Do characters in your setting always use swords or do they use morning stars or axes. when and why
I usually see morning stars and maces being used by clerics and warrior priests in fantasy settings. The whole "it's okay if I murder people so long as I'm not using a sharp weapon" thing that originated in the crusades seems to be a pretty common trope in fantasy settings.
Maces are common as long as they aren't gimped by the ruleset
>>43829975
wait that is a thing. i just thought it was because a mace is simple to use compared to a sword
>>43829892
Depends on the NPC in question of course, but more often then not no. Swords are generally a status item and realistically very hard to use. A club or spear on the other hand if very simple and doesn't take much training to use effectively, just brute strength and a little hand eye coordination. Most guards in my settings come with a short spear and at most a short sword.
>>43830119
good weapon for bandits basically?
>>43829892
They use whatever they fucking want.
>>43830228
>>43830207
Bandits and anyone else that doesn't have time/money/connections enough to learn more refined fighting styles. Which is basically everyone. And if they live long enough to get good in a fight, they learned it using said simple weapons and so their style is set.
>>43829975
It did not originate in the crusade and is a total factoid.
D&D more or less popularised the idea.
>>43830074
A mace is not simple to use compared to a sword, it's comparatively unbalanced and you need to be fucking swole to wave it around a lot, like most weapons it's not super amateur friendly.
>>43830074
there is a couple of storys about it but they are just tales, d&d is the one who made it a thing
>>43829892
Swords for regular combat. Break out the maces, warhammers and axes when you're expecting to fight heavy armour.
>>43830074
The fact that maces work really well against armor and often leaves live prisoners also helps.
>>43830295
>>43830312
i was wrong, i always though it was just a chunk of metal you hit the enemy with
what kind of maces are there besides morning stars?
>>43829892
It's not a stylistic choice whether or not people in your setting should use them, it's about whether or not they are retarded and what armour tech exists.
Swords are godly against people with little or no armour, but their effectiveness drops off really fast when they start getting some.
As soon as people start wearing mail you need swords with strong stiff points for thrusting, or heavy chopping swords to paste the guy even if you're not actually penetrating the armour, and even then it's a huge waste of energy compared with using an axe or mace for the same thing.
Chainmail is incredibly efficient against slashing weapons and flanged maces and similar became popular while mail armour was still king for that reason.
Swords are very poor choices with the amount of armour people have in most fantasy settings, it's just that most combat and damage systems are pretty shit at modeling that.
Against armour you want a weapon with a lot of mass behind the striking surface because swinging a sword at him is really just going to bruise him, if that.
When mail and shields were still relevant, people started using maces when fighting people in armour.
When plate became common, polearms and warhammers became common because you needed a lot of oomph to make sure the other guy felt it even if you often didn't actually break his armour (you can swing a sword at a guys helmet all day and he'll probably be pretty jarred, but whack him with something like a carpenter hammer and you can actually knock him out in one try without even making much of a dent)
The kind of sword that still saw use was very different from the stereotypical sword.
Pic related is an estoc, a two-handed thrusting sword with absolutely shit cutting capability, meant to be used more or less like a short steel spear, where you put one hand on the hilt and one hand on the "blade" and try to poke the other guy in joints against plate or simply force it through mail.
>>43830549
i am playing an elf rouge who is an angry drunker. should i have him use an estoc or a mace for when we fight knights
>>43830378
One of the most iconic types are the flanged mace (because it has flanges, duh)
Pic related is one example but the specific shape varied enormously even if the general idea was the same. Most of the weight in the head, and lots of force concentrated in a narrow striking surface, so against mail armour you're going to be breaking arms and collar bones or even break the links, and against plate you stand a better chance to actually damage the armour than you do with a sword, which is just going to scratch it.
Keep in mind though that once plate armour started getting really good, these were largely replaced by warhammers for one-handed use (like if you're on a horse) or polearms for use on foot (like poleaxes and similar)
A warhammer doesn't actually crush armour like nothing, they were actually pretty light, just like the maces (less than 4 lbs) but the hammer head could knock a guy out with enough hits to the helmet even if you didn't make much of a dent (helmets were often the thickest piece of the entire armour) and the sharp pick on the reverse side was for penetrating the thinner parts of armour, like the arms.
Once you start counting in two-handed versions though, you actually start getting serious penetration and murderfucking people in armour, which is why knights and men at arms fucking loved poleaxes and similar.
where would you go to learn how to use a mace in real life.
>>43830350
1. maces was rare as fuck in the crusades
2. i was talking about the "maces are priests weapons", that is d&d shit
>>43830074
It's an urban legend so prolific people think it's a fact. There were popes who specialized in crossbows
>>43830766
Baseball
>>43830766
90% of using a weapon is conditioning, so the gym.
>>43830726
If they are any good in your system, give him a pollaxe or similar.
It looks kind of brutish but it can be used with a lot of finesse, tripping, hooking, thrusting with the head or the butt spike, and of course absolutely whaling on the other guy.
Think of them sort of like quarterstaffs with the added functionalities of a short spear and a warhammer.
Pic related is a variant often called a lucerne hammer, but basically, a pollaxe is a pole weapon about the same length as it's user, with either an axe or a hammer head as the "main" weapon, with a spike or hammer head on the reverse, a spike at the top, and a spike on the butt.
It's an absolute terror and gives a skilled fighter so many modes of attack, a common technique seems to have been to lead or feint by jabbing with the butt spike against the face or trying to knock the other guys weapon aside with it, and then following up by just smashing the fuck out of him since you're already holding the weapon above your head, ready for a swing.
>>43830899
Duh, forgot the image.
>>43830914
that will work
>>43829892
My usual loadout for a fighter is a greatsword and longbow on my back, and a billy club and dagger on my belt. My alternative loadout is a round shield on my back, sword on my hip, spear held as a walking stick and a crossbow and sap on my donkey/packhorse. Every fighter should own a blunt weapon, a bladed weapon, and a ranged weapon.
>>43830766
Some kind of historical combat group I would think.
>>43830768
Do you have any kind of sources for them being rare during the crusades? Maces were at the height of their use in Europe after the 12th century, which, you know, means they were around for most of the crusades.
"The crusades" is a really vague and useless term in the context since there were a bunch of them, and they happened over a period of over 400 years.
>>43830971
you are on /tg/, here we only talk about two of then.
I started reading the Blade of the Iron Throne and Riddle of Steel rulebooks and got a major hankering to learn more about medieval combat. Are there any good sources for medieval combat?
I've been watching a bit of scholagladiatoria and Skallagrim (he's an odd but enthusiastic guy). They seem to mostly make sense with what they say about combat back then.
>>43831024
Basically just google "medieval martial arts" or stuff like that, there are surviving "combat manuals" that people have studied a lot, and there is a lot of useful information to find.
Some of the more famous historical examples are the books by Hans Talhoffer, Fiore dei Liberi, Sigmund Ringeck and Joachim Meyer.
Keep in mind though that most of these are from the very end of the "medieval" period, and it's tricky to know how much experience some of the authors had outside teaching bored nobles to duel.
Maybe it's all totally accurate and representative of the way Knights and proffessional soldiers fought, or maybe it's more like the writing of the medieval version of a tennis coach who wants to cash in on some moderate fame.
A lot of it makes sense though so I'd say the information is good.
>>43831024
Try looking up Guy Windsor, he does a lot of recreations of old Fiore stuff, I think he wrote a book specifically about portraying swordsmanship in games and movies recently.
Also try the SoS threads, they're basically weaponized /his/.
It would be cool to have a fantasy adventure game that encouraged you to bring the appropriate weapons for a given fight instead of always using the arms and armour that you've specialized in.
I want to make a fighter and make in game decisions based on reasoning like, we're going to be hiking a long way so heavy armour would be a bad idea, I'll just go with the chain shirt and a nasal helm.
>>43829892
First BBEG coming up in my campaign dual-wields oversized war maces. Party is pure martial. This has TPK written all over it.
>>43830841
I wasn't really aware there were popes who specialized in weapons of any sort. Who were the crossbow ones?
>>43830873
60% of using a weapon is conditioning. 20% of using a weapon is applied psychology and/or experience with other forms of weaponry. And 20% is practice/repetition of combat forms.
The idea is that you have your body ready to use the weapon, you've trained long enough to know how to hit with it to the point it becomes instinctual, and that you know how to fight against other forms of attack/defense.
>>43831229
Just look up some systems where you're not playing superhumans with swords, there are a lot with very detailed rules for weapon and damage types etc.
>>43830119
> just brute strength and a little hand eye coordination
>implying you can't use a mace or spear with finesse
Sword plebs please go
>>43831348
This is an overgeneralization though.
As soon as people start using more and more armour for instance, physical conditioning becomes even more important, because stamina starts being an even bigger deal, and lets face it, you're not going to finesse your way through plate armour.
It's all well and good to try to go for the "weak spots" and stuff like that, but at the end of the day you're massively disadvantaged against an opponent who's taller or stronger than you are even if you possess a greater degree of technical skill.
Pushing people over and whaling on them is a pretty good technique against more or less everything, after all.
I totally agree with what you're saying, of course, but it's important to remember that skill matters the most in situations where you can easily incapacitate your opponent.
Unarmoured guys fighting with swords? Yeah, the guy who's better at fighting with swords obviously has a huge advantage since you know, getting the first hit in might mean ending the fight then and there.
But give them shields and mail and suddenly it might turn into a shoving match and the more skilled guy might be at a disadvantage vs a heavier or stronger opponent even if he's just throwing sword-haymakers.
>>43831229
>I'll just go with the chain shirt and a nasal helm.
keep in mind that mail armour is actually heavier per inch covered than plate armour is.
It's just that you're comparing full body coverage vs a mail shirt or similar.
If you want lightweight armour, look up stuff like pic related.
The links between the armour pieces are called Jack Chains and they're basically a clever way to add even more protection against blows to the extremities without having to add a ton of weight. And of course, way cheaper.
>>43831591
>>43831135
At least a few of them also discuss the grunt end of organized fighting units
why do d8 with a mace
when you could do d10 with a broadsword?
>>43829975
that is bloody ancient, mate
hasn't been that way since 2nd edition ad&d
>>43831667
even in the dark ages, men dreamed of punching things with big metal hands
>>43830119
>Swords are generally a status item
Well, yes and no. It can be, but there was such a massive range of prices for swords. It's kind of like a car, a really nice fancy lamborghini is definitely a show of status, but a shitty beat-up 20-something year old pickup truck isn't. Or for a more period-appropriate comparison, compare munitions plate to a tailor-made, decorated suit of plate. A really fancy, really expensive sword can be a status symbol, but really so can any really fancy, really expensive weapon.
>>43829975
No anon, it was a loophole created by murder-priest in the middle ages.
>>43831968
And also dreamed of not having their fingers cut-off in a fight.
One character is using a very large spiked flail.
>>43831225
Guy Windsor is a fuckin boss. He came from Finland to teach at my HEMA group on the west coast and blew everyone's minds. His mastery and understanding of combat is such that people who'd been practicing twice weekly for 2 years suddenly started moving and fighting as if they'd been practicing for 10.
Seriously, find a legit group and try to reach out. He loves teaching.
>>43831667
Jack chains are some cool shit and it's a shame they're not shown more often. Probably because everyone sees fabric and doesn't understand it's quilted up to 30 layers thick and can stop arrows.
>>43829892
Almost always some form of sword, because in 90% of the systems we play, swords generally deal more damage than maces and usually translates to more armor piercing as well due to the higher damage.
Depends on race and culture. Some use little of any of those.
>Hobgoblin empire
Guns, whips and magnetic batons
>Human/Halfling republic
Militia varies, standard military is mostly sword and board, and archers.
>Sea and Surface Dwarves
These'd be your axe and mace guys. Often double axes and double maces or combinations of those with picks.
>High Elves
Archers and swords
>Duergar
Guerrilla warfare, crossbows, picks, trench spikes. Guns if it's a head on affair.
>>43833062
No one uses spears?
>>43833314
Generally spears have been phased out. Forest Elves, Orcs and tribals tend to use them but they're not the heavy hitters of the setting High Elves have spears on stand by since they're generally useful against human and halfling cavalry.
>>43833392
Wait, whips are used as weapons but spears are phased out...
U wot m8?
>>43833392
>Generally spears have been phased out.
What took its place?
>>43833392
Spears are absurdly versatile and cheap. It was the classic weapon of the peasant militias as almost any farming implement can be converted to a spear and rehafted if broken.
>>43833457
For HobGobs it's cultural. Their generals put all their resources into fielding and training for guns and artillery. Whips are kind of their version of Japanese officers carrying swords.
>>43833515
Ranged weapons in general. Crossbows and guns sprinkled around meant less training and more range.
>>43833560
I also failed to mention the biggest influence. The oldest civilization was the duergar and they impacted humans, hobgobs and dwarves. Since they were often in tight quarters, long weapons like spears weren't really utilized.
>>43833392
>Generally spears have been phased out
Into the trash it goes, this is the dumbest thing I've heard.
A spear lets you use both hands, makes it easy to add your body weight to an attack, or use someone elses weight against them (good against big stuff) and they're obviously the type of weapon with most potential for penetration, which is what tends to kill. You can slash someone up something fierce and he'll live, but one deep stab wound might be all it takes to kill him.
>>43833781
You don't give up all those advantages because of, basically, fashion.
>>43833780
>Ranged weapons in general. Crossbows and guns sprinkled around meant less training and more range.
>whips and magnetic batons
>standard military is mostly sword and board
>These'd be your axe and mace guys
>swords
So ranged weapons have replaced polearms, but not, say, a sword and a shield.
Sword and shield as a primary weapon, by the way, generally was phased out in real life as armor improved and shields became much less useful, and the typical main weapon of choice was usually some variety of polearm.
>>43829892
For my settings maces (and bludgeons in general) are far more common than swords due to ease of use, ease of acquisition, and my own personal preference for club-like weaponry.
Additionally spears are also common in my settings for the same reason as maces.
>>43834326
>Spears
>The most common weapon in history
>More common
Like, do the dogs and cats use them too?
>>43834038
That's what happens dumb people put a lot of thought and effort into worldbuilding.
>People don't use spears, because Duergar. Duergar use guns and crossbows, but apparently the other races didn't mimic that, oh no, they just arbitrarily decided not to use spears.
>>43835801
Well I never said spears were totally out. Militia use war scythes, pitch forks and spears all the time. The biggest armies in the setting just have a standard load out due to influences. When they're out of ammo and doing trench warfare, close weapons are convenient for humans going up against the hobgobs. Dwarves came from a heavy working community directly from Duergar so they just poured their discipline into crafting their tools which eventually became their weapons. I'm aware of all the pros of spears and they exist where they're needed but they simply aren't infantry standard for the setting. Am I being punished for having a meh stance on spears? I'm not even bashing them or anything but it seems everyone has such a ridiculous hard on for them here that I haven't seen anywhere else. Would everyone be happy if I simply corrected my entire setting by saying:
>Everyone
Spears
>>43829975
I thought it was because maces could be used as a non-lethal weapon if you aimed for the limbs rather than head and torso, while bladed weapons are ubiquitously lethal.
>>43830726
The chinese estoc was considered a blunt weapon and used as such.
So you can actually have it all.
>>43831135
>>43831024
I'm no expert and pretty much self taught since western medieval swordsmanship isn't a thing in my country.
I found Talhoffer's and Meyer's to be a good fit for me. Also check out interpretations and other videos. Once you've found one of the old fencing masters you like, it wouldn't be difficult to look for other resources ie. interpretations and such.
>>43838179
To add, it might prove difficult to find someone to practice grappling against.
>>43838194
>>43838179
Oh I'm not looking to actually practice. It's just really interesting, especially as a contrast to the "European combat was just people bashing each other with blunt swords" trope that gets around when actually it seems extremely nuanced.
>>43837042
My main gripe is dividing weapons by race/culture.
It's the sort of thing you do in a videogame or movie to set different factions apart visually, but it makes absolutely no sense from a world building perspective.
Realistically, everyone is going to use the most effective weapon they can afford, that makes sense for the kind of things they're going to use them for and the opponents they'll fight.
If you want to dial down the dumb, think more about how everyone's versions of the weapons look, because culturally influenced aesthetics are a real thing, but having a whole people more or less ignore a weapon just to make them stand out from the rest is stupid, simple as that.
Videogames and rpgs have given people this silly idea that all weapons and armours exist alongside each other and that it's a matter of culture or preference what you use, but weapons and armour tech drive each other, and in a setting where plate armour is commonly available, as an example, swords and shields are going to fall out of popularity in favour of pole-arms simply because the added protection of the shield is not worth the tradeoff in hitting power. That's just logic, and tossing it out so that the humans will look different from the elves is kind of silly.
