Help me with a villain
How do I make my villain a nice, amicable guy who the party can sit down and have a drink with, while still knowing he's their adversary? Say the villain invites them for a drink, coffee, whatever, and they accept. How can I make it a complete non-combat, character development encounter where at no point aggression will occur from either side?
>>44534886
A bad guy who isn't a 'bad' guy? A rival?
Is it a Superhero game, like your pic?
>>44534886
You can't. This is PCs we're talking about. The crazy murderhobos that will not shy away from attacking king in the throne room while the royal guard is present in their full numbers.
Super lawful-evil in the strictest sense of the word. Like Walmart or Coca-Cola levels of evil, where they are absolutely reaponsible for horrible working conditions and the deaths of thousands of unions leaders and striking workers, but this is all happening half a world away and of course there's no PROOF they know anything about it.
if you've seen Snowpiercer, that last scene with Wilford is a good example. Very nice guy, amicable, relatable, but also stuffs children into train engines and let people cannibalize each other for a few months until he needed them pliable. That sort of thing.
>>44535053
Oh, also crucial is that the BBEG (if they could even be called that) absolutely outclasses the PCs in every way imaginable. Like even a suicidal last-ditch run with all their guns and great rolls ends with them bleeding out as the guy helicopters away and calls them to bemoan the horrific misunderstanding and how bad ambulance response times are in that area of the city. The PCs HAVE to understand that there is NOTHING they can do to harm him directly that won't end with them in the morgue and him somehow benefiting from it. This is very difficult, as players are retarded sometimes, but I believe in you <3
>>44534886
Assuming this is a superhero game because of your pic...
While most villains might think:
>let's destroy [CITY] Prison and break out all the criminals!
He thinks:
>let's destroy [CITY] Prison by removing the need for [CITY] Prison
He's focused on politics and reform, civic duty and societal good. And he does this for the sole purpose of removing the need for heroes and villains.
When civil and emergency services are more than up to the task of handling anything day-to-day use could put up against them, the city itself is well-prepared for any likely natural disasters with adequate design and planning in mind, and those who might have a psychological bent can easily access all the skilled care they could need before they start going cuckoo, who really needs superheroes anymore?
He's a villain because, if his plans come to fruition, he'd have made heroes obsolete, done away with them for the good of everyone else. He's the greatest threat to supers because if he ever succeeds, he won't end up killing them all off, he'd make the world antithetical to their existence.
>>44535189
>be Coil from Worm basically
>>44534886
This requires your PCs (players) to not be asshats.
One option is as >>44535053 says, have him be a big policymaker for a big company that does bad things in the name of the bottom line.
He could also be the head of a competing adventuring team that is more indirect in fucking the PCs over, or is even naive to the trouble their actions are causing.
Perhaps he's a punch clock villain, the mercenary leader of the army that's giving them trouble. He has no personal beef against them, he's just doing his job, and the dual nature of military politics enable him to treat them jovially in the officer's club while later vowing to destroy them on the battlefield.
Maybe he's invoking a cultural thing in order to have a discussion with them, because he wants to understand why they oppose him so strongly, and if they break it by attacking him they'll be thrown out of the country.
>>44535353
>Maybe he's invoking a cultural thing in order to have a discussion with them, because he wants to understand why they oppose him so strongly, and if they break it by attacking him they'll be thrown out of the country.
I like it. Long precedent for this--see The Iliad, the father of the Trojan's greatest warrior goes to see the Greek's greatest warrior to plead for his son's body and it works. It was a huge cultural thing.
>>44534886
Maybe the villain is his secret identity or the other way around? Like he's a business magnate or something, so totally can sit down to have a nice meal with them.
Even if they know the identity of the villain or the guy, to keep up appearances they can't just attack. Like Bruce Wayne going to dinner with Lex Luthor.
Even better or at least interesting potential, is if they all know each other's identities, then the villain can mess with them if they want, but everyone still has to keep things civil. Unless of course your party members are unhinged.
>>44534886
Have him as played by Tim Curry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q
>>44534886
The party are stuck fighting them. They're in an unbreakable contract/geas to fight on command. Nor can they work against their employer. Off duty however, they can perhaps meet a sympathetic friend.
>>44534886
they have conflicting interests but not conflicting personalities. make sure their interests get a break some times so that's not their only driving force.
>>44534886
Make him a Lawyer.
>>44535929
>>44534886
One word, OP. Sportsmanship.
Make a campaign where the PCs are athletes or perhaps martial artists, either on a team together or who regularly work together. The villain is a rival (or multiple rivals) in the same sport of competition. Take a leaf out of pro wrestling. Have the conflicts overblown, the trash-talking and feuds intense, but ultimately they're just guys looking to be #1 and part of that is putting on a good show.
Reinforce the idea that these antagonists oppose the PCs but aren't looking to do them ill any more than an Olympic sprinter would want to cripple a competitor's legs. In fact, introduce one who actually highly respects the PCs because he thinks that they'll BOTH improve by competing against each other. Maybe he's a weaker competitor who is learning from the PCs while wanting to someday beat them. Maybe he's a champion and more skilled than the PCs, and he appreciates them keeping him on his toes and forcing him to adapt and improve.
Then, a few sessions in, have an NPC show up who acts nice but who really hates the PCs guts and who is willing to hurt / kill them to get ahead in the sport / business the PCs are competing in. Better yet, have that new NPC screw over and defeat the well-meaning sportsmanlike NPC, possibly so badly that they're put in the hospital, maybe even so badly that they have to retire. Just make sure to set it up so the players like your antagonist before the next one screws him over.
>>44534886
You mean all folksy-like and of a polite manner even when pressing you within an inch of your life?
>>44536300
No, that's just eerie and creepy.
A public forum, one where the mere act of violence is so culturally abhorrent. A place or a truce where if the players were the aggressors this act of violence would stain any relations with the people in that area?
Not quite what you want, but one of my favorite set-ups to a fight went down in a way similar to the one described in the OP:
The party had been tracking a big-time pirate captain for some time, one who had been responsible for the destruction of one of the character's home town. After in-game months of systematically destroying his pirate fleet, we finally tracked him down to his illustrious mansion on a tropical island. We geared up for a major fight, but found the place to barely be guarded. After walking our way through the mansion, we found an old man sitting at the head of a table with a feast laid out on it in an elaborate dining hall. He invited us to sit, explained that he was the pirate we sought, and we traded stories as we ate, after being assured several times that there was no trap in store. We told stories of how we got into our professions, fights we had been in, and people we have met our our travels. When the food was gone and we were done talking, the pirate captain had his servants clear the table from the hall and calmly drew his sword as he challenged the guy in our party with a vendetta against him to a duel to the death. The captain didn't stand a chance and went down in about three rounds. I remember as the captain died there was a great silence around the room, the captain didn't even have any dying words. At the end of the day, all we hado accomplished was killing an old man who barely knew who we were until that day. We found a will in the mansion addressed to "The person who killed me" in which the captain's ship, house, and vast treasure hoard was given tour the killer. The guy who killed the captain just ended up burning the house and boat in an attempt to get some gratification out of his revenge. The funny thing was, even after the entire anti-climactic end to the adventure, everybody said that they liked the ending we got.
>>44536375
This.
Another good strategy is to have the BBEG's plans able to outlive him, and make sure the PCs know it. The knowing is the key of the thing.
Unless the PCs are hardcore, literally-don't-give-a-shit-about-anything murderhobos, they will be much more reluctant to attack him. And if they do?
Well, that's why this was in public. With over twoscore witnesses. And law enforcement nearby. They kill the BBEG? Congrats, best case scenario they're now fugitives. Worst case scenario, they see the BBEG's plans come to fruition from their cells, which also have a convenient view of the scaffolding for the gallows being constructed...
>>44536349
Now that is rude. Mind your manners, boy. Acting like you're better than folks.
>>44534886
He's "bad" because it's a job. He doesn't enjoy doing bad shit, he's just a thief or merc with bills to pay.
>>44535141
I personally hate when DMs do this. I had a DM that would just make like every character he didn't want us to kill 20th level. I'm sure you mean for him to be a bit more subtle about it then that but that is still all that comes to mind.
make him killable but make the consequences so severe that they know there would be no escape for them if they did.
>>44537020
>make him killable but make the consequences so severe that they know there would be no escape for them if they did.
>consequences so severe that they know there would be no escape for them if they did.
>they know there would be no escape for them if they did.
>they know
there's your problem. Most PCs never know what you think/hope they know, especially if it involves them not being able to do everything.
>>44535141
this is bad DMing
>>44534886
Okay this guy is a ghost Right? but he's the ghost of a demigod of Celebration, so You can't just perform an exorcism to get rid of him, and he keeps hurting people because in Life he was used to partying much harder than Moral bodies Allow. He's not mean about it and he was neutral so he's got his few loyal clerics cleaning up his messes and Healing his former hosts,But he is still a menace to the kingdom The PCs need to deal with. in between Hosts he is much more charming and sober and honestly does want to move on he just doesn't know how, so he will in fact cooperate/collaborate With the PCs to help put a stop to him,As well as be an excellent host to some excellent parties they are invited to.
>>44534886
Make the bag guy someone who respects his adversaries and deserves respect himself. LE is rgeat for that cause then they can have some kinda code of honor.
Make their and the PC's goals align, but make the bad guy think the ends justify the means (assuming your PCs are actually good guys and not murderhobos)
Think of the relationship between Magneto and Xavier.
>>44534886
Lawful Evil, of course. Drop hints about how this villain has never broken a deal, introduce NPCs who've had dealings with that Villain in the past, focus on that can trust with your life type approach. If you can't make sure he'll be absolutely truthful, you're done. I'm not saying that he'll tell them everything they want to know, but he won't drug their drinks, there won't be guards outside waiting to attack(if there are guards, they will be polite and have their weapons put away). You need to stress the amicability of this villain, and establish ingame rumors, knowledge, and firsthand accounts of that sort of trust.
dice+2d6
Rolled 5, 2 = 7 (2d6)
>>44535189
I'm racking my brain to think of a Superhero who'd have problems with making the world so much of a better place that they're not needed anymore.
It just doesn't seem very...villainous, unless he's planning on doing something very fucked up to the way people think to get the job done.
>>44534886
Flash can't have a pint with his rogues because they're good people. Flash can have a pint with his rogues because he's good people and they've grown to respect him and even like him when not in direct conflict.
What you need is amicable players and non-mental NPCs.
It's a sappy holiday, life day. Even though he's a supreme asshole of a public figure he does have principles. Yes, his numerous bodyguards could launch a volley of arrows and magic enough to level the whole feast hall and payoff/threaten any witnesses. He would love to really, but not today.
No. Today, he orders drinks for all and introduces his lovely wife, two daughters, and infant son. The same man who had just a week ago attempted to frame the party for murder to have them hanged is singing festive songs along with the parties half-elf bard and picking up the tab for the dwarven cleric and half-orc barbarians private drinking contest.
But as he and his group stumble off, he glances back and gives that sinister look. You know it means that he will be a completely different person the next time you meet.
>>44534886
The BBEG is in a position of power, the PCs are not.
The BBEG doesn't want to kill the PCs because he's either lawful, and the PCs are new in town so they had not chance to fuck up yet, or because he's looking forward to the "challenge".
Any setup where the BBEG is established before the PCs come into the picture already.
>>44534886
>>44534886
Read Treasure Island.
Take notes on John Silver.
>>44534886
The Villian, MrX does not kill innocents. He has his agenda that is at least somewhat justifiable. He does not targwt the heroes families or friends. He is like the general of an attacking army. He is difficult to fight, professional, possibly hiding behind the law and no doubt planning a new idea even now, but dealing with him is infinitly preferable to the Parasite Men of Planet Z or the mass murderer Killer Klown and his henchmen, the Suicide Pills.
In my Superhero RPG setting, the villian Wise Man would fill that role. He can see events and details about the future, and he has set out to save the planet from all the horrible things to come... But under his vision and organization. He'll sabotage and steal the player's jetplane for the tech. He'll recruit all the semi-villains the players have ticked off. He will install puppet governments into small nations and major companies. He may be right about his motivations, but he is still an asshole. But he'll deliver the secret weapon to the PCs against a greater threat, and respect them.
So yeah. Villians who are villians, but not killers of innocents, madmen or insane. He isn't out to destroy the world, just find his place in it.
>>44540711
i second this
>>44534886
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJq2PAI-Fxc
>>44534886
Okay, so you know how Hank Pym tries to be a hero but keeps fucking up and making genocidal robots? Make the villain that, but he's actually a villain pretending to be an inept hero.
>>44540711
>>44540785
I third this.
>>44540998
I wish my players were like the flash.
Players got captured by a bunch of elite guards and tried to escape in the most retarded ways possible, even getting one of them killed.
>Villain
I'm gonna assume you're talking more of a supervillain than a BBEG
Make him a toyman/trickster type. He's a genius that uses his gifts for fun rather than good or evil, but it just so happens that his version of fun is still evil
Bam. You've got Punchline, the laughing stock of the super-hero community
>>44540695
This
If your BBEG rules a land and welcomes the party into it playing host, but also is a bit of a dick/rude so he's far from likable and has plenty he sweeps under the rug while keeping a squad of guards with him with most meetings, there will be party members that begrudgingly appreciate his manners when he shows them.
>>44537509
The obvious solution is to ensure that they know that in advance. You don't have to literally make the situation unescapable, but you should make the consequences pretty damn bad.
I always liked Lex Luthor for this. Superman knows he's a bad guy, and so do the rest of the Justice League, but he's too smart to get caught red-handed. So if the heroes hurt him in any way, they'll be fugitives at best and thrown into turbojail at worst. Plus the whole point of being a superhero is that you support the authorities anyways, for the most part.
The real problem is that in most fantasy games, the characters are only lightly involved in the game-world, so telling them that they can't go back home gets them to shrug because they haven't been there all game and there's a lot more monsters to kill and things to steal in other places and they weren't planning on going back. This wandering rootlessness is the source of a lot of problems, which is why it's generally best not to worry about it.
On the other hand, it's totally possible to have the BBEG be a legit nobleman / merchant / soldier and meet them in taverns to have a friendly chat. He's more or less safe there, and if the players like him despite knowing that he's the reason they're miserable, then even better. Bonus points if he reminds them that if he's killed that somebody else will take his place, meaning that violence is still a shitty solution (as it is in real life, most of the time).
