Was Gary Gygax considered to be an authoritative voice on RPGs?
Or was he just another sperg?
>>44443369
The fact you can ask the question means you already know the answer.
>>44443369
He is the father of roleplaying games, if H.G Wells is the grandfather of tabletop gaming
He aggressively denied any Tolkien influence on DnD despite it being based around the classic Tolkien races (to the point where halflings were originally called hobbits until the tolkien institute sued him over it) and the whole party goes into dungeons to fight monsters and find treasure is liften from both the Hobbit and LotR.
Sure, it's just as much Moorcock and Howard, but denying any influence is just being pretentious.
Gygax was the James Cameron of roleplaying games.
So yes, he was a sperg.
>>44443369
>Or was he just another sperg?
A question that sometimes shows up on Asperger's assessment quizzes is: "Have you ever had a fascination with building traps?"
I thought of Tomb of Horrors and lol'd.
Speaking of which, Moorcock did the same. He wrote a whole essay in which he bashes Tolkien.
Was denying Tolkien's influence hip back in the 70s and 80s?
>>44443369
Why not both?
ITT: people who can't into historical perspective.
>>44444273
Enlighten us
Sadly, yes.
His kitchen-sink design(by introducing disparate elements like Psionics and Oriental monks), is still felt to this day.
>>44444303
Not him, but I assume that OP's starter was related to how GGygax was perceived while he was most active, rather than now, in retrospect.
Honestly I have no idea how RPGs were perceived back then other than modern articles about "lol christians didn't understand DnD magic wasn't real silly christians lol".
>>44444320
At the time, throwing a ton of shit into a fantasy setting and seeing how they worked together was a pretty novel idea.
It still is, when the ramifications of them are explored properly.
>>44443369
Both.
>>44444117
He didn't deny any Tolkien influence. He just said it wasn't the main or biggest influence. Which is true.
And what the fuck does any of that have to do with James Cameron?
>>44444239
You're an idiot. Criticising Tolkien is not the same as saying he had no influence on anything.
>>44443369
That man right there invented RPGs, and for that /tg/ owes him a tremendous debt.
>>44444796
Butthurt Gygax fanboi
Go clean off your Gary waifu pillow
>>44444213
That's actually a really good question for an Aspergers assessment quiz.
My autistic brother once dug a fucking pittrap in our yard.
>>44444303
Look at OP.
>Was Gary Gygax considered to be an authoritative voice on RPGs?
Of course he was. He has been the only recognizable face of RPGs for years. When the stanic panic made the news, it was him who wen on TV: And his regular Dragon colms were pretty much the ultimate authority for D&D worldwide.
I heard a lot of things about the man in real life, but calling him "a sperg" is just supid.
Also, he always said that many Tolkien things went into the game because his players wanted them.
And Moorcock didn't criticize Tolkien because it was hip. If anything, the issue at the time was that there was too much influence, and Moorcock was one of those who were trying to break the mold.
In ref to Tolkien influences in D&D LotR were THE seminal fantasy novels of the last century of course they influenced D&D. Fantasy was an underground nerd genre the poor cousin of scifi till the 1970s and only gained widespread popularity.
>>44443369
Both.
>>44443369
I had the honor of meeting Gary several times at GenCon in the 1990s. He was a gregarious and kind man who made time to talk to everyone. A consumate story teller who is the co-creator of a entirely new type of game. I don't see why you would insult him.
>>44445558
Dem quads and trips!
Op is being a salty cunt or a troll. Anyone that enjoys tabletop RPGs owes a debt of gratitude to Gygax and Arneson.
>>44445584
>Arneson
Who?
>>44445603
You are so edgy pretending you don't know who Dave Arneson is.
>>44445586
He is spot on about the pacifism thing, anybody who expects the good guys to be pacifist is a fool or wants the bad guys to win.
>>44443875
>if H.G Wells is the grandfather of tabletop gaming
You are aware that H.G. Wells did not make the first tabletop game, right? Kriegsspiel came out way before his game. And stuff like Chess and snakes and ladders has been around FOREVER.
>>44445654
I don't know who he is. I mean, I'm googling it, but I have never heard of him 'till this point.
>>44445720
Kreigspiel was for Prussian Staff officers not for pleasure. H.G. Wells wrote and published the first set of rules for hobbyist war gamers
>>44443369
> Was Gary Gygax considered to be an authoritative voice on RPGs?
Well, yeah. You can like him or hate him, but he had a profound influence on the hobby. Gary Gygax and Steve Jackson are the only two big names I can bring up by memory, and Jackson more because his name gets put on everything in big bold letters.
>>44445753
Gary was religious?
>>44445757
I am guessing you are a youngling or new to the hobby. Dave Arneson is the co-creator of D&D. He invented/codified many of the early tropes/concepts namely Dungeon Masters and Dungeons.
>>44445837
how did you not know this
>>44445837
was a Born Again Christian, I do believe.
so much so he ended his emails with his favorite scripture from the bible . (something from the Gospel according to Matthew.)
>>44444117
Your an idiot. He's said the Tolkien themes are there because players asked for them, not because he wanted them.
>>44446019
And what did he want?
>>44446054
Moorcock.
>>44446019
DnD is completely based around a party of adventurers that go into caves to fight monsters and find treasure which comes from The Hobbit.
DnD takes the concept of planes from Moorcock and sword and sorcery from Howard to make the game more exciting but the base frame of the whole game is Tolkien.
>>44446019
No, he said the Tolkien races are there because players wanted them. I guess you're the idiot.
>>44443369
>Or was he just another sperg?
Yes
>>44444680
James Cameron's success is also based on things that are just cobbled together from other sources and he's smug about it.
And saying anything was a bigger influence on DnD than Tolkien is just delusional.
>>44446457
Doesn't all art steal?
>>44443369
Calling Gygax a sperg is pretty fuckin classy anon.
>>44443369
I don't think there's such thing as an "authoritative voice" on TRPG's.
It's all purely entertainment and therefore each version is based off subjective opinion instead of objective fact, and since there's no heirarchly involved in TRPG's in general and everything is based off of personal likes and dislikes it's sort of impossible for anyone to have a truly authoritative voice.
At best he was famous (just within the gaming community mind you, which is an extraordinarily limited sort of fame), and some people feel the need to listen to famous people because...I dunno, they have a hard time formulating opinions themselves? Or maybe they just want to hear a famous person say something? Or any number of reasons I suppose.
In any case, he's authoritative only if you stretch the definition of the word to the point of meaningless absurdity.
>>44443369
Hardly mutually exclusive things.
>>44446288
That's what I meant
>>44447069
Sure, however even if there's no honour among thieves, there's still "You didn't really try, did you?" among artists.
In terms of being a 'public face', Gygax was the only one.
In terms of game design? He made some stuff up with his friends that he thought was fun. DnD got lucky - stuff like Lejendary Adventures was bad.
'Word of Gygax' is important for some details (for example - hit points have always been meat points, all the way back to early magazine articles and the 1E DMG) but isn't important for RPGs as a whole.
>>44447704
should be corrected to 'hit points have always NOT been meat points'
Gygax himself:
>It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).
>>44447764
Which is completely ruined by poisons, falling damage, the fact the healing spell is called 'cure light wounds' and other such little details.
>>44443369
probably
>>44445837
How did you not know this?
>>44448026
>poisons
You're worn out or fatigued by poison. To the point that in 5e (and maybe some earlier editions), 'poison damage' and 'poisoned' are entirely dissociated things.
>falling damage
You use up some of your heroic luck surviving the fall. "I was lucky that time to survive that fall/land in these bushes, maybe I won't be so lucky next time"
>Cure Light Wounds
The magic reinvigorates you and inspires you to fight on.
>>44447704
>>44447764
>>44443369
The big problem with Gygax is that he was always assuming people would understand everything instead of properly explaining it. He's also unnecessarily verbose when he does explain things instead of offering more succinct explanations.
>>44448311
You made me chuckle.
>>44448311
Absolutely. Gygax overexplained what should've been a couple words, and assumed when he needed to explain more.
Things like Attacks of Opportunity came about because to Gygax&co, the idea of moving PAST an enemy was unthinkable - in wargames and earlier games you just didn't DO that, you couldn't. But DnD suffered when it wasn't spelled out.
>>44444239
yeah but moorcock is a self-righteous twat
>>44445864
Jehova's Witness.
>>44446270
D&D is based around "hey, this fantasy wargames are cool, you know what would be cooler? What if everyone controls just one character?"
I'm not saying that Tolkien wasn't an influence, if not on Gygax at least on his group (who shaped the game too). But to say it's inspired by the Hobbit is wrong.
>>44446270
>DnD is completely based around a party of adventurers that go into caves to fight monsters and find treasure which comes from The Hobbit.
Anyone claiming that there's just one main source for D&D and the rest is window-trappings is pushing an agenda. The work is consciously a pastiche.
In this specific case, the success of D&D lies in sending the same adventurers after "one more big score" again and again (with the pursuit of land and title a perennial "optional extra") - not something you find in The Hobbit. Conan the Barbarian is basically the archetype for the D&D adventurer, rising from a fortune-seeker to king, but Fritz Leiber's Twain also leave their imprint on the mold. Sure, those guys were solo or duo adventurers, and the idea of the party with separate defining skills comes from somewhere else again. (I suspect The Magnificent Seven, though it's only a hunch.)
>>44447226
>Reading books is purely entertainment guyze, it's all subjective opinion!
This is how you sound.
>>44448552
RPGs are purely entertainment. If you wanted to improve your intellect you'd be reading a science textbook or a literary masterwork.
>>44446270
>Adventurers armpit deep in filth and blood, killing and dying for treasure or glory
That's like half the Howard stories I ever read man.
>>44448590
If you only play with morons, maybe.
>>44448480
From what I gathered, he was raised in a JW family. He himself has saI'd he is a Christian and nothing much else.
But with how much JW talks bad about D&D, I would guess he left it.
Was OP considered to be an authoritative voice on /tg/?
Or was he just another faggot?
>>44448813
OP's no Gary Gygax, that's for sure.
>>44448658
what the hell kind of RPGs are you playing where you're not playing for entertainment?
unless you're reading GURPS sourcebooks or something - they do tend to be surprisingly well-researched.
I mean, I think Nobilis is a great game but I'm not reading it to learn about a mishmash of judeo-christian/norse/Hindu mythology, I'm doing it because it's fun.
because that's why you play RPGs. For fun - or at least, for entertainment.
>>44448962
You seem adamant in thinking that entertainment, especially the kind provided by RPGs, is mutually exclusive with any kind of personal growth, artistic value, or as you said "improving intellect".
>>44449063
>or as you said
He's a different guy than >>44448590.
>personal growth
What kind of personal growth comes from clearing the Tomb of Horrors?
>artistic value
Cooperative storytelling only has value to the group that created it.
>>44449063
You're like one of those kids that says that playing Halo makes him learn about war.
>>44449241
>What kind of personal growth comes from clearing the Tomb of Horrors?
Team building, puzzle solving, lateral thinking. However I wouldn't have chosen that as a prime example of what I mean.
>Cooperative storytelling only has value to the group that created it.
Unless it's the spark for something else. And again, I was talking about the books per se, not what is told at the table. Of course none of them is worthy of a place in the literary canon, but we really should start thinking about RPGs less from the math side and more from the literary side.
>>44449282
As I said earlier, if your whole experience with RPGs is mindless entertainment, you should find a better groupunless the matter is you.
>>44449365
Tangential learning in entertainment while applaudable is not the sole of the medium nor the most common for participating in the hobby.
Unless you're doing a weird troll or are autistic or do not have a firm grasp of the english language.
>>44449433
>Tangential learning in entertainment while applaudable is not the sole of the medium nor the most common for participating in the hobby.
>I like to turn my brain off when I play p&p games, so that's what everyone else likes to do, too
lmao k
>>44449365
You seem to be underestimating how important is entertainment in the development of a person. If you think that the focus of a game should be learning, then you're missing the whole point.
Also, are you autistic?
>>44449482
And tell me, what kind of intellectually stimulating games do you play? Solitaire? Because I get the feeling that you don't even have a table to play with
>>44449562
>He pointed out my dumb logic, that means he's deficient in some way
lmao m8
>>44449515
Why are you quoting me? I'm not the one saying that RPGs have no value because they are "just entertainment".
I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone
>>44445820
Thank you anon for blowing out this guy for me
>>44445584
>quads and trips
>post ends in 5558
>>44449241
>Cooperative storytelling only has value to the group that created it.
Because a lot of big productions and other games and serialized fiction, novels, and so on never came out of game groups and their tabletop role playing games. Never ever.
>>44450243
Not once, I assure you.
>>44450286
No sir, not a bit.
>>44443369
I'm jelly of Gary Gygax bur respect him immensely
He laid the foundation of roleplaying games
The man turned a hobby into a world wide phenomenon and made a lot of money, as well as created a legacy which will resound through civilized history
I don't believe he's an authority but he is worthy of respect
>>44444816
It was a good OP is a fag post tho
Bretty original
>>44450243
>>44450286
>>44450319
Are those the same stories that were created by the groups? Of course not.
They were edited, chopped up, and changed to conform to the visions and plots of Mizuno, Kazushi, and Kanzaka. The original story created by the group has been superseded by the story created by an individual.
>>44450286
>>44450243
>posts weebshit to prove his point
ayyy
>>44449626
Yeah, I really don't know a nice way to say this. I love Gary for creating one of the most popular RPGs of all time and doing it early enough that it helped many people over many generations get into tabletop gaming. But Jesus, the man was set in his ways and couldn't innovate or refine a single god damn thing over the years.
>>44446270
>DnD is completely based around a party of adventurers that go into caves to fight monsters and find treasure which comes from The Hobbit.
Nigga what
>>44450443
They still use the stories and ideas of those groups even if they implemented them in other ways. Welcome to directing.
>>44450542
Don't be mad that the only Dungeons and Dragons productions were a god awful movie where Jeremy Irons over acts and a city eighties cartoon with the only redeemable thing being Peter Cullen as the villain.
>>44446150
He meant Gygax, not OP.
>>44445657
>Kira Yamato intensifies.jpg
>>44445757
From my admittedly limited knowledge, Arneson's contribution to the development of role-gaming that lead to Dungeons & Dragons was more on the role-playing side than Gygax's. Gygax was more the machinist and without Arneson, D&D might've been a lot closer to a wargame. Both were pivotal in the creation of D&D, but Gygax was apparently more dedicated to the commercial aspects of the game and the company (TSR), and to producing more published material for it. For Arneson, it seems, it was more of a hobby (play) than a job (work). So Gygax ran things and became the face of role-gaming, while Arneson was simply the co-creator of the D&D. And that's probably why you've heard of Gygax, but not Arneson. Arneson and Gygax both got the ball rolling, but Gygax followed the ball along and kept it moving, if you follow my strained analogy.
>>44445753
Yeah, the bit about torpedoing Dangerous Journeys is arguably the cuntiest thing Williams did.
>>44443875
>tabletop gaming
Little Wars was always played on the floor
>>44446457
>And saying anything was a bigger influence on DnD than Tolkien is just delusional.
I honestly think that Tolkien had a large influence on D&D than Gygax liked to admit, but it's not like there weren't other, very important works of fantasy out there. Howard's stories predated The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, and it's hard to argue that Conan wasn't hugely important to fantasy. Fritz Leiber was writing at the same time as Tolkien, and Moorcock, a bit later. And honestly, they all fit the style of D&D more than Tolkien does (to say nothing of Jack Vance, who left an indelible mark on the game) . Also, keep in mind also that the tropes Tolkien used didn't come out of nowhere. He built on existing mythologies.
>>44447226
The dude co-invented role-playing games as we know it. I'm not saying you have to agree with all his positions on stuff, but he's extremely relevant to any role-player with an interest in the history of their hobby.
>>44445231
Your brother will do well in the zombie apocalypse.
>>44450685
He wasn't a perfect human being. Nobody is. But he was a damned good gamer and a damned good game designer, and he understood what his audience wanted. He had his quirks but I think his opinions resonate throughout the ages.
In nine situations out of ten, Gygax was right. He was right about the millieu of fantasy gaming. He was right about the role of narrative vs game. he was right about the role of the DM. He was right about what it is people want from systems. He was right about the appeal of gaming. He was right about how tropes can be used in gaming.
He was an all around good guy. Basically Gygax's D&D and Traveler are the two seminal works in gaming. Everything else is just icing on the cake.
>>44452737
I feel like GURPS and the first percentile skill-based game deserve honorable mentions, but pretty much
>>44450740
Have you actually got a point to refute them with? You think if the soviets had just laid down there weapons in 1941 and asked Hitler to make peace and stop being such a big meanie that would've stopped the nazis? Really hardcore ideological pacifism is just a fancy way of saying cowardice, sure you should prefer war to peace but to deny war is sometimes necessary and to refuse to ever take part in it is just insanity.
>>44452008
Your autism badge is dispatched and should be with you shortly
>>44450549
A creator being set in his ways is hardly unheard of. I'll even postulate it is pretty normal. George Lucas for example.
>>44450685
>>44452765
*sure you should prefer peace to war
>>44445837
He was. He kept his religious views to himself because of the Satanic Scare. Gary was a deeply devout Christian, it's why he so staunchly stood up for the alignment system, because he was terrified that people might mistake his game as a defense of amoral graverobbing. He used to quote Kipling poems at cons.
>tfwhenever I hear Iron Cold Iron recited by some dipshit fedora like it's a profound pragmatist statement
if Gary Gygax is the Father of RPGS
Then Dave Arneson is The Holy Spirit
>>44450685
CALL 911 NOW
>>44444320
Monks were designed by dave arneson and some other guy, not gygax.
arneson created DND dont u agree ?
>>44452923
He took the Wine and blessed it. He blessed and brake the Bread.
With His own Hands He served Them, and presently He said:
"See! These Hands they pierced with nails, outside My city wall,
Show Iron -- Cold Iron -- to be master of men all."
I assume they just read the first verse and assumed it was some Reins of Castermere shit.
>>44452944
But then who is the Son?
>>44453406
Hickman
>>44450608
>Welcome to directing.
>implying directing is cooperative storytelling
>>44452008
Kek
>>44452923
Iron Price, much?
>>44444722
Mark Miller or either of the Steve Jacksons might have done it in Gygax's absence, given their wargaming work.
Or some other no-name wargaming club, in Cedar Rapids or Palo Alto rather than Milwaukee would have come up with something like D&D. It's not that far of a jump from skirmish level wargaming to actual RPGs.
>>44444117
Gygax only added in hobbits by insistance from his playtesters; he didn't really understand their relevancy himself when he already used gnomes to fill in their niche.
>>44446270
You are a dimwit who doesn't know that D&D is derived from a wargame where you lay siege to a castle and its dungeon (chainmail), and its primary purpose was to add the ability to control and manage a castle on the player side: the original objective of D&D was to BUILD a castle and act as the defenders of the game, and that's why you're busy dungeon diving for funds!
>>44445837
Don't you know that just about any fantasy writer that isn't Jewish is?
>>44454526
--Actual medieval tactic: Tunnel under the walls, and then burn the supports, so the section of wall collapses.
--Clever player: OK, so why don't we just tunnel all the way into castle?
--Wargame referee: Hm. OK. So what does a wizard keep in his basement?
>>44445231
Wait, seriously? Shit, man. I sometimes do that for fun or when I'm bored at work. The booby traps thing, not digging pit traps.
Though digging pit traps at work would be lulz.
>>44454159
>Mark Miller or either of the Steve Jacksons might have done it in Gygax's absence, given their wargaming work.
But they ultimately didn't. And here we are.
>>44455396
>Which wire?
*sigh*
The blue one? Isn't it obvious?
>>44450685
>>44452259
What is Appendix N?
>>44453406
Monte Cook
>>44453406
>But then who is the Son?
An TSR worker who brought redemption and died for our sins?
Maybe Tom Moldvay.
The big reason that most people today don't know Dave Arneson is that he was only involved in a very small amount of actual D&D products. After all, his original stay at TSR didn't even last a year.
What Arneson did was, as someone already mention, to take all the disparate elements of "fantasy wargaming" and put them in a context of a fantasy world where the characters lived, interacted and affected their environment, rather than just a series of random scenarios on maps which was what Chainmail and similar products was into. Arneson's Blackmoor was the direct inspiration for Gygax to start putting together a setting for his Home Campaign, the game that would eventually become Greyhawk. Arneson was also always looking to make his games accessible and fun for new players, and was far less interested in draconian or involved rules systems than Gary. Arneson favored the roleplaying/non-combat side of the nascent RP games and it very much shaped the way that D&D evolved.
That being said, it was a collaborative process in every way. Neither Gygax nor Arneson solely created RPG's (in fact both of them merely built on existing games). But Arneson is the one nobody remembers, and I think that's sad.
>>44460441
indeed. I would say that him, loren k wiseman and the Keiths are the unsung heroes of the early days of tabletop RP
>>44459584
Why not his actual son Luke?
>>44443369
Yes
>>44443369
He's largely responsible for creating and popularizing tabletop as we know it, so of course his voice had significance. That said he stopped being in charge of it relatively quickly, and you are free to disagree with or even ignore most of what he had to say.
He was important and should be recognized for that, but he wasn't the end all guy in charge of pretend time.
>>44460844
>Very quickly
Eh, he's been the voice of authority until mid-80s at least, that's a quarter of the lifespan of RPGs as we know them.
Nowadays he's dated, sure, but I don't think many people can claim his weight in the story of RPGs (I mean, other people have done bigger and better things, but never spoke as much as he did).
>he wasn't the end all guy in charge of pretend time
Read his Dragon columns. He pretty much was, for a while.
>>44443369
>False Binary
He was the originator of something good others later improved on.
>>44460870
> for a while.
And then he stopped.
I'm not gonna say he didn't have a huge amount of influence and authority over it at one point. In fact that's pretty much the opposite of what I'm saying. But he stepped down from it and tabletop moved on.
He's like any guy who used to be important but then retired. Like a former president. He was basically the former president of D&D. He was important and it's important to recognize his influence but nobody was obligated to pay attention to him after the fact.
A sperg is someone who turns up to sessions with homebrewed furry half breed races who are also lolis who spend your sessions trying to date rape you.
>>44460441
"Gygax" is a very unusual name -- sounds positively fanciful -- far more memorable than "Arenson." I'm sue that played a part in it.
>>44443369
On D&D, sure. His opinions didn't matter to the people who played any other system, though.
