![liberi_00_master1[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/oGV6vNp.jpg "liberi_00_master1[1].jpg")
So apparently Fiore Dei Liberi describes the proper technique for throwing swords and for blocking thrown swords. What other ridiculous fantasy bullshit has actually been real all this time?
>>46026501
You made a mistake in translation.
Lanzar is translated literally as "throwing" but it's the stab, not the actual throwing.
>>46026501
Hundt described throwing your rapier into an angry crowd.
Gérard Thibault has a spinning rapier play.
Fiore had also a poisonous poleaxe thing.
Many treatises showed how to defend yourself with a hat when facing a sword (not that fantasy when facing thrust-centric swords though).
Pretty much all the Bolognese two sideswords styles, though they were admittedly for show and prowess.
![u0XrOgE[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/3rutofJ.jpg "u0XrOgE[1].jpg")
>>46026501
>"If you want to end him rightly, hold your sword and spear together, unscrew the pommel, and throw it at him vigorously."
>>46026501
>What other ridiculous fantasy bullshit has actually been real all this time?
Mordhau
>>46028889
Is that actually ridiculous? Using the crossguard and pommel to strike always made sense to me. Half sword grips aren't quite as intuitive, but it's a small jump from there to reversing the sword.
>>46026501
>other ridiculous fantasy bullshit has actually been real all this time?
Clerics.
>>46026501
Viggiani can show you how to fight and dueling less than an hour (and being Fabulous at doing so) ! Only two techniques needed, no really !
>>46028809
I saw Skallagrim's video about this and I still don't get what the fuck this is about. You throw the pommel at him? So you go through the time-consuming effort of unscrewing your pommel, throw it at him and... then what? It can't be much more than a moderate inconvenience, and at best you'll stun him with how stupid what you just did was.
Seriously, why would a by all means solid fight manual recommend this?
>>46029027
When you put on full harness half swording suddenly feels very intuitive. You don't fear the blades as much so you end up far closer together in single combat.
>>46029732
A 1lb hunk of metal hitting you in the head at speed isn't a light thing, anon.
>>46029760
So the pommel is almost half the weight of the sword... it seems a little bit too much.
Besides, in the treatise, they are shown in armor so nope, it ain't gonna do much.
>>46029732
Maybe... maybe, it isn't as serious as it seems. After all, Fiore have a "let's hide some poison in a small hole of that poleaxe" part.
>>46029795
>it seems a little bit too much.
It's supposed to be heavy, in order to balance the sword properly.
>>46029760
>>46029795
>So the pommel is almost half the weight of the sword... it seems a little bit too much.
Well, the pommel exists as a counterblade to balance the sword. It's possible that it's really that heavy.
>After all, Fiore have a "let's hide some poison in a small hole of that poleaxe" part.
That actually sounds like a valid, albeit it dirty, trick.
>>46029760
>1lb
The entire sword only weighs 2-3 pounds.
There is no way a pommel is that heavy, hell most are hollow unless they are small.
>that feel when you release a handbook of your fighting style full of deliberately false and retard information to ensure anyone who tries to replicate it dies trying
Laughingknights.jpg
>>46029814
>>46029823
Oh then it's a pretty great idea to take the piece that balance the weapon and to turn it into an badly effective throwing thing. To me I've always looked at this part of the gladiatoria as a small nonsensical play but well...
>>46029846
Well it's always better than Fiore or Lichtenauer "sword and buckler" then...
>>46026501
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTC_1HRgbuo
Related
>>46028809
How about you just carry a lead weight instead. Maybe out it on a stick so you control where it goes better.
>>46030016
>on a stick
Good idea but I think we should make it out of steel instead for better robustness.
I think this metal weight on a stick idea has some mileage behind it.
>>46030016
Just make sure it isn't wooden... mace with a wooden stick isn't a great idea.
>>46028809
E N D H I M R I G H T L Y
>>46029732
turns out that you can shitpost on paper, too
or parchment or whatever the fuck they used
>>46029732
Copyright protection? You put one technique in your fight manual that seems plausible, but then tell your paying customers "See this one on plate 42? Totally fake, don't do it". Anyone who isn't a customer and copies your treatise assumes 42 is true and possibly gets his dumb ass killed.
>>46029107
Good one, anon
>>46029732
>Seriously, why would a by all means solid fight manual recommend this?
The combat is part of a judicial duel. They require that the accuser begin by "casting" at the other person. this was normally done by throwing the spear (see Thalhoffer, for example.). Now, obviously, if you thow way your spear, you're losing a good weapon.
so, unscrewing a pommel gives you an object to throw, and thus,fulfil the requirement of the law to cast an object, while holding your spear, which can serve as an advantageous pole-arm to beat the shit out of your opponent in armour.
that's one possible reason for it.
>>46030064
I would have preferred "has some heft behind it", but I'll give you good points.
>>46030208
This is in that /tg/ valley between just plausible enough to be obvious bullshit and just inane enough to be reality.
>>46028809
i think this a a case of "trolls have existed through all ages
>>46026501
Don't fighting manuals have fake techniques in them that would be ignored in actual lessons?
Ancient DRM to take the piss out of book pirates?
>>46030208
>>46030321
Actually that's one of the best and most reasonable explanation of the gladiatoria plate...
>>46026501
Some kenjutsu schools had "Princess Bride"-like techniques when you switch your hands positions while preparing to swing in order to defeat a typical wrist-counter cut. Iaijutsu techniques were the drawing is done with the left hand also exist for the same purpose.
>>46030500
Now I wonder if, even back then there were assholes telling people who annoyed them to mix Ammonia with Bleach.
>>46030208
Wouldn't you get spitted by the other guy's spear in that case?
>>46030727
thalhofer's fechtbuch has a number of plates outlining the method by which to set aside a thrown spear, to deflect it away.
>>46030788
I'm not convinced one could perform that maneuver properly whilst holding a spear in the crook of his elbow and furiously unscrewing his pommel.
![21513909_1_m[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/87lp1VK.jpg "21513909_1_m[1].jpg")
>>46030657
I wonder what the "delete system34" of the middle ages was.
>Deny the Trinity, bruh! Trust me, it makes your theological thesis much smoother!
>>46030727
>>46030788
Besides, if we agree on >>46030208 hypothesis, it's a pre-emptive throw, to initiate the duel, so it's not like you are in a hurry or risk to get rushed. The two fighters throw, then the actual close fighting happens, so it lets you plenty effort to dodge or deflect the spear, especially since they don't travel that fast and besides, you are suppose to have armor on.
Getting killed or critically injured by a spear throw while wearing armor and having swords and bucklers to help you should be pretty rare.
>>46030844
So you go into the ring, both fighters are unwilling to throw away their spears so they both unscrew and throw their pommels, and then the referees are appeased and they're allowed to close in and fight with spears?
>>46030832
socrates once had to argue with some young asshats, who reasoned that if skinning is for skinners and cooking is for cooks, being skinned and being cooked must also be for them.
>>46030901
Yeah, why not...? It's a duel, crazy rules and all. You had duels where a man with one arm tied to his back was fighting a dog, another one were a man in a pit fought a woman with a flail (soap in a sock rather), duels fought with large shields and full plate armor. Clearly, having a preliminary throw before the duel isn't crazy at all. The pommel throw to keep the spear is a bit unusual but well, judiciary duels were unusual for starters.
>>46030979
So, what happens when you're busy unscrewing your pommel and then the other guy defies all convention by actually throwing his spear away? Is there an accepted technique for transitioning from unscrewing your pommel into blocking an incoming spear?
>>46030815
talhofer does not have the pommel-unscrew. that is part of the Gladiatoria Ms group.
what I was saying is that the spear-cast is an integral part of the very ritualised procedure of German judicial duels.
(you arrived in full armour, your coffin was placed on a stand beside you, the two combatants would be seated facing each other waiting the duel, they would enter the field, etc. there they were expected to make a statement, and then the duel would begin with both casting a weapon upon the other.
Gladiatoria, as per this pic, slightly earlier, its not exactly clear if the spear must be cast or not before the duel, or as part of the opening, or what.
as a bladesmith, I've studied this for a long time. my personal suspicion is that these are two-part pommels cast in bronze - probably an inner section with a screw on it, that's peined in place, and a larger outer pommel, that can be unscrewed. that would ensure your weapon remains intact when the pommel is removed. If it were such a weapon then the screw would be hand-cut, not a machine-cut screw, and probably quite coarse. put a taper on the core, and it would be possible for the pommel to be unscrewed with just 2, maybe even just one revolution of the pommel. Two quick turns of the wrist would be enough to detach it. I do not think it would be slow or inconvenient at all.
>>46030979
Man we need to bring that shit back. American Gladiators was a good start but I want to see some wacky bloodsport shit on TV. I wanna see a dude with prosthetic legs fight a dude with prosthetic arms. I wanna see a guy fight a pack of dogs with a ballpeen hammer. I wanna see a guy fight a car. Fuck football, fuck soccer, fuck all these poor imitations of battle we invented. I wanna see two things thrown in a pit and one thing to leave.
>>46031005
>So, what happens when you're busy unscrewing your pommel and then the other guy defies all convention by actually throwing his spear away?
But he can't ! it's (would be) in the rules of the duel, both throw their weapons one after the other, then they go for a close fight. It's a duel, they both accept the rules, their is no reason for them not to play by them. So no, you aren't "busy" unscrewing the pommel since the judges will let you have the time you want and need. There is no "defiying" the conventions, that would be an instant disqualification.
>>46030939
What the actual fuck. I know the structure of a socratic dialogue, and that Socrates often kept pushing people on their beliefs until they started contradicting themselves, but how the fuck do you end up with the conclusion that cooks are to be cooked and skinners to be skinned?
![bullfight-3[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/6Hp1TqF.jpg "bullfight-3[1].jpg")
>>46031012
Southern Europe has bullfighting, but animal rights organizations are cracking down on it because it's "cruel". The only cruel thing is that we're limiting it to bulls. I want to see a guy on horseback jousting a fucking bear.
>>46026501
How foes it feel that half of the written history is made by innbreds and retards?
Im pretty sure most of it is fake looking at how much bullshit is written today.
>>46031037
Oh, so your opponent just has to stand there until you've thrown something at him, then he gets to throw something at you, then you close and fight?
I figured you meant there was a throwing phase during which both combatants must throw in no particular order. If there is an order, how is it selected? Coin flip?
>>46031062
I want to see a bear on horseback jousting a dude on a moped with a hatchet.
>>46031081
Yep, particular order makes the most sense, probably with the offended starting, or it's agreed beforehand, as the rest. It's very dubious that it would be random... random stuff are devil's stuff (only partially kidding unfortunately).
>>46031081
I vaguely recall that it might be the accuser who casts first.
remember this is all about a judicial duel. you have been accused of something - murder, rape, theft, etc. you are of a high enough class to defend yourself from the claim, and its a duel to the death. whoever's right is protected by god.
yes, its fucked up. welcome to the medieval age.
(though I see at least one idiot in here's never left that age).
the whole thing is made up for ritual and procedure. its not just a fight in a ring. there's elaborate rules in there.
>>46031100
It almost looks like a MtG's card text (or the like), which is even made funnier by the fact that a card game based on Fiore dei Liberi exists, thanks to based Guy Windsor.
>>46031046
Teenagers will always be pricks that think they're much smarter than they really are. This is a universal constant.
>>46031147
So Socrates was in good company.
>>46028549
>>46031174
>>46028549
>>46031182
>>46028549
And don't forget Fabris' anti-spear guard that he conveniently doesn't explain how to use.
>>46031182
>>46031174
THICK
>>46031195
Hat series
>>46031211
>>46031218
One last hat.
>>46031218
Fucking OddJob
>>46031227
And last but not least, dodging gunfire, a bit more artistic, but you never know.
>>46031195
I don't give a shit how unrealistic it is, this is my SFW RP fetish.
>>46031196
I've seen reenactment stuff sort of like this, where the guy with the sword kneels down and drives the tip of his sword into the ground and wiggles the other end around to deflect polearm strikes. Then he latches onto the haft with his other hand and uses it to launch himself up and at the wielder of the polearm.
>>46031253
Just chop the guns with your sword, you scrub, quit dancing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lO-pYgvjQQ
>>46031259
Here is Camillo Agrippa's take on double swords. A bit too fancy but not as idiotic as it seems.
>>46031332
u-unf
>>46031332
And when you don't even need to look at the opponent.
>>46031332
>>46031378
What part of "Stab two niggas at once! Stab one nigga twice!" did ancient peoples not understand?
>>46031259
I've done a little bit of two weapon fighting with a hema group. well, hema and reenactment and larp and etc. They kind of branch out to everything to keep interest but the instructors really know their shit on the martial arts side.
Long story short, there are a few techniques for fighting with two long weapons, and depending on your skill and strength they can be effective. The one I had the best aptitude was florentine because I'm tall and have get fucked range, which essentially involves weaving your swords in a pattern so that at any given moment one sword is going to be close and in the way while the other is swinging in, threatening from the another angle. It's really hard to manage the patterns because if you don't switch consistently and fluidly then it's dead easy to get both sword's batted to the side and killed, but if you can wrap your head around it, it's quite effective.
Against un or lightly armored foes of course. I'm not going to say it would ever see play on the battlefield, but I'm willing to vouch for it's effectiveness in a more civilian setting, it especially shines when defending against multiple people. And I didn't even have the chance to really learn it for a long time and I was able to fight at least on par with people using other styles that had spent a year or two more than me. Personal aptitude aside, double weapon isn't quite as "never ever ever happened muh japanese steel cut through tank" meme tier as people treat it.
![Gladius-and-Shield-vs-Krabi[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/j14tAd1.jpg "Gladius-and-Shield-vs-Krabi[1].jpg")
>>46031012
>>46030979
>>46031062
>>46031099
There have been some attempts at bringing back full contact sports combat, but in general it's expensive and fiddly, and a very niche field. This means fewer atheletes and smaller audiences.
The last serious attempt I saw was pic related, the UWM (United Weapon Masters) in 'STRAYA, CUNT, using carbon fiber suits. That was 2 years ago and I haven't heard anything since, though.
>>46031429
I don't want full contact sport. I want BLOODsport. And we're never going to get it because we're a modern society that has evolved past such barbarism, and for good reason.
![twin-tomohawk-raised-cover-2-1500x1000[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/j8gvIb0.jpg "twin-tomohawk-raised-cover-2-1500x1000[1].jpg")
>>46031429
Supposedly, these suits, called the Lorica, were deliberately over-designed for safety, and below the Carbon Fiber plates was an electrical system designed to record strikes and award points based on contact.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/unified-weapons-master-future-fighting/
>>46031005
Then the other guy probably loses the case and gets his head chopped off. Remember that Trial by Combat was a ritualized part of the legal proceedings in which parity of arms was considered a requirement to ensure that only god would make the right one win.
Outright "cheating" would prolly much be considered an admission of guilt there.
>>46031397
STOP APPROPRIATING EUROPEAN CULTURE, NIGGER
>>46031182
>I cast sword
Mages go home.
>>46031012
This show seems oddly relevant to half the comments i read here.
http://youtu.be/KpvAR5KqkBQ
>>46031460
This is as close as you're going to get
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBhvUgxfUjk
>>46031536
I dunno, the rednecks hitting eachother with sticks and chains that is Dog Brothers at least manage to draw blood regularly
>>46031464
Shit, I gotta say that does look pretty promising. I feel like the suit needs to be just a little lighter to both let the fighters really actually move freely, and also because even if it's for protection, it should still hurt like a bitch to get full on smacked with a weapon, otherwise we're just going to end up with another version of sport fencing, or olympic wresting, which is the most boring pathetic dogshit imitation of combat that has ever existed. If there's no danger of even pain in those things, then it'll devolve into a purely points based game which will just end in boring as fuck matches.
>>46031516
They (and I) stole the man vs car thing from a science fiction short story. I don't remember the name of it, or even the collection it was in, but it was exactly that, a short story about a guy fighting a car or "iron stallion" or whatever they called it with a spear in a stadium. Shit was rad.
>>46029880
>sword and buckler
What was wrong with their sword and buckler stuff?
>>46030532
nah, they mostly have images that looks good, gives you the general idea and a few sentences like "with this technique I open a whole can of whoopass on that dumbfuck who tried to pwn me" but tells you fuckall on the actual way on how to make that happen.
It's like showing a few good pics about a brand new char, sure you can get the general idea about it's specs but you will have no clue what's under the hood.
>>46031464
>deliberately over-designed for safety
Much of them may be. But they left the fingers out in the open. Your tiny, sensitive, multiple-jointed, fragile fingers.
That's going to be a lot of ER visits if those suits ever see much use.
>>46031005
I suspect there wasn't any rule about you having to start with throwing something. If there was, and you wanted to keep your spear, you'd probably just throw your entire sword straight up.
Instead the spear is thrown first partially because it's the best throwing weapon, and partially because it's too long to be very handy at the halfword-wrestling distance that an armoured duel is most likely going to be decided at. So you toss the spear (that the rules dictate that you have) to give a modicum of cover as you close the distance, as that's the most use you're likely to get out of it anyway.
The pommel unscrewing, well, given that the overwhelming majority of pommels at the time would have been riveted (IIRC this technique may be the only evidence we have for screw-on pommels form that period), it's obviously somethign of a niche thing at best. It may be something there simply to draw attention by its outlandishness (since the manuals could be advertisement for the master). Or possibly even a joke?
>>46031196
tee hee you can see his penis
>>46030064
Oh what if we put little wings on it to focus the force?
This could really make an impact.
>>46031100
Giant dad? Is that you?
>>46026501
Dual wielding is surprisingly all over the place, here's another one nobody's posted yet.
>>46031865
How cunning and false are you?
>>46031730
THEY DIDN'T HAD ANY !!!
Worst, Lichtenauer (I may - may - mix him up with another famous german master) started a piece about sword and buckler and we lost all the folios after the small introduction (which ended with "the most important part is - end of the folio").
>>46029884
>In Battle
>Crossbowman gives me a funny look
>He's loading, no time to charge
>Throw sword at the guy's face
>He's staggered for a second
>Run in
>Punch him in the face
Jesus christ how manly
>>46034233
Reminds me of Giganti. Claimed to write a second book, lost for centuries and only recently found.
How does the second book end? "I'm also going to write a third book..."
Fuck off Giganti.
>>46031429
They're doing their first event later this month. I think it's crowdfunding supporters only however.
>>46034233
>>46034580
Trolling before trolling was a art.
>>46034233
>Lichtenauer (I may - may - mix him up with another famous german master)
It's someone else.
>>46035059
Trolling was always an art.
>>46029107
>>46031062
I have nothing against consenting adults fighting to the death for prizes, but animals can't consent, so it is "cruel". That poor horse might have been seriously injured or killed, and that bull's death was unnecessarily slow and painful.
Goddamn I love being an American. We don't tolerate that Eurobarbarism bullshit.
>>46031218
ZA WURUDO
>>46029823
Why would you want a counterweight on your sword? For what purpose?
You need the pommel to keep your hand from slipping. And maaaaayyyyybe to have a little more punch if you try to punch someone with your sword in your hand.
>>46031323
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
>>46037182
> Why would you want a counterweight on your sword? For what purpose?
For better point control, generally, plus some other things.
>>46037586
Point control sure is nice if you have a sword you stab with, like a rapier or an Épée, but how does that help you with pic related? You won't thrust often enough that it's worth it, and how does a heavy pommel (It would be quite heavy to truly counterweigh the blade [let's say you want to counter the weight of a 2 pound blade - the pommel would have a diameter of 7-8cm/2,5inches, if you think of it as a perfect ball of solid iron]) help you with that? Besides from that, if you take for example the pommel in the pic, how much of a diameter is this? 2cm/1 inch, at best. That's basically no weight at all compared to the blade (Again, as a ball of solid iron with 2cm diameter, it would weigh about 33g).
>>46037925
For fucks sake, forgot the pic.
>>46037182
>You need the pommel to keep your hand from slipping.
That's what the hands are for, actually. You are supposed to hold the sword with them.
>>46037956
If that pommel is 2 cm, it would make the handle about 5 cm long. Hardly enough for a hand-and-half sword.
>>46037925
>>46037956
>assumption is that swords are square bars
Even without the pommel, the point of balance will already be well in the lower half of the blade due to the blade's distal taper. The pommel's mainly for fine-tuning, like the lead in your car's tires.
>>46036573
>Goddamn I love being an American.
Yeah, gotta love living in a country where nobody complains when chickens are cooped up in tiny cages by the millions and forcefed so they can be turned into heartclogging chicken nuggets yet everyone starts crying crocodile tears when a bull fights to the death against a predator like nature intended.
>M-Muh consent though
Bulls aren't sapient, so they are neither citizens nor moral actors. No matter how you twist or turn it, your rights (whether civic or Godgiven) do not apply to them.
>>46037925
That sword is tapered for thrusting as well as cutting, so I don't see why being better at thrusting would be (pardon the pun) pointless.
To be more general, though, you're really overshooting what the purpose of a pommel is.
>(It would be quite heavy to truly counterweigh the blade [let's say you want to counter the weight of a 2 pound blade - the pommel would have a diameter of 7-8cm/2,5inches, if you think of it as a perfect ball of solid iron])
You don't want the center of balance of a sword to be inside the hilt. That causes you to lose leverage.
>That's basically no weight at all compared to the blade
It doesn't have to be in order to achieve the desired effect. On a sword of that design, typically the effect of the pommel is to move the fore and aft points of rotation (corresponding to movement by one or the other of the user's hands) to somewhere around the point and the center. This is why pulling with your rear hand provides power when you cut: it rotates the point of the sword about its center. It is also why you can easily maintain the position of the sword's point as you change the position of the hilt in space: it rotates the sword about its point.
If you were to remove the pommel, these points of rotation would also move. You'd experience less success both with keeping your point on line for thrusting and also with utilizing the necessary leverage for cutting.
If you want to learn more about that kind of thing Peter Johnsson has some good writings out about them.
>>46038948
>crocodile tears
You realise that people who dislike bullfighting are entirely sincere right?
And I do hope you realise objecting to bullfighting while being willing to eat meat is entirely consistent.
>>46031512
UNDERRATED
this is not spam fwacsgvydgj i came out of r9k for this?
>>46037956
>>46037925
>and how does a heavy pommel (It would be quite heavy to truly counterweigh the blade
You really chose the wrong picture for that.....
that sword has a hollow pommel.
(how do I know? because I've held it in my hands. )
>>46026501
>spend the money that you've won during 6 months to buy a decent sword
>throw it
>>46028809
>Protip: Stab him until he dies
>>46039925
Tools are made to be used, anon. "Well fuck, I died but at least my sword is still undamaged to pass on to my killer's children" isn't really a strong motivator.
>>46031165
>Teenager detected
>>46034199
Rrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!
>>46040085
>Socrates detected
>>46040203
MODS MODS MODS
>>46039612
>You realise that people who dislike bullfighting are entirely sincere right?
I also realize that they are not Jain-style vegans. Their entire cause is in 99/100 cases hypocritical.
>>46037925
Okay, so from my understanding of swords the purpose of a pommel is very simple:
it fucking depends on the type of sword and what you want the pommel to do.
The shape of the pommel on a two-handed sword will mean you hold it differently. A pommel that is pear-shaped will make it comfortable to hold the pommel in your palm as you use it. If the pommel is round that is less comfortable and you'll grip it more above the pommel, at the end of the grip.
A one handed sword with a long blade can have its point of balance shifted backwards by a heavy pommel. And you will find swords with hollow pommels because the owner wanted a big pommel but it didn't have to be heavy.
There's probably a thousand more things about the pommel that I don't know, but there's too many swords to just generalize about things.
After all what purpose does the pommel of a schiavona looking like a cat's head serve?
>>46040539
>After all what purpose does the pommel of a schiavona looking like a cat's head serve?
To make doge-senpai notice you, of course.
>>46039925
>six months
In the late middle ages basic swords were so cheap a soldier could afford several a week easily.
>>46040364
>Jain style vegan
So you are either a nutjob who refuses to eat garlic and thinks stepping on a fly by accident is a mortal sin or you are a hypocrite.
What a fantastically binary world view you have. Meanwhile in the real world there is zero moral conflict between eating meat and thinking bullfighting is unnecessary and cruel.
>>46031565
>Dog Brothers
Looked up that, looks cool. Probably as closest to real combat because being hit actually hurts.
>>46040710
>So you are either a nutjob who refuses to eat garlic and thinks stepping on a fly by accident is a mortal sin or you are a hypocrite.
Pretty much. Either the fact that animals are neither citizens nor moral actors plays a role or it doesn't. There is no rationality behind defending cows and dogs because they're cute but refusing to defend chickens and flies.
All I ask for is consistency rather than emotivism.
>>46041430
You dumbass.
Slaughtering chickens provides meat for consumption.
Fighting bulls provides nothing.
>>46029732
As a joke.
>>46037182
Everyone look at this guy. Look at him and laugh.
>>46039925
>the money that you've won during 6 months
Are you French?
>>46040539
You expect Italians to make sense with the things they do? C'mon man.
>>46037586
Only for stabbing swords. For most longswords, swinging is more important than stabbing, and to swing well you need to have the blade unbalanced (with the weight concentrated near the tip) for the most powerful swings. It's why axes are ideal slashing weapons, in fact, because they take this simple idea of putting all the weight on the slashy end and do nothing else.
>>46026501
>Fiore Dei Liberi
I've not had a closer look at his manuals. There are some "weird" manuals out there though, like Mairs "scythe" or "sickle" manual. You have to wonder whether any of those actually were used.
>>46042082
Fiore seems to be considered more or less the definitive source for historical longsword fencing technique. This is just a sidenete for the limited case of judicial duels, and even then Fiore considers it something of a hail mary, for use if you know you're outmatched.
>>46042015
>swinging is more important than stabbing for longswords
What is plate armor?
>>46042015
Even with cut oriented swords the point of balance will generally be much more towards the hilt than the tip.
>>46042328
>Fiore
Sorry, perhaps I phrased that poorly. That is, I was not "doubting" Fiore so to speak. I am well aware of who he was. My interest in swords don't coincide with his manuals though. My personal interest is in rapier and sabre. Rather my comment was to highlight the fact that some of these "manuals", and the techniques shown in them, can be rather questionable (by using Mair as an example). I was in no way trying to make make a statement regarding Fiore and his systems.
>>46031427
pls tell more
>>46042409
What is mail, for that matter. Sweeping strikes knock away your opponent's defenses and put him off balance, but it's going to be a piercing strike from a point or crossguard that ends him
>>46042409
Why stab a plate armor if you can murderstrike?
That or disarming and then wrestling
>>46042702
Why limit yourself to one end when halfswording gives you access to both?
>>46042702
>Why stab a plate armor if you can murderstrike?
That or disarming and then wrestling
What type of situation are we talking about here? A duel or warfare?
>>46031174
Fucking rekt.
>>46031378
>Nigga i aint got time for your shit
>>46037182
The center of balance on swords is intentionally kept near the hand because that allows it to be controlled more easily. This is very important for parrying and also for the bind, when the swords contact and you have to shift them against each other to take advantage.
Rapiers, for example, were very long, but had huge weights on the end of the pommel because otherwise, it'd be impossible to actually control the point. Though the overall weight is higher as a result, the balance is better, allowing for a more handy weapon.
>>46037182
Y'all motherfuckers need Easton in your life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eXvPlHc8PQ
>>46039925
Swords were nowhere near as expensive as some grimderp retards portray them to be. At least if you're not living in the fucking dark ages. By the later parts of middle ages, swords were very much commonplace weapons that didn't cost notably more than other weapons of war.
I mean, sure, there's ways to make swords expensive, but a decent, utilitarian sword wasn't some kind of a holy object only carried by the richest kings and the best warriors around.
I mean, there are actual records of swords being sold for as low as a days' wage for a common soldier. Used swords, granted, but still perfectly usable swords.
>>46040055
That's okay as long that child doesn't throw the sword
>>46031378
It is very important not to make eye contact with your foe when both of you are naked and you don't have a penis.
>>46031746
>they left the fingers out in the open.
Nobody who has a lick of experience with swordplay would ever do this shit without proper hand protection. The fact that these things don't have finger protection demonstrates that the people who designed it have exactly no idea what they're doing.
Also they look fucking stupid. Why do they have to look like something out of Halo?
>>46043458
>Not wanting to see Spess Muhreens fencing with random historical weapons
>>46029027
Half swording is awesome because it gives you a lot of control over the enemy's sword once you get inside their guard.
Also at that range they are limited in the weapons they can't use the tip of the sword, can barely use the blade and only really use the quillons and pommel.
Mordhau works in the same way a hammer does, there is a lot of force being applied to a very small area, it might not pierce armour but it will dent the shit out of it which can immobilise your opponent or break the guy inside the armour.
>>46029843
I don't know your fruity imperial measurements but the pommel does counterbalance the blade, with help from the quillions so if the sword weighs 2kg which is about how much most longswords would weigh then the pommel is around 500-750g.
Still a waste of time that would get you killed but it would hurt.
>>46026501
>ridiculous fantasy bullshit
Never was real. Real stuff tends to be way less flashy than your fantasy shit.
>>46044362
We already established that the context of the pommel-throwing would be a judicial duel that requires each combatant to throw a weapon in sequence before closing and beginning the duel.
Parry the other guy's spear, then take as long as you need unscrewing your pommel, then throw it at him, then enjoy the extended reach of your spear to his sword.
>>46041430
I'm afraid that your viewpoint is not actually logically consistent, although it would appear to be the more logical from a cursory glance. Actually thinking about what you just said reveals the foolishness.
You make the assertion that to save all life, even that repulsive to humans, is to be rational, while focusing on creatures with appeal to humans is irrational.
We will for this argument disregard the 0.1% of humanity that has honest compassion for all living creatures (usually for religious reasons).
Animals that appeal to us do so because we are wired to be able to empathize with them. We find dogs cute because the evolution of dogs and the creation of stable permanent civilizations is inexorably linked. We find cats cute because they remove pests which eat our food and spread disease. This isn't the "why" of it, but people who are inclined to find them charming lived longer. We find other animals charming based on traits we appreciate in these animals and in humans.
We are kind to these creatures, and the creatures live long enough and are useful enough for the kindness to reward us.
Over time, the direct usefulness from kindness fades, but the warm feeling doesn't.
This is an emotional reasoning, but the source of these emotions is a logical and rational cause and effect. This outlook is wholly rational at its core.
On the opposite side, showing kindness for all creatures, including vermin and predators, leads to a greater chance of destruction, as your food stores are depleted, disease is spread, and your children or useful animals are killed off by the predators. There are some exceptions to this obviously, but taking a universal view, while it appeals to "logical consistency", is completely irrational.
It's stubbornness, really. "I'm going to be nice to everything whether or not it's a good idea." perhaps you live in an ideal world, but that illogical logic isn't going to help anybody in this one
>>46041430
>>46045346
I see this a lot, especially on /pol/, people who seemingly want to distance themselves from idiots who make only emotional decisions without considering the rational aspect. It's an obsession with logic that boggles the mind. They ignore emotional appeal and intuition, claiming that Logos all the way is the only way to be civilized, calling others "degenerate", all the while never even considering why we have those in the first place.
Making emotional decisions without taking logic into account is foolish romanticism, but to take only logic and leave all else on the table is pretending the world is forensics club at best, and to be something less than human at worst.
When you reject intuition and emotion, you start to see the world as black and white, statistics to absorb. You lose nuance, and your obsession with logic blinds to go details and flaws. By ignoring emotional basis for decision making, you have missed completely the logic behind the actions, declaring them. "beneath you", like king cool kid.
Logic is not the only thing in the world. Most people do not fall in absolutes. Hell, there are a great many logical philosophers who have shown rational proofs that you don't need to be absolute to be logically consistent, and trying to be absolute is probably going to unhinged your viewpoint.
Don't be afraid to take more info account than logic. Emotion and intuition are not useless things to be discarded in favor of King Logic.
I mean, be rational here, my friend.
>>46043246
everyone needs more Easton in their life
>>46040710
I don't know about the moral conflict, but I cleaned up fishes, squids and tatuíras, a chicken once, and always ate the fish head and crunched the chicken's bones with my teeth and sucked the marrow. Delicious.
I still think the bulls and the horses don't deserve that.
>>46040633
>>46043340
Do you have a source for that? Please? It's for worldbuilding.
>>46042082
Mair was more of an enthusiastic collector than a true master though. I put in his treatise all the stuff he found from various german sources and had a lot of interest in agrarian tools used as weapons (scyths, flails, big staves, scythes). He is a bit more of and oddjob than most more regular masters.
If you want a real master with crazy stuff, there are a lot of them still, Gerard Thibault was a maniac, Salvator Fabris is eccentric, etc.
>>46031378
>>46031397
>>46042944
>>46043421
This image seems a little bit flawded by the way. The guy on the right should be much more on the left of the his opponent that he looks to be. The technique works when you step with your rear foot on the right, perspective is a bit off in the drawing.
It's a weird incartata iirc.
>>46031012
Just something that's been running around in my mind for a bit. I can accept that for a straight fight a polearm or warhammer would be better than a sword. However, for adventuring, with unpredictable combat, wouldn't a sword, something acceptably fashionable and easily drawn, be a better general purpose weapon?
If you're expecting a fight bringing something more specialized would be better, but if you're just walking around doing day to day business it would be a pain in the ass to carry around a polearm, and if you get surprised a mace, hammer or axe would be more finicky to draw, from what I know. Daggers, canes and quarterstaves would be also good for irregular combat, for the same reasons.
Could the whole 'Heroes use Swords' deal make accidental sense?
How the heck are maces/hammers/axes stowed anyway?
>>46050500
>and if you get surprised a mace, hammer or axe would be more finicky to draw, from what I know.
All of those were hung from your belt by means of a simple hook on the weapon more often than not, so nah, not really.
>>46050500
Maces aren't harder to draw, but they are a specialized weapon that makes little sense for fighting unarmored person, while you aren't yourself wearing any sort of armor. Maces are typically shorter than swords (two to three times shorter), parries and recover are harder to do, that's why you don't use them out of armor.
If you are wearing clothes and your possible opponents too, a sword is a far more sensible take indeed. The most popular combo of weapon for common people, be it in warfare or in civilian life in the Middle-Ages up to the early-Modern era was sword and buckler, for a reason.
>>46050500
could have some truth bu it doesn't explain "heroes use swords" theme
because
hero=/=adventurer
adventurer may be a hero, but may be not as well
a hero may be adventurer, but more often he's not
>>46050500
There's a reason literally everyone from every culture carried swords into combat as sidearms. It's easily the most versatile weapon. They're just not as useful in formation fighting as a polearm or big knife (seax, gladius) and shield, and they're not as useful for a mounted charge as a lance, and they're not as useful for shitting fury on your enemies as a mace.
If you're adventuring, you'll want a staff as your primary weapon since a walking stick is useful while you're hiking and you're pretty likely to visit at least one city with a ban on carrying bladed weapons. A rapier or longsword or maybe bastard sword would make a decent sidearm.
If you find yourself taking on work as a bodyguard or caravan guard or other profession where you're likely to encounter trouble and you want to discourage it if possible, and you won't be carrying your gear for an extended period of time (ie staying in an inn or leaving it in a cart), you'll want a comically large sword. The 2H sword/bearing sword/greatsword/zweihander/claymore/whatever you call it in your setting is pretty much the ultimate weapon. It trumps every close combat weapon, including handguns. There's an art to lazily waving it around to clear a space as you walk to keep people with daggers from sneaking up on you or your charge, and the reach and leverage it affords you gives you an advantage over basically anything else, while half swording keeps it useful even in cramped spaces. The only real drawback to it is that it's difficult to fit through doors and such with four and a half feet of blade sticking out over your head, and you can't do anything requiring two hands without setting it down and making yourself vulnerable.
>>46031378
>>46050110
Silly me, it's an "inquartata", no c there. Anyway, another one in Agrippa's.
>>46051260
And an inquartata by Capo Ferro, half a century later, and with a clearer drawing somehow.
>>46044786
At this point you can throw whole sword. >>46050551
>axe
>hang from belt
>"don't mind me, hero, just chopping you leg"
Also, all this shit is heavier and harder to use for parry.
>>46050831
This so much.
>>46047929
Somewhere on schola gladiatoria there's a video about it
Gist of it is that a basic sword isn't that hard to make after the technology developed a bit, and they're pretty hard to destroy so in the later periods you have 3 generations of swords floating around. Sure the tip might have broken off and been re forged at some point so the balance is a little off or something, but it'll still stab a nigga fine.
Matt Easton's examples are from old coroner reports where they value all the dead guy's possessions, and the cheapest sword was one copper penny or something, which is the lowest value they could give. It was probably a rusty dull piece of shit, but a sword is a sword.
>>46051998
>"don't mind me, hero, just chopping you leg"
First, you don't want to keep an axe razor sharp, because it will just chip and dull without a sheath. Second, you stick the haft through a belt loop and the blade is secured.
>>46052485
>Not keeping your weapons sharp
>Not keeping your blades covered
>>46026501
"There is no such thing as one technique that trumps them all", many italian masters (Fiore, Dall'Agocchie, Viggiani and Capo Ferro at least) however, agreed on a basic technique that combined a solid defense and offense: a reverse cut starting from a low stance as a parry, followed by either a downward thrust to the chest or cut to the face.
>>46052485
>without a sheathe
>not having a sheathe for your axe
Shiggy Diggy
>>46054882
>>46055068
>Dicking around with a tied/strapped on sheathe when you're beset by footpads or brigands
This is why you use a sword: it comes out of the scabbard in one motion.
>>46055068
>>46055124
>AD 1016
>not using a frog
I seriously hope you guys don't bite shields.
>>46051998
>heavier
Lolwut
>>46055003
>Seconda Guardia
>hand is in first position
This doesn't make sense. Can someone more knowledgeable please help me out here?
>>46047929
>>46052394
Later on you get shit like the black death.
Left a lot of ownerless swords behind; you can imagine what that does to the price.
>>46061697
then after the New World is explored and gold and silver starts flowing in there is so much inflation that sometimes a half of the income of peasant families goes for only the bread, and citizens in cities aren't that much better either.
But to get some specifics here is a link and a pic
http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm
>>46030208
My old ass fencing instructor (nigga only recently died at 97) used to tell us that when he went to university, you used to throw one of your notebook to challenge other students in some way. Usually boxing or chess according to him, so this this makes an odd kind of sense.
>>46031062
>Southern Europe has bullfighting
>post a pic from Mexico
kek
>>46044362
> if the sword weighs 2kg
>2kg
lol
