If GURPS is it rule heavy system and FATE is a light one, what's a rule medium?
what's the medium
>>44176094
Savage World
>>44176094
Pathfinder :^)
>>44176094
But Fate is medium. There are tons of lighter systems than fate.
>>44176138
Savage worlds a good system but I'd say it's rules lite wouldn't you?
>>44176147
Lol nope :)
>>44176094
GURPS with less rules.
FATE with more rules.
BESM second.
>>44176215
Nah. It isn't as complex as a D20 system or GURPS, but hardly anyone would argue that it is as light as Fate, Apocalypse World, etc.
The FFG Star Wars RPG is a pretty good medium too.
A medium system has a simple to grasp play style, but has enough depth to allow for complex strategies, combos, rules for distance, driving, and other such actions, a clear definition of areas affected, more variety in statistics and such, however it doesn't get into too much depth with several different armor types, day and night effects, outright unkillable foes being common if you don't have special gear, and what not.
This is getting to complex. Let's just use grapple as an example.
Fate
>I put this guy in a headlock
That will be an opposed roll
>Not a problem because I am 'The state wrestling champion' *spend a fate point*
Four dice are rolled, but the character has a clear advantage and against a typical opponent he is going to win despite a shit roll on his part and a fantastic roll on the DM's part
D&D
>I grapple him
Roll opposed strength checks, plus the guys you go past to get to him get an attack of oppurtunity, he is covered in mud so your grip will be less sure than usual so -2 to your check.
He still gets to attack with a free hand, and you cannot attack until your next turn.
Savage Worlds
>I grapple
Roll opposed strength. Add static modifiers for parties involved and the environment.
You can't change the game with special effects like you can with fate points or spending luck to make sure you shine, but you don't have to worry about AS much shit like you would with D&D.
OD&D
Has some simulationist rules for weight carrying and a few other things, but heavily abstracted rules for fighting and characters. There being only 4 character classes plus 2-3 race classes and each one is extremely linear, no feats or anything, means that its actually pretty rules lite as far as character building is concerned.
>>44176488
Savage worlds is interested to place on the scale because it does cover a lot of can you play option in a rather broad fashion. There is a rule for everything, but it's a simple easy to remember rule.
>>44176505
Yes all D&D. You can definitely tell they have the basis of DND fairly well hammered out by then and then late decided to go crazy and added countless extra rules.
For what it's worth I think the new world darkness does a good job of finding a happy medium. Yes the writing is a load of wank and character creation is still shit and unbalanced.
But it does give you just enough rules to feel you making a confident Call as story teller without loading you down with endless charts and checks.
>>44176094
Savage Worlds
Also, Strike!
>>44176094
Pardon me, but could I interest you in ORE or One Roll Engine?
>>44176215
I would not, Savage Worlds would be my go-to system for describing medium.
FATE and Dungeon World would be rules light.
Thing like Risus and Lasers and Feelings are excessively light.
>>44176094
FATE is hardly a "light" system.
There are systems that're GMless that're incredibly close to freeforming.
>>44177405
Virt? How'd you get back in?
>>44176094
A rules medium game is any game that is not rules heavy or rules light.
>>44177405
Why are you so angry?
>>44177405
You should first open the rulebooks of the systems you want to discuss about, and maybe even read them. Don't worry, I'll be waiting right here.
>>44177433
It can't be Virt, that poster complimented Apocalypse World.
People give Apocalypse / Dungeon world as an example of a 'rules light' system and I'm just confused. They are literally whole books of rules with special rules for almost everything.
I thought 'rules light' was meant to mean something with not many rules or vaguely defined rules, but that's the exact opposite of the 'powered by apocalypse' games.
>>44177681
Virt randomly compliments shit to seem as though he's not just one of those assholes who hates everything because they think it makes them smart.
>>44177600
...There any games you like?
>>44177722
There's no way Virt would call Savage World shit, either. Dude can't hide himself for long.
>>44177854
>The GM can't kill your character without consent!
GM still has absolute authority; it's his ball and he can take it home any time he pleases Moron.
>>44177941
Nah, last time he returned he said he thought Savage Worlds was pretty crappy, just somewhat better than Unisystem.
>>44177854
>Yes, there are a few. None of the ones listed so far, though.
What are they?
>>44177433
>Virt? How'd you get back in?
They just banned his tripcode. He's free to post anonymously now that he finally figured out how to change his IP address.
>>44177600
>>44177854
You can tell these are Virtsquirts because of his extremely telling posting style. If it's not him, it's a clever imitator.
>>44177405
>FATE is crap because (...) requires you to either spend extra money on special dice or get a headache after 3 hours of reading d6s as - and +
You poor, poor dear.
>>44177695
When people are talking about "Rules Light" games, they aren't talking about actual rules. What they really mean is crunch, the math of the game.
>>44176094
GURPS lite?
>>44177854
>The GM can't kill your character without consent!
Actually, they can, especially if that was discussed before the campaign started. Not killing is a recommendation though that is assumed throughout the system. Page 168:
"In practice, though, this assumption might be pretty controversial
depending on what kind of group you’re in. Some people think that character
death should always be on the table, if the rules allow it—if that’s how
the dice fall, then so be it.
Others are more circumspect, and consider it very damaging to their fun
if they lose a character upon whom they’ve invested hours and hours of
gameplay, just because someone spent a lot of fate points or their die rolls
were particularly unlucky.
We recommend the latter approach, mainly for the following reason:
most of the time, sudden character death is a pretty boring outcome when
compared to putting the character through hell. On top of that, all the story
threads that character was connected to just kind of stall with no resolution,
and you have to expend a bunch of effort and time figuring out how to get
a new character into play mid-stride."
I bet Virt would get a brain aneurysm reading through systems that very tightly tie narrative to the very idea of how a game is run, such as the upcoming Shinobigami translation.
>>44178037
Not him but I don't think they cost dice mechanic in FATE is pretty stupid. 4d3-8 it's just an insane way of doing things.
I'd be a lot more open to the game if it was based simpler yet more easily simulated d6-d6 minus or even just a straight 2d6 with 7 as the baseline.
>>44178207
Fate System Toolkit, page 66:
"OTHER DICE
Don’t have your Fate dice or Deck of Fate handy? Here are some alternatives to get your game going.
D6-D6
Take two six-sided dice of different colors. Designate one as the positive die
and the other as the negative, and roll. Subtract the negative from the positive
to get a result of -5 to +5. Doubles are always a zero. It’s “swingier” than four
Fate dice, and the range is broader, but it’s close enough for jazz."
I assume everyone knows how to use anydice.com to compare how 4dF bell curve compares to d6-d6.
>>44178207
It's meant to provide an extremely stable bellcurve, without outright disallowing the possibility of exceptional roles in either direction.
>>44178288
But why didn't they make the D6 system default then instead of creating the Muant D6 abomination the dF. It works just as well.
>>44177405
>BESM
>Jap
Guardians of Order were Canadian, White Wolf are American, and owned by Swedes.
>>44178473
It doesn't work just as well, it doesn't produce the same bellcurve. One of the core conceits of Fate is that the characters in it are supposed to be extremely competent individuals, that don't regularly go into slapstick shenanigans whenever they attempt an action.
>>44178048
So GURPS is rules-heavy because you sometimes have to multiply and divide small numbers instead of just adding them?
Does this mean D&D is rules-light? It has basically the same math as PBtA games.
>>44178563
>One of the core conceits of Fate is that the characters in it are supposed to be extremely competent individuals, that don't regularly go into slapstick shenanigans whenever they attempt an action.
fucking this.
>>44178207
You're supposed to only roll for any opposed action or any action in which both success and failure are potentially interesting. Otherwise, the GM should assume that expert burglar can probably pick a simple indoor lock without a check for example.
The reason Fate uses 4d3-8 instead of D6-D6 or something is to have a stronger tendency towards the mean. You have a little under a 25% chance of rolling a zero and an over 60% chance of rolling greater than >-1, for instance. So while it doesn't completely rule out unexpected problems, they don't happen every other goddamn time you roll and turn supposedly expert characters into bumbling fucking morons when they try anything that isn't absurdly easy.
>>44177405
>I get a headache from attempting to read dice
Is it possible you don't like tabletop gaming?
>>44177405
>You mean FATE?
Fate isn't GMless. I think you're just a retard who gets off on shitting on systems he's never played and/or never looked at.
>>44178772
People will genuinely tell you that GURPS is rules heavier than D&D, yes. I have heard this many times.
>>44178910
Well, it does have more rules... But most of those are optional.
>>44178910
>>44178934
GURPS has more rules then dnd, the big different GURPS has more sensible logical that follow a clear design pattern compared to early dnd, which has a pick and mix approach to rules.
>>44178866
To be fair having to look at the dice and think okay I got X so that means either +,- or blank is a bit more inconvenient than looking at a dice and saying I rolled X so I got X and It can quickly get annoying when you have to do it a lot.
>>44178910
>>44178934
GURPS has more rules then dnd, the big different GURPS has more sensible logical that follow a clear design pattern compared to early dnd, which has a pick and mix approach to rules.
>>44179280
Yeah, but, unlike FFG dice, FUDGE dice are useful for things completely unrelated to FUDGE/FATE.
Speaking of funny dice, I really like how Modiphius are doing their special dice.
I'd say dungeons and dragons 5e is medium now. After 3e and 4e they consolidated a lot of stuff, like advantage/disadvantage, and the class packages. Page-wise there's still a fair bit of stuff in there, but it's all very simple.
Also I wouldn't really claim that Fate is light. It has a lot of rules that just play differently than most games on the market. I did not understand how Fate worked after a first read, which struck me as either poor writing or more complicated concepts.
Stuff like Risus, PDQ, FU, or most 2d6 skill systems, are pretty light.
>>44179280
Using more than one dice at a time is always more annoying than using an app, and any basic dice roller app will either have dF, or let you put in a custom roll, so you can use 4d3-8 as a standard roll.
That's what I do in roll20, use macros for 4d3-8 (+ whatever skill level).
Pathfinder desu
>>44179355
>Using more than one dice at a time is always more annoying than using an app,
Pfft.
>>44179456
There is literally no argument in favor of dice if you need to use any kind of formula whatsoever. A good app will always be simpler and faster.
>b-b-b-but I wanna feel the dice ;_;
I bet you hate ereaders too because the point of reading books is smelling the paper and flipping pages.
>>44179348
DnD is perfectly on par with GURPS for weight.
The difference being that GURPS's weight is a result of being so broad. DnD has like two identical settings and some shit tacked on sloppier than a early PS2 multiplayer mode.
>>44179546
I hate e-readers because there is no reason to buy one over a proper tablet..
>>44177514
What would you say is a good system then? Fa favorite system?
>>44179546
How are you going to intimidate your players with an app?
What do you guys think of Magical Burst's system? I'm reading through it and I like it so far.
>>44179606
E-ink displays are excellent. And my ereader's battery lasts a few weeks between charges. A tablet is good if it can last eight hours.
>>44179690
And what else is your e-reader good for? My 'e-reader' (actually a laptop) can do millions of other things. Your shitty Kindle can't do fuck.
>>44179606
I very much disagree. I love reading with my kindle paperwhite, and hated using my Fire to read e-books. Reader is lighter, has amazing battery life, and size is more manageable. If you're somebody that likes to read for hours at a time, tablet just cant compare to an e-reader.
>>44178866
>>44178563
True and I know we Bemoan the utter Randomness of D20. But Fate swings too far the other way in my taste.
If your only rolling as dramatically appropriate (would you should) that the highly predictable bell curve undermines that IMHO. There is such a little number range and swing it feels pointless.
Personally I would've preferred and two of taking things further and gone completely dice less. Which I'm in opinion can work, although I'm in the minority
>>44179730
You know owning one device doesn't stop you from owning another, right?
E-ink displays aren't like LCDs. They're literally ink on paper. They don't flicker like LCDs and don't cause eye-strain. They reflect light in a way that makes it easy to read; mine doesn't even need a backlight. And again, I'd like you to name one other electronic device you own that you can use for a couple weeks before recharging.
>>44179730
>Man who needs dedicated kitchen knives I've got this multitool. What else can your shitty cleaver do? Can it serve as a corkscrew? Hell I dont need an axe if I decide to take up woodcutting, it's got a little saw too.
This is you right now.
Ereaders are better for reading, they dont have refreshy flashy screens which makes extended reading a shit.
>>44179779
My calculator.
>>44179828
I don't even own a calculator any more, because a smartphone app does it just as well.
>>44179853
>a smartphone app does it just as well.
Hue. I'm not talking about some shitty primary school calculator here.
>>44177405
Welcome back Virt!
Was starting to miss all my threads getting shitted up.
>>44179875
Yes, I know. A scientific or graphic calculator? You know smartphones can do those, too. Maybe if it's some super specialized obscure calculator you need special hardware for, perhaps, but that's an exception, not a rule.
>>44180153
This calculator has a 402-page manual. I don't believe you when you say there is an app that simulates it.
>>44180237
>specialized obscure calculator with its own hardware
>a 402 page manual isn't hardware
he literally said thats an exception, not a rule.
>>44180237
What kind of calculator is it?
>inb4 some rather obscure hardware only useful in one specific field
there are graphic and scientific calculators on the Apple Store and Google Play. Many of which are even more advanced than simple calculators like the Ti-84 or so on, and being an app, they cost much less too. Not to mention a smartphone can access Internet resources like Wolfram Alpha.
>>44178866
>>44178288
>anydice
not used this, mind explaining the D6-D6 or giving what to enter to see the curve?
Also I've never actually played fate, what exactly is so special about dice do you need for it?
Seriously, if Fate is in anyway less lolrandom dice rolls that decide the game than most systems, sign me the fuck up.
>>44180293
This is the manual in question: http://support.casio.com/pdf/004/fx-9750GII_Soft_E.pdf
I'm pretty sure it's not weird hardware.
You could simulate it on a smartphone, but everything would be buried in menus because the calculator itself has a fuckton of buttons.
>>44180345
fx-9750GII
>>44180354
output [1d6 - 1d6] name "d6-d6"
output [4d6 - 8] name "4d6-8"
![RG5Z4Ugxrah72SC2-I8EQCFhiO9xKGGd0u6j1qd_3HUVZCR_B-pRlulbspwARj2XWUk=h900[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/YiwdJf8.png "RG5Z4Ugxrah72SC2-I8EQCFhiO9xKGGd0u6j1qd_3HUVZCR_B-pRlulbspwARj2XWUk=h900[1].png")
>>44180358
So...just a graphing calculator?
It's cute you think a smartphone can't manage that. Look up graphing calculator apps for yourself.
>>44180354
This.
>>44180358
>You could simulate it on a smartphone, but
no. stop. you just countered your own argument, and nobody cares about your super fancy calculator. 99% of people would be able to get along just fine with a calculator app anyways.
>>44180358
>you could simulate it on a smartphone
you literally just acknowledged that your argument is wrong
>Pretty sure it's not weird hardware
>Literally over 400 pages
>buried in menus
>what is proper formatting
>what is dropdown menus
>>44177405
>virt is back
And here I was enjoying the peaceful days
>>44180482
He never left.
If you pay attention to shitposting in threads like this one you'd notice a pattern pretty quickly.
At this point he's not even worth responding to.
>>44180381
neither of those work for me, sorry for being retarded.
![0cb8014843[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/nOKCq5d.png "0cb8014843[1].png")
>>44180354
>Also I've never actually played fate, what exactly is so special about dice do you need for it?
It uses Fudge dice, which are d3s with -, 0, and + instead of 1, 2, and 3. Most Fudge dice are just d6s with two of each side - same probability, just easier to make.
You roll 4dF for most checks, and add or subtract the result from your skill you're checking. If I have a +3 in Fight and roll 4dF, I might get -, 0, +, +, which is a total result of +4. The reason for this dice is probability - the distribution curve favors the mean, about 62% of results will be 0 or +/-1.
FATE uses shifts to calculate things like damage (which doesn't use an HP system). So if I roll a +4 and my target rolls a +2, I have a two-shift hit.
Manipulating rolls is basically the core mechanic of FATE. You can spend FATE points (a currency you gain and spend very regularly in play) to "buy" a reroll or add a bonus to your roll. You get FATE points by doing sub-optimal things or accepting penalties that suit your character's traits, which encourages and rewards roleplaying.
Pic is the distribution table for 4dF.
>>44180539
It should be 'named', not 'name'.
>>44180514
Yeah, I've been suspecting it for a while but I wanted to believe otherwise.
I hope he picks up a trip soon so that I can filter him again.
>>44180354
>anyway less lolrandom dice rolls that decide the game than most systems, sign me the fuck up.
Well I guess you could go with the 4DF and her -4 +4 number range , if you're the guy into that sort of thing.
but wouldn't you prefer to go for the nice elegant round curves that the 3D6 can give you.
>>44180514
It's gotten rather pathetic at this point, like watching an infamous old contestant from American Idol reduced to doing novelty gonzo porn with hobos.
>>44177405
Virt! Buddy! When did you get back in town?
>>44176094
For me, Barbarians of Lemuria sets the standard for rules-light. On one end of the category, you have minimalist stuff like Lasers and Feelings, and on the other, Basic D&D (or at least Moldvay Basic, BECMI and RC start encroaching on rules-medium). 3.x D&D might actually be a decent marker for rules-heavy. I'm not sure what I'd base rules-medium off of. Maybe Savage Worlds?
>>44181943
*or at least Moldvay Basic; BECMI and RC start encroaching on rules-medium
>>44179546
>There is literally no argument in favor of dice if you need to use any kind of formula whatsoever.
Personal preference, it's literally all the argument anyone needs.
>>44180778
>nice elegant round curves that 3d6 give you
hows that work?
I know 2d6 is one positive and one negative, but what the fucks the third dice for?
>>44182050
Fine. I'll grant that. Perfectly acceptable.
There is literally no practical, non-aesthetic argument in favor of dice if you need to use any kind of formula whatsoever. A good app will always be simpler and faster.
>>44182099
3d6-9
>>44182099
>what the fucks the third dice for?
Different systems. GURPS, specifically, uses 3d6 roll under.
>>44182127
>There is literally no practical, non-aesthetic argument in favor of dice
Intimidation.
>>44180514
The solution is to report him. Thanks to those that did.
>>44182153
I don't understand.
>>44182166
>Gurps
I mean, I want less randomness, but not enough to tackle the beast that is gurps.
>>44182166
>Intimidation
Like the sound? So get an app that makes a beep or something when you roll.
>>44182204
>not enough to tackle the beast that is gurps.
Allow sources other than GURPS Lite on a per-item/request basis.
>>44182099
The 3d6 is better for a nice, statistical bell curve. Even better then a percentage die concerning modifiers through all the various situations one can encounter in an TRPG.
>>44182228
>a beep
Wow how scary. Nothing at all like the mighty clatter of a shitload of d6s.
>>44182228
Nah, its like, as the DM, at a critical roll, spending an inordinate amount of time shaking the dice before release to up tension.
>>44182127
Increased transparency (so you don't have to worry about players quickly pressing the roll button again if they got a bad roll) and less of a worry about people getting distracted by their phones.
>>44182301
>worry about players quickly pressing the roll button again if they got a bad roll
A good app can show roll history.
>>44182301
>people getting distracted by their phones.
That's a problem with the players, not the app. Consider allowing just one phone on the table, with the app open. Or just playing with good players.
>>44182252
Only because that's the sound you've learned to associate with it. It's no less arbitrary. Much like the analogy made earlier about people who don't like ereaders because they associate the smell or feel of paper with reading a book, even though it seems obvious to others that the content of a book is what's important, not its format.
>>44182264
That looks no less silly than drawing out tapping the roll button.
>>44182359
>That looks no less silly than drawing out tapping the roll button.
Nah, it absolutely is less silly, because drawing out tapping the roll button isn't "natural"
>>44182359
>A good app can show roll history.
Yeah, but if they're making the same roll over and over again then that relies on everyone else remembering what their previous rolls are to spot an extra that doesn't belong. And also in my experience using a dice app fir varrying dice pools is an exercise in frustration.
>>44182441
>And also in my experience using a dice app fir varrying dice pools is an exercise in frustration.
Mine lets you put in custom formula and save it as a button. And you don't have to remember every prior roll, just whatever was rolled last.
>last guy rolled, say, an 18
>roll history is other rolls, 18, 1, 15
yeah, not that hard to figure out what happened there.
>>44182399
By "Not natural," you mean only not what you're used to. Rolling a tiny plastic shape is no more natural than pressing a button.
>>44182518
Nah, because taking some time to shake is a natural element of shaking a tiny plastic shape, so taking some extra time is less unnatural than moving your finger towards a button reaaaalllllyyyyy sllllooooowwwwwlllllyyyy
>>44182491
>Mine lets you put in custom formula and save it as a button.
As most do. The problem is when you're using an actual dice-pool system, where your dice pool is not always the same.
>>44182695
>reaaaalllllyyyyy sllllooooowwwwwlllllyyyy
Just do it with some flourish while drawing your narration out in a dramatic tone.
>>44182755
Fair enough, if you have to actually roll different rolls all the time inputting them every time could be annoying. I think that's not a typical case though.
>>44182852
>I think that's not a typical case though.
What is Shadowrun and every single non-d20 White Wolf game?
>>44182852
No, its certainly not every system, but it certainly applies to a significant minority.
>>44182127
>There is literally no practical, non-aesthetic argument in favor of dice if you need to use any kind of formula whatsoever. A good app will always be simpler and faster.
Well, I would say since role playing games are very much a matter of "the experience" that an aesthetic argument, while subjective, is still a pretty valid one.
That said, I really don't see any reason to get bothered if you prefer an app. Frankly I feel silly for even being bothered when I thought you were just doing that "my tastes > anything else" thing.
>>44176215
I wouldn't say so at all. There are rules for many situations in SW, but the implementions of those rules are fast and simple. Definitely the happy medium between detailed and user friendly.
>>44176094
Anima of course
>Heavy rules for combat, crafting, magic
>Fate-heavy rules for psy and social
>>44179546
Easy, boss. It's because with a rulebook, I can stick my fingers between several pages and rapidly flip through them for consulting, versus having to renavigate through menus on an e-reader. It's more convenient.
>>44185046
It's also easier to flip between multiple pages in different parts of the book.
>>44176094
Cypher system.
>>44186585
That's moote's cook system right?
I had a look at it, not bad really. It does do away with a load of sacred cow that had come to lout the d20 systerm but adds a load of it's own. Ie X3 difficulty ranking.
Shame he didn't have editorial oversight.
>>44186905
What's that mean?
>>44186978
Rather than giving you a difficulty rating of 1 to 20 like in Dnd. Difficulty is on a scale of 1 to 10. Then multiply by three for the actual target number.
So a Standard difficulty test of 5 means you have get a to 15. Not 5 as you would expect.
There is absolutely no reason for this.
>>44187073
That is indeed strange
>>44187073
The reason. Is for for intrusions, and major and minor effects, which are the meat of Cypher Systems 'narrative' side.
That said, I've been considering having my players roll a 1d6 for difficulty, and a 1d20 for intrusions/effects, so we get effects and intrusions that are divorced from the fail/success roll. However, I'm not sure if I want them rolling a die that's got no effect 20% of the time.
