What is the worst thing a GM can do to players and why is it level drain?
Running a system that contains level drain.
>>44141662
>adventurer rescues a cute prisoner
>she asks to talk to him alone
>embraces him and kisses him
>she's a succubus
>level drains him to death
>DM reads DMG and tells says he "rises the next night as a monster of the same kind"
>hero rises as succubus
>>44141741
>DM reads DMG and tells says he "rises the next night as a monster of the same kind"
I don't think you've read the DMG.
>>44141796
>A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.
>>44141796
Looks like you haven't read the DMG yourself >>44141811
>>44141811
>Depending on the creature
I mean it doesn't specifically say that succubi aren't included, but i'm pretty sure the creatures where you rise as the same kind all specifically say that in their monster manual writeups.
Even if not, and it's just up to interpretation, i'd feel pretty secure calling bullshit on succubi being one of the creatures that applies to instead of just rising up as a wight
>>44141662
At least in my experience, players get way more butthurt about equipment loss than they do about level drain.
>>44141662
As a temporary condition used in a limited fashion by powerful monsters, it's not too bad.
>>44141971
DM's discretion, unfortunately.
>>44142160
Well then I'd call bullshit and try to start up a player's revolt, and frankly if the rest of the players aren't willing to agree with me on getting soulsucked by a succubus does not turn you into a succubus i'm not sure that's a group i want to be part of anything
>>44141662
Level Drain is good because you can let it become permanent and use it to replace levels in a class you don't want with new ones in a class you do.
As well as allowing you to rebuild your character without the PHB2 retraining rules being used, it also allows you to get impossible PrC combinations (by eliminating levels you only took to meet prerequisites) and even allows monstrous characters to remove their RHD and reduce the ECL.
>>44142212
You feel really strongly about the fluff around negative energy and level drain, huh?
>>44142217
That is so muchkin it almost hurts.
>>44142277
Actually my dragonwrought kobold mystic theurge/psychic theurge/cerebremancer needs to get rid of his levels in the base classes that allowed him to qualify for those prestige classes for entirely story-related reasons.
His monstrous cohort's need to get rid of his RHD is also in-character.
>>44142344
>mystic theurge/psychic theurge/cerebremancer
Can that even cast spells?
Don't all of those just buff your EXISTING casting abilities, and not actually give you any of their own?
>>44141662
Ability drain. Even more math than just Level drain.
>DM plot kills your character.
>When party tries to revive you DM says it doesn't work.
> You have to roll up a new character.
>2 sessions later the BBEG revives your dead character as an evil Mary Sue DMpc
> they have me levels then they had, have different feats, better gear, and spells they would never chose to learn.
> they're not undead.
> they're not charmed or mind controlled.
> you have no say in this.
> YFW killed by your old character with the power of edge and DM bullshit.
>>44142376
The function as arcane/divine/psionic casting levels. For example, the first arcane level buff needs a wizard or sorcerer level to add to. But then it's the same as a level in that class, so the original level is unneeded, as subsequent theurge levels can just buff the first one, which is now a functional wizard level.
>>44141662
The worst thing a GM can do is not show up.
>>44142212
>>44142234
Just refluff the succubus' energy drain as infusing you with her succubus essence, if that's what you need for it to make sense that her victims should reanimate as succubi.
>>44142416
I had to look it up because that is bullshit, but is how it is worded. It is pretty clearly not RAI though since the very next like goes "This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has" but that is clarifying text not rules.
I've never seen a DM do negative levels as anything but the last level you gained and let you pick and choose what you drop, let alone drop things that make you no longer qualify for a PrC you are not dropping.
But even if you DM DOES do that you are, at best, A wizard 19, Cleric 11, Psion 10 if you go 10/9/1 MT/C/PT, or even worse, a wizard 15, cleric 15, psion 14 if you go 8/7/7, an, in general, a level 20 caster would still be better.
>>44142234
No, it's just that if the DM is feeling that strongly about succubi level drains, it makes me feel like its a blatant magical realm deal, and i don't see any reason to put up with that
>>44142160
Not really. Since it's not specified, a creature slain by a succubus rises as a wight.
You can play the "A DM can do whatever he wants to do", but you would think that somewhere it would have been mentioned that succubi victims turn into succubi in the lore if that were the case, when it's clearly not the way succubi form their ranks.
>>44142420
I disagree. While a DM who doesn't show up to the game may be bad, a DM who ties you to the table top and saws your dick off with a flensing knife would probably be worse.
>>44142659
>"This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has"
Exactly: 1 level of wiz + 1 level of MT = 2 levels of wiz. Take away the wizard class level, and you still have one level of wizard spellcasting for MT to add to.
>I've never seen a DM do negative levels as anything but the last level you gained and let you pick and choose what you drop, let alone drop things that make you no longer qualify for a PrC you are not dropping.
I don't see these DMs backed up by the rules.
>you are, at best, A wizard 19, Cleric 11, Psion 10
Replace cleric with ur-priest and focus on divine levels for 19th level spell clots at level 20. Replace wizard levels with levels in a PrC with its own arcane spell advancement, since that will probably be better per level than wiz, even if it's not 9th level slots at level 10. Are there any psionic PrCs with their own manifesting advancement?
>>44142779
>Not really. Since it's not specified
Where in the rules does it say "unless specified"?
"Depending" and "may" are the words used regarding rising as the same kind of creature. It does not say unless another creature is specified.
>>44142659
Isn't there some rule on prestige class features not working if you no longer qualify? I guess you might still be able to work around that, but it would at least be a little complicated
>>44142813
And yet this still is not as bad as a DM that reads aloud The Pearl by John Steinbeck while playing.
>>44142852
That's in a splatbook, so even if the DM does rule that it applies to more than just the PrCs in that splatbook, and makes special exceptions for the PrCs that remove their own prerequisites, then all it means is that you can only use the trick in games without that splat.
Further, you can remove the levels that let you qualify without ceasing to qualify. Is you need a certain BAB and spells of a certain level, then simply ensure that you now have enough PrC levels that you won't drop below the required numbers without the levels that let you qualify originally.
>>44142851
>Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise
That's just another way of saying "There's a possibility she will rise, if it's a certain kind of creature."
I know you want to play a silly game of semantics and rules lawyering, but let's have you focus on the second point, shall we?
Undead increase their numbers through level drain, but demons don't. More importantly, what happens to a person who's soul is drained by a succubi is specifically detailed in the succubi description, where the soul is carted down to the abyss.
In short, outside of "My succubi are different", your idea doesn't work.
>>44142826
>I don't see these DMs backed up by the rules.
I don't see your "I pick which level I lose" backed up by the rules either, but I am willing to be proven wrong if you can provide a srd link or a DMG page number.
>>44142826
>>44143145
In fact, I will quote the WotC FAQ archives on the matter
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv06302008.zip
Inside the pdf page 114:
"When a character dies and comes back to life a level lower, are there any guidelines as to which level he must lose? Does it have to be the last level he gained? When he gains a level again later, can he choose a different class than he did originally? What about a 1st-level character (who instead loses a point of Constitution)? Can he begin with a new class completely?
The rules are silent on this issue, but it seems most logical if the character loses the class level he gained most recently. The same is true of any feats, skill ranks, or ability score adjustments gained due to the now-lost level.
The character is under no obligation to make the same selection(s) when he next gains a level with XP."
So, there are absolutely no rules on that either way, either saying you can or can not. Part of the DM's job, is EXPLICITLY to interpret and cover gaps in the rules. The DM is ABSOLUTELY supported by the rules of saying "It's your last level you gained", without even invoking rule 0.
>>44143431
Yeah, all I can find on level drain explicitly is.
>Level Loss
>A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. >Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.
>The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.
As a DM I have always ruled that its the most recent level gained. But there seems to be no official RAW on the matter leaving it up to the individual DM.
>>44141662
>ctl+F "Disj"
>0 returns.
You haven't had angry players until you've shattered millions of GP worth of equipment right in front of them with a single spell.
>>44142217
I'm incorporating this into my campaign's setting.
All gnolls, thri-kreen, and other such creatures make a sacred pilgrimage to a particular temple when they are young. They trade fragments of their life force to the priestly wights residing at this temple to unlock their inner potential.
>>44143591
Doing all the freaking paperwork and saves for each item punishes the GM just as much when that spell is cast though.
>>44143639
It's a will-save for each item, as attended items use the carrier's will-save. Just get an electronic dice roller and ask the player's bonus if it'll take too long, but the anxiety of having to roll five to fifteen D20's with a lot of little, personal investment on the line can be an exciting moment for the player in question too.
Not one they'll be happy about, but exciting none the less.
>>44143705
But then each PCs still have to rework all of their stats for the items they lost. Which always takes forever and a day cause most players don't itemize their bonuses.
>>44143759
That'll teach the little shits.
They have to itemize, because a lot of bonuses don't stack. Not itemizing is a good indicator the little fucks are cheating.
>>44143601
Is the Wight's name Guru?
>>44143759
Wait for the effects to kick in until after the encounter, or after the session. It'll let them feel each and every hit when they have to dismantle the math one step at a time.
>>44143798
Absolutely. And he's a cool guy. He'll give the PC's quests and teach them how to do cool shit.
>>44143932
Then get murdered by an androgynous warlord but his defeated bodyguard imbues his remaining power to the PC so they can defeat the warlord.
>>44143984
Is this an Avatar reference?
I never watched Avatar, but I feel like I ought to.
As a DM, I've had players tell me that everything is "the worst thing a DM can do".
I've heard:
>Traps
>Puzzles
>Mind-control
>Compulsion
>Cursed items
>Railroading
>Too little wealth
>Restricting race and class choices
And a dozen others I can't remember. So, take your pick.
Personally, I think the worst thing a DM can do isallow a player to play a shit character.
>>44144032
Naaaaaaaaail!
This nerd doesn't get the reference.
He also thinks is an unrelated show.
Kick his ass.
>>44144148
Naaaail.
Moot ate my picture.
Kick his ass.
>>44142813
Friend, at that point that's no longer a DM.
>>44144183
You don't know dm's like I do.
>>44144183
I think at that point he's just a different kind of dungeon master
>>44141662
Because you've never been at a table where the DM uses suggestion and dominate to force the players into his magical realm...
>>44144318
But my magical realm is alreadymind control.
a GM could fucking stab you. just shank you in the middle of a game
>puts gun on table
>you die in the game, you die for real
>>44144341
But it wouldn't you being mind controlled, it'd be your character being mind controlled. So technically you'd just be pretending to be mind controlled, instead of having your character really be mind controlled.
>>44144444
Chek'd
>>44144444
>kill a random encounter
>GM has to die
nice quints
>>44144444
Quints confirms this is going to happen to everyone in this thread.
Let's hope the DM didn't stock up on bullets.
>>44141662
Mordenkainen's Disjunction THEN Level Drain.
Disj is banned in the game I DM.
>>44142852
Technically, that's what the other prestige class is for - to keep you qualifying for the class features. Obviously, this requires 3 levels of each of the prestige classes, with 3 more levels to get in in the first place - so you need to ride the worm to at least level 15 before you can become bullshitonium.
>>44143591
Any time I ever get epic spellcasting, the first thing I do is make the entire party immune to that specific spell for the next ten years. Then, we buff.
>>44142398
Did this happen to you? I think you should call a special hotline or something. That's awful.
The worst thing that could happen?
>abusing rule zero
Just think of all do the fucked up things someone can get away with if they just memorized rule zero.
>>44142234
I too would feel pretty strongly about a GM who'd rape the setting's fluff just so he could indulge or help a player indulge in a shitty fetish.
>>44142420
To himself, since the players will take control of the campaign for a session.
Well level drain CAN be avoided if you have a high enough save, but a single 1 on any of those saves results in losing weeks of progress irrevocably.
Also, transformation might not be as bad as level drain since at least transformation doesn't always make you weaker and provides a assload of RP for everyone involved.
>>44142529
>>44148189
It's not like D&D is full of transformation spells and abilities after all :^)
>>44143431
>there are absolutely no rules on that either way
>The DM is ABSOLUTELY supported by the rules
wut
>>44144928
Disjunction is one of those spells that at my table there's sort of a tacit agreement no one uses. If the players don't use it, the DM won't either. Same thing goes for shit like Celerity.
>>44141662
Cancel the game literally fifteen minutes before it's supposed to start.On a regular basis.
FUCK YOU ANDREW I CLEARED OUT MY GODDAMN WEEKEND FOR YOUR SHITTY GAME YOU WORTHLESS CUNT.
