Why does every single RPG rulebook seem so long winded and just difficult in terms of how it explains how the game is played. No matter how complicated or rules lite it is they spread everything out across a ton of filler text that can span hundreds of pages.
Like, what the fuck?
Is there an rpg that isn't shit at explaining how it works?
>>45566601
No, welcome to our special Hell
>>45566601
Because it is written by frustated fantasy novel writers who need a paycheck for their alcoholism.
>>45566601
There are two reasons.
The first is because RPG authors are notoriously arrogant. They bristle at criticism and will shut down forums and comment sections to hide from any issues with their product, real or perceived.
The second reason is because many RPG authors are from smaller distributors or self-publish and lack the funds to hire editors.
I'm a technical writer. People in my line of work generally work freelance or for larger companies. We are out of the price range of many small publishers and the larger ones don't see the need to entrust their product's success to someone from outside their little cliques.
>>45566601
I don't mind wordy rules if they put a summary at the back of the book.
The average person will equate thickness of a book to its worth.
You wont pay me 60 burgerbucks if I was only going to give you a piece of paper with mechanics on it between two laminated pieces of plastic.
Maybe you're just a casual.
>>45566601
RPG is one big circle-jerk. Playing tabletop with friends is actually showing everybody that your strokes are awesome and you tug your wiener in such a way that it seems x3 longer and shinier because of all that grease. Some GMs go even to such lengths that before circlejerk they spend hours trimming bush and shaving balls.
To sum up - it's all about the form. It's pointless to stand around and fap, but to form a naked, oily man-circle of strength and friendship and engage in manliest display of strength and capability with your muscle bros and raging erections? Fuck yeah, let's oil these dicks!
Form. Form and all those long-ass words are important.
>>45566768
I might pay someone to do that to an rpg system if they did a really, really good job of it.
>>45566699
How does one gets started in that field?
>>45566807
Somebody has some repressed sexual urges.
Just sayan
>tfw starting work on a pdf for my homebrew to post in /gdg/
I've been editing this shit as near as I can to conciseness. I worry I'm not explaining it to well. idk, I'm better with running games and homebrew than I am at writing and using word.
>>45566601
>mfw reading nwod for crunch
It's a pretty complex game with a shitton of random modifiers too!
>No mention yet of girls
It's such a good system, and it's so POORLY EDITED
>>45567335
why the fuck does GURPS autocorrect to GIRLS
fuck
>>45566938
Not the anon you're responding to, but two things that always help:
Google the position to see what various different companies expect regarding education and experienceand network the fuck out of it because most hiring is done unscientifically
I was doing fine with Stars Without Number until I got to the space combat rules. Maybe I'm not understanding them right, but they seem boring and convoluted.
>>45566601
Because if it wasn't, people wouldn't take it seriously.
People expect a wall of flavor and explanatory text in every RPG book, and sometime's it's actually pretty neat.
WW's Street Fighter game is campy as shit and the mechanics run the gauntlet, but I like the lore. It's pure enjoyable nonsense and high action straight out of cartoons with some parts that have suprising depth.
>>45566802
Please tell me this is for actual archers and not a game.
>>45568121
Nope, I know that formatting.
>Have you heard of our Lord and Savior GURPS?
>>45566938
Networking. Technical writers generally aren't expected to know anything about what it is they're writing. Specialized writers, those with experience in certain fields, can command higher salaries in related positions.
Really anon it boils down to three basic skills:
1.) The ability to logically organize information.
2.) The ability to network effectively and build a clientele of experienced helpers to draw on. In the business we call these "Subject Matter Experts."
3.) Do you know what a gerund is? Can you name the three primary sentence structures in the English language? Embrace the Grammar Nazi within yourself. You would be shocked to know how many CEOs there are who read and write at the lower end of high school level.
>>45566601
Try GURPS Ultralite.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ultra-lite/
Free and fits in your pocket.
Honestly, knowing I'm bad at this is one of the things holding back my wargame, but I'm developing it out of pocket and can't really afford a technical writer.
>>45568316
Check out UpWork. It's a big online freelancer community and it has plenty of starving editors looking for any kind of work.
>>45568316
Gonna be Satan here:Just make a Kickstarter to fund it.
>>45566824
Isn't there uch a thig as a one-peage RPG
>>45568361
I plan to hold off on a kickstarter until I have the models in hand, and can use the kickstarter money purely to produce models. I want the rulebook done and prototypes of the models in my hands so I can show people "This is exactly what you're getting."
It'll be a lot more likely to get funded than "Give me money so I can work on this thing you'll see in sixth months at the soonest"
>>45568427
Well, you have more honesty and sense and work ethic than 99% of the trash out there, so good luck.
>>45568520
Also a better artist holy shit check this out
>>45567335
It's pretty well edited. The challenge is that the core rulebooks are disorganized.
Subsequent books from GURPS are pretty good in terms of editing. They also moved to two columns per page, which is a gift for the eyes.
>>45566802
>>45568121
>>45568152
It's from a Pyramid article "The Deadly Spring", highly optional bow creation rules. The article opens by saying that not only is this totally optional, but the more realistic bows that come out of these formulas are less powerful than the cinematic ones already in print.
Then they go and stick all the formulas into an Excel document, so even if you use these rules you don't have to do any actual calculations.
tl;dr It's a specialist article that ordinary players aren't supposed to use.
>>45568709
>tl;dr It's a specialist article that ordinary players aren't supposed to use.
Lot of Pyramid is like that. Lots of ultra math nerds, legit PhDs shitting around. Kind of how GURPS got its start too. But nah let's keep rolling the 'lol GURPS lol 3e vehicles from 20 years ago'
I like Pyramid, but I ditched it when it went to a month to month deal. I swear that besides Munchkin, SJG just actively does not want to be online, make money, or really do anything.
>>45566699
>The second reason is because many RPG authors are from smaller distributors or self-publish and lack the funds to hire editors.
This.
I've seen pretty bad cases of arrogance in RPG writers, but it's kind of company-dependent. But pretty much every company has a shortage of editing bandwidth.
Another big reason is pay. RPG writing pays terribly for all involved. That means several things. First, writers need to get more product out the door to pay their bills. That means spending less time getting each book just right.
It means that editors can't afford to spend too much time going back and forth with authors. They can't spend money on playtesting. They can't spend money reorganizing a book that needs a major overhaul. Instead they get it good enough and out the door.
There's another reason. RPGs tend to be very complicated compared to other kinds of process documents. They're supposed to model a story-- which can take all kinds of form. There are more points of articulation, more permutations that can't be tested and streamlined. And yet they still have to be fun to read for ordinary fans.
Under conditions of high ambiguity and complexity, computer program documentation and legal documents are paralyzingly boring. And yet RPG books have to be fun. So something's got to give. Trade-offs must be made.
>>45568872
Name one other article of that level of complexity.
The only one that even comes close is the Beam weapon design rules. Which are mathematically pretty damn simple compared to this.
Pyramid's produced some very cool ideas. Think of it as a forum to prototype, playtest, and test market new game ideas. Or, better yet, a training ground on which you can convert talented fans into freelancers.
There's a reason there hasn't been a new Vehicles hardback for fourth edition. Kromm and Pulver say it'll be done when and if they can come up with something that's better than just eyeballing it. Meanwhile, we have Spaceships, which pretty much everyone agreed was fucking awesome.
>>45569026
I haven't read Pyramid, so I wouldn't know, just that a lot of diehard fans and writers for the books contribute optional material, which is that, optional. I'm saying it's disingenuous to post something from Pyramid and go "lol GURPS am i rite"
I'm agreeing with you, basically. Pyramid is fine.
>>45569064
Ahhh ok I see what you mean now. Sorry.
>>45566802
This seems quite simple, you just need to have the first idea about bows to intuitively get it.
I actually haven't seen the rules for vehicles, are they really that bad?
>>45566601
Dungeon World.
>>45570156
What
DW is a huge offender of this, taking long times to re-explain simple concepts while trying to hide its the same fucking mechanics from D&D.
>>45566802
>tfw your system will never have a Nasty Transcendental Equation table
>>45570156
The core book is outrageously long-winded, it really seemed its purpose was to justify the word count. Not mentioning there is a separate book on how to read the first book.
>>45566601
Dungeon World, eh?
>>45570955
DW's big failing is that it doesn't set off all of it's special snowflake term in an easy way.
Seriously, just fucking capitalize "Move(s)"
>>45568427
>I want the rulebook done and prototypes of the models in my hands so I can show people "This is exactly what you're getting."
Change "finished rulebook" to "nearly complete prototype rulebook", then have a technical writer rewrite it once you have funding.
>>45570277
>same fucking mechanics from D&D.
Nah it just sorta looks that way until you get it. It just takes this major 'zen moment' to actually understand what they're actually trying to tell you to do.
If you're doing it right, stuff like describing your attack becomes de-facto crunch whenever it's possible to imagine any significant consequences. D&D keeps its fluff and crunch a lot more separate.
They just do a shit job of explaining the important bits. And so does the DW guide, actually.
>>45566601
The closest I can think of is maybe Dungeon World? I haven't actually read the book, or even seen it. I just found the play books and along with my passing knowledge of Apocalypse World made it pretty easy to learn just off that. But maybe the book is as trash as half of tg says the game is.
But for the most part, I have never been impressed with a books layout and writing style. I don't think I have read a book cover to cover because there is always so much useless bullshit and padding. And then a bunch of fluff I don't need if I know the setting already.
>>45566601
Fate Accelerated is pretty okay. It suffers from Fate Core's over use of examples a little. But they packed a pretty good generic system into about 40 pages.
i think 5e is actually really well written as far as it goes
>>45571434
400 pages to say what could have been said in 40.
And then a second guide book to explain what the fuck they were talking about.
>>45571486
Hm. That's a damn shame.
>>45571507
>>45571486
Yeah I hear it makes more sense coming in from apocalypse world.
But did they actually manage to explain the intricacies of play concisely in AW? I've only ever played it once, as a player.
I do play Dungeon World, but it took me a shitload of research to actually understand it properly. It's hilarious that the Old School Primer is a better guide to playing DW than the DW rulebook or DW guide are.
>>45568392
Those are circulated for free and no sober person plays them.
Jeez I dunno.. Maybe Dungeon World?
>>45572127
It's pretty shit at explaining how it works though.
>>45566601
How often have you come across a good set of instructions for anything? Most instruction books are downright terrible, and here we're talking about something very long and involved that has to combine mechanical and story aspects. All things considered, I'm not sure that RPGs do that badly, at least comparatively speaking.
>>45566601
Because the book isn't for you. Or at least, not just you. The book needs to be sufficiently broad such that anyone can pick it up, from the complete newbie to the experienced player. New players need descriptions of how tabletop works, how the dice work, what gnomes are, some sort of default setting bolted on so the game isn't accused of being bland or aimless, and so on.
Also, writing is hard. Writing concisely while attempting to teach something is double hard. The reader can't just raise his hand and ask a question if something didn't get through. It's easier to layer things on extra thick so the mechanics will eventually stick. Personally I had a difficult time with Fate... nothing really gelled in my head at first. It was something that didn't make much sense until it ALL made sense, and as a new player I found that very frustrating.
The hardcore RPG fans are notoriously picky, too. I could probably write up a pretty decent and simple rules lite game in about two pages, and I could probably do it overnight. I mean, the purpose of a system is to define skills and the odds of succeeding on them, and that's really it. A little math to get the dice just right and some writeup about just how to arrange the skills properly, and you're done. But no one would give me money for that.
>>45568894
>Under conditions of high ambiguity and complexity, computer program documentation and legal documents are paralyzingly boring. And yet RPG books have to be fun. So something's got to give. Trade-offs must be made.
But that's not OK. If you can't do something right, you shouldn't do it in the first place.
>>45566601
Games designers are not always great at keeping things simple. Some times they're not that great at writing. Some times they either assume that everything is as crystal clear to someone reading it for the first time as it is to the guy who's been obsessing over it for the past three months. Some times they worry that they're not being clear enough and fuck things up even worse with long-winded over-explanation or poorly chosen examples.
As someone with a degree in games design (I got it for fun, I make a living doing illustration) I can tell you that the editing, structuring and formatting part is not the favourite part of the person writing the material. There are very few of us who enjoy cutting away the fat and being anal about word choice.
>>45572897
>Expecting Modern games to not be bogged down with stupid rules and bullshitI miss back when Dungeons and Dragons contradicted itself in almost every book because Gygax was a fickle shit
>>45572875
If that was the case, nothing would ever get done.
