other gods.
>>46224607
You're saying porn has value because it can facilitate sexual pleasure? So the value of something is how much pleasure it gives you?
That's literally hedonism mate. And yes, some good tasting foods have no value and some bad tasting foods do. But we are talking about media not food.
>>46219746
>Gnomes are good mechanics, right?
Not really, no. That's more a Warcraft thing. D&D gnomes tend to be more feyish, living in badger burrows and hanging out with pixies.
>>46224633
They don't, because in most D&D settings gods are forced to be hands off for whatever reason.
For example, in Forgotten Realms Io is basically the God of Gods, and decides who gets to be a god and what they get to do. Gods are also dependent on mortal worship, and compete for power in that sense.
>>46224633
When? Other than the Terry Pratchett's gods hurling a lightning bolt at that atheist golem (and not killing it for that matter) I can't think of one instance where a god has smited someone for not believing in them.
>>46224676
How do you determine value?
>>46224572
Newsflash: if you can derive enjoyment from something then it has value.
This is why the porn industry exists, if it had no value to nobody would even make porn and there certainly wouldn't be a massive industry based on producing it.
>>46219290
Okay so this has been asked a thousand times, lets make this thread interesting:
How can a Godless Paladin(Code of Honor/Duty or whatever they get power form) protect himself against other gods? Do they get divine resistance or something that makes them not worth punishing?
I'd assume a Paladin with a good-aligned code would attract punishments form evil-aligned gods. Specially if they interrupt ritual sacrifices and the such.
>>46224588
Follow the quote chain.
>>46224211
States correctly that in 4e by default paladins must worship a god.
>>46224288
States you can "go full lol evil with no consequences." Implying gods will just let people sucker them for divine superpowers.
>>46224393
I imply otherwise here.
>>46224426
Does make an interesting point and a cool campaign idea with changing your divine allegiance. But that really does not refute the point I made about there actually being consequences to pissing off a god.
>>46224545
Lastly he makes the point that you better be important enough for a god to risk a godwar over your betraying ass.
>>46224755
That's not how gods work in D&D.
They might attract evil clerics to put evil divine spells on them, or evil followers of the religion would try to hurt them, but it's generally not a thunderbolts from heaven sort of thing.
>>46224736
I think LoP is the only one who smites people, and that's because they do worship her, contrary to what she wants.
>>46220033
>No. Divine magic, at least in D&D, is a power that you are channeling. It isn't a power you actually HAVE: Basically, God goes "Okay, I'll let you draw on my cosmic might."
This hasn't been true since the elder evil demon lord Sertrous revealed the black truth to mortalkind, that power comes from the world around them and not necessarily the gods on high.
So you're wrong in mechanics and in lore.
>>46224755
The same way most people avoid getting shat on by a divinity. By staying under their radar.
Sure if our godless paladin gets powerful enough he might start attracting attention. But some of it will be good attention. Be a good paladin concerned with righting wrongs and seeing Justice done, the God of Justice is going to be pretty well disposed towards you regardless of if you go to Justice Church or not. Hell he might send the clerical of equivalent of corporate headhunters to try and recruit you into his organization.
>>46224719
>Io
Ao.
Io is the primordial god of dragonkind.
Lord Ao is the ineffable Overgod.
>>46224749
So drugs like heroin and meth, and actions like rape are good because they can provide you pleasure?
Great philosophy there mate.
Aren't Godless paladins just knights, though?
>>46224861
There are good drugs and bad drugs. And good trips and bad trips.
There are good comics and bad comics.
>>46224870
Yes and no.
Paladins don't derive power from gods in most cases, hence why they aren't just clerics, so if you mean in terms of being able to smite evil and lay on hands then no.
Yes because some paladins are actually titled as knights, because they're in service to a lord or lady.
>>46224739
When it comes to media? Literally by the quality of the work itself.
>>46224861
This was never stated.
Are you just retarded or something? You can buy porn. You can't buy rape.
Lastly, Something having value =/= something being good
>>46224861
It's typically a balancing of ups and downs when it comes to pure, unfiltered utilitarianism.
Hard drugs damage the body and come with downs. Rape interferes with another's capacity for pleasure, and therefore has a huge down.
>>46224908
But I can enjoy a really bad movie.
That movie has value to me, because I enjoy it.
>>46224937
>You can't buy rape.
Now that's a matter of where you are.
>>46219290
Playing an atheist in DnD where the gods are demonstrably real and can be communicated with is retarded. If you don't worship any of them that's something else entirely.
>>46224978
You're buying a person to rape, not rape in itself.
>>46224861
So then how do you define value, if not by how much enjoyment and use a thing provides?
Is it physical worth? Cost of production and materials? or Closer to sale price, what the market says its worth? Genuinely curious as to what you think the value is set by.
>>46224908
Then what about The Room?
It's terrible, but I love it BECAUSE it's terrible.
>>46219290
As a GM I really don't like to get to involved with real religion into my games.
But if we're being technical you cannot be atheist in D&D at least not in the normal sense of it.
The definition of an atheist is
>a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
but the existence of gods in D&D isn't a question, its a fact. In real life god has no physical from no one has seen him or have any real evidence of his existence, but in D&D gods are real they come down (rarely) and beat ass, but that's the thing they are real they talk to people they get in fights and if you go far enough you can even kill them. (good or bad)
so really I don't think you could call anyone an atheist unless their just bat shit crazy and ignores everything.
maybe your a paladin that doesn't worship any god, only justice and equality.
But even then you would need the help of a god because paladins get all their spells and abilities from a divine power. so even from a maniacal stand point it doesn't seem to work, this is why when i paladin does something against their god they lose their power and that player is now just a normal fighter because your god revoked your powers, you are not longer his champion.
At least that's my take on it, I really don't like to get into huge debates about these kinda things in my games.
>>46219386
>I honestly have no idea where the idea that "paladins must follow a god" even COMES from.
Forgotten Realms.
>>46225066
>But even then you would need the help of a god because paladins get all their spells and abilities from a divine power.
Wrong.
>>46224908
What a shit definition.
Let's keep pulling this thread, then: what elements grant value?
>>46225066
>But even then you would need the help of a god because paladins get all their spells and abilities from a divine power.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that godless paladins draw power form the divine planes through his code of honor, whereas god fearing paladins have them given by their gods.
>>46224749
>Newsflash: if you can derive enjoyment from something then it has value.
>>46224937
It was doe. Yes you can actually buy that it's a mass of industry of human trafficking and sex slavery.
>>46224948
I can agree that enjoyment of things that cause pleasure, and don't cause problems to your body and mind or others bodies and minds is fine. Though I'm not seeing how these have value.
>>46224861
Now you're conflating a whoooole mess of bullshit.
Nobody said that because something is valued by someone it is helpful, or constructive, or conducive to other life goals.
One might value time spent with their family on Thanksgiving, but that doesn't mean they derive any extant benefits from it.
Clarify your terms, you're really obviously working from different definitions than everyone replying to you.
>>46225091
Well I know its different with new editions, That was a mistake of mine, me and my group of players have been playing since Advanced Edition so even with newer editions we still hold some of the old rules to heart, I like that orcs can be paladins now but some old rules just make sense. All these "Vengeance" Paladins (not saying that's what your referring to) are kinda out there for me.
In the end though the great thing about D&D is that is completely up to the GM on what works and doesn't work in the game. you can really do anything you wanted in a game.
>>46219290
No.
You can't play an atheist Paladin in a fucking world where gods are real, directly interfere with shit, and people that do are stupid.
What you can do is play a Paladin who doesn't worship a god, of course even then it's possible based upon writing concepts of how gods are that they could just support a Paladin because they like it and they feel their ideals, even if it doesn't worship them, and they never know.
Like how to be canonized as a Saint you don't have to actually be Christian or even a nice person.
>>46224197
>Obviously, but that's obviously not what OP meant by saying "Athiest" paladin. He meant a non-religious/church aligned paladin.
Atheism is LITERALLY straight up rejection the existence of any kind of God ever. It is straight up saying "No, they don't exist, fuck you."
Don't move the goalpost on behalf of the OP. It is retarded in the first place, you doing it for him is even worse.
He might as well have said "B.. but I meant Rogues, not Paladins!" because you are changing the entire premise by using a blatantly wrong word.
>>46225207
It's not even in old editions, stop pretending to be a grognard.
>>46224908
ok that solved nothing, we must go deeper
How do you determine the quality of the work
>>46225024
I'm pretty sure he is talking about value in the abstract sense over actual value.
>>46225263
>Atheism is LITERALLY straight up rejection the existence of any kind of God ever. It is straight up saying "No, they don't exist, fuck you."
That's antitheism though.
A-theism is without-theism. Anti-theism is against-theism.
Atheism is answering the question "do you believe in a deity?" with anything other than "yes".
>>46225282
but then, if it is an abstract value, how would it be determined other than by the entertainment it provides, that is what it is there to do, giving a porn a low value for lacking philosophical pondering is like saying a documentary has low value because its not amusing, that is decidedly not what it was designed to offer you to begin with.
>>46225281
The quality and beliviablity of characters, the consistency of the setting, the strength of the plot and the authors grasp of the language the work is being written in. If it contains artwork, then the quality and ascetic appeal of the art.
>>46224755
Not worshipping the gods doesn't mean being disrespectful to the gods. It's not that they're unworthy, it's just that their presence or absence is secondary to the fight of good and evil, of doing the right thing. Besides if you become enough of an outstanding paladin that evil deities are looking to take you out, it's likely you've also impressed enough righteous deities that one or two will have your back (if you'll join up with them some day of course)
>>46225409
The documentary is made with a purpose though, usually to educate or bring to light a certain issue, it could be boring and still have value.
As it's been said, it largely depends on the setting. In most D&D settings the rejection or disbelief of the existence of gods would be definitively crazy.
Rules as written in most editions, a paladin can be an atheist--but the setting often precludes that completely.
>>46225275
Except it is
>>46225484
Yes, and a porn has the purpose of arousing you, and a pulp novel has the purpose of being fun and enjoyable, Things should be judged on what they where made to provide, not on what similar things provide.
>>46225299
If you don't know what the term means, then shut the fuck up and read a book, you uneducated swine.
Atheism is often considering "impossible" for most people to even consider in OUR world, and our actual proof of Gods is flimsy as fuck already.
Antitheism is the direct opposition of religious beliefs. Think of it like the "Hate" of the "Hate/Love/Indifference" that is Antitheism/Theism/Atheism
>>46219318
Here anon, I'll give you a reply. Times are tough.
>>46225736
No, you idiot. You're the one insisting words do not mean what they mean. Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, it does not in any way imply positive disbelief.
You have seriously never heard the term "agnostic atheist", have you? Language isn't yours to make up.
threads like this make me feel like the internet is going to rip language apart untill no one can agree what anything means
>>46220033
unless the god of Atheism exist... *cuogh* warhammer...*cough*...
>>46220084
Ravenloft stopped players from comunciating with their gods. Not sure if enterily cut the link or not,
>>46219290
you cannot be an atheist in a magical fantasy world, the existence of deities is a proven fact there.
>>46225888
The common counterpoint to your statement is that the entities certainly exist, it is their divinity that is called into question. In a world where anyone can theoretically reach hilarious levels of power, what makes those few so special as to call themselves divine?
>>46225853
Well to be fair, In warhammer gods are sentiant concepts, in theory any concept could become a god, no matter how nonsensical
>>46223958
>gods in your typical D&D setting (see: Forgotten Realms) started out as extremely powerful mortals or other beings and only ascended because people believed in them.
Because surely we don't have ascended mortals as gods in human mythology, right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotheosis
Oh wait, we do, and we don't deny they are true and proper gods in their mythologies.
Seriously, this whole thread is a bunch of people going "i feel icky if i call a divine being a god."
>>46226069
>Oh wait, we do, and we don't deny they are true and proper gods in their mythologies.
We say they were called gods, not that they WERE gods.
>>46226092
Yeah, but emperor Augustus isn't here to truly bless my crops or whatever, is he?
D&D gods are. Denying them in that setting is like going to your cat and going:
a) cats don't exist;
b) sure, you look, eat and act like a cat, but are you really a cat, and not a little person that looks like a dog?
Which means you are either insane or stupid beyond measure.
>>46226325
*that looks like a cat
>>46226325
Do you believe every wizard that teleports into the middle of your village and claims to be a god?
Plenty of people in fantasy worlds can do all sorts of impossible shit, what makes gods special enough to deserve worship?
>>46219290
I'm trying to play this in real life.
Yeah yeah fedora katana. Gotta do something with this life.
>>46224218
Errrr, what happened in your pic? How did it end?
>>46220421
>Righteousness
Synonyms: tubular, radical, schway, bodacious, far out
>>46226438
>Do you believe every wizard that teleports into the middle of your village and claims to be a god?
Well shit, if he can back up that claim, yeah?
>what makes gods special enough to deserve worship?
Mortals don't sustain regions, worlds, forces of nature, or reality itself.
>>46225784
>agnostic
This is completely different.
And antitheism is the direct opposition of beliefs in gods, while atheism is the rejection of beliefs as a whole.
Agnostics are the term most "atheists" are looking for when describing their belief.
>>46226568
If I recall correctly (and I probably dont) that device makes everything equal or something of the sort and they have to play a game of baseball or chess or something with galacticus to determine who wins or loses.
>>46226596
>Well shit, if he can back up that claim, yeah?
So how do you prove /divinity/ as opposed to other supernatural events?
Yes, I even have an iconoclast religion in my game that kills "gods" and their followers, and usurps their power into Saints.
>>46226616
How is that "an end to all life as you understand it for light-years around"?
Or was Galactus bluffing?
>>46226639
I don't remember if I'm even remembering right, but if a lion is as equal to a beetle it might disrupt some things.
Each wolf is as strong as a rabbit as a man as an elephant as a car as a rocket as a star
>>46226610
>This is completely different.
No, it isn't, and your insistence as such is retarded.
Have a basic fucking infograph to explain the concepts of language to you, and what these words mean.
>And antitheism is the direct opposition of beliefs in gods, while atheism is the rejection of beliefs as a whole.
That's colossally retarded. "Beliefs as a whole"? So atheists reject the belief that the sky is blue? You're a moron.
>>46219290
There's literally no reason you can't, outside of overly restrictive fluff. There are already rules for atheist Clerics anyway.
Just replace dedication to a deity with dedication to a cause or an ideal.
>>46226630
Dunno, do something a normal mage can't?
Seriously, this is nitpicky as fuck.
"What if you aren't a god, just a being that is as powerful as one, acts like one, and otherwise shares all of it's characteristics"
>>46220421
Being a good person mostly.
>>46219943
Makes sense to me.
>>46226783
>Dunno, do something a normal mage can't?
Depending on your definition of normal, there is very fucking little a D&D mage can't do. And that's under the hopeful assumption that there are in fact things they can't do.
Furthermore, how is joe commoner supposed to know what a mage can or can't do?
>>46223838
>Just because you accept that a being exists doesn't mean that you have to accept its divinity or godhood.
you then have to question how your character somehow invented their own private definition of godhood which is different from the way everyone else in their society uses the word. it's like someone in the real world saying that dogs aren't really dogs, because in their private definition of dogness, dogs have seven legs and breathe fire. how would a person ever come to that conclusion? they live in a society where "dog" refers to a specific, concrete thing. in these worlds, "god" also refers to a specific, concrete thing. you might not like the gods, but that's different from deciding they somehow don't qualify as "gods" when everyone else around you uses "god" in that specific way, to refer to specific beings. the whole category of atheism would be pointless and reduced to dumb semantic juggling, as we've seen.
most of the time, characters get these ideas from the real world (and, often, from the player's own opinions) without it making complete sense in the context of their own society.
>>46224908
Initially, I thought you had a point but I realized you're just retarded.
>>46226927
>Depending on your definition of normal, there is very fucking little a D&D mage can't do. And that's under the hopeful assumption that there are in fact things they can't do.
Then the problem in D&D is mostly that classes are super OP.
But last time i checked, a random mage isn't Lolth tier.
>Furthermore, how is joe commoner supposed to know what a mage can or can't do?
The fact that he lives in d&d?
Not that in real life, the fact that your audience is ignorant of your credentials doesn't legitimise you.
This whole discussion is ancient astronaut tier.
"They aren't gods, they are just really advanced aliens!"
>>46226984
What is the difference between the god of puppies and a vastly powerful entity with an affinity for puppies? If you had these two being side by side, what test could you set before them to prove that one was an actual god while the other wasn't?
THAT is what the argument boils down to. In a world where gods aren't the only ones capable of phenomenal cosmic power, what makes gods special enough to deserve worship?
>>46227147
>The fact that he lives in d&d?
So everyone automatically knows the exact limits of mortal magic now? Neat.jpg
>>46227231
YOU.ARE.NITPICKING!
>>46227256
How am I nitpicking? Unless you have mind-warping insight to the inner workings of the world you live in, how are you supposed to know which guys doing impossible shit are the real gods and which are just powerful nongods? What if it turns out that all along the actual gods have been stuffed in a cellar somewhere?
>>46227296
doesnt help that for the most part gods, when stated are just divine level casters with two epic classes and extra protections
>>46227256
He's not, really. An uneducated peasant would not know the secrets of the universe by default.
>>46226754
>That's colossally retarded. "Beliefs as a whole"? So atheists reject the belief that the sky is blue? You're a moron.
Religious beliefs, you gigantic faggot. Maybe try following the conversation so you know what is being discussed.
Also
>That pic
Try an actual dictionary instead, or ask literally anyone with actual knowledge of religion. Or, if that is too fucking hard, here, I found the Wikipedia articles:
>Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities
And
>In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities
Antitheism, on the other hand:
>Antitheism is active opposition to theism.
Your shitty info picture is sorely lacking in actual sources.
>>46227296
>How am I nitpicking?
Because your argument is a super-contrarian "what if it isn't X, just something THAT IS ALMOST THE EXACT SAME THING AS X?"
because D&D scales obscenely high at lvl 20+.
It's literally arguing semantics.
Go ask WotC for their definition of a deity, then.
>>46227324
not that specific statement, his entire "what if it isn't a cat, just a feline that does the exact same things as a cat?" argument.
>>46227444
How about you wiki "agnostic atheism" next, dullard?
>>46227216
>What is the difference between the god of puppies and a vastly powerful entity with an affinity for puppies? If you had these two being side by side, what test could you set before them to prove that one was an actual god while the other wasn't?
if a person who has grown up in a society where entity A is unambigiously considered a god, and they encounter entity B which is indistinguishable from it, they are more likely to conclude that both those beings are gods, than somehow conclude that gods don't exist because they find it hard to make a distinction. you don't just decide that a category of beings don't exist because other, similar beings exist.
if real-world polytheism is any indication then people would very easily accept high-level wizards and the like as being gods.
>>46226568
It doesn't actually kill things I t just neutralizes all powers so they end up playing baseball for the planet afterwards.
>>46227444
>>Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities
This is not the same as active disbelief, X does not equal Y, your claim is rejected.
"I do not believe" does not equal "I believe not".
>All these sheeple defending invisible sky men
psh, typical
*uncrusts katana*
say goodnite
>>46219290
In a setting in which divine intervention is a demonstrable fact, no. You could, however, deny the legitimacy of "gods" as good or necessary, and view them instead as powerful and ultimately corrupt beings who are also occasional allies or just the enemy of your enemy.
Now, if you're out just to kill gods or end religion... that's not just pretty edgy, kid, but it's an enormous waste of your time and energy that could be spent doing good where gods turn blind eyes.
>>46222654
Well, I figure what people usually mean when saying "the character is atheist in (poly)theistic setting" is "my character doesn't follow any particular god".
The reasons may be many:
>I do not think the deities deserve to be worshipped
>I do not care for deities
Better word would be 'antitheistic' or 'misotheistic' ( hate of god )
A paladin might hate gods for legit reasons ( deities that have immense power to do good, but do not use it so - malevolent deities bringing woe upon world - all deities requiring tribute and worship from mortals. Wall of faithless, etc. )
>>46224937
>You can't buy rape.
Where's that rape factory screencap when you need it?
>>46227517
>agnostic atheism
>Throwing the goalpost across the globe
Stop bringing up shit that has no relation to this thread. We are talking atheism, not agnostic atheism.
I don't suddenly bring up vegetarism out of nowhere.
>>46227588
No, because that's "Antitheism"
Jesus christ guys, read a fucking book.
>>46228191
Or just areligious.
>>46228191
Oh, forgot one. "Apatheist", which'd describe total lack of interest towards deities.
>>46228341
Impious?
My current paladin doesn't worship any gods, he gets his power from the spirits of his ancestors. He is good and honorable because he wants to do right by them.
There is really very little difference between a god and a munchkin epic wizard. If anything the wizard might be more powerful, since he isn't dependant on worship for power, and could just genocide any god's followers to kill them. Is godpower being tied to followers just in planescape, or more generally true in D&D? I think its also true in FR.
>>46219290
Do you mean a Fighter?
>>46219712
The word you're looking for is anti-theist, not atheist. Being an atheist in a world where gods very much exist is just being a retard.
>atheist
>not being superior Existentialist Paladin
Do you niggas even Knight of Infinite Faith?
It's like you don't want to base your Paladin's character off of Death from Discworld. For shame.
>>46220421spook
>>46219290
Yes.
Unless you are playing Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance.
Depends on if the GM is an asshole or not. I'd say you can and it would go off the power of the human spirit, and you'd get pretty out of a can standard powers turn undead lay on hands that sort of thing.
>>46234823
They are more practicing Nontheism as a whole instead of quibbling over specifics.
