Why does /tg/ hate mary sues so much?
>>46082629
Why do you fucking THINK we hate the poorly-written self-entitled, obnoxious, unrealistically perfect, flaswless, bland little shits, OP?
Fuck's sake; work on your bait.
>>46082629
If you're posting that comic and don't understand why, I fear you are already lost.
We must now ritually kill you and eat your cook flesh, as it is the only way to be sure the taint doesn't spread.
>>46082665
Exterminatus may be the only solution.
>>46082665
*appears with cleaved* dis gona be gud
Someone has to. Even if it is the truly insane in a mad world.
>>46082629
It's not just us, everyone hates a Sue.
>>46082629
Disruptive, superificial attention hogs that don't even have the basic good manners to be interesting in the first place.
>>46082629
I think Spock's got the right perspective on this one
>>46082629
Because flaws are interesting.
>>46082879
But characters who fall into the "anti-Sue" trap and are nothing but flaws are not. An important distinction.
>posts the reason why we (and pretty much everyone who cares) hate mary sues
>proceeds to ask why we hate mary sues
gee numbnuts I hope we all gain some valuable insight from this beautifully crafted thread
>>46082629
Is it a blessing or a curse that Sisko's name isn't in there?
>>46082872
Which Spock?
>>46082629
Assuming you're not baiting harder than a teen in bikini season, because people who play Mary Sues like to be the center of attention, and want to be the "protagonist" of the game. This goes poorly with games that are centered around a group rather than an individual, which is most of them.
>>46082942
Kinda depends on how you define anti-Sue. There's a popular definition out there in which an anti-Sue has flaws on paper, but people sill love them and the universe still revolves around them, so it's hard to count those as "flaws" in practice.
>>46082629
Because sexism, or something.
>>46083068
I always thought that was just a regular Sue.
There's a reason Sues are stereotyped as clumsy.
>>46083122
>Looks like this essay was needed
Gonna have to disagree.
>>46083122
She misses the core conceit of a Mary-Sue: They are not fun to read about. Be it because they are unlikeable, boring, irritating, immersion-breaking or whatever, they make you want to roll yer eyes and pick a different book. Being too perfect or too flawed or whatever just makes them a Mary Sue instead of a run-of-the-mill bad character
>>46083122
But Batman doesn't beat superheroes with "ease". In most cases he either had them beat beforehand, he barely scrapes by (probably worse off than the guy he beats), or he just loses.
That's like bitching the enemy army murdered the fuck out of yours when they held a chokepoint and rotated men regularly while you blindly charged at them.
That guy was a fucking moron.
>>46082817
It's true, we do hate ourselves
Is there any way to defeat a Mary Sue?
Some sort of intrinsic flaw behind having no flaws?
>>46082791
Not women
>>46082982
best post
>>46082629
Ensign Sue a cute! CUTE!
>>46083420
where's that harry potter comic where they all get sorted into house sparklefart or whatever
>>46083420
Gather them together and tell them there can be only one.
We settle this shit Highlander style.
>>46083317
Well sure they're not fun to read about, but what about watching or playing? Arguably Dante is a massive Mary Sue when it comes to him fighting, but he's entertaining and lovable enough to ignore the sue part. Same thing with allot of overpowered characters that are fun to watch or play as if you can get the gameplay or scenes correct.
That doesn't mean you don't have to make them likable, but you do need to make sure the action distracts from the Sue complex.
Has any Star Trek media ever referenced Mary Sue? Seems like the kind of thing some author would do as a joke at some point.
>>46083524
>Dante is a massive Mary Sue
Not really. He has the same exceptional backstory as Vergil, his powers aren't that absurd compared to what he's fighting, and people don't always take an immediate liking to him or go out of their way to associate with him. Because he's an asshole and a slacker, and everyone knows he's an asshole and a slacker, and they treat him accordingly.
>>46082629
Ensign Sue is ridiculously cute & the comic actually explores the concept of Mary Sue. Sadly, most Mary Sues don't do the same.
>>46083122
>I just described Batman.
Yes, and?
Batman has become a terrible Sue with a layer of plot armor thicker than all the battleships of the Pacific fleet. The only thing that keeps him from being called out as a Sue is his status as an official character, and one almost as old as the genre of comics itself.
>>46083420
Ensign Sue was handed a Red Shirt & participated on a mission with Spock, Kirk, etc.
>>46082629
Because Mary Sues never wanna ERP with me.
>>46082629
Because they are poorly written.
>>46083122
>Batman as Mary Sue
Well yeah, that's what eventually happens when a character becomes a cash cow. Look at Sherlock Holmes, Doctor Who, Superman or any number of popular characters.
>>46082701
What's with the painting of Robert Downey Jr.?
>>46083462
Mary sue is a cute, ILR she's a balding 35 year old man
Rolled 844 (1d10000)
>>46083503
>We settle this shit Highlander style.
the winner gets to die, same as The highlander as well.
stepping out on 2 dangerous limbs.
1. I disagree that Honour Harrington is a Sue.
She's lost enough friends, family members and limbs to be one.
The characters eventually treat her like one
but they tend to look at her victories rather than any of her losses. Also Weber was kind of stuck keeping her alive.
2. Corwin of Amber. for several reasons (not including his blinding). The main one being he was the person telling the story so either lied outright or glossed over his failures.
(Although I've never seen the Amberites really as described as Sues. Although "What happens when a Family of Mary Sues decides to kill each other" could make great t.v.
>>46082629
Summoning MetaQuest OP
>>46082629
Damn that comic was fun but then
>docwho shows up
>takes charge, everybody obeys him unquestionably
>already has a solution to the plot he brought with him
>the solution involves infinite supply of what is usually an extremely rare object
How in the FUCK do you make a comic about laughing at a mary sue and then don't see that you've turned a character into an utterly unironic sue?
>>46087779
it's acceptable for events to focus around primary characters in a medium is the reason.
>>46084533
>Doctor Who
I dunno, if you've been keeping up with the series, the Doctor seems to have almost as many bad days as he has good ones.
Also, having super-science and a time machine kinda helps his case.
>>46087922
The more you look at the Doctor the more of a broken fuck up of a creatures seems.
>>46082629
Because "mary sue" describes something that is inherently bad.
You might as well ask why people hate boring stories, it's because boring is an inherently bad thing for a story to be.
>>46087922
The thing is, according to some other episodes, and his own hype (oncoming storm shit), those bad days should've been solved with a snap of his almighty fingers.
Instead he stands still and watches people essentially murdered and their carcasses turned into cybermen.
But when some OTHER guys piss him off, it's trapped in the mirror and bound with neutron star chains.
>>46084639
There's a whole series of them. They're amazing.
http://replaceface.tumblr.com/tagged/celebs
>>46088307
There's a significant rationale there that, for the first two series, the Doctor is suffering from REALLY serious PTSD fromwiping out both the Daleks and the Time Lords. The loss of Rose is what shook him out of his fucked up, broken down funk and forced him into action. Post-Doomsday Doctor is frequently a vicious, callous man of action who will burn you and all of your children if he thinks he has to.
>>46082791
Explain Twilight then
I don't know how the fuck Myer made a Sue as a Main Character in an original work, but she did it somehow.
>>46087922
The Doctor is, at the very least, a super special snowflake. You can argue where Mary Sue ends and special snowflake begins, but to me it doesn't really matter. Now personally, I'm okay with a significant level of either in a protagonist, but at a certain point it does get ridiculous. New Who has gone far past that point.
Honestly, I liked it at first when people in the show acknowledged what a badass the Doctor was, rather than sort of disregarding his past achievements the way they tended to do in classic Who. But they just kept cranking it farther up and focusing more and more on how special and important the Doctor is until I was ready to scream. I really miss the science fiction show (with elements of science fantasy) that Doctor Who was, where the settings and plots seemed to have importance outside of just setting up a clever plot twist or serving as a backdrop for an exploration of relationship drama between the Doctor and his companion (or an exploration of the Doctor's psyche). Now it's basically all just magic and the plot has no integrity. I've had to walk away from the show for the time being. I'll probably pick it back up and give it another chance once Moffat's gone.
>>46088596
Readers self-insert as Bella and enjoy being desired by mr. perfect and pretty Edward.
>>46083317
I don't read Superhero comics for this reason, though. Shit's boring when they're just good at everything for no reason, when there's always an easy bad guy (even if they try to bury the situation in angst) and when everything always comes back to the status quo
>>46082629
We don't, really. They're really just kind of dull and uninspired. I mean, there's OPM who is a classic sue. But he fucking fails at everything he actually wants to do and his life is a cavalcade of sweet, sweet misery.
The people who make/play them however?
>>46088706
>once Moffat's gone.
I know so many people who say this - including myself.
>>46088834
Moffat has a lot of good qualities as a writer, and has come up with some of the best episodes of New Who, but I really don't like the direction he's taken Doctor Who in as show runner. I'm a big fan of Doctor Who, classic and new, and it took some doing to get me to walk away from the show.
>>46088706
>>46088834
>>46088897
Did doc break "12 lives" rule?
>>46089115
Yeah.
>>46088897
Also seriously this. Moffat is a good writer sometimes, but a terrible producer. I pretty much stopped halfway through his second series.
>>46089115
Yeah, but the Time Lords used magic so everything's okay. But the show has so little integrity, it doesn't even bother explaining when dead people show up alive anymore, so it doesn't even really matter. It's become a magic show with some sci-fi trappings rather than a sci-fi show with some science fantasy elements.
>>46089150
I thought 5th season--his first--was, overall, really good. 6th season had some good points, but the big plot arc was rubbish, and the transition to a magic show troubled me from the beginning (though I couldn't quite put my finger on it at the time). I made it three episodes into Capaldi's second season (halfway through the second two-parter, in fact) before I had to walk away. But it was only my devotion to the show that kept me hanging in there. I had hoped that the transition to Capaldi would fix the show's problem, and to be fair, it fixed some of them, but it made others worse.
>>46088739
So twilight is a fan fiction of real life?
>>46088596
Self-Insert Sues are nothing new, see the entire battle harem genre or 90% of Light Novel adaptions. They make it really, really obvious.
>>46088803
I'd say OPM lacks the key component to a Sue: warping the universe and story around them. The series still has other characters with their own goals and motivations, even if they're as ridicoulus as everything else in that show.
And the main character is flawed. His absurd power stopps him from being able to care about anything. He dreams about exciting fights, but he can't find any because he kills everything in one punch.
It's just that this is played for comedy rather than drama.
>>46089400
You don't actually know what fan fiction is, do you?
>>46089537
I know this is the internet, and you can't read tones or expressions, but come the fuck on
>>46083324
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The handsome, genius, multi millionaire, black-belt-in-everything, polymath, super detective, engineer, who can do all that AND live two lives *isn't* a massive Mary Sue because 'he has a hard time fighting demigods sometimes'
> In most cases he either had them beat beforehand
ie: having superhuman foresight, access to ALL of some of the rarest information on the earth and the resources and ability to make use of that information jesus christ
>>46082629
I'm honetly confused why someone had to Strawman a Mary Sue for that comic.
The problem with /tg/ is that it has no idea what "mary sue" means any more.
People like any background beyond "poor dirt farmer seeking treasure", "orphan who turned to theft", "grizzled war veteran", and "autistic wizard apprentice" are mary sues.
I just want you all to know about a Korean drama on Netflix titled "A Man Called God".
It's pretty much the most Mary Sue show ever written.
>>46083324
>Knows all martial arts, from the present, past and future
>Knows all sciences
>Knows magic, but doesn't want to use it for some reason
>Faster than Flash
>Able to defeat, using only martial arts, two full powered kryptonians who laughed at two nukes and gatlings seconds before
>Able to survive being punched by an agry god through several reinforced concrete walls
>etc
>Not mary sue
When your "human" dude is able to beat Gods you know you went full Mary Sue
>>46083324
>>46090406
Fucking omega beams dodge.
>>46090297
Smells like the korean version of City Hunter, which was also Mary Sue as fuck
>>46087751
I forgot about the Editors setting
>>46090406
He beat the Hulk once with one kick in the stomach.
>>46087922
Not really. Mary Sues have plenty of bad days. They think it's hard to be them. And their absurd levels of competence can come from gadgets just as easily as anything else.
>>46088307
And for an absurdly powerful space alien who can do almost anything and has dedicated himself to protecting Earth, he focuses on protecting a very small, comfortable range of times and places on Earth. He really prefers to stay in post-colonial England and ignore both the shittier parts of the planet and all the unfortunate history that was necessary for him to be able to enjoy tea and toast with a variety of expendable Englishwomen. And don't tell me he's afraid to alter the natural course of human history, because he's shown that he'll happily kill, fuck, or completely alter the careers of whatever human historical figures he fancies. At least it's kind of implied that Superman tries to help everyone as best he can without overturning the political status quo.
>>46082629
Because we all made our own and feel ashamed for it, then turned to hate the idea with passion that denies reason.
>>46090600
>And don't tell me he's afraid to alter the natural course of human history, because he's shown that he'll happily kill, fuck, or completely alter the careers of whatever human historical figures he fancies.
Doctor Who, and new Who in particular, is inconsistent enough that you really can't judge the entirety of it by shit that happens in occasional episodes. I'm not saying that this isn't a weakness of the show, merely that if you want characterize the Doctor, you should probably not go for the most extreme examples but rather the typical, middle of the road stuff. Or maybe not even really bother given the show's increasing lack of integrity.
>>46083999
Also the work itself doesn't take Dante seriously.
>>46082629
Because fuck you, OP, that's why
>>46087730
>What happens when a Family of Mary Sues decides to kill each other
Heh, The Amberites if interacting with a normal human are totally and without question May Sue's... but they don't only interact with those weaker than them... no matter the power level you're working with, if the character has adversaries of a similar or higher level, then they could be a sex goddess capable of destroying worlds with a flick of the wrist, but Gorgolon the Destroyer is tougher than your average world and has a bad habit of punching out deities.
>>46090218
It's a parody.
>>46090218
For humor Anon, it was for humor.
>>46090430
>tfw you still can't take Anti-Monitor fearing Darkseid seriously
Sadly, some of Darkseid's avatars have a pretty shitty track record.
>>46087730
>>46091305
Amberites are the betters of normal people but I've Literally Never (TM) heard anyone argue that they or Corwin are Sues, its not unusual for normies to threaten them.
>>46090406
Most of that stuff is from Batman fans writing things in order to justify him being one of the main DC heroes and part of the Justice League. Power creep in modern comics is out of control.
>>46087730
Honor Harrington is total Mary Sue.
Losing friends and family or gaining new cool cybereye can't be really count as character flaws. Her perfection in everything from diplomacy and strategy to fencing and killing people with her bare hands is kinda annoying. She has typical Mary Sue ""flaws"" like being clumsy. Only people who don't admire her are despicable bad guys or eventually change their opinion. Cool pet is another typical red flag. Nearly all other characters who at least sometimes lose battles are way more interesting than Honor.
>>46090406
All of that is within the internal logical consistency of the story, Batman can do it because the comic is called Batman and the plot demands that he must do it.
If it breaks your immersion with the story world then it is a poorly written story, or you are not the right reader, I think in this case it's the stories fault.
But that doesn't make Batman a mary sue because the comics are about Batman being in the Batman world, and in the Batman world Batman can do whatever the plot needs him to.
Someone writing a fanfiction set in the Batman world in which their OC does half of what Batman does it a mary sue, because it's not the OC's world, it's Batman's.
Someone creating an OC for an RPG that can reach these levels of bullshit is a mary sue, because the story isn't about them, they are characters in the story.
If someone writes a fucking shit novel about their super speshul snowflake that can break the laws of physics then that character isn't a mary sue because they are in their own story in their own world, it's just shit writing.
>>46093432
Pic related should have shot that bitch in the face. I somehow got to the tenth book before I fucking gave up, as the ratio of Honor being a mary sue vs Tourville, Theisman and Foraker being actually interesting got worse.
I don't give a fuck about bitchface's personal drama or psychic pet, I want more Lester-fucking-Tourville kicking ass to the tune of Ride of the Valkyries.
>>46094912
Tourville, Theisman and Foraker are easily the best characters. Balancing between being shot by super advanced Manticorian tech or by their own superiors makes them actually intriguing.
And Tourville really should win BoM.
>>46083068
>>46083141
I usually hear Mary Sues described as either having no flaws or no flaws that matter. For example, they're "too [good thing]" or some shit that just gives them an excuse to be even more insufferable.
When I hear the term anti-Sue I tend to think along the lines of >>46082942
>>46095242
>implying a british author will ever let their not-french villains with a naval battle
They can't even admit they lost at Chesapeake ffs
>>46083324
Like within the last year, in Batman's comic, he beat the entire JL by himself when they surprise attacked him in his manor.
The problem with that article is Batman IS an insufferable Mary Sue and is only good in his own book where he's retarded plot armor is often reigned in and leaves him struggling against street level psychopaths rather than humbling alien gods.
>>46083122
>richer than anyone on the planet
>Every guy she meets falls in love wither her
>defeats superhumans with ease
>unshakably loyal friends and allies
>They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders
>just described Batman
Yeah, Batman would be Mary Sue... if these things were true. That and he isn't an authors shitty self-insert into an established franchise for their own personal self-wank.
>>46089115
Where did that rule come from, anyway? I don't remember hearing about it until it suddenly became relevant, so I figured it was pulled out of Moffat's ass to be a minor reoccurring problem for a season or so (IDK if it was, that was around where I stopped watching).
>>46095480
Well he shouldn't have spend the previous ten book making the space-French infinitely more interesting and likeable than the space-British.
>>46095643
>Where did that rule come from, anyway?
Classic Who. I think it was first stated in The Deadly Assassin, though it's 12 *regenerations* and thus 13 lives.
>>46088596
Bella's not a sue, I mean she is certainly supposed to be but because myer can't write for shit she comes across as a manipulative bitch
>>46089457
I'd say that warping the story around them is the more important Sue trait. Or rather, the trait is how the narrative treats them. Saitama is usually a joke, unless he's a sad empty husk. That's why he's not a sue.
To put it simply, if OPM were a sue, the entire show would still be about him effortlessly beating monsters, but with no humour or existential ennui, played completely straight as a hero fights monsters bit.
Plenty of characters are crazy powerful, but as long as there's some kind of struggle it works fine. OPM is just a bit unusual in that the struggle is an existential one.
>>46088596
Bella is literally a pair of paints, not a sue.
Aren't Mary Sues an exclusive concept of fan fiction?
>>46083420
I read a story about this once. It threw a bunch of Mary Sue archetypes into a pre-existing series and examined how they fared with all their sorts of broken abilities and common character traits, but without author fiat protecting them. They all died. Ended up running afoul of their character traits and fucking themselves.
The author likened them to tropical fish in that they couldn't survive long outside of an environment cultivated specifically for them.
>>46097861
Take two of these and get back to me on that.
>>46097975
I want to read this now:
The one I remember was a fan comic where a massed number of Sues inserted themselves into Harry Potter, and they all got promptly sorted into the "sparklepoo" house, where they quickly realized that Sues could not live with OTHER Sues, because all of them needed to be the most intensely special of special snowflakes. It ended with a bloody slaughter as sues tore into other sues, and the sole survivor got to be the love interest of Bishonen Snape and Malfoy and Harry all at once.
>>46098090
I believe it was called 'Perfection is overrated'. It probably requires knowledge of Mai Hime, since that's where it's set, and why the first sue's death is particularly hilarious.Hime lose the person they love most if they get beaten. The first sue is the archetype that absolutely everyone loves her to bits for no reason, so she bites it the first time a character loses. It's great.
>>46097199
Bella is not a Sue. She's a shell for the reader to get into.
She *IS* the plot armour.
>>46097975
It always gets to me when people say that mary sues have no flaws, because they do. Irrationality, stubbornness, a lack of empathy or willingness to consider others viewpoints, vindictiveness, the willingness to use violence casually, these are all common and glaring flaws.
The difference for a mary sue is that the narrative does not acknowledge these as flaws, if it deigns to acknowledge them at all. You're example is perfect. Placed in a world where the narrative is not on their side these extreme, dysfunctional personalities are a bad thing.
A mary sue is an imperfect character that the narrative treats as perfect. That is what makes them grating.
>>46098381
>It always gets to me when people say that mary sues have no flaws, because they do. Irrationality, stubbornness, a lack of empathy or willingness to consider others viewpoints, vindictiveness, the willingness to use violence casually, these are all common and glaring flaws.
>The difference for a mary sue is that the narrative does not acknowledge these as flaws, if it deigns to acknowledge them at all.
>A mary sue is an imperfect character that the narrative treats as perfect. That is what makes them grating.
Yes! That's it! That's exactly it! This is what I keep failing to try and explain about what makes a Sue.
>>46082708
With a cleaved what?
>>46097861
Yes, and don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise.
>>46095480
b-but Weber is American and restored republic is space USAwell, Solarian League is space USA but anyway
>>46083420
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1518794/1/The-Game-of-the-Gods
Morgoth and Varda are playing a little game. Morgoth's weapon: Mary Sues. Varda's weapon: Reality. Rated for violence and Vala OOCness.
Rated: Fiction T - English - Parody/Adventure - Chapters: 35 - Words: 73,692 - Reviews: 785 - Favs: 816 - Follows: 80 - Updated: Nov 25, 2003 - Published: Sep 13, 2003 - Status: Complete - id: 1518794
>>46083420
Name as many Sues that became popular as you can (characters that became sues only after they were popular don't count).
Now name as many popular non-sue characters as you can.
See the difference: the sue's inherent flaw is that have nothing that makes them appealing other than self-insertion potential.
>>46097996
To be fair, they're Sues in a school full to the brim with Sues. Damn near everyone in that setting is a Sue. It would almost be satire if they didn't tryhard the twins so hard.
>>46097861
So a long time ago when people read Star Trek magazines and fanfiction.neet hadn't been invented yet, sometimes fan-written fictions would be published in these magazines. When they were particularly bad, there was often a pattern among the worst.
One young woman took every bad story she saw published in these magazines and wrote a satirical entry of her own, with the main character named 'Mary Sue'. Apparently the editors found the story refreshing and hilarious, I assume due to it having been published. After the birth of Mary Sue as a label, it quickly spread about to various media where many consumers didn't understand the root nor meaning of the concept.
So while the Mary Sue was a deliberate parody born of how wretchedly fucking terrible fanfiction is, the exact meaning is often muddied though still useful outside fanfiction itself.
Goddammit, I know this is not my blog but I just have to rant for a moment.I have a co-worker that writes fanfiction. They are fucking terrible. She tells me about her ideas all the time, one time she conned me into reading a Dresden Files x MLP crossover where she shipped Harry and Bob. She's only seen the TV show. I still kind of want to stab her for it. The worst part about it is she actually had a good narrative voice but it was being wasted on this thematically incoherent and ultimately pointless tour of wishing to gouge out my own eyes.
Okay, sorry.
>>46099008
Tell her to change the setting and all the character names and see if she can get it published.
That's how 50 Shades of Grey happened, anon. She could be rolling in money.
>>46099006
Oookay, how about this one then? She's possibly the closest thing I've seen to a fanfiction insert Sue in an actual published work.
>>46099150
Nobody talking about Anna Todd and her novel Another?
Hint: it's One Direction fanfiction in origin.
>>46099307
After, not Another
>>46099263
Is she from IS S2? Haven't seen it yet. But since she's in IS, that at least launches her firmly into special snowflake status.
>>46083141
They're clumsy because it's the look-at-me so kawaii moe desu uguu thing to do, nothing but more attention whoring.
>>46099338
>Haven't seen it yet.
Count yourself lucky and don't.
Being special and being a Sue are by no means the same thing. Regardless, she totally is one.
>Ostensibly more attractive than everyone else
>Better than everyone at everything (except sewing, maybe)
>Outfought a supersoldier in CQC
>Everyone likes her
>Everyone finds they can't get mad at her, even for shit they'd kill anyone else for
>Fucks with everyone for own amusement constantly
>Openly flaunts rules
>Chastises/punishes others for breaking said rules
>Head of secret organization
>Knows behind the scenes stuff, chooses to remain mysterious and vague
>Sister has complex about not measuring up to her
>Actively interferes in sister's life to ensure all her accomplishments are actually her own
>Thinks this is a good thing
>Sister just learns to nut up and accept this (also treated as a good thing)
>At least one scene per chapter where the narration sings her praises
>Smug as fuck
>Real name is "Katana" (no, really)
>Proper IS rep (not candidate) for Russia
>No connection to Russia at all, was so sought after that she basically got to pick which country she represented
>Implied that she could switch countries anytime she felt like it because they'd just be that glad to have her
>renamed her IS from Russian to Engrish
>IS uses NANOMACHINES SON
>IS has other character's special abilities
>>46099329
>>46099307
There's a nightmare story in here I want to hear about.
What is this. .. 'After'
>>46099527
See, it's shit like this that made me want a Gundam to show up and wreck everything in that universe.
>>46099606
To each their own. It made me want to tell the author to do it again, properly this time, since it seemed to clearly within his capabilities.
Fortunately, a much better producer is picking up the slack for him.
>>46099694
Mainly I was wanting a Gundam to show up so everyone would know how a proper mech kicks ass. Now I just want the Gundam to stomp the Sue.
>>46099873
It wouldn't really be necessary. She gets worfed all the fucking time, but for some reason repetitive fatal injuries never seem to do much to her.
>>46098341
Bella definitely isn't a Mary Sue, but she's an author self-insert.
And in a story about everyone inexplicably falling in love with you, that's the equivalent of taking off your panties and jilling yourself in a public place; enjoyable to some, but frowned upon for a reason.
>>46100095
Better yet, Sue versus Sue.
>>46082629
I get off on having fantasies about degrading and violating mary sues and waifus.
>>46100257
So you read The Rape of Sapphy, had a good wank and decided to make it a thing?
>>46100244
Kind of feels like no matter who wins, everyone loses.
Nobody knows what Mary Sue means anymore.
It isn't a Sue if it isn't an author insert power fantasy.
No self insert, no Sue.
>>46083420
>Is there any way to defeat a Mary Sue?
>Some sort of intrinsic flaw behind having no flaws?
Point out how little they've actually accomplished despite their enormous amounts of skill and talent.
This will cause them to go into an existential crisis and mentally shut down.
...It always works on me.
>>46099606
>See, it's shit like this that made me want a Gundam to show up and wreck everything in that universe.
>>46099873
>Mainly I was wanting a Gundam to show up so everyone would know how a proper mech kicks ass. Now I just want the Gundam to stomp the Sue.
NO ANON, NOT A GUNDAM!!!
>>46082629
Because they're weak characters and just generally uninteresting. They don't make for good stories.
>>46100361
Kinda like Alien vs Predator but with even more badly written characters.
>>46100436
Yes, a Gundam.
>>46099150
I tried. She prefers being stuck in a world of unpaid mediocrity. Apparently. Not that escaping mediocrity is a possibility, but she could at least be better paid than where we are now.
Honestly the best approach would be to convince her to play in a contemporary urban fantasy campaign, make a character distinctly unlike herself, and then be the party chronicler. Her bf is an experienced roleplayer of AD&D and a bit of 3.5 so it wouldn't take much convincing, but she laughs like a banshee and I have a hard time staying at the same station for long, nevermind across a table for 4-8 hours per session.
>>46099873
Make It the black history Turn A at least: http://pastebin.com/AjGWVTn2
>>46100244
>>46100473
NOOOOOO!
>>46100510
>Black History Turn A
>Canon
Let's not turn this thread into an /m/ Gundam shitflinging fest.
>>46100559
At least post the superior Leo.
>>46098381
You know that fetish ridden Harry-Potter game of windictive teen witches?
That's the perfect game for Sues.(well edge-mistress/master egomaniacs and wanna-be sues)
>>46098381
>Irrationality, stubbornness, a lack of empathy or willingness to consider others viewpoints, vindictiveness, the willingness to use violence casually
Holy shit, most of this stuff is just the signs of autism. Real autism not meme autism. Mary Sues are literally autistic social savants.
>>46100843
>You know that fetish ridden Harry-Potter game of windictive teen witches?
Maybe?
>>46099307
>>46099575
Found about it a few days ago. Basically, the author had been writing One Direction fanfiction on Wattpad about how she got in a steamy relationship the cute one of the group.
It became so wildly read that she changed the names a bit, contacted the guy, got his approval and published the vile thing.
Now we have one more erotic teen series that is the new hot thing in the teenage girl population.
It's apparently as bad as Twilight when it comes to describing healthy relationships, human relationships and humans in general.
>>46101083
I MUST recommend this to Krimson Rogue! He'll want to set his iPad on fire!
>>46101198
Please do. I plan on reading it myself since I don't really like talking about books I haven't read. Just like I lost some of my sanity on Twilight.
>>46082701
>not the unstumpable
>>46101083
I'll have my friend read it and give me the synopsis.
I have the inability to read most things that are in any way, contrite or otherwise cliche; without going into a blood rage.
I feel bad for friends of mine who recommend me web comics...
>>46083122
I DIDN'T think of Batman, but it'd be a cool char nonetheless.
for one thing, "even her enemies are attracted to her" would make for something way more disturbing than Batman, as a lot of the male antagonists in Batman are fucking gross and weird
>>46082629
This.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/41229071/
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/41279526/
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/41355121/
This is fucking why. Just...just read and then hang your head in shame for asking that question.
>>46088596
>Twilight
Things I've heard:
A: The series was supposed to be about Fae (Not faeries like Tinkerbell, but legit old-school Fae, hence the sparkling faggot) but Myer changed it because her editors said "VAMPIRE BOOKS SELL BETTER! CHANGE IT!!"
B: Because of point A (among other things) Myer didn't fucking try to make the book good, when her other books (this is apocryphal knowledge as I've never read a single thing she's written) are apparently well-written.
Good news, this series guarantees we'll have some genetic cleansing, cause all the stupid bitches who think dating somebody who's A: Possibly murderous and B: Dead; is a good idea and those morons won't be passing along their genes.
>>46083444
Best post.
>>46104138
nah, this is bogus. She based it off a dream in which there was a vampire and a woman in a meadow, and he was trying to decide whether to kill her or not.
Twilight vampires are perceived as faggy and diverge from the new vampire canon of Anne Rice, whose vampires were also faggy. If VtM came out today it'd probably be based off Twilight.
>>46082629
>Why does /tg/ hate mary sues so much?
The criticism is valid when the character acts out of accordance with reality in a way that is false to the established universe. The phrase has been overused however and any character that is not a total fucking loser is regarded as a "Mary Sue" rather than a outstanding specimen.
Why WOULDN'T people dislike these characters?
>>46087779
>doc who shows up
> takes charge, 50% chance that everybody obeys him, 50% chance that they'll tell him to fuck off
>inspects the area and questions the beings around him to produce a theory of what is happening
>again its a 50% chance he's right or wrong
>the solution involves putting his trust in the people around him and the people around trusting him
>doesn't always get it right, doesn't always save everyone, isn't always the "good guy"
>>46105668
Which is not to say that a character wrongly accused of being a Mary Sue isn't a weak or poorly-developed character.
Pic extremely related.
>>46110958
If Rey was a guy you all would shut up. Must be sad to be a guy with low self esteem.
>>46111012
Gosh you're stupid.
>>46111012
>alterssomething in the millenium falcon on the fly with solo having no idea what she did
>never did this before even though it took no effort at all
Explain this to me.
>>46111035
I'm still trying to figure out how Han Solo lost the Millennium Falcon. You know, the only material possession he cares about and is extremely protective of? The ship he'd rather die in than lose? The ship he'd invested countless hours of maintenance in to streamline its performance as a personalized smuggling megaship?
It was a marketing contrivance. The writers just tossed in an explanation so they could slap the Millennium Falcon all over the trailer and ad campaigns.
>>46111012
Fuck off.
I went to the first Star Wars with a female lead and thought 'cool! finally a female main character. Can't wait to see what they do with this! I mean, its gotta be good. Its not exactly hacks making this movie.'
What i got was the worst, most boring, un-character in recent memory.
She has no personality traits. She has skills that don't make any sense, and she's just fucking boring.
The worst thing about Rey is that it'd have been so easy to show her abilities before hand rather than just having her pull them out of her vagina as the film went on.
She's ridiculously technical, an ace pilot, a good shot and a powerful force user.
The first three - she practically lives in the wreck of a fucking star destroyer! Star destroyers full of pilot training material!
I would have shown her spending time rebuilding a flight sim in there - showing that she's technical and longs for escape from the planet - practicing incessantly on her piloting - showing, yknow her piloting.
Then all we need is a couple of shots of her being bored as hell firing at cans with an old imperial blaster, and we have some basic justification for her shooting. (Or actually, i would have made her an awful, awful shot and used it as a character flaw and a movie joke that she can't hit the far side of a barn, while making it more clear that Finn is a fucking expert marksman).
Finally, show her using some basic fucking force powers in camp. Nothing much, just her being able to persuade that fat trader bastard into being more generous than the previous person to visit him. Even that would have lessened the impact of Rey - All Powerful Protagonist.
Maybe i should be being paid millions to write. Because this shit is EASY.
>>46111087
Rey is a Disney Princess. She hits all the notes.
>She herself is a perfect nugget of moral and spiritual purity.
>Her only character flaws come from her environment - she is only in a bad situation because the characters around her aren't as perfect as she is.
>The solution to her primary problem is a change of scenery, resulting in everything she's ever wanted being given to her.
I almost expected her to break into song halfway through the film.
>>46111087
I am still fucking floored by how she managed, with NO previous force training, to Jedi Mind-Trick a guard into doing a half dozen different things, fight off Crawling-in-my-skin-Kylo-Ben and could beat him at Lightsaber fighting, again WITH ZERO FUCKING TRAINING IN SWORD-FIGHTING MUCH LESS FUCKING LIGHTSABERS!!!!
>>46111109
Holy shit. You're basically right.
Wow. Kudos Disney. I guess its better to stick to what you know, and Disney are stuck, taped and bolted to what they know. Generic, crap characters.
>>46083420
http://www.scp-wiki.net/drclef-member-page
This man's job more or less, scroll down to the Termination Log
>>46111226
>implying Ben isn't just as untrained.
He has almost as much potential and is only trained in using his anger.
He's New Hope-tier Luke with emo issues.
>>46082629
Why does /pol/ hate jews so much?
>>46113106
Because they think it makes them cool and edgy?
Ever notice most of the good Justice League episodes had Superman missing from the action?
Having heroes overcome challenges and shortcomings is exciting.
>>46111109
Damn.
*Slow clap*
Nailed it.
>>46088596
Sues can be main characters of published works.
I'd argue that Paul Atreides is a good example of a Sue done well.
>>46082629
I hate sue's because they've made it so I can no longer create characters with heterochromia without being accused of being one.
>>46083420
In a roleplay where you're squaring off against them?
I'd say a good powerplayer can knock any sue down a peg.
>>46111109
>>46111233
The idea of Rey came from Lucas. Disney had nothing to do with the development.
>>46114607
Wanna knock a Sue down a few pegs? Roll an AM BARBARIAN. Barbarians are the OG Antimages.
>>46115122
They said they scraped all of GL's ideas, so while he may have thought of the concept they fleshed it out and gave her those traits you dunder head.
>>46114607
Power play in general is great at shutting them down. Most people who craft Sues are inexperienced on the mechanical end (and fairly inexperienced on the character end, as well) - if their character is actually powerful, it's the result of a stolen build they're not really sure how to operate, rolling for stats "at home", or trying to get away with stupid shit that they're hoping the DM won't notice.
>>46115226
They didn't scrap his ideas, everything they're doing now is based off what he was going to do. The specifics won't align 100%, but Lucas loves his cliches so I'm sure he's happy with Rey's character. She is no different than Luke or Anakin.
>>46111109
I have no clue where you're getting the moral and spiritual purity bit, but one of the most notable things about her character is that once she finally gets off her shit barge of a planet and her destiny starts to be revealed to her, literally the only thing she wants to do is say fuck off go the hell back.
She only has a change of heart once the Force decides to use her as a conduit for whatever reason.
>>46103472
What the hell are you doing in /tg/ then?
Are you just pissed off every time?
>>46082942
Equally, you can have a character with no flaws who isn't a Sue. What matters is that the character serves the story and not the other way around.
>>46090533
He knocked the breath out of the Hulk. It's not like the kick itself KO'd him. Of course, the Hulk reacting at all to a human kick is still ridiculous and Batman is still a Mary Sue
>>46087779
Seems about right. Dr.Who is the current most popular sue in media essentially because it played to David Tennant's acting style of sexy pompous guy. This, amazingly, is why he makes such a good Killgrave, who is a supervillain who's power is literal mary-sue control.
Dr.Who is so sueish that he has the power to ride on the intimidation factor of the hypothetical victory his suishness provides him to stop numerous foes who are capable of instantly and effortlessly vaporizing him from stopping the brand on the spot. He has literally fought off and entire amphatheatre of perfectly Daleks sporting instant-death guns by saying "I am the doctor"
>>46115575
Its saddening that the reboot turned a mature male guile hero into a mostly young hotblooded dues ex machina.
>>46099372
Basically, it became a stereotype because it allows a character to be all OHOHO I JUST FELL INTO MY FUTURE LOVER'S ARMS, CLUMSY ME, but whenever the character has to do anything plot-relevant, suddenly they can run across a tightrope while dodging bullets.
>>46113220
Nah, Superman was in a lot of the best ones. Justice League Superman was nerfed pretty hard.
>>46113220
As I recall, Supes in both the JL cartoons was supes at the point before he got over his mental blocks that were holding back his powers.
But yeah, he was absent from a number of the better episodes, but I wouldn't say that was for a fighting reason. The better episodes were good for the characters and not the fights.
Like my favorite episode was when Hawk Girl and Wondie had a duo mission together and went to the underworld.
>>46115405
Yeah. Look at Obi-Wan Kenobi in the original Star Wars. He's smart, street-savvy, experienced, often offers up wisdom, he has a unique crazy weapon, he has special powers that only one other character in the setting we know about has, the only time he lost was on purpose and it just made him stronger, and he generally isn't shown to have any flaws (aside from the implication that he might have had a role in Vader's fall).
But nobody remembers him as a Sue, because it was all in the service of a larger narrative. His job is to guide Luke, and show Luke the world that the galaxy forgot. He doesn't do everything or invalidate anything - hell, for about a third of the plot, he's nowhere near the other main characters. All his abilities make sense and are explained as much as they need to be. His relationships with other characters make sense - Luke is amazed by him and views him as his only remaining link to home, Han thinks he's an old coot but follows him because he's got some money on him, and so on. Because of that, though Ben is pretty perfect, he's never irritatingly perfect, and his death is genuinely sad. That the later films confirmed some actual flaws for him (trying to disassociate himself from Anakin's fall, lying to Luke) is just the icing on the cake.
Like, imagine if Obi-Wan was the main character of the original movie. He'd be insufferable.
>>46116548
There's a ton of great episodes that feature Superman. The "bad future" episodes, pretty much anything featuring Darkseid or Luthor, For The Man Who Has Everything, and so on.
>>46115276
>They didn't scrap his ideas, everything they're doing now is based off what he was going to do.
“They looked at the stories, and they said, ‘We want to make something for the fans’….They decided they didn’t want to use those stories, they decided they were going to do their own thing. They weren’t that keen to have me involved anyway — but if I get in there, I’m just going to cause trouble, because they’re not going to do what I want them to do. And I don’t have the control to do that anymore, and all I would do is muck everything up. And so I said, ‘Okay, I will go my way, and I’ll let them go their way.'”
“They wanted to do a retro movie. I don’t like that. Every movie I work very hard to make them completely different, with different planets, with different spaceships, make it new.”
- Lucas
>>46112776
He's able to hand whatshisface the pilot his ass in the beginning, they clearly set him up to be a big scary bad guy.
Granted, he had just been shot in the final fight, but even with that he was probably only slightly better than Finn in a lightsaber fight and got his ass handed to him by Rey.
Honestly I'd describe it as being like them changing their minds about how competent they wanted him to be and then forgetting to re-shoot the scenes they'd already done.
>>46105668
I'd say in published works, the best way to expand the definition is to claim that it's a character where the author has written the story to be less about making a good story and more about showing off how great this one character is.
Like, look at Sonichu. Christian Weston Chandler never had any interest in telling a good story. He just wanted to show off how amazing his comic counterpart is, to work off his frustrations with not having a girlfriend or superpowers. It's why (among a multitude of other reasons) Sonichu's story is such complete nonsense, because it's not written to go from Point A to Point B; it's written with the goal of "show off how great my fictional counterpart is" first and everything else second.
That's not to say that character-focused stories are Mary Sue stories. But when you have a character-focused story, you need to have a character where the character is a story, where the character grows and develops and shows layers. Mary Sues typically stay static for most (if not all) of the story, and their only "growth" is usually adding to their collection of superpowers or harem.
And this is why /tg/ hates the archetype so much, because when used in tabletop contexts, it usually means either a PC or an NPC who is created to fit the criteria. And if reading about someone who warps a story and setting to show off how awesome they are sounds boring and unfun, imagine trying to collaborate with them.
>>46116792
I'm not saying that there weren't good eps featuring supes. I'm just saying that my favorite ep of all didn't feature him. Also that the good episodes weren't exactly about the fighting anyways.
>>46115329
>I have no clue where you're getting the moral and spiritual purity bit
She had what must have been the most misplaced Save the Cat moments I've ever seen.
Her motivation is a desire to leave Jakku. The much-excused "source" of her incredible skills was deemed to be her junk dealing career. She was a scavenger on a violent desert planet, so I guess that means she's a great fighter and great at repairing machines or whatnot.
She comes across what must be the most valuable droid on the entire fucking planet and, for absolutely no reason whatsoever, decides to keep it because she's just that good of a person. Of course we come to find out this was yet another of the needless contrivances necessary to move the plot along.
>>46087730
Corwin, not so much, he does lean towards it with his immortal knows famous people from history dashing charming main character accidentally winds up as god bit. At the same time he spends the first five books not really knowing what the fuck is going on, he is shit scared of Benedict, and a lot of the people he meets want to kill him. If Corwin walked into the plots and instantly deduced everything and started a wholockian long game to unravel it, then he'd probably cross the line. As it is he just bounces around like a brick in a tumble dryer, smashing into the various plots and plotters to considerable cost to himself.
>>46117895
She didn't want to leave Jakku, though, at least until whoever left her there in the first place comes back. Though she secretly knows they won't.
I mean, her arc is still Campbellian, but it's all about the refusal of the call.
>>46114607
>>46115174
>>46115273
If you can "knock it down a peg" it's not a Mary Sue.
>>46118860
>Her arc is Campbellian
Not really. Her arc emulates a refusal of the call but there is no real call since there is no real mentor character.
And you highlight the biggest weakness of this film - conflicting character motivations. The first time we see Rey she's sitting in the hollowed-out guts of an AT-AT watching some ship fly off into the atmosphere while she wears a pilot's helmet.
Saying she "doesn't want to leave the planet" is contradictory to this very clear and powerful imagery. Her refusal of the call scene happens with Orange Yoda, which is clearly a token effort. She doesn't really want to go back, otherwise she wouldn't have jumped at the chance to be Han Solo's co-pilot. The writers of the film wanted her to be three or four different characters - a warrior, a fresh-faced youngster, a dramatic hero, the inheritor of a legacy - but they deprived her of any real character because they kept pulling her in multiple directions without offering justification for any of it.
The rule isn't "A character has to passively refuse the transition to a new world," it's "A character has to JUSTIFY their refusal to the transition to a new world." Luke's refusal came when he gave a true justification for not wanting to accompany Obi-Wan - he's a creepy space hermit and Luke doesn't want to abandon his family. These are logical justifications.
Rey not only lacks any logical justification to stay on Jakku, she possesses the means to, you know, actually begin the search for her parents in earnest. Her personality clashes with her own story and the result is an awful, awful, awful film.
>>46118983
Of course not - in a story written by one person. Collaborative works, like RPG campaigns or online roleplays, are not controlled by the Sue (unless the Suethor is the GM). This means that the only thing their creators can do is attempt to make them become Sues... and this means they can be shut down.
>>46082660
Seemed to work on you.
>>46082791
If you take a look a certain containment board you'll see how wrong you are.. But hey, thats why they got, y'know.. contained
>>46119077
The shot of her looking at the ship flying off is a misdirection. Our first impulse on seeing it is to connect it to the famous shot of Luke looking at the twin suns, or to at least assume that she wants to get the hell off that rock. However, the movie later reveals that what she *actually* sees is whoever the hell stranded her there flying off, never to return.
And a character is allowed to have conflicting and irrational motivations, braw. Something within her is inhibiting her from actually embarking on her journey, to stay in the routine her hardscrabble existence in spite of her fascination with the greater world, and she tries to rationalize it by saying that she's waiting for someone [that will never return].
>>46119564
>The shot of her looking at the ship flying off is a misdirection.
And so it doesn't belong in a space adventure film dealing with Campbellian archetypes. Not to draw too much from "those" reviews, but you're not making The Usual Suspects here.
And please. You're reaching. There's no justification for staying on Jakku. She hates it there are jumps at the chance to leave it. You can't give us scene after scene showing her increasing competence in everything building to an exodus and a burning desire to leave her home being completely justified, and then backtrack over the first half of the film by saying "No, really, she wants to stay." I don't buy it, and if you're being honest with yourself, you didn't buy it.
>>46119077
>her to be three or four different characters - a warrior, a fresh-faced youngster, a dramatic hero, the inheritor of a legacy
It seems that much of Poe's (and some of Finn's) development was hi-jacked to increase Rey's girl power credit. I suspect several scenes were altered and Poe's return was pushed back to later in the movie in order to enhance Rey's abilities.
Poe was likely originally intended to reappear during the Falcon launch sequence. The TR-8R fight scene was supposed to be against Rey armed with the lightsaber and foreshadow the fact that Finn had close combat training that would allow him to beat the injured Ren in the final lightsaber duel.
>>46083524
Dante is only as good as the player. Videogames stop being fun when they don't allow you to fail.
>>46119869
Poe was originally intended to be straight-up dead. It's pretty clear that Finn was supposed to be a red herring from the beginning.
I won't deny, there is some evidence of reshooting. Someone pointed out a while back that, until his scene with Han, every time someone says that Kylo is Han's son, either their back is turned, they're CGI, or their face is obscured - meaning that it's quite possible that it was intended to be a plot twist, but they dubbed over some more dialogue or reanimated Snoke a bit.
>>46119806
As a person that irrationally self-sabotages constantly, and is 'stuck' in the Upper Midwest, I bought it just fine.
I'm not saying the character spoke to me on some profound level, I just got what they were going for with her.
I will say that she maybe has one too many skills in her toolkit. At least she's shitty with guns?
>>46120147
Even then, she went from "your safety is on" to "bullseye a guy from ten paces with a pistol."
>>46120535
And she muzzle-sweeps Han!
Though if you want to talk about trick shots, the X-Wings getting one-shot, one-kill center-of mass-hits on stormtroopers from a couple of miles out sort of distracted me from Rey's new-found proficiency with firearms. Honestly, it was the part of the film that bothered me the most.
>>46120042
I don't think it involved reshootings but rewriting at the draft stage.
I don't doubt that Poe was originally intended to die, but suspect that he was going to be Ren's victim if Harrison Ford was not available. They likely had multiple treatments done based off of which members of the original cast they could get back.
>>46120711
Yeah, it's kind of obvious how Poe becomes almost completely disconnected from the other main characters immediately after returning. When I was talking about reshooting, I specifically meant the Kylo Ren stuff.
>>46120147
Understanding intention and accurately pointing out how that intention failed in every way possible aren't mutually exclusive. From every storytelling standpoint you choose to stare at this spectacle, Rey's character is inconsistent and contrived.
>>46121424
And I hold an entirely different opinion. We appear to have reached an impasse.
>>46121790
Not really. It's ok to admit Rey was a poorly conceived, horribly executed character. You namedrop Campbell but you must not be familiar with the cycle he describes.
>>46083122
The only people who don't call Batman a Mary Sue are Batman fans and people who don't read comics at all.
Mary Sues aren't bad because they're power fantasy and/or wish fulfillment. They're bad because they're power fantasy and/or wish fulfillment to the point of seeming masturbatory on the part of the author. It's all about whether a character's roughly in line with other characters of the story or just clearly outclasses everybody.
Luke Skywalker isn't a Mary Sue because he keeps constantly fucking up and getting his shit pushed in all the way through ANH and ESB. The only notable talent he has is that he's a good pilot, and then because he's been practicing in his Skyhopper for years. Even that doesn't save him from getting grazed a few times at Yavin and shot down on Hoth. He's only powerful in Return of the Jedi, by which point he's had 4 years of off-and-on Jedi training, and even then he only barely defeats Vader and is strictly inferior to the Emperor.
On the other end of the scale, we have Rey, who always saves herself and everyone else unless it is literally impossible for anyone to do so, and whips out powerful Jedi techniques despite no prior training whatsoever, eventually defeating an older and much more experienced foe while wielding an unfamiliar weapon -- a foe who, despite his injuries, had just soundly defeated another opponent moments before who had slightly more experience than Rey did.
See why some people are calling bullshit? Luke actually fits the setting, while Rey feels like a high school self-insert fanfic character who's seen all the movies already, especially given that she seems to already know all the important figures of the Galactic Civil War and is merely surprised to discover they are real.
>>46089285
You left Capaldi's second season just before it got really good. Pretty much the worst possible timing.
>>46112776
Ben received enough training with Luke to go rogue and kill all of Luke's other students, then go gallivanting around the galaxy in the service of Mr. Evil Lincoln Memorial shoving his lightsaber down the throat of unsuspecting pensioners and electronics equipment, doing flashy never-before-seen Force tricks like freezing a blaster bolt the whole time.
Kylo Ren's training is incomplete the same way Luke's training was incomplete just prior to the Battle of Endor. Rey's training is incomplete the same way Anakin's training was incomplete just prior to the Boonta Eve Podrace. Rey and Ren should not be anywhere close to being on the same level.
>>46111087
That "rebuilding a flight sim" thing actually happens in that "Before the Awakening" book, I think. They didn't put it in the movie, presumably because they needed that valuable time to do Death Star 3: Snake Eater instead of something that actually followed naturally from the first half of the movie.
>>46115276
Lucas didn't like TFA and said long before it came out that Disney threw his ideas away.
It IS true that Lucas wanted to have a young female would-be Jedi at the center of the new trilogy, but that just means he had the basic concept. The rest is not him.
He hired Michael Arndt to write the screenplay originally, and they struggled a lot because the story would chug along just fine right up until Luke entered the story, at which point he would overshadow everyone. They were still reworking it when Lucas went "fuck it" and just sold it all to Disney because he knew people would just yell and bitch right up until the movie came out because his name was attached to it.
A lot of the early stuff, up until the movie leaves Jakku, is thought to be derived from Lucas's original treatment. Everything after is Abrams and Kasdan.
>>46111226
When you fucks will get that she is lukes daughter and already got training but cant remember because future plot point?
>>46120749
JJ originally approached Denis Lawson about coming back to play Wedge.
Lawson wanted a bigger role than JJ was willing to give him, so he cut Wedge entirely.
My personal theory? Everything Poe does after coming back from the dead was originally supposed to be Wedge.
It makes sense if you think about it, because after Poe's apparent death scene, his presence in the rest of the movie is basically a formality. He leads the fighter squadron, but it's nothing like the space battle in ANH, because the fighters' attack on Starkiller Base really isn't the focus of the battle of Starkiller Base. We're too busy dealing with the strike team on the ground most of the time.
>>46122443
If that's true then the story group are even bigger hacks than I thought they were.
>>46122443
>got training
>must have been like fucking 5 years old when she got dropped on Jakku
Yeah, she sure get a lot of training as a fucking 5 year old
>>46121880
Frankly, you're more impassioned about the character and movie than I am. I was mostly protesting someone trying to crowbar her into whatever their definition of a Disney Princess is, based on some wild misreadings of her stated motivations (regardless of how you feel about the consistency and presentation of those motivations).
>>46104138
>Myer didn't fucking try to make the book good, when her other books (this is apocryphal knowledge as I've never read a single thing she's written) are apparently well-written.
I read only "The host", it was a fun book, she could have done much more with the setting if she so wished, but gay vampires sell better than aylmaos.
>>46111086
The Millennium Falcon changing hands is a big part of the ship's history which I am glad they brought it back. Lando won it from someone in a game of cards, Han won it from Lando, and it would make sense for Han to lose it as well.
>>46122554
You know jedis are supossed to be trained young...I mean anakin was 9 I see what happened
>>46122941
Anakin actually received more than 2~ years of training.
Do you think Rey was mind controlling people at 2 years old?
She at the most got a year of very basic training before she was dropped on the island.
>>46122554
>>46122941
>>46123068
Hey, R2-MarySue's presumably never received any Jedi training at all, and he's the Force's will made manifest.
>>46082629
They make for very boring storytelling. The plots boil down to "Something Bad Happens and Mary Sue fixes it"
>>46122938
Winning something in a game of high stakes cards is not the same as "losing."
Han never said he lost the ship in a sparring match or out of a bad deal. He said he lost it. Like he lost his keys or something.
>>46122585
I'm more impassioned about Campbell and the study of storytelling. Again, it's ok to admit she's a terrible character.
>>46124155
Naw she's alright.
>>46124963
No she isn't. But it's ok.
>>46124993
Eh she's fine. Seen better, seen worse.
>>46125134
She's like the only character right now in modern movies to be a total mary-sue.
>>46125933
She was pretty competent at a lot of stuff, yeah. And I can see how the Force choosing her as its agent might rub some people the wrong way.
>>46126184
Which really kills any tension in a story.
>>46126254
There was adversity and hardship before the inevitable triumphs. They were predictable beats, but she at least didn't immediately obviate every challenge she went up against.
>>46118983
Mary Sues are always defined by having a writer or roleplayer behind them who don't know how to do things right. A good writer and roleplayer can tear apart a Mary Sue by breaking them down fundamentally.
Ignoring the rules that are broken, punishing the mistakes made.
As a Play By Post roleplayer and only part time Tabletop player, I encounter the problem all the time. All you need is a strong character who's wit and constitution are good enough to outlast anything they do.
>>46124155
>He said he lost it. Like he lost his keys or something.
I didn't get that from that line. I assumed it had been stolen, or he'd lost it in a card game (on a "sure thing" of course) and the other guy had flown off with it before he could hop in and flee the system.
>>46127208
>I didn't get that from that line.
He said he spent time looking for it, as though he misplaced it. He even mentions to Chewie they should have checked Jakku more than once. Replace "Millennium Falcon" with "Preparation H" and you've got a slice of life comedy scene. He lost it.
If it had been stolen, it wouldn't be sitting in the middle of a desert rusting to pieces. Same if he'd lost it in a card game. The way it appears in the film and the way Han talks about it all point to "Old Man Losing Something He Cares About."
Which, come to think of it, probably folds back in to the terribly hamfisted imagery at work in this film in general.
>>46126611
>she at least didn't immediately obviate every challenge she went up against.
Beset by thugs -- beat the shit out of them immediately
Chased by TIEs -- she can fly the Falcon at least as well as Han Solo
Finn loses turret control -- she can aim the whole damn ship for him
Something goes wrong in the engine room -- she instantly knows what it is and rushes to it, telling Finn what parts to hand her
Boarded by pirates -- she's got an idea how to get rid of them
Finn gets grabbed by a rathtar -- she saves him with a door
Falcon has trouble in hyperspace -- she's fixed it before Han even knows what's wrong
Never used a gun before -- popping stormtroopers once she's got the safety off
Interrogated -- reverses the mind probe with no prior training
Detained -- mind tricks her way out with no prior training
Sneaking through the base -- never gets caught or even seen once by any troopers
Han and Chewie need to get into the oscillator -- she knows exactly what to sabotage to open the door and gets it right on the first try
Kylo Ren beats Finn and is about to come for her -- Force pulls the lightsaber despite no prior training and defeats him handily without so much as a scratch to show for it
To the extent that Rey faces adversity and hardships, they are almost entirely token, almost as though they were written just so the writer could point to them and say SEE SHE'S NOT A MARY SUE BECAUSE BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO HER SOMETIMES. The few that matter for more than a handful of seconds are all on Jakku, and even then all of them are pure circumstance -- she is the ultimate innocent victim.
>>46127448
>Finn loses turret control -- she can aim the whole damn ship for him
I haven't actually watched the movie yet, but that's a thing that ties in with being able to fly well. It's not really a separate category from being able to fly the Falcon as well as Han.
>>46127448
So, what you're saying is, she faced adversity and hardship that she inevitably triumphed over, but didn't immediately obviate every challenge she went up against.
>>46127513
Yeah, but in the movie it's ridiculous enough that it merits special mention.
>>46127536
She didn't immediately obviate EVERY challenge, but she obviated quite a few, and the ones where she did face adversity and hardship they feel half-assed, like they're there just so the writer can say they're there and deflect criticism, which makes it feel like they shouldn't really count.
So yes, in the narrowest sense, you are correct, but it's an empty victory.
>>46127536
She got through most of it and obviate half the shit that goes on.
>>46127313
Various criminals had all stolen it from each other, so it could be that he had to track down a long line of criminals and they all told him his gigantic metal princess was in another shitty-ass castle.
I'm not saying it was done well, I'm just saying I didn't see anything that implied he'd misplaced it and spent, what, 10 years? looking for it without it moving around a bit.
>>46127313
"Who had it? Ducain?"
"Unkar Plutt. He stole it from the Irving Boys who stole it from Ducain --"
"-- who stole it from me! Well you can tell everybody that Han Solo just stole back the Millennium Falcon!"
It was stolen. It was stolen and then re-stolen and then re-stolen.
>>46127448
Not the guy you were talking to, but
>Beset by thugs
I would assume that someone living in a shithole like that would have to learn how to fight pretty quickly. It is a little suspicious that she was able to handle 2 guys, but I can live with attributing that to a combination of plot armor and latent force potential.
>Chased by TIEs
Yeah, kinda shitty writing there
>Finn loses turret control
That was luck and they both admitted it.
>Something goes wrong in the engine room
Shitty writing, though since she seems to make her living looking for valuable components of spaceships I could see her being relatively quick about that. Not as quick as she was, but still.
>Boarded by pirates
To be fair, that's a solid idea and one that a lot of people would have come up with (at least people around here, IDK about in general).
>Finn gets grabbed by a rathtar
Kinda shitty writing
>Falcon has trouble in hyperspace
Also shitty writing
>Never used a gun before
I could see her force talents helping her somewhat there, but I'd expect a few more missed shots if that were it. Shitty-ish writing.
>Interrogated
I think they wanted to show Ren being too big for his britches and her being tougher than she looks, but they fucked up. Shitty writing.
>Detained
That's some very shitty writing.
>Sneaking through the base
With force powers and protagonist plot armor I can live with this.
>Han and Chewie need to get into the oscillator
I don't remember this scene well enough to comment, but it's probably shitty writing.
>Kylo Ren beats Finn and is about to come for her
Force pull is a pretty basic power, and that bit was done more to show the difference between Ren weakening because of his injury (or mental anguish, I feel like it was supposed to be both but they really only showed the injury), but then winning that easily afterwards was still kind of stupid.
>>46094912
>>46093432
Can you delve more into Honorverse? I was thinking about getting into the series but haven't heard a lot of good things.
I think Mary Sues are more a problem of non-interactive fiction. Is it really bad if a player wants to make a character that is interesting, pending of course, that the character fits within the point budget and lines up with the stats and competencies allowed? Are games being disrupted by players being incredibly awesome a common occurrence? Isn't that like a GM problem if it is happening?
>>46129812
DMPC's tend to be Sue-ish if the DM is bad. If the DM's spouse/partner/whatever plays they might be the Sue instead with the DM's help. Otherwise it's the DM's fault if they don't try to shutdown spot-light hogs and fun-hoarding snowflake powergamers.
It does happen in games and it's usually cringey shit that makes the group want to quit.
>>46129162
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/full-slow-ahead-ralson-reads-honor-harrington-a-rising-thunder.9340/
Let this warn you against ever fucking looking sideways at the pile of shit that is the Honorverse.
>>46113648
That's because it's virtually impossible to write a messianic character and not have them be a sue.
>>46127513
The Falcon is a special case since Han is one of the few pilots that knows how to fly it well, it indeed warrants its own bullshit category.
>>46122805
>gay vampires sell better than aylmaos.
I thought we already came to the conclusion, that Vampires always were gay in media.
>>46082665
am I the only one that read that as "eat your cock flesh"?
