>>44500984
saying such seems a little heretical anon are you sure your not a heretic.

>>44501003
I think he's a motherfucking heretic anon perhaps we should burn him out anon

>>44500984
If they're calling Him of Terra a corpse god, it means they are recognising His divinity.
Otherwise they would simply go "Hurr Durr, the Emprah doesn't exist! Look at me I'm a shitty cultist I worship Nurgle by soiling myself".

There is only one religion and one way to practise said faith.

Praise the immortal God Emperor or you have fucked up in the most heretical of ways.

>>44500984

Because usually cultists don't make straightforward appeals for imperials to go apostate. Instead, they create subcults that appear to be acceptable to the Imperium but carry the seeds of heresy.

So for example, say you have American-style protestant Christianity on a world. The Imperials arrive and immediately change it so that Jesus = Emperor. Then, gradually, the Ecclesiarchy starts to emphasize the parts of Christianity that are most like the Imperial Creed, and de-emphasize the parts (like love thy neighbor and forgive your enemies) that are least like the Imperial Creed. In a few generations, you have mostly orthodox Imperial Creed with a few local twists.

Got it so far?

Chaos does the same thing, only secretly. So say a particularly charismatic and devout priest comes to light. He's preaching fervently to worship the Emperor in his guise as Jesus. So far, pretty standard. His preaching emphasizes the miracles Jesus performed, and when he talks about the parts where Jesus rose again and went forth on galaxy-wide mission of conquest at all (rarely), it's in a very neutral and remote way.

He's *de-emphasizing* the parts that define the Imperial Creed. Often under the guise of revealing the "true Emperor of history" or "what the emperor really stood for". Or whatever. the Emperor becomes a horse he can ride to advance other ideals.

If he's a khornate, he'll focus on attacking the Temple and driving out the moneychangers. If he's a slaaneshi, he'll focus on divine love and ecstatic declaration of the joy of faith. If he's into Tzeentch, he'll spend a lot of time talking about the miracles jesus performed.

In other words, he'll slip some elements of chaos worship into Imperial orthodoxy. Then more and more, and eventually start removing the Emperor-worship or at least rendering it so vague and watered down that it's innocuous.

So unless a cult gets really, really, really far gone, their dogma will be heretical rather than outright apostate.

>>44501225

This happens all the time in real life. Most famously, communists actively sought to come up with interpretations of religions that were pro-communist. This worked best for judaism and christianity (both of which now have secularized procommunist splinter factions even now), but they have tried it for every faith and philosophy.

First, they teach that the religion can be enriched by using some ideas from marx. Then, that the religion's core beliefs really demand that the followers be marxists. Then that the religion is good because it advances marxist ideals. Then that the religion is a nice cultural touchstone for sundays and holidays, but that marx is what people of conscience use to guide their actions day-to-day.

In countries where this went far enough, the religion was then banned once the communists took over the government.

There was a whole department of the KGB that was devoted to this project. It's devastatingly effective. By no means is it only communists who did it, but they did it in the most organized and conscious way, and with the collapse of the USSR left the biggest paper trail. "Messianic Jews" are a similar project that southern baptists use to convert Jews. Many movements in history have some variation on this.

>>44501225
>>44501318

In an RPG, the way I'd use it is this:

When you're rolling up a planet for Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader or whatever, design a local variant of the Imperial Creed by starting with another religion. Then take that religion and start changing it to be more compatible with the general Imperial Creed. How advanced the world is in Imperial Service determines how far you go-- whether the changes are superficial or very deep.

If you started with a Roman-style pantheon, then you replace Jupiter with the Emperor. De-emphasize the rest of the pantheon-- those are helpers or servants or primarchs. Eventually they'll be demoted to not-quite-deity status. Elements of magic are removed, and replaced with generic veneration of Jupiter (the Emperor) without expectation of supernatural results. Holidays are recast into the Imperial mold. Some minor practices may be banned but survive as superstitions among the peasants.

Now if you want to corrupt that faith, go through its tenets. Start with those superstitions-- they're promising. Show people that those other gods like Logan Grimnar / Mars have powers, too. And that a timely sacrifice to Logan Grimnar can win a soldier good fortune in battle. That the Emperor demands hatred and intolerance of heretics and xenos, and by worshiping his servant Logan you're doing his will with especial fervor.

In a decade or two you'll have people doing blood sacrifices to Khorne and not even realizing that they're heretics. Because they still call him "Logan Grimnar" and still think they're worshipping the Emperor, only with EXTRA fervor.

They may never actually abandon the Imperial cult altogether.

Now that you've got the whole arc plotted, you can decide when the PCs show up and what the religion actually looks like at that point. Time it right, and your PCs may not even realize that the local variant of the Faith is heretical. Or they'll have to decide if the religion is too far gone to return to orthodoxy.

>>44501318
>"Messianic Jews" are a similar project that southern baptists use to convert Jews. Many movements in history have some variation on this

Wait, did you just say that Jews for Jesus=chaos cult?

>>44501225
>>44501318
>>44501443

>look at this fucking Recongregator

quality posts though

>>44501853
Southern Baptist here. Never thought I'd get compared to a Chaos cult, though now that I think about it I'm not sure why I'm surprised.

>>44501225
This makes sense.

However, most of the stuff you see the Imperium's warriors screaming 'heresy' and' heretics' at is straight up screaming Chaos madness. They refer to both the corrupted Imperial faith as heresy and the totally unabashed baby eating demon worshippers as heretics, and THAT doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

They're not called heathens because they probably did worship the Emperor at one point. A heathen is someone never of the faith. They're not Schismatics because they don't worship him at all in any way.

My guess is 'heretics' just sounds better to scream than a more wordy mouthful like 'apostate'.

>>44502049

In fairness, this tactic wouldn't be possible if ALL religions weren't pretty close to being chaos cults.

Agree it is a quality post.

>>44502250

Maybe. Imperial guard and marines probably are not up on the niceties of theology.

By the time a cult makes it onto the game table, it's pretty far gone. I'm sure most heresy is handled by the ecclesiarchy internally.

>>44502367
That's what I was thinking. Most of the stuff you encounter is already pretty far gone.

I suppose in the 41st millenium they could have a different understanding of the word, who knows.

>>44502250

If you believe everyone is under the rule of the Emperor's divine will, then anyone who contradicts His teachings are heretical.

>>44504355

Ahh, so you mean that by virtue of being human, you're automatically part of the imperial cult? And so you technically can't be apostate because you can't renounce the faith?

I like that.

>>44502447
by that point the imperial imiltary handles it before adeptus sororitas frateris Templars and arbites are involved with their efforts directed by the ecclesiarchy and/or inquisitors

>>44502003
>>44502281

Thanks guys

OK so another route to heresy is the "secret addendum" route. Any religion accretes a halo of semi-canon myths and legends. Some are transitory, some are permanent additions. Some eventually become part of canon.

The gnostics were an early such example. They had a whole extra mythology tacked onto Christianity that eventually got stamped out. For judaism, kabbalah is another example-- especially the variant cultish version that came out in hollywood that all the celebrities got into.

There's lots of examples. Hollywood started promulgating the idea that angels were human ghosts who'd "earned their wings"-- a view that has no basis in religious teaching. But for a while ordinary people started to believe that, just kind of by osmosis.

Another more recent example is the Rapture. It used to be a fringe protestant thing, but then when those books came out and were so popular, even some catholics started believing it, and many people started seeing that as a core protestant teaching. You can see from that how fast a religion can change unless it's ceaselessly policed.

So your local priest/minister/rabbi/imam pulls you aside for special added teaching. He eventually lets you in on a big secret: when Jesus was in the desert, he learned many secrets from the serpent, secrets passed on only to the most pious and fervent of the faithful. Secrets that he believes you may --MAY-- someday be worthy of learning.

You think you're being a good faithful Imperial, but you've really been ushered down the first steps towards Chaos. By an authority figure you've been conditioned since birth to believe without question. No wonder heresy is such a problem.

>>44500984
Because in the Imperium, being human is implied faith in the God-Emperor.

Which explains why mutants are associated with chaos.

>>44508592

Nice parallel.

Obviously, another approach to heresy is the "alternative religion" deal where you come in with an entirely new cult to replace the Imperial cult with. That's probably the most obvious way to do it, but the cult may still not be obviously associated with chaos.

Anon above is right that this would be a case of apostasy rather than heresy. Unless the new cult coming in was a valid imperial religion from another world. Sometimes the ideas are fine, but it's the leaders who use them who are corrupt. With some religious movements, when they get some momentum, it doesn't really matter what their actual tenets are.

cont. with example

>>44507272
That's why they call it the Imperial Cult, every Imperial's a member.

>>44510010


The Battlefleet: Gothic core rulebook has an example. In the years before the Gothic War, a fundamentalist imperial sect appeared. Self-flagellation, prophesies of doom, insisting that people live ascetic lifestyles to focus on getting right with the Emperor.

The Ecclesiarchy had trouble dealing with it. On one hand, it was all perfect Imperial dogma without a drop of heresy. On the other, it was subtly condemning the Ecclesiarchs themselves because by implication if giving up material goods is to be encouraged, then what about the leaders of the Imperial Creed and all their finery?

Even worse, all the panic and religious hysteria was keeping people from doing their work. So yeah people are screaming about how much they love the Emperor, but on the other, they're not paying their tithes because work isn't getting done. This hurt the local imperial economy and also reduced the Navy's revenues just at a time when they were going to need it.

Finally, the tone and tenor of the fundamentalist movement was creating an atmosphere perfect for chaos cults to operate in.

It befuddled the Imperials until the war broke out and they realized that it was all part of an elaborate propaganda campaign meant to soften them up.

Compare the Sicarii. During the Siege of Jerusalem, the jews needed then more than ever before to be united against the Romans bearing down on them. Instead, within the walls of Jerusalem, there were faction fights as each little group accused the others of treachery or insufficient piety. Eventually, this lead to bloody battles within the walls, while the Romans waited outside. The Romans probably would have won anyway, eventually, but this made their job much easier. And all allegedly in the name of faith and loyalty.

Heretics typically recognize the emperor as being a god-like figure, but reject him as being less worthy than the chaos gods. They would be heathens if they rejected his existence or his powers.

>>44500984
Idiot American
Heathen is a term for non believers who have not heard of the true religion
Cultists are from the imperium so they have abandoned the faith or more often twisted it - eg death cults that become murder and blood cults

>>44500984
>Heresy
>a belief or opinion that does not agree with the official belief or opinion of a particular religion
>dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice
>an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards

>Heretic
>someone who believes or teaches something that goes against accepted or official beliefs
>one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine
>a dissenter from established religious dogma

How do Chaos worshipers NOT go against the established Imperial religious dogma?