WTF i hate Space Wolves now.
>>46138934
Welcome to the club
Now read Thousand Sons and your journey will be complete.
>>46138934
Yup
This book was such a fucking disappointment. Half of it is about Remembrancer OC Donut Steel trying to pull a 13th Warrior and failing while at the same time having flashbacks of his friend messing about with Abnett's Truename magic that's slowly infested everything he does. You could seriously chop out 40-50% of the book and not lose any of the stuff that's actually about the Space Wolves, except then the ending wouldn't make any sense because instead of paying attention to Prospero the climax is all about the Wolves trying to save said OC from his Truename magic demon.
Then there's the characterization of the Wolves themselves; instead of being a boisterous bunch of rowdy vikings they're pretentious garbage faggots sitting around in the dark morosely drinking while they complain about being the Emperor's executioners, and every ten seconds another one pulls the 'hurr hurr I was just pretending to be retarded' schtick on the MC like it hasn't been done already.
I heard Abnett was having a ton of seizures trying to keep up with his workload at the time, and I believe it because the book's a goddamn mess.
>>46139451
>book's a goddamn mess
that's what happens when the author self-inserts
>>46139451
>tfw no pariah sequel, just more hh and now the beast
The worst part is that A Thousand Sons is so good. It does such a great job of setting up a narrative where the Sons are trying to safeguard the future of humanity against ignorance and barbarity and hipocrisy, and the Wolves are just huge shitheads.
And Prospero Burns DOESN'T set up the counter argument. After PB the Wolves are still hypocrites and shitheads, because instead of trying to justify their actions, Abnett spends all his time on OC Donut Steel's journey into Fenrisian foods and fashions
>>46139542
The people want explosions, not character driven intrigue. WE DEMAND BLOOD
>>46138934
Then there's the cover where Sisters of Silence are as tall as not only space marines, but a fucking primarch as well.
Just pretend that the HH novels don't exist. It's better for everyone.
>>46140525
heresy, I know, butI would be okay with that
>>46140526I really enjoyed Angel Exterminatus, but I'm biased because I play IW.
It still bugs me that Cain is using a bolt pistol on every cover he's on, despite him specifically using a laspistol in the actual stories.
>>46140705
They're supposed to be in-universe propaganda posters.
>>46140705
The book covers are his propaganda posters.
>>46140705
Propaganda.
It's explained in the books that he uses a bolt pistol when they make posters and shit of him.
>>46140748
>>46140761
>>46140765
Oh, must've either forgotten that or was from one of the books I haven't read yet.
Really wish they'd make a Cain omnibus.
And maybe more books.
>>46138995
>carnac
Is this real life?
>>46140794
They did. It costs $500 new on Amazon now.
>>46140968
The actual fuck?
>>46140968
Just looked it up. It's like $40 you fucking liar.
>>46140968
>>46141121
Not only that, it's $15 on the Black Library. Whomever you saw selling it for $500 is either insane or thinks it's some kind of limited edition thing.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Hero-of-the-Imperium.html
>>46140257
>because instead of trying to justify their actions
They don't need to justify their actions. Horus had all of the Emperor's authority. Russ followed a lawful order from his CiC.
Also
>Thousand Sons
>Not the biggest fucking hypocrites in the universe
Pick one
>>46138934
Is pic related out yet or is it just up for preorder?
>>46141474
Horus had the Emperor's authority to conduct the Great Crusade, not to order the death of his brothers. Russ was simply indulging in his hatred, Horus needed only suggest that he do so.
So how did the Thousand Sons fail to practice what they preach? It's not like the Wolves with their sorcery hate and their sorcerers. Or their barbarian hate and their barbarians. Or their mutant hate and their mutants.
>>46141621
>Horus had the Emperor's authority to conduct the Great Crusade, not to order the death of his brothers
He had all of the authority of the Emperor to command the armed forces of the legions. Russ had literally no reason to question whether or not that order was legit. Especially since the stated punishment for ignoring the Decree of Nikeae was to get your shit pushed in
>So how did the Thousand Sons fail to practice what they preach?
>Claim to be all about knowledge
>Recognise the Emperor as the greatest most knowledgeable psyker in the galaxy
>Refuse to listen when he tells them that they don't understand what they're doing and to stop sticking their hand in the proverbial fire like a retard child all because they think they know better
>>46141732
The sons all obeyed Nikea without exception. Magnus only disobeyed once, because he wanted to warn the Emperor about THE FUCKING HERESY.
It was a mistake, but it was no betrayal. The Emperor knew this, and ordered Magnus to be brought to him.
But Horus said "Hey Russ why don't you just kill everybody" and Russ said "that's all I wanted to do in the first place thanks for giving me permission"
>>46140668
Angel Exterminatus was an absolute crime against Perturabo. I will give credit to McNeil for his grand attempt to humanize the mind the most mentally inhuman primarchs, but Occam's Razor applies here, as it always does in the mindset of the Iron Lord. Simplicity is the key, expedience the goal. His is a mind entirely composed of mathematical equations, looking at the world around him in angles and percentages, statistics and numbers. Emotion is unwelcome, an unfactorable variable, but it's always there, the ghost that haunts his finely tuned thoughts. He buried his dreams and his heart on Olympia's ridges, and willingly cut all ties and dived into Hell, because his Father asked him to. He murdered millions, because his father asked him to. He broke empires, shattered armies, and his Legion bore the most grievous wounds and losses, because his father asked him to. And he ignored the implications of it all, because his Father asked him to.
Do you honestly believe none of this ground into his long lost humanity, the empty core of his being that he cut out, because his Father asked him to?
He is War-Broken. We're talking about God-Level traumatic mental disorder here. Perturabo can't control his emotions at times. He stares out at nothingness, and speaks to his past. One moment, he's unreachable, and the next he's ripping your head off because you brought him bad news. He can become utterly lost in fine details, both in crafting weaponry, and tearing down citadels. It calms him, returns his mind back the the emotionless numbers that represent hundreds of thousands of his sons dying. The further detached he became from reality, the further he tried to hide from the horror he was crafting, the worse his emotions got.
And Perturabo still buried that shit. He moved forward. He got the damn job done, and the next, and the next, with precise equations and algorithms.
>>46140257
>using flamers and horrors to teach you sorcery
>daemons insert penis into your soul
Yeah great advancement of humanity
The fact that their associated forgeworld becomes xana the dark forge that's literally insert daemon penis into machines says it all
>>46141791
If McNeil had mary sued Perty this hard people would have just turned on him. Guy was angsty enough already.
>>46141859
Like the Emperor's pacts with Chaos turned out any better. He's so fucked that there's a very serious debate as to whether he'd be better off if they just put a bullet through his head and rolled him into a ditch.
>>46140349
Behold! The world's tiniest baneblade!
Or the world's largest tank commander.
>>46141766
>breaking the golden throne beyond repair
>not a betrayal
if it wasn't a betrayal why did he send the wolves at all? why not just trust Magnus to come in on his own recognizance?
>>46141567
It's downloadable
Only new in print are a couple of audiobooks
Every single person involved in Prospero was at fault. Including the Emperor.
That's why it's a tragedy and an interesting story. At least as far as 40k is concerned.
>>46141766
Wtf are you on?
Obeying Nikea means no psyker use by space marines and technically for primarchs
We know primarchs ignored it since sanguinius still used his divination
But sons didn't stop psyker and in fact just did even more sorcery
>>46141791
Take your ptsd from raping underage sandniggers elsewhere mericunt
>>46141929
>bone heads can now crew tanks
YES
I saw them more as a sad story about how small misunderstandings where exploited to turn brother's against each other.
Nobody ever talks about how it was Horus who changed the emperors order from detaining Magnus to attack
>>46142161
Probably because if The Emps gives you the specific order NOT TO KILL someone and then the Warmaster says KILL THEM, you should at least check back with the Emps about that.
If that's not possible, NOT KILLING is probably the reasonable choice, because it's pretty hard to Unkill somebody and Unexterminate a planet.
>>46142016
No, they didn't. A Thousand Sons covers the part between Nikea and the attack on Prospero. The Sons only took up their powers again when the Wolves were killing civilians on Prospero.
>>46142254
If the Emps didn't want the TSons to be kill why did he not tell Valdor that when sending him with the fleet?
>>46142340
Probably becauseHH is shit.
>>46141188
I can't find Forge of Mars in paper. Only digital. This saddens me.
>>46142340
Just plain bad writing. Kind of like how after Valdor gets back there's never a "so uh where's Magnus he was supposed to save The Emperor" conversation.
The writers are literally not allowed to state the obvious, ever.
>>46138934
>now
>>46142254
In the original fluff, Horus indeed "changed the order" and this was just dumb writing
Black Library retconned it to Horus meeting with Russ on his way to Prospero and "convincing" him that Magnus was too dangerous to be left alive and the Emperor wasn't going far enough. Russ then tries to communicate with Magnus with Kasper Hawser who he thinks is a hidden one but in actuality is a pawn of Chaos. The message never gets through, Russ gets no response, and he further thinks Magnus is beyond saving.
It's one of the few things the HH series improved on prob
>>46142255
Bullshit
They were on prospero and that woman got a psychnuein egg in her - it was burnt out using psykery
Add in the ritual to warn the emperor and so on
The sons resisted the wolves as soon as they landed and only when the fight was going on did Magnus help
Is English your second language or are you American and so were never taught reading comprehension?
>>46142016
>legion made from the genetic matter of the second strongest psyker in the galaxy.
>"don't use psychic powers."
what was big E thinking?
>>46143871
That his superhuman soldiers could do as they were fucking told until he had the time to teach them to use their powers safely
>>46142340
This was created by Merrett for the hh ccg
The idea was this - if there are legion librarians they would have detected chaos and warned against it so how do I fuck this shit up plus make Magnus into a bad guy
The basic problem is this : great crusade Magnus is the good wizard which means Gandalf type holy magic. But how do you go from that to a daemonolgy cunt? So blame Merrett
The BL have done a half arsed explanation it seems - Magnus splinters into good and evil shards
>>46143916
yeah, meanwhile lemon rust and his band of yiffs were rolling around doing runemagic bullshit.
10/10 parenting
>>46141791
I like your take on perturabo
>>46138934
>dan abnett
into the trash it goes not even joking he is not a good writer and the gaunt's ghosts novels are pretty garbage
>>46142054
Daily reminder that moot was right about AU and EU posters.
>>46141791
Damn, I thought "Angel..." was pretty good until I read your view on Perturabo. Now it's just 'good'.
>>46141920
Think I found the heresy.
>>46146197
At least he knows how to punctuate.
Okay, as somebody new to 40k, I'm really curious how much of the Horus Heresy got defined by the new books.
What did we know about HH before the books got made? How different did things become?
>>46140525
Russ was a manlet
>>46147520
before, it was a nebulous thing that happened in the imperium's past that was nearly as mythical as the DaOT.
The basic story remains the same, but for the sake of character drama, BL added a ton of bullshit to the story that makes no sense and sometimes even overrides the charm of the series.
Basically its the star wars prequels all over again. It makes characters retarded hypocrites so that the reader can get PLOT
>>46147645
So, like, we knew who everybody was, and all that, but not how it went down? It was just vague 'Magnus delved into bad knowledge, Fulgrim got too arrogant, Angron had fucking nails in his head', and so on?
I'm mainly curious if the whole Golden Throne/webway/Magnus-blowing-everything-up thing was made up for the books, or sort of already established.
>>46148385
the basic ideas were there.
But BL shat the bed while filling the plot. Magnus delivered the warning in the initial story, but the emperor chose not to believe him because he had broken the fucking webway and told him that his favorite son had fallen to chaos. Now BL makes magnus not deliver the warning after trashing the the webway, makes russ go full murderhobo on prospero because he never double checks his orders.
>>46143290
>>46148385
in the original IA articles, Russ happened to be on Terra visiting dad when Magnus pulled his stunt, which blew out every psychic ward in the Imperial palace. Russ, having argued against Magnus and his legion's reckless use of sorcery in the past, turned to the Emperor and said LET ME AT EM. Emps, being pissed off to no end that Magnus would shit-talk Horus, said go for it.
everything else - Horus changing orders, librarians being banned, Magnus not delivering his message, the whole 'emperor's executioners' nonsense - is a BL invention or a retcon
>>46140525
Reality doesn't make for good cover art.
Why is Ciaphas Cain shown with bolt pistols at full blaze when he's always written with las pistols? Because shell casings are cool.
>>46148472
>everything else - Horus changing orders, librarians being banned, Magnus not delivering his message, the whole 'emperor's executioners' nonsense - is a BL invention or a retcon
and this is why we collectively choose to ignore stupid ass retcons.
>>46148647
bolters have shell casings? I thought it shot the entire thing.
>>46148672
Get outta here Cave Johnson
>>46141474
You DO need to justify it to the audience. You may think, for all the world, that Russ was right because you're a fanboy, or to humor you, that it's because 'he was just following orders', but that argument won't work on a neutral audience. You need to justify the wolves' actions to your reader, make them look like the heroes, like, despite them being tricked, to ultimately be who we're rooting for. People's only point is that the book failed to do that. This isn't a position inherently pro-Magnus, it's a position against this book's poor writing.
>>46148647
iirc it's explained the book covers are also in-universe propaganda art
>>46148672
Bolters are not caseless.
>>46138934
Does anyone have a link to those two /tg/ threads where a guy just linked PDFs to every HH and 40k book?
>>46138934
I liked it...
>>46143290
>and this was just dumb writing
No, it was Russ' murder boner getting the best of him and going with what he wanted to be true. It was ultimately more in-character.
>>46141920
>Believing the word if daemons
This is why Lorgar fell, by being stupid.
>>46143733
Oh, so there was saving that woman's life, and then there was the single other instance.
The Sons resisted the Wolves as soon as the Wolves OPENED UP ON THE PLANET FROM ORBIT
>>46143957
Rune magic that didn't involved daemon patronage, at least the rune priest weren't so stupid to trust daemonic entities.
>>46143871
The plot hole gets even bigger than that
>Creates primarchs by backstabbing Chaos Gods
>Knows what incredible dicks they are
>knows half or all of his clone babies are psychic
>never bother to tell any of them "Hey, if anything from the warp talks to you, they are liars and feed on your soul and just want to Bill Cosby date rape you. So avoid that."
No, it was much easier to tell everyone that abstinence is the only way to prevent real-space incursion.
>>46150912
Reread it. There's a part where Ahriman tells Magnus many of the Sons are still using their powers in spite of the Edict. It's one of the reasons Magnus stays in his tower when the wolves attack.
>>46151049
Considering the number of people believing in abstinence, that's the most believable thing out of Emperor's mouth
>>46151049
>never bother to tell any of them
He told Magnus exactly that when they first met through a psychic bond.
>>46150912
Say what you wish, the thousand sons disregard of the Emperor's orders dammed them, we could could try to justify every little thing they did, but going full daemonic sorcery have only one outcome, they are dammed, devasted, and overall fucked for not knowing their limits.
>>46151006
Nikaea banned all psykers now bro, not just sorcery.
>>46151121
Since wolves were the astartes Gestapo, I wouldn't be surprised if they were sanctioned to keep employing psykers.
>>46151202
They weren't. Russ just screamed NOT PSYKERS with his fingers in his ears and Emps was too busy to give a fuck.
>>46151226
The World Eaters chose not to care as well, but they didn't try to bullshit themselves and others about it
>>46138934
Just now... dude.
>>46151477
Is there any legion that gives less of a fuck than the World Eaters?
>>46151101
>>46151226
Russ wanted to stop Magnus SORCERY, not psykers, the only one that hated them equally was Mortarion, Russ himself knew rune casting and had precognitive talents.
>>46151555
Too bad the Emperor's edict didn't include '...Oh but rune shit is still OK, keep doing that.'
>>46151555
Nope. Hates psykers now. Sorry bro, Nikea has been retconned to make the Emperor a bigger cock.
>>46151555
>Russ wanted to stop Magnus SORCERY, not psykers
retconned in the BL series - the Wolves hate all other psykers because they believe their rune priests are granted power from Fenris itself while everyone else is drawing from the warp
no one ever actually calls them on this bullshit during Nikaea, naturally
>>46151610
The fuck are you talking about, he wasn't even present during the trails, he was on a secret room surrounded by sisters of silence in case Magnus went rampant, did you actually read prospero burns or are you just shitposting?
>>46151666
He and Mortarian prompted it to get all Psykers banned.
>>46151675
That's because Magnus planted the foundations of the librarian project, and you know daemonic pacts as part of the project, the only ones that knew better and not heading Magnus path were the SW and the white scars, because even though the Khan wasn't psykers he instinctively knew of the dangers of the warp, everyone knew Magnus was employing sorcery not psyker users.
>>46151729
Librarian project was started by Emps.
The HH is a hackjob clusterfuck of 2deep4u authors who need to cram in their own ploooootttt pottery.
In the original lore and the lore I still consider canon, the council of Nikea forbid SORCERY, which was distinct from pyschic powers, sorcery being ritualized and drawing on warp entities whereas PYSKERS were using raw strength of will to manipulate the warp while remaining immune to its corruptive influence. One is about working WITHIN the natural Eddie's and influences of the warp and is more powerful and efficient, the other is about forcing order on it which is much harder and counter intuitive, but ultimately safer.
Russ, for his part, in the original canon was sent to bring Magnus to heel but Horus approached him and told him the Emperor had changed his mind at the last minute and gave him fresh, falsified orders to purge the chapter. This bring what Russ wanted to hear because he hated sorcery, he didn't question this new directive - after all, it came from the Emperor and Horus, why would he?
>>46151791
>The early history of the Librarians is chequered with mistrust and intrigue. The Librarian training schemes were created by Magnus the Red, a powerful psyker in his own right, along with Sanguinius and Jaghatai Khan.
Don't lie anon.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Librarian
>>46138934
>Dan Abnett wrote Eisenhorn
>Dan Abnett wrote this piece of shit
He must have had someone ghostwriting this.
>>46151853
I blame the thousand sons apologists, they try to defend them but in the end they weren't betrayed by the Emperor, or Russ or the imperium, they were betrayed by the very power they thought they had mastered and it costed them everything, it was the result of playing with shit they shouldn't mess with.
>>46151910
>Someone writes a shitty book.
>Must've been that Magnus
>>46151853
no, he's just gotten sloppy and lazy over the years. he's gotten noticeably worse over time as his stuff becomes more and more meandering with navel-gazing at his own OC crap
>>46151974
This, unfortunately.
As this seems to be a 40k book thread, is there a mega with all of the Ciaphas Cain books in epub? My usual sites don't have all of them.
where did matthew farrer go? i liked his necromunda story and the calpurnia trilogy
>>46151513
Well the White Scars pretty much do exactly what they feel like. Nothing more and nothing less
>>46148385
Actually, the old story with Angron was WAY better in the IA then this BL shit.
The negative effects of the nails were MUCH slower and more gradual in the old days and Angron, while more aggressive with the nails then the other primarchs, wasn't insane by a long shot when found. He wished to die with his gladiators and never forgave the emperor, but took on his legion.
He implants the nails in the legion and, unlike BL where they become psychotic monsters quickly, the process actually works for a good portion of the crusade, with the World Eaters becoming the most powerful assault legion at the time, with major, yet costly, victories. Only those closest to Angron, Horus being the main example, realized the negatives that were happening over time.
Only when the World Eaters kill a planet in a single night do the rest of the primarchs begin to suspect something wrong, Gulliman especially. The Emperor sends Warmaster Horus to investigate, which is when Horus convinces Angron to turn with him.
World Eaters, instead of the edgy "our Primarch's broken and our legions going banana's" plot we instead had a story of a legion that enhanced themselves further then the other legions, made huge gains, but suffered eventually terrible losses because of it.
It was so perfect and laid out for them, but they wanted to try to artificially make Angron sympathetic, ignoring that the original plot could have had a much better tragic twist to it.
As a WE fan the only thing BL actually gave me was a kick ass Kharn, who is one of the most interesting and developed characters so far.Betrayer was good after all.
>>46139058
But Thousand Sons just showed how far the Thousand Sons had fallen
>>46141621
>I name you Warmaster and from this day forth all of my armies and generals shall take orders from you as if the words came from mine own mouth
You 1KS faggots are insufferable
>>46147525
You spelled "angron" wrong
>>46148448
>makes russ go full murderhobo on prospero because he never double checks his orders
I know it's hard for you to relate, but Russ wasn't working the drive through at Burger King. Hes a general in the Great Crusade, he doesn't have the luxury of "double checking" orders. That's not how it works in the military.
>>46141621
>wolves
>sorcery
>implying the other legions and modern chapters doesn't prefer to recruit from barbaric worlds because they're upright better than civilised worlds
>comparing the fenris barbarians with the world eaters degenerates.
>implying that the wulfen mutation isn't the most stable mutation than any other
Legion or chapter allowing them to still following orders or being rational.
They succeed were the traitors felled.
>>46150282
Except Russ tried to prevent it but talking to what he thought was a hidden one. Fuck, even in that 1KS propaganda book Russ had tears in his eyes as he fucked Magnus up
>>46141929
>implying every good Navy captain doesn't have a miniature battlefield simulator with miniature tanks to drive around on while they make fun of the Guard
>>46152742
It does when orders from highest up are contradicted by your direct superior.
>>46152765
Nah, he enjoyed it. Even bragged afterwards about it.
The HH novels made Magnus and his legion into total Mary Sues. Even as early as the Galaxy in Flames Loken and Tarvitz were talking and they hoped Garro made it out to warn Magnus "because Magnus the Red would never turn his back on the Emperor"
>>46152832
see >>46152629
>I name you Warmaster and from this day forth all of my armies and generals shall take orders from you as if the words came from mine own mouth
>>46152832
That's why the only version of the canon that makes sense is Horus intercepting and altering the order so that Russ only ever gets one set of orders: from the Warmaster directly, who is claiming it comes from the Emperor.
>>46152866
It's a bit different when the emps tells you something then gets contradicted.
>>46152887
I suppose.
>>46152848
1KSons being the psyker legion made them Mary Sues from the start. Especially for the subsection of /tg/ nerds who love to main casters rather than bards or paladins or martials.
>>46152896
The Emperor made clear that Horus had the same level of authority as his proxy, and the consequences of breaking the edict were clear, Russ had no reason to not trust Horus in that the Emperor had changed opinion.
>>46152896
>It's a bit different when the emps tells you something then gets contradicted.
No. No it's not you dumbass. If the fucking CEO of the company you work for announces that he's going on vacation and that the guy who is universally accepted as his #2 is taking over in the meantime, and you are to treat him as you would the CEO you listen to what the #2 guy has to say.
>>46152925
>>46152962
This is just a case and point of Thousand Islandfaggots not knowing their place in the grand scheme of things. They think that they are somehow above the law and those that make it
>>46138934
This was a great, great book.
>>46139451
...precisely because of these elements, fgt.
>>46152925
And? When the emperor says something to your face and Horus says something else, shit is up.
>>46153369
Russ wasn't on Terra on current canon and warp storms cut off communications with Terra (it was chaos gods and Horus fuckery) and Horus being the warmaster there was no reason for Russ to suspect the change of orders.
>>46152028
>>46151974
We shouldn`t forget to mention that atrocity of a book called "Legion" that he wrote.
We also shouldn`t forget to mention that it was him, who wrote the most uninspired 40k script ever for the notorious smurf movie.
And while "The unremembered Empire" was quite enjoyable to me in parts, I was honestly disappointed by "Pariah". Everything that happens in that book, could have been told in maybe 150 to 200 pages. Yes, it was a nice opener of the trilogy, but it wasn`t dense enough.
If he would write the original Eisenhorn trilogy today, he would need twice as much pages to tell the story. I`m tired of reading about the interior of a room to create atmosphere by describing the carpet, the history of the salt shaker on the table and the floral designs on the curtains for pages, just to get to the next 2 sides of something happening and then have to read through the next epicly long 40k IKEA essay. Yes, he can do that very good, no question. And yes, it creates atmosphere. But it just bloats a short story into a full blown novel and adds nothing to the main story at all and gets boring after a while to me.
I also get the point, that from a financial pov this is quite smart, of course. But it also destroys his reputation and status as maybe the best 40k author (while I liked Ian Watson a little more).
Just my 2 cents to that topic.
>>46153516
I agree wit you entirely.
>>46153369
>And? When the emperor says something to your face and Horus says something else, shit is up.
>Leman it's I Horus father's favourite son, the most trusted and respected man between our brotherhood, appointed leader by the Emperor himself, i who holds his authority and my orders are his, I bring dire news our father have changed his mind and you must kill Magnus know for disregarding our father command and the compromised made during the nikea conclave, were he was promised immediate destruction in case of breaking this edict and causing such damage to our father's life time work and disrupting the communications with Terra itself.
Why would he ever distrust Horus who at that moment was considered the most close and loyal of all the son, who earn such trust from the Emperor that was appointed supreme commander of mankind's military over Magnus the man that disregarded every command or warning of his actions, who was all too ready to abandon his tasks over his own agenda?
>>46138934
The biggest problem with Black Library is that these books are just bad. Expecting people to read these terrible books to keep up with the lore just isnt going to happen in the long run.
Obviously the HH series is never going to end so how are people supposed to keep up with the retcons and self inserts after another 30 books?
>>46152765
They were the tears of joy.
>>46153599
Because in the old fluff Russ was there in the room when Magnus delivered his warning, and convinced the Emps that Magnus was lying about Horus's betrayal.
>>46152539
That's the beauty of Thousand Sons; They're Human. In the Universe, there is every flavor of ass grabing power munchkin on all sides of the field, Chaos and Imperium alike. There are groups that can do no right and get away with murder. There are more groups that can do no wrong and get handed an asspull just in the nick of time.
The Thousand Sons fucked up, because of their own shit and things that were not told to them, and they suffered the consequences. And yet they still refuse to relent. Even diving into the depths of Chaos, Ahriman was doing it for the betterment of mankind. Magnus rages in his tower about his failure, because it cost him his legion AND his chance to save Humanity.
In the end, they're the ones that are closest to Human, excepting Salamanders and maybe Khan and a few small groups.
>>46152754
Yeah, those runes and fetishes are totally not infused with daemon taint. Tell me, is your Wolf Buttplug not an artifact of Slaanesh or are all you fucking furries liars and hypocrites?
>>46153636
Again why would they trust the man all too willing to disregard commands over a man who at the moment was the best of them all? A man who destroyed all the psychic wardens and nearly destroyed the palace over the man who was conquering the galaxy for humanity? A man that earned at that moment everybody else's distrust? A man that was called out by his brothers for his studies of the forbidden? Over Horus, the warmaster the man only seconded by the Emperor over Magnus THE WARLOCK?
>>46153703
Thats some nice hyperbole and all however just using common sense might have worked. If youve been warned someones is a traitor do you take everything they say at face value? What about when he asks you to kill the guy who warned you?
Its fine tho mate SW are loyalists so they changed all the fluff that showed them in a bad light anyway.
>>46153692
>>46153692
No, the runes and whatever are pure and approved by the Emperor.
This is canonfact.
>>46153774
>Approved
More like "Ignored because he's busy fixing the webway"
>>46153646
>Ahriman was doing it for the betterment of mankind
Hhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
The funniest thing about the Space Wolves is that, the more they try to retcon them the more Sue-like they become. The more Sue-like they become, the more dislike they pick up. The more dislike they pick up, the more their fans rabidly defend them. The more their fans rabidly defend them, the more dislike they pick up. Cute little cycle.
>>46151638
The only ones that called them on it were the accused and some of their sympathizers, there were just too many opponents, and with Mortarion, Russ, and a few other big bads leading the charge against Psykers, it wasn't politically worth getting on their shit side.
>>46153692
>Yeah, those runes and fetishes are totally not infused with daemon taint
You mean those runes that shield against the daemons and chaos on canon?, the same runes that braked the hold of chaos over the axe of that champion of khorne that's now the axe of morkai and it's totally cleansed and caused khorne to rage so hard over how his power was stolen and purified from him?, yeah, those runes are not daemon infused, all the opposite they do work all to well against chaos you double heretic.
>>46153780
The Emperor knew of Russ's ways before that and he did nothing about it.
You know why? Because he trusted Russ and knew that Fenris was pure
>>46153763
At that moment the Emperor truly believed that the primarchs and the astartes were incorruptible by chaos and made the to rise over mortal concepts like pride and selfishness, but Magnus was playing with the very forces of chaos and the Emperor knew it with all the proofs presented on nikea, meanwhile Horus was working his as to please him, Magnus tried to do the right thing but with all the worst methods.
>>46153786
Original intent; Orzhmud was the given sacrifice needed to help the Legion shepherd humanity's burgeoning psykers. Magnus noticed the trend and set up his legion to be a bunch of Warrior Monks and teachers for humanity, hence you know, collecting all of the lost info and tracking down every lead they could about psykers.
The person at fault is the Emperor, for encouraging idealistic beliefs without bound and not fully educating Magnus. "Here's how to use your infinite cosmic powers, just don't go outside the itty bitty living space." "Why?" "Reasons. But we got a lot of shit going bad, so here's a legion, help me fix it."
>>46153774
>>46153801
>>46153807
Do you people actually like that fluff? I mean if you guys are SW fans do you really like that you legion is getting turned into mary sues of the worst kind?
>>46153801
>>46153774
>Not thinking this is one of Tzneetch's asspulls and a worst case of "LOL GOT U!" in 40k history.
>>46153798
You forgot corax, corax opposed to the psyker things as much as Mortarion and Russ.
>>46153611
Now, here is what BL would have done, if they weren`t a company that needs to make money (I can`t blame them for that) and if they would really care about the fans:
They would have put the main, basic story of the Heresy, beginning with "Horus rising" and ending with the Emp put on the golden potty in maybe 20 books. They would have released 2 every year, so the authors had enough time to work on them and they would have a shitload of fans, waiting ecstatically for every new release. And all the other sidestories and characters would have been written and released too, in another series, called "Deeper into the Heresy" or something. The hardcore fans would have bought them all anyway, and the main series would have sold like crazy, because buying and collecting 20 books is a goal that everybody could achieve.
That way, they would have 10 years of reliable, high quality content and sure profit. And even after that, the sidestories could go on forever.
But here is what happened when they watered it down to the actual state we`re suffering: Less and less people are willing to spend money for the novels, because nobody wants to get disappointed time after time. So instead, a lot of people wait a little and download the books online for free. BL thinks:"Oh, we sell less copies every episode? Here`s the solution to keep the profit high : we publish even more unneccessary and shitty books and blurr the story even more! YAY!"
It is a downward spiral we`re facing.
Russ was given a direct order from the Emperor until said order was completed he was acting DIRECTLY under the emperor and was answerable DIRECTLY to the emperor. He and his Legion were given leave as an army in the Imperial military of the Warmaster and made Direct agents of Emperor of mankind, when the mission goes from detain and escort to exterminatus and you don't question it then you're either willfully ignorant, stupid or both.
Even Rogal Dorn the most obedient of the primarchs had the sense to openly question Malcador when he was acting with the full authority of the emperor.
>>46153837
>The person at fault is the Emperor, for encouraging idealistic beliefs without bound and not fully educating Magnus
The Emperor did tell Magnus to be careful with the Warp. He wasn't as instructive as he should have, but he did say that. Magnus even has a long internal monologue about it and how Magnus believed he had achieved a mastery over the Warp beyond his father - while still a loyalist.
>>46153835
Once again thats nice and all mate but this was about Russ. The Emps sent Russ off to retrieve Magnus for questioning, so even with everything you just said he wanted answers not a dead son.
Russ let himself become betray the Emperor. Every souse has the sons and Magnus as loyal in the heresy up until he ganks their homeworld. Just because Magnus was at fault does not let Russ off the hook.
>>46153838
Everybody have those defences now, the dark angels even have their own version of the book of true names in the form of Luther, Azrael binded a lord of change and left it to be killed by kharn, the white scars can perma kill daemons.
>Magnus was a bastard. Magnus was a liar. Magnus would look you in the eye and lecture you while he blundered through the immaterium like a raging konungur. Hel, we always knew more than him- what to touch, what not. Our bone-rattlers knew more than him, There's intelligence, and there's hubris. I don't grieve for Magnus, not for a second
-The Wolf King
>>46153868
>>46153882
The Emperor literally said, multiple times, to obey Horus as if his words were the Emperor's words. This isn't like Malcador, the Emperor told them all Horus was in charge in full view, in public with witnesses.
>>46153599
>>46153703
It wasn't Mags word vs Horus's word, it was the Emperors direct word vs Horus. It would be understandable if it were the former and Russ had acted but it was the latter.
>>46153882
>‘Magnus, Magnus, Crimson King, brother of mine,’ he said. ‘I know you can hear me. You planted this instrument, this poor unwilling fellow, Ibn Rustah, you planted him among us so you could learn our secrets. Guess what? We’re as smart as you. Smarter, perhaps. We saw your spy for what he was, and we made no effort to remove him. We kept him with us so we could look back at you, Magnus. So we could learn your secrets. An eye can look out and it can look in. You should know that, you who look deeper than most.’
>‘I’ve got nothing to hide from you, Magnus. Nothing. You know how I work. My enemies should know what’s coming to greet them. It fixes them in the right mental place to be annihilated. I don’t like to hide my strengths or my approach. I’d rather my foe knows the full, unimaginable fury that is about to descend upon him.’
>‘That’s not why I’m talking to you now. I’m talking to you because I hope you’ll listen. I’m talking to you as the personal courtesy extended from one brother to another. What is about to happen should not be happening. You know I do not want this. You know it tears my heart to commit against you, and it breaks the very soul of our father to place his sons in opposition. But you have done this. You have brought this. You have brought this action.’
>>46153858
>Tzeench
>doing shit
You have to be a follower of Tzeench to be fucked by him, Dorothy soloed his maze, outsmarted the guardian of the maze and learned all the secrets it had.
>>46153909
>‘We gave you every chance, Magnus. We indulged your learning, we gave you room to explore. When we became fearful of where those explorations were leading you, and how they might endanger everything we value, we told you of our concerns. The Council at Nikaea, that was supposed to be a moment of reconciliation. You swore you would renounce the cunning arts. You swore! You swore you would abide by our father’s ruling!’
>‘You did not. You have proved your intent to ignore the Ruling of Nikaea beyond all doubt. So this is on you. You must have known our father’s hands would be tied. He would have no other option than to turn to me to issue sanction.’
>‘This is a courtesy, then. From brother to brother. A grace period I would extend to no other enemy. Settle your affairs. Evacuate the civilians from your cities. Deactivate your defence systems. Bring yourself and your Thousand Sons out into the open, and prepare to surrender to me upon my arrival. Please, Magnus. The Wolves of Fenris have been unleashed upon you. Only you have the power to make the consequences bloodless.’
>‘Please, Magnus. Please.’
-Prospero Burns
>>46153897
Yes but acting commander cannot contradict the commander regardless of how much authority he has been bestowed. If the Emperor and Horus both give contradicting orders who do you believe? The Emperor did not tell Horus to send Russ, the Emperor told Russ directly and sent him as his personal agent.
>>46153919
>>46153909
Lol. The best part of that is that he is entirely wrong. He didnt outsmart anyone he is completely wrong again. Hes talking about a chaos pawn that Magnus had nothing to do with.
>>46140794
I'm glad it stopped where it did. The last three books seemed to lack the fun/energy of the first six. Plus, the sixth book feels like the true end (probably because it was supposed to be).
>>46153901
You mean the same Horus who was appointed as warmaster? Who's orders were the same as the Emperor's own? The man everyone trusted and favourite of the Emperor? And in old fluff it was basically Horus word vs Magnus, since Magnus nearly destroyed the palace over good guy conquering the galaxy at that very moment Horus?
>>46153919
>The Wolf King turned to Helwintr and the escort.
>‘Take him away, but keep him with us, right to the advance. I want that channel to my brother left open. My poor brother. I want him to see us coming. I want him to know it’ll never be too late for him to beg for mercy.
I sick and tried of Magnusfags trying to rewrite history.
Russ made multiple attempts to get Magnus to surrender. He was willing at anytime to spare Magnus.
But you know what happened? The daemons and the god whom Magnus bargained with caused misinformation to spread around and facilitated the break down of communications between both legions.
It got even worse when the Wolves arrived to a planet crawling with mutants and daemons. All thanks to Tzeentch who activated the fleshchange.
If anyone is to blame, then it's Magnus who summoned Tzeentch and his daemons in the first place.
>>46153940
Well at that moment you didn't expect the literal God of deceive was fucking both sides at that moment and the man with history of poking his head were he isn't welcomed and capable of such thing hadn't try that.
>>46153940
Irrelevant. All of this shows that Russ wasn't there to kill Magnus like you fuckers keep claiming.
Tzeentch saw that both parties manipulated and the guy who summoned Tzeentch is to blame.
>>46153953
>rewritting history
Man that is just too fucking rich. Actually salty now. SW have had every flaw rewritten to be a positive, every mistake a victory. Seriously fuck off. Sons fans admit Magnus fucked up in destroying the webway. I think his decision was justified by his ignorance and his plan to warn the Emperor, but he still cocked up. Russ fags can even fucking admit to a single mistake, one that used to be central to their history.
Russ did make a mistake. He got used by the arch traitor and wasnt there when the Emperor need him. Deal with it russ fags.
>>46153939
Because the Emperor couldn't answer back because of the gate of hell Magnus opened on Terra and chaos fucking with communications, then you have the man second in command and chosen of the Emperor by his own words telling you that before communications went off he ordered to destroy Magnus for his crimes, now if you can't confirm and have the man with the same level of authority as the Emperor and all his trust telling you he changed mind why wouldn't you belive him?
>>46153998
>Russ did make a mistake
By being manipulated by the god Magnus summoned?
You guys just won't quit despite the fucking green text from the novel? Get this through your head. Russ wanted to take Magnus alive and tried to do so until the very end.
There is no ifs and buts. Russ was a victim of Magnus's folly and nothing more.
>>46153947
Are you actually implying the Warmaster had the same authority as the emperor? Formalities out and technicalities in there is a clear difference between the emperors authority and that which Horus had.
The very heresy is proof enough of this fact, the fact that the loyalists exist is proof of this fact, because some were loyal to the emperor and others were loyal to the Warmaster. The point in which you question the Warmaster is when his orders directly contradict that of the Emperors. And the smart cookies did it. Russ was no smart cookie.
>>46153998
>Sons fans admit Magnus fucked up in destroying the webway.
That's an outright lie, sons fags always come up with the "nothing wrong" shit, there is a reason that's a meme here.
>>46153974
>>46153982
I dont know where to start. That quote shows how exactly out maneuvered Russ was and he posted it a proof of Russ's forgiveness. All it actually shows is how much of a tool Russ was.
>he didnt expect
>manipulated
And he feel for it. Russ was a tool for Chaos during the Heresy. Doesnt matter how loyal you are if you arnt there when your needed.
>>46154028
>Tzeentch
>Summoned
Lol.
>>46154037
Thats the meme anon.
>>46154029
It's canon anon bitch deal with it see>>46152629 Magnus was an idiot for using forbidden shit to show his loyalty, every loyal primarch was played by Horus all of them, ask the blood angels on signus prime, the ultramarines at calth, the wolves at prospero and all the others that died at isstvan, even half of the white scars turn traitor and pledged loyalty to Horus.
>>46154055
>I dont know where to start. That quote shows how exactly out maneuvered Russ was and he posted it a proof of Russ's forgiveness. All it actually shows is how much of a tool Russ was.
A proof that proves that you guys were lying. You claimed that Russ came to the planet with murderous rage and wanted to kill Magnus. This proves that he wasn't. He came to arrest Magnus and was willing to spare him.
>And he feel for it.
Yes, because the god whom Magnus summon was there to mess things up.
>>Summoned
Yes, gods attetions can summoned. Magnus brought the attetion of Tzeentch and his daemons to the planet.
You guys excuse Magnus for being manipulated by Tzeentch but for Russ? noooo.
>>46154037
Magnus fucked the webway bigtime, he was way too proud and wanted to show dad that sorcery had it's perks, Magnus should have been severely punished for his ego but his warning should have been heeded. The benefit of his message should not have excused him for his many crimes. I am not a sons fan in any way shape or form, but Russ was Borderline retarded, I mean the character has good qualities, it's just in this instance the writers just wrote him as a retard.
That's the thing with these HH/Primarch threads, everyone thinks that just because a story has someone in the wrong the opposing force must be in the right, when in reality all parties are in the wrong objectively and neutral at best subjectively.
>>46154055
Because at that moment nobody expected literal gods to manipulate the events that lead to the heresy, only the Emperor knew and very few close to him of the gods without being pawns of them, can you blame him for not thinking about the now forgotten and disproved gods of ruin?
Also there was a mass summoning of Tzeenchian daemons during the invasion of prospero.
>>46152629
>>46154088
Once again Russ was a direct agent of the emperor similar to Malcador or the Custodes, Horus does not hold authority over them. That is canon.
>>46152765
>Prosperan genocide, best day of my life.
>>46154055
>A secular atheist empire must consider the intervention of gods in their decision making so they aren't deceived
This is a new level of stupidity congratulations anon you're the biggest idiot on this thread.
>>46154089
>You claimed that Russ came to the planet with murderous rage and wanted to kill Magnus
I said no such thing. I know that they retconned all the mistakes of Russ and his legion. I think it hilarious that you like that new fluff but thats your prerogative.
You cant say that Magnus fucked up and then claim Russ didnt? Magnus was tricked by Tzeentch leading to him destoy the wards. That was his mistake. Russ attack Propero was his. Why isnt it Russ's fault?
>Magnus brought the attetion of Tzeentch and his daemons to the planet.
Waht do you mean by this? If you think Tzeentch was only interferring at Prospero then you are very confused.
>>46154111
>nobody expects
So why was Magnus at fault then? Mgnus was at fault because he should have known better. Russ should have known better from your own port of view as well then.
>>46154156
Yeah I agree Anon. Magnus did nothing wrong. How could Magnus have known about the Chaos God tricking him?
>>46138934
This maybe be because of the late hours for me, or that I am putting in way to much time on /his but I feel the need to explain some thing about the HH novels to its critics.
Civil Wars are messy things.If it is not over a disputed succession the vast majority of the time the standing government has done a great deal of wrong.Even large well funded coalitions of third parties have a lot of issues getting the war started without a lot of hurt feelings or battling ideologies to work with. Usually most of the important actors will not keep their hands clean during the war.
Some people here hate the HH series because it show that the big E was a bit of a fuck up in managing his court/family and that some of the loyalist primarchs did in a limited way cause the bad blood in court/family.
If Chaos did not have issues to work with it would not of got very far in starting the civil war. After corrupting Horus, even with how much of a silver tongue he has, would not of gotten very fair in getting support if people were not mad at the big E.
>>46154129
He did you idiot, that was the whole idea of appointing him warmaster, perhaps not over Malcador, but definitely yes over Russ stop making shit up.
>>46153807
He ignored it because he wasn't paying attention to what anyone was doing.
>>46154110
Shut up.
Only someone who hasn't read the novel would say that. Russ being manipulated by Tzeentch is not his fault but the fault of the guy who brought the attention of the God of Lies to the planet.
What was Russ suppose to do with him being fed misinformation by daemons in disguise and witnessing an entire planet of mutation and daemonic filth?
>>46152765
>Warp into a system
>Find the planet practically defenseless
>Better shoot all those civilian ships trying to get away
>Better bombard the planet from orbit
>Deploy to the planet
>Hmm my brother isn't out here, better trash literally everything in sight until he comes to fight me
Tried to prevent it? Really? Is that what wolf apologists believe?
>>46154175
This is also true anon, that's why Magnus was actually surprised when everything he did was fucked up and exploding on his face.
>>46154201
I know that dumbass just didnt realise how shitty his argument was so I thought I'd just show him.
>>46154193
So the Emperos fault then? I mean he created the Primarchs and forced the Chaos powers to focus on the mortal realm to destroy him so if Tzeentch was interested at all it must be his fault right?
>>46153913
That reference does not prove what you think it does. If what you said is true there shouldn't be any followers of tzeentch to begin with.
>>46154179
Authority over the Emperors Army. Russ was withdrawn from the Crusade temporarily by the emperor and given this mission as his personal agent just like malcador and the custodes, it's been done many times in the fluff by many different people and it's been done many times in real life.
The emperor went directly over Horus's head and gave Russ a mission. Any other primarch from the Lion to the Khan, even Lorgar would have followed orders to the letter..
>>46154193
>entire planet of mutation and daemonic filth?
Russfag plz stop.
>>46154157
>So why was Magnus at fault then?
Because he disregarded orders and endangered the future of humanity for no reason but spite, that's why there was no reason to doubt Horus but all the reasons to distrust Magnus, the orders were clear and sanctioned by high command and without the Emperor and Terra blocked from any communication by Magnus magic trick it seamed reasonable for the Emperor to change his mind, Magnus cut off the heart from the body of the Imperium turning everything into disarray.
>>46154157
>You cant say that Magnus fucked up and then claim Russ didnt? Magnus was tricked by Tzeentch leading to him destoy the wards. That was his mistake. Russ attack Propero was his. Why isnt it Russ's fault?
Russ had no idea he was being manipulated by Tzeentch. He had no defense or recourse in the matter. Magnus on the other hand knew he was being manipulated by the entity he was bargaining and he thought he could outsmart it.
>Waht do you mean by this?
Read the book why dontcha? After the breaking of the Webway, Tzeentch appeared before Magnus to tell him he will collect the price that was owed for him for helping Magnus. He activated the flesh change and poured his daemons into the planet.
Magnusfags confirmed illiterate.
>>46154193
The same thing, the lion did when he was getting fed lies by the same demonic forces, the same thing Vulkan did when he found his people living in peace among the eldar, the same thing Ferrus did when his best friend and most treasured sibling tried to bring him to the dark side.
FOLLOW
ORDERS
>>46154195
They did destroyed the orbital stations, it's the sensible thing to do to prevent them from escape, the burning of prospero was because the thousand sons legion was prepared to attack when the wolves were on orbit, with the thousand sons diged around their central command what would you expect?, this wasn't a friendly visit, this was a retribution force.
>>46154209
How is that dumb? Neither Magnus or Russ had to take gods and daemons into consideration.
>>46154239
> for no reason but spite
Lol. Now your just making stuff up. Just admit Russ made a mistake in destroying Prospero. He carried out the will of the arch traitor and thats a fact.
>>46154241
>Russ had no idea he was being manipulated by Tzeentch.
Magnus had no idea he was being manipulated by Tzeentch though?
>Magnusfags confirmed illiterate.
All your arguments follow a logic that would forgive Magnus for his mistakes. If only you could see that I'm only arguing by putting your arguments back on Russ. It is funny watching you jump through hoops to excuse Russ however.
>>46154233
There is a difference between geneseed unstable mutants and spawns of chaos like those suffering the flesh changes.
>>46154269
HE WAS FOLLOWING ORDERS
He was prepared to bring Magnus back at any time if Magnus surrendered, despite daemonic manipulation and Valedor's insistence that Magnuis to be destroyed.
> Vulkan did when he found his people living in peace among the eldar
Vulkan disobeyed orders from the Emperor to conquer the planet and harvest its a abundant resources. He torched the place because he wanted to.
>>46154231
That included astartes, and even Constantin Valdor encouraged Russ into killing the thousand sons, everyone wanted them dead.
>>46154231
>the Lion to the Khan, even Lorgar would have followed orders to the letter..
>other primarchs going to prospero
>Horus change the orders
>they follow it and rase prospero
All the primarchs headed Horus he was the Emperor's chosen, all did follow Horus orders, even the fucking Khan.
>>46154326
>Missing the point this fucking hard.
Lol.
>>46154290
>Magnus had no idea he was being manipulated by Tzeentch though?
You idiot.
He knew he was being tricked by the entity in the Warp. Magnus thought that by his sorcery, knowledge, and smarts that he will escape the bargain he made with the entity, that he was beyond the consequences.
He was proven wrong and was shown that the Warp and the entities within cannot be tamed.
Russ, on the other hand, unknowingly stumbled into the mess that Magnus engineered with his hubris. He fell victim to the manipulation of the entity that Magnus brought to the planet.
The book goes in detail how Magnus fucked up[ royally and that how his soul already belonged to Tzeentch,
>>46154284
Wrong.
Magnus knew of the entities within the Warp. Despite the Emperor and Amon telling him not to deal with them, he attempted to bargain with them and found Tzeentch.
>>46154290
>Lol. Now your just making stuff up. Just admit Russ made a mistake in destroying Prospero. He carried out the will of the arch traitor and thats a fact.
I know he didn't do it because of spite, but what else would those who knew him would thought when he brakes the Emperor's webway and disappears with no reason? Because in current fluff he didn't even delivered the warning out of shame.
>>46154340
That just makes it worst, if Magnus knew he was more stupid than I thought, Russ was right about their bone reading dudes knowing more than Magnus
>>46154340
>He knew he was being tricked by the entity in the Warp.
So not what you said at all then?
Also you keep on saying this
>that Magnus brought to the planet.
Tzeentch is not some pet that gets ordered around. He was involved with the scattering of the Primarchs. Blameing his involvement in the heresy on Magnus is next level denial anon.
So in the end all youre saying is that Magnus should have known better then Russ because? He was smarter? Better? Not illiterate?
>>46154343
But even if thats what you think anon, the Emperor didnt order Russ to kill Magnus. Think about it ok. Russ did not follow what the Emperor wanted and served Horus. This is a fact.
>>46154373
Hes saying that the others would follow the orders of the Emperor to the letter. The other Primarchs weren't betas and made their own decisions.
>>46154340
>>46154386
Also samefag
>>46154338
How so? Even if other primarch was chosen they still would had to follow Horus orders, hell he even take advantage of Magnus fuck up to destroy him along the wolves to easy his invasion on Terra, Magnus fuck it up when he thought he could outsmart a chaos sponsored Horus when Tzeench knew everything he did due the pact they both made.
>>46138934
>Russ, what is this? What are you doing, my son?
> Succeeding you, father...
>>46154423
>Tzeentch is not some pet that gets ordered around. He was involved with the scattering of the Primarchs. Blameing his involvement in the heresy on Magnus is next level denial anon.
The attention of the gods can be summoned to certain areas, you idiot. Magnus brought the full attention of Tzeentch and his daemons to the planet.
>So in the end all youre saying is that Magnus should have known better then Russ because?
Because Amon and the Emperor specifically warned him about the entities of the Warp. He laughed at the former and disobeyed the latter. Magnus has met the Chaos Gods before the Emperor found him. Magnus had all the warnings in the world and he ignored them.
This is why Malcador doesn't blame Horus for his fall but totally blames Magnus because and I quute "HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER".
>>46153570
>>46153516
What was wrong with "Legion"?
I loved the depiction of the Alpha Legion in that
>>46154386
I know, right?
>>46154423
>Also samefag
Try again Tinkerbell
>But even if thats what you think anon, the Emperor didnt order Russ to kill Magnus. Think about it ok. Russ did not follow what the Emperor wanted and served Horus. This is a fact.
That's true, after this Russ knew of Horus betrayal and that Magnus wasn't lying, but at that moment there was no reason to doubt Horus the Emperor's proxy and also this is the reason why the wolves doesn't follow orders blindly anymore
>>46154473
Magnus offered his soul to Tzeentch to save his legion. With each subsequent bargain with Tzeentch he gave more and more to the god until his legion and himself became slaves to Tzeentch.
>>46154456
>The attention of the gods can be summoned to certain areas, you idiot. Magnus brought the full attention of Tzeentch and his daemons to the planet.
Lol. Once again you bais shows through. Tzeentchs attention was already on Magnus from the time he was created. Blaming him for it is laugh worthy.
But Russ was warned as well right? About Chaos and about Horus being a traitor? So he was extra warned and still got manipulated into helping Horus destroy the Imperium.
Just answer me this Russfag did the Emperor orders Russ to kill Magnus? Was this what he wanted? Or was it what Horus wanted? You can think what ever you want about Magnus and Russ be you can never deny that he didnt serve Magnus up to Tzeentch and serve Hous during the heresy.
>>46141567
Is this finally the end of the HH?
>>46154473
>>46154506
god black library is terrible. beware death guard fans theyre coming for you next.
>>46154509
>But Russ was warned as well right? About Chaos and about Horus being a traitor? So he was extra warned and still got manipulated into helping Horus destroy the Imperium.
When? I don't remember this? Are you talking about current fluff or older editions?
>>46154509
>But Russ was warned as well right?
He wasn't warned about gods nor was he tutored by scholars and the Emperor about the dangers of the Warp and the entities within.
>About Chaos and about Horus being a traitor?
So was the Emperor, Valdor, and the rest of the Imperium. Nobody believed Magnus. He had no proof to his claim.
>Just answer me this Russfag did the Emperor orders Russ to kill Magnus?
Magnus served himself to Tzeentch (see >>46154506). His soul already belonged to Tzeentch, the price of saving his legion.
Russ tried his best to arrest Magnus to the very end. It's not his fault that daemons and a bloody god got in the way.
>Lol. Once again you bais shows through. Tzeentchs attention was already on Magnus from the time he was created. Blaming him for it is laugh worthy.
Not totally. Tzeentch waited for the best moment to strike and Magnus opened the way for him.
See (>>46154506).
>>46154509
>Just answer me this Russfag did the Emperor orders Russ to kill Magnus? Was this what he wanted? Or was it what Horus wanted? You can think what ever you want about Magnus and Russ be you can never deny that he didnt serve Magnus up to Tzeentch and serve Hous during the heresy.
True, Horus deceived Russ to destroy Magnus and this caused Magnus to fall to chaos, but you know what else? Magnus helped Russ to do this, he took it all for himself, he tied the rope around his neck and gave the other end to Russ, he took all the wrong decisions, all the wrong paths and that lead him to that end, if he would stop for one moment to see how everything was pointing him as the guilty he could had stop it, he didn't he thought himself better, wiser, without fault and that dammed him, and that's why he never left his tower until he couldn't do anything but blame those who destroyed him for his own mistakes.
>>46154562
I just forgot something.
Magnus wanted to die. He knew he was going to become an instrument of Tzeentch and his only way out was suicide by Russ. This explains why he personally made no attempts to surrender.
The death of his own legion forced him out of this path and made him fight Russ instead of allowing himself to be killed. He teleported himself and his legion away rather than face his judgement.
>>46152962
Except soldiers also have direct doctrine to prevent them from doing shit like shooting the next company to pieces, and instead turn in the commander for being batshit. If the Space Wolves were actually following true military doctrine, they would have dragged Horus back to the Emperor to explain himself.
>Magnus sold his soul to Tzeentch to save his legion from the Flesh Change
They saw Lorgar was the first fallen primarch but I guess that's not true. Magnus fell way before him.
>>46154634
They say*
>>46154612
That would just ended with the wolves destroyed by Horus and the thousand sons to degenerate to warp spawns psychic mutants.
Also by that moment Horus was the most trusted son of the Emperor and second in command, there wasn't any reason to mistrust him, and the Emperor was under extremely psychic stress because of the daemonic gate Magnus opened.
>>46154634
Lorgar was the first that openly and whole heartily gave himself to the chaos gods, Magnus wasn't aware of that, he didn't knew he was a Russian spy on America during the cold war and he was already framed to allow the Russians an to invade them and take the control.
If the Blood Ravens are TS loyalists, then how come they are not affected by the Flesh Change? It's said that their geneseed is among the purest.
>>46154684
That's because it's just a rumour anon, no one truly knows what legion they hail from, it's even speculated that they are loyalists Luna wolves because Abaddon said they belong to him.
>>46154730
>loyalists Luna wolves because Abaddon said they belong to him.
The Blud Ravehns grow more sue-ish by the moment.
>>46154767
Name one canon chapter that isn't sue-ish.
>>46154783
They at least have the excuse of not coming from anoverratedvideo game series.
>>46154811
Hey DOW 2 was pretty good
>>46152899
>mary sue
>having one of the biggest character flaws in the entire fucking heresy and ultimately losing everything and getting their shit wrecked.
jfc, that word has truly lost all meaning.
>Magnus makes a deal with Chaos to do something good but backfires and causes problems
>he's an evil traitor that deserves everything he got
>Emperor makes a deal with Chaos to do something good that backfires and causes problems
>totally justified
The Emperor is the biggest fuck-up of the HH. Anyone that dislikes Magnus for his hubris and also doesn't dislike the Emperor is a hypocritical retard whose opinion is worthless. The Space Wolves are easily the worst, most Sue-like legion, and the fact that they have so many brain-dead fans is appalling.
Christ, even Lion'el "Loyalty is Its Own Reward" Jonson thought Nikea was retarded and chose to disregard it.
>>46150104
Got you covered
>>45990700
Post yfw an inquisitor is defending Logan grimnar as the greatest living war leader and having a go at dark Angels for being over zealous
Is this the rise of a new Ordo - Ordo Reasonablous?
>>46155867
“While civilian losses are regrettable,’ de Mornay made a point of glancing at Asmodai, ‘I was referring more to the burning of an entire Great Company of your fellow Adeptus Astartes.’
‘Fire-bombing Midgardia will not damage its underground habitats,’ Azrael said. ‘And that was Grimnar’s last recorded location. If by the Emperor’s will he yet lives, he will be unharmed.’
‘And when he emerges he’ll be stranded in a toxic ash waste.’
‘If you have an alternative suggestion, Lord Inquisitor, by all means share it. I would have thought that as a member of His Holy Ordos you would have rejoiced at the mass annihilation of mankind’s darkest foes.’
‘Rest assured, nothing pleases me more,’ de Mornay said. ‘But less so if the victory comes at the price of one of the Imperium’s greatest leaders.’
‘I never thought I would live to hear the Inquisition praising Logan Grimnar.’
‘Times can change, Azrael. A”
Excerpt From: MacNiven, Robbie. “The Lost King.” iBooks.
>>46154521
No, just the next pile of short stories they shove down our throats, nothing more.
>>46155935
Nurgle really ought to have krokodil.
>>46154730
oh fuck off. Its all but confirmed that they are 1k son descendants.
>>46153939
>If the Emperor and Horus both give contradicting orders who do you believe?
They aren't contradicting orders. The most recent order supersedes earlier orders. That's how chain of command works.
What's the most recent source on Horus's intervention with Russ's orders? Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons don't deal with that actual event.
Somewhat on topic, but apparently according to this we know the Chapters that are currently attacking the Yiffs at the behest of Azrael
>Dark Angels
>Ultramarines 6th Company
>Iron Hands Clan Haarmek
>Guardians of the Covenant
>Consecrators
>Angels of Absolution
>Angels of Vengeance
>Red Talons
>Marines Malevolent (ALLY KILLING WHEN)
>Red Consuls
>Red Hunters
>Howling Griffons
>Doom Griffons (new chapter)
>Shadow Haunters (new chapter)
>>46151824
This makes so much more sense and makes the Space Wolves not come off as completely hypocritical assholes.
>>46138934
This book and Thousands Sons destroyed everything enjoyable about the Sons just to give yiff fags more to masturbate over.
>>46154465
I liked the AL depiction, but the plot was ridiculous. The Cabal was 180 degrees wrong, so either they're stupid or they wanted the end result that actually happens, but there aren't enough hints to suggest the latter. Alpharius is stupid for taking their vision at face value.
Clearly the Alpha Legion was large enough to make the Heresy much shorter if they'd double-crossed Horus. And after everything they'd done it sounded like a bit of a stretch to claim they were 100% with the Emperor.
>>46156590
But the TSons themselves do nothing wrong. It was all Magnus's fuck-ups.
>>46156771
They just need to show that one of the brothers really wanted to go Traitor. Hopefully we'll get another AL book focusing on the Legion fighting itself as much as it fights the Loyalists.
Maybe we'll get lucky and get some loyalist Alpha Legion in a FW book.
>>46156979
Using tzeentch daemons is right?
Burning the souls of mortals to fuel sorcery is right?
Lads we got a Trump supporter here
>>46154684
because the flesh-change was never about geneseed, the Sons were just retarded.
The same novel that introduced the flesh change (ATS) also had the plot point that Magnus 'solved' it when reunited with his legion, only for it to come roaring back during Prospero.
Consider: in reality there was no defect with the TS geneseed (apart perhaps from a tendancy to awaken psychic latency) - it was merely their aggressive use of sorcery that provoked rampant mutation, possession, and insanity. Except the legion didn't understand how dangerous the warp could really be, so instead of stopping with that nonsense they chalked it up to a gene-seed defect.
When Magnus made his deal with Tzeentch to protect the legion, Tzeentch did not actually do anything to the Sons. Instead what he did was put the legion under his protection, removing them from what would otherwise be the consequences of their continued rampant use of sorcery. At Prospero, incensed by Magnus' refusal to play along, Tzeentch withdrew this protection and the Sons immediately went to hell as mutation started coming back and the little warp-spirits they'd kept around as familiars reverted to their natural aggressive nature.
So from this thread we can take away the lesson that both 1K Sons and Space Wolves are a bunch of dindu nuffins.
>>46156506
It was good an therefore had to die in the fires of HH.
