>mfw I see somebody who thinks Warhammer 40k contains any original ideas
>mfw these plebs don't read
>mfw someone says Warhammer 40k has tactics
>mfw someone says Warhammer 40k isn't 100% about army composition
>mfw someone says Warhammer 40k is balanced
>>43815194
The Rak'Gol seem rather original
I will say that 40k has become less tolerable since GW ran out of "raised on Dune" people and started having to hire "raised on 40k" people.
>>43815256
It's a shame there aren't really any super good, new Space Opera's coming out nowadays for GW to steal from.
>>43815248
Eh, it has tactics. Remember Orks have pulled tourney wins against fucking Eldar.
Although then again, that could have just been dice.
>>43815285
>that could have just been dice
Probably was, since Orks use so many of them.
>>43815304
Or they probably used the green wave, which has a shitload of scoring troops whereas the Eldar players spam titans.
>>43815273
Only three stories in the history of the universe, friend.
>>43815273
What?
>>43815348
What?
>>43815367
I meant in terms of lit.
Also TFA doesn't look super original, and Star Wars is just as derivative as 40k.
>mfw someone complains about "originality"
Trying to come up with something totally original just for the sake of being original is idiotic. The 40k setting is derived from multiple different ideas, stories, and experiences, just like everything else in the world. Try to find one story that doesn't draw any ideas from any other piece of fiction.
>>43815367
>good
>>43815248
No one says any of those things.
>>43815396
The Epic of Gilgamesh.
>>43815386
Do you even Golden Bough, bro?
>>43815396
I understand that but I'm directing this at the people who think 40k is some super original masterpiece Sci-Fi setting.
>>43815410
I was about to mention that.
Gilgameshmind
>>43815433
I don't really think there are people like that, apart from 12 year olds and GW employees?
>>43815273
>>super good
>>Dune
Go to bed, Brian. You're drunk.
>>43815253
I too enjoy the Rak'Gol, though I've no real idea if they're 'original' or not.
Goodness, imagine Space Hulk game DLC where you had to survive against these tender mother lovers instead of genestealers.
>>43815480
>Dune
>One of the most highly regarded works in Science fiction and one of the few books in the genre that's transcending the label and being considered a work of literature
>not good
>>43815410
>Implying Gilgamesh doesn't rip a bunch of shit from contemporary religious myths + oral traditions that didn't survive into modern times
>>43815459
There are plenty of them. Usually claiming something along the lines of "40k is so novel because it paints a setting where the future isn't super optimistic" or some shit.
>>43815555
Yeah, starting by gay sex and furries
>>43815616
Not to mention the "x is literally 40k: the movie" threads
>>43815256
I...that's actually downright insightful.
>>43815524
>dune
>good
Confirmed for not having read the book. It's awful. It reads like a screenplay for the worst Mexican soap opera ever.
>highly regarded
So is millionaire, best-selling author Dan Brown, and he's never written anything good in his entire career.
>>43817033
Wow, what a thorough review. Sure you didn't also want to post a picture of you pissing on a copy? It'd really nail your salient point hom.e
Is this thread cancer ?
>>43817033
>So is millionaire, best-selling author Dan Brown, and he's never written anything good in his entire career.
Genuine literary critics dont.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume you read Rothfuss and Sanderson
>>43815194
>mfw people say Mad Max copied Orks
>>43815480
You're a faggot who probably only read dune last year.
It was the first "complete" science fiction setting, with in depth history and lore. You can't knock that. If your reading comprehension isn't good enough to stomach it, thats your own fault.
>>43815616
That may have been true at one point. I think one nowadays that separates 40k is that, for the Imperium at least, it isn't concerned with going with a sleek aesthetic like a lot of other sci-fi seems to.
>>43816575
Not really, it's not out of the realm of possibility that you'll find scraps here or there that indicate how a certain person currently working at GW or who used to work for them found out about Warhammer. Ward for example clearly says on his blog how he started playing with Fantasy.
Did Dune have cathedrals in space? I honestly forget.
>>43815248
>mfw someone says Warhammer 40k is balanced
You're making shit up
>>43815194
Can we have a 1d4chan page that contains all the influences for 40k? so newbie anons can read the good stuff?
>>43815194
>mfw these plebs actually read the Dune
I bet you like the Foundation too.
But seriously, yes, Warhammer 40,000 mostly just takes ideas from other fantasy and science fiction and puts them into a same galaxy. Star Wars does it too, and I like them both.
>>43820027
>I bet you like the Foundation too.
Yes but I prefer the Robots.
>>43815194
40k has servo-skulls.
Checkmate atheists
>>43819998
That would require someone to make it Anon.
>>43815248
>mfw people say 40k doesn't have tactics
It's funny, since the only people who say this are the bad players too stupid to notice the more complex, hidden tactics.
>ignoring squad bodyguards
>sniping specific units without sniper rule
>only taking one casualty maximum from overwatch
>how to successfully charge a unit over 36" away with a 6" move model
Bet you don't know how to do any of these things, since the rulebook doesn't tell you how.
>>43820328
Teach me, master.
>>43820328
>It's funny, since the only people who say this have played non GW games where tabletop tactics actually influence the outcome of the battle.
WHBF has tactics. Maneuvering matters, facings matter, distance matters.
40k Does not have tactics (beyond building a hard list and guessing what your enemy will take based on the army they use)
You bring your forces in range, you shoot. The enemy brings their forces in range, they shoot.
Sometimes people get to close combat, then they attack.
The hard list wears down the weaker list, the overpowered codex envelops the older codex. No amount of tactics can change that. only luck.
If you had played games that aren't 40k, you wouldn't be arguing that its tactical. It only has the most basic "tactics" of staying in range and target selection. Maneuvering has little to no value.
Do me a favor and play some WHFB of Kings Of War (highly tactical) or some historical games, then you'll see what tactics really are.
I've played 40k for over 20 years, trust me I can judge it compared to other games.
>>43820337
Look up the ability called Focus Fire. This lets you target different sections of an enemy squad depending on their cover save value. You can always provide your own cover save to the enemy by moving one of your own squads in between the units, then call out focus fire on the "no cover save" portion of the enemy.
To snipe a unit without the sniper rule, simply use a building and a vehicle, or two vehicles and park them almost touching. Create such a small gap that your squad can only see a single enemy model behind the gap. All shots from the squad that can see must deal wounds to that target, because the rest of the enemy squad is out of line of sight.
To negate overwatch, simply charge with another squad. If you don't want to sacrifice another squad to overwatch, simply declare a charge with only one single model within line of sight. This spotter model will die in overwatch, but the rest of the squad will charge the enemy from behind the corner and be out of line of sight in the overwatch phase.
To make impossibly far combats, simply conga line your squads, and attach your slow ICs to a faster squad. While the slow IC may not actually be swinging in combat or base to base, the fact that his squad has entered combat means he may not be shot at since he is also in combat, even if he's extremely far away from the enemy. In the rulebook this is called "locked in combat".
Next time someone says 40k is "easy" or "simple", laugh at them, because they are bad.
>>43820396
>Bet you don't know how to do any of these things, since the rulebook doesn't tell you how.
You shouldn't call 40k tactically shallow when you've barely even scratched its surface in 20 years. You think you're some genius general because you play fantasy systems, but all your post shows me is you can't figure out actual tactics and have to follow a guidebook.
>>43820409
well have you played any games that aren't 40K?
do you have anything to compare it to?
if not, please discontinue to argue that its tactical.
>>43820399
So what you're saying is, 40k can be a tactical game if you abuse loopholes in the rules to create unrealistic situations?
>>43820433
Just because something is less tactical doesn't mean it's not tactical at all.
>have you played any games that aren't 40K?
Do you realize how stupid that makes you look? It's not like 40K is the only game in existence. Probably 99.9% of 40K players have played other games.
Just because you have to pivot your blocks in WHFB doesn't make you a chess champion compared to actual good 40K players.
So instead of asking stupid questions like "do you even play any other game" how about you answer the question, "DID YOU EVEN KNOW HOW TO PERFORM ANY ADVANCED 40K MANEUVERS BEFORE YOU TALKED SHIT?" No? Then why are you talking, when you're such trash?
>>43816575
It's a pretty common problem for long running franchises.
>>43820438
>hur dur it's not tactical
>hur dur rules abuse
It's in the rules, it's legal, what's the problem?
You might as well claim that Dwarfs spamming cannons is abuse and they should take a "balanced" list that uses more "movement tactics". You don't get to make up arbitrary labels.
>>43820438
>rules abuse
Most of those rules are straight up in the rulebook, you just have to figure out how to use them well.
>unrealistic situations
So hiding out of line of sight in a game that uses true line of sight and a cover system is unrealistic? You realize 40k in general is a mish mash of unrealistic situations. Chainsaw swords being waved around in space by jet engine wearing superhumans who eat brains to absorb memories.
>>43820433
>i don't even know how to play 40k good but i'll say it isn't tactical
/tg/ could use less braindead bandwagoning anti-GW sheep.
>>43820446
You can assume I know nothing about tactics, or you can look at 40k itself and see the severe lack of tactics compared to other games.
40k is a game of listing. You can use all the "tactics" you like, the best list is always going to grind down the lesser list. You may be able to do tactics in 40k, but they have no outcome on the battle, only the list and codex have that effect.
When you have 2 opposing armies and the battle is lost before it even begins (due to imbalance in the codex system and not playtesting all the armies together) tactics no longer matter.
This is why I say 40k isn't tactical, partially because maneuvers mean very little beyond bringing your weapons in range, and partly because the composition of the two lists determines the outcome of a battle before the first turn has even started.
Do yourself a favor and play any balanced game where tactics decide the outcome of the battle, not "having the latest codex"
>>43820477
I've played 40k for over 20 years, friend. I can judge it as harshly as I like. It because I've played games where tactics determine the outcome of the battle that I can say 40k isn't tactical. WHFB is tactical. Excellent game (up until about 6th edition). I'm not anti-GW, I just know there's more to wargaming that out-listing someone. Composition should only be about 50% of a victory at maximum. tactics should be a large part of a commanders success. if it isn't, its a poor quality wargame.
>>43820456
The problem is that the rules are bad if you have to set up finicky and unrealistic situations. A better system would make the tactical possibilities obvious to players without making them read the letter of the rules carefully to realize they might get a slight advantage if they do stupid shit like put their models in conga lines across the battlefield, or block line of sight with vehicles to snipe enemy commanders.
See: WHFB, Kings of War
>>43820462
Chainsaw swords and superhumans are a part of the 40k universe and fit its aestethic. The stupid loopholes that are apparently the height of 40k tactics do not.
"Quick battlebrothers! Form a conga line across the battlefield with the Librarian at the back! This will prevent the enemy from firing upon him!"
"Park the two Rhinos next to each other, with just a few feet of space between them! Behold, brothers! The Ork Warboss is the only enemy visible between them, so we can concentrate fire upon him!"
>>43819998
>>43820136
Let's do it then. I have little to contribute, but could start. I might be wrong with references, but good anon can fix that.
Starship troopers. Space marine armor have simmilar idea for armor that used like second skin.
Dune. Special mutants needs to interstellar travels. Serios AI had been banned after war with them. Neofeodalism.
God-emperor are most powerfull psionic in known galaxy. He has cult, where most fanatic women become holy warriors.
40k Tactics:
>Park 2 tanks 2" away from each other. blocking an attack route
>Other player tries to move troops through the gap
>Sorry anon, you can't come within 1" of my units, so there's no way your units can move through this gap
such realism, so tactic, much battel.
>>43815304
The more dice the more the overall score averages out.
>>43815253
Well, the references to their ships leaking radiation reminds me of the first encounter with Reavers in Firefly, and critters with the same name show up in Star Wars, but other than that, yeah Rak'Gol are awesome.
>>43815194
>original ideas
few and far between, chief.
>>43819952
They had the vegetable emperor, psykers, hate on silicons (because of a machine uprising that threw them back centuries)
>>43821014
The Butlerian Jihad wasn't originally a machine uprising, but a crusade against humanities reliance on thinking machines. It didnt become DUDE ROBOTS LMAO until the Brian Herbert books.
>actually buying genuine Goyims Rabbinshop' models
>>43815194
I think you will find this lesson quite illuminating, my friend.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQHaGhC7C2E
>>43820514
If you need a "fair and balanced" game to have tactics, it just shows you don't understand tactics.
A weaker force can beat a stronger force by - tactics, maneuvering, and strategy.
This "balance" you speak of is impossible for a game like 40k. This you would know if you'd been paying attention for 20 years.
The best players of 40k win using the "weakest codexes" all the time.
>>43820971
They predate Firefly, fag
>>43821014
As anon said, the Butlerian Jihad was a cataclysmic war of ideas. While I'm sure there was physical conflict, it's never discussed by Herbert in the original novels as one that resulted in widespread bloodshed.
>>43815194
>mfw some retard on the internet thinks he isnt a pleb because he's recognized 40k as sci-fi pulp
>>43819998
That would require 1d4chan to be not a complete hunk of self-fellating garbage
>>43820328
Focus fire isn't a thing in 7th ed, you still hit commander irridium armour no matter what cover save he has.
>>43822469
>best players of 40k win using the "weakest codexes" all the time
Though there is some truth in this, the latest editions formations and unprecedented power gaps have all but removed strategy and tactics. If you're playing the new hotness, games are won and lost on paper.
>>43822543
There were never any to begin with. At least not from early 4th on, which is all I can comment on. I've been playing some other wargames and skirmishes lately and it's jarring just how shallow the gameplay of WH(40k) is.
>>43822543
Any examples? Tell me please what this new hotness is.
is it tactics if i've thought about moves of a single squad for 5 minutes to minimize the coming enemy close combat attacks and that they can't touch my leader?
is it tactics to include cheap and fast units that can fly to the enemy backline and make them focus their fire on them or escort/tank shock enemies away from the battle?
is it tactics to rely on the enemy's inability to think creatively about combos, traps and baits you can pull off much to their surprise?
is it tactics to play for the objectives instead of raw damage if you can't beat your opponent otherwise?
>>43822668
>Tell me please what this new hotness is
Wraithhosts, Optimized Stealth Cadres, Necron Decurions, Free obsec units, War Convocations, 5 Flyrants @ 1850, etc, etc.....etc.
>>43822776
>But I put my army on the table, rolled some >dice and moved around without thinking, and >won some games... therefore there must be >no tactics!
This anon gets it.
>40k is all about lists
>40k is all about luck
>>43822812
Which one is the auto win that proves there are "no tactics" in the game.
Or are you saying if you play one of these lists it's random who wins?
>>43822776
is it tactics if I automatically ignore Gets Hot! and get ~500 points in free upgrades?
is it tactics if my suits automatically target rear armor
is it tactics if I can no scatter deep strike 5 strength D flamer templates?
nigger please. there is minimal decision making (that matters) involved in 40k once the game starts.. none if you play Tau. Arguing this point is for the mentally challenged, and saddies.
>>43822817
the fucking pain when you gotta hurry and feel guilty of spending too much time thinking about your move phase or shooting order especially in a tournament game when you have to try to bend everything in your favor
>>43822842
Unrelated. These are special rules. Yes there are special rules.
Now show how there are no tactics.
>>43822842
Ohh, I do play tau. And have a new hotness Y'vahra.
So tell, when do I charge my Y'vahra into effective range (close)? Does it matter when?
Does it matter where I deploy it? O do I just plunk it right down in the middle for auto win?
>>43822842
No, what you do with those units is tactics. No scatter deep strike D flamers is a no brainer if they're running a deathstar, if they're MSU where you put them is pretty damn important.
"it's cheese if it counters my cheese!" -/tg/
>>43822853
You're not allowed to think multiple turns ahead - that would be tactics.
>>43820585
Sooooo, just gonna point out your autism on vehicles. Real life militaries use armored vehicles in cover formations like that today with priority target usually being seen in center gap where your best shots are so that they can shoot them. So Yeah. its kinda a thing. And fairly tactically sound. Just saying.
Since we have pretensions of literacy in this thread, who do you think would win, the empire of the Foundation series at its height, or the Imperium?
>>43822776
>is it tactics if i've thought about moves of a single squad for 5 minutes to minimize the coming enemy close combat attacks and that they can't touch my leader?
No, that is called "being special". There is no reason to agonize that much over model positioning in this game. It just has very little impact compared to other, better games.
>is it tactics to include cheap and fast units that can fly to the enemy backline and make them focus their fire on them or escort/tank shock enemies away from the battle?
If they're cheap because they're undercosted that's called "not being a retard at list building". If they're cheap because they're bad that's called "being a retard at list building". Units only have one role in Wh(40k): Killing other units. Might aswell take the best bang for your buck.
>is it tactics to rely on the enemy's inability to think creatively about combos, traps and baits you can pull off much to their surprise?
No, that's called "playing against absolute retards".
>is it tactics to play for the objectives instead of raw damage if you can't beat your opponent otherwise?
There is no opportunity cost attached to it. Not playing for objectives is pretty dumb.
All in all, WH(40k) has such a low skill ceiling, anyone with half a brain will hit their shins on it trying to get into the game.
>>43822837
Bad balance != no tactics.
Good balance != lots of tactics.
>>43823044
>Units only have one role in Wh(40k): Killing other units
You are very bad at the game.
>>43823044
Model positioning has everything to do with this game. This is what you don't get.
You named Kings of War as a "better game" than 40k. You automatically lose this argument.
>>43822995
HPLD from the Cyberiad becouse fuck you western swine.
>>43820627
The other obvious one is Asmov's Foundation series which has the crumbling galactic empire of humanity, reestablishing contact with feral worlds when communication breaks down across the empire, the machine cult, rogue traders, feudalism in over worlds and planetary governors, enslaver tier psychic monstrosities, and a bunch of other shit.
>>43823087
>You named Kings of War as a "better game" than 40k.
I did not. Learn to differentiate writing styles. Also, "losing" is a funny term in this case, as you're the retard still playing WH40k.
Positioning helps, no doubt. Compared to other games it's incredibly shallow though. There's not really that much you can do with it.
>>43823044
>No, that is called "being special". There is no reason to agonize that much over model positioning in this game. It just has very little impact compared to other, better games.
not sure if you've played the game enough to understand that some moves are really crucial. did you consider my example? a squad of hormagaunts was charging my farseer+dire avengers and i had to block the farseer so that he wouldn't get into b2b contact
>If they're cheap because they're undercosted that's called "not being a retard at list building". If they're cheap because they're bad that's called "being a retard at list building". Units only have one role in Wh(40k): Killing other units. Might aswell take the best bang for your buck.
i didn't say undercosted. piranhas and speeders are rather cheap units. even rhinos too when they've delivered their cargo. in this example the enemy dark angels flat outted a speeder into my backline and broke my ld8 grey hunters and drove them off the board. i've also seen a friend tank shock many many squads off an objective and off the table with an empty rhino.
>No, that's called "playing against absolute retards".
it is very hard to see beforehand how the game is going to unfold. for example, you prepare like 2 missile launchers against an enemy dark eldar raider but they fail. this enables the enemy to tank shock one of your squads with it and drive another raider close to disembark a couple liquifiers to kill your precious squad now that they are in a template formation. he had planned that tactic from the start and hoped you wouldn't focus fire on that raider.
>There is no opportunity cost attached to it. Not playing for objectives is pretty dumb.
there's plenty of cost. it's the fast, fragile vehicles that can truly ruin your day
>>43823085
Oh I am sorry for omitting your precious transport vehicles. Aside from that the worth of a model is just a function of raw damage output and raw survivability, with speed also playing a role. That's it.
>>43823137
>not sure if you've played the game enough to understand that some moves are really crucial. did you consider my example?
Yes, I too have committed these masterful strokes of brilliant tactics. Of course with differring levels of success depending on edition and current retardation of the ruleset. But if that is the height of strategic positioning in this game, that's one low height.
>>43823137
>[...]but they fail[...]he planned that tactic from the start[...]
Yeah you can do some really magical stuff in most games if your opponent rolls like shit. 40k is really forgiving though. It's incredibly easy to position for redundancy.
>>43823137
>there's plenty of cost. it's the fast, fragile vehicles that can truly ruin your day
They're fragile.
>>43822469
>The best players of 40k win using the "weakest codexes" all the time.
no they dont. They pull a draw if they're lucky. You dont win tournaments with a weak list or a weak codex. Thats a fact. How many tournaments have you played in?
>>43820881
>names a tactic
>says it's not a tactic
You're complaining about less than 2 inches. The models have a width, so any gap smaller than their width would have also blocked their path.
>>43826089
That's like calling "rolling to hit" a tactic.
>>43820399
No focus fire in 7th Anon.
>>43815256
This.
It's particularly true for Warhammer Fantasy. It used to be made by historical reenactors/wargamers. All the cool bits of fluff, often based on real-world history, are gone. Lost, like tears in the rain.
>>43826525
Blocking maneuvers are tactics you find even in chess and pro sports.
What you should be complaining about is how that dumb 1" rule means your tanks can vaporize enemies by rolling over them because they would have gotten out of the way, but there was an enemy there so they couldn't.
If I saw a fucking tank about to roll over me, I don't care if there's a bunch of enemies with bayonets over there, I'll fucking jump in there gladly. Or allow units to jump on tanks/grapple/cling to them.
>>43826734
I'm not that guy though. But that's one of the problems with 40k. Now and again it tries being "realistic". That's poison for any game.
>>43820627
>>43823104
A lot of the obscure Latin and Greek terms used in 40k were probably taken directly from BOTNS.
>>43820948
The more dice, the more room for potential numerical flux.
>>43827625
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers
>mfw baddies get schooled at 40k
>hur do you even play real wargames
>it's all the dice
>those aren't tactics
wow
>>43815194
Does anything contain truly original ideas? Its like asking if a word contains original letters. Everything is just bits and pieces of previous things combined in new ways
>>43829706
It don't matter. None of this matters.
Some group of humorless faggots picketed a theater in my area because they had adjudged the business "bad" for offering salty popcorn, frosty beverages and sweet, sweet boxed candies. The owner told curious reporters that he wasn't running a Health Food store, and that his customers bought his stocks because THEY TASTE GOOD.
This is the same principle evident in the OP: 40k isn't literature, so judging 40k on literary merits is the act of a lazy troll with too much time on its hands.
Here's your 110th reply.
>>43830782
Baneblade book was cool and moody.
Dune is one of those strange books that somehow manage to drink directly from the stuff that makes myth.
It has so many cool elements and great world building and is a great seed book that everyone ripped off from. The sequels are okay but only the first left a big impression on me, almost on the same level of Jules Verne or Tolkien.
You can tell Frank knew his classics like the Iliad etc.
In any case 40k is simple mindless fun not Jose Saramago literature.
>>43830782
>It don't matter. None of this matters.
>>43815314
10 units of boys in a single squad isnt exactly good at scoring anything
>>43831322
>Dune is one of those strange books that somehow manage to drink directly from the stuff that makes myth.
Agreed with you there, the first time I read Dune in High School it blew my mind. It instantly replaced Star Wars (inb4 pleb) as my favorite scifi universe.
Never read the sequels, although the Fish Speakers, Duncan Idaho gholas, and the worm-Emperor all sound pretty cool
>>43831322
>In any case 40k is simple mindless fun not Jose Saramago literature.
This is honestly one of my favorite aspects of 40k. Sure it has very little originality in it, but it wears its inspirations on its sleeve, and has fun with it.
Like how Trazyn is an obvious Dr.Doom clone with kleptomania thrown in. Is it original? No it isn't, but that doesn't stop the character from being interesting and beloved in his own right.
Though since this discussion is largely centered on the derisive nature of 40k, is there anything you guys consider something original that 40k made?
>>43815194
If you look at 1st edition I think it had a very original 80s style sci-fi feel to it.
If you think Herbert's shit is original, then 40k's equally as original. If you read Herbert's shit, it's very obvious how many of the ideas come from various mythologies. But he present them in a new way. Same with 40k. Or at least when it first came out, it was (and still is sorta) a really cool mix of Judge Dredd style cyberpunk with Star Wars style space opera with Dune/Starship Troopers style hard sci fi. Even today probably I still think that 40k is the best at pulling off a sci fi universe with a heavy metal panache to it making it stylish.
>>43834458
>Dune/Starship Troopers style hard sci fi.
>Either of those
>Hard Sci-Fi
Confirmed for not knowing what the fuck hes talking about
>>43834368
I cant think of anything, it picks other stuff and pumps it up to eleven, half the time it works the other half looks silly.
When it works you cant tell 40k needs some good execution to work.
>>43834458
So you are saying Herbert was inspired by mythology and geopolitics\religion directly and try to hold 40k to the same level?
Is there the same effort in 40k ? Fuck no. Warn me when an Eldar Warlock starts a journal like Leto II.
Look I like both but I am sure as fuck that if it wasnt for Tolkien and Dune 40k would look way fucking different. It would probably be more sword and sorcery who the fuck knows.
Btw Dune was also an inspiration for George Lucas.
>>43822825
compared to almost any other tabletop game, this is the case.
People who have only played 40k dont actually understand what real tactics are, and why they change the outcome of a battle.
>>43826089
Its more the rules getting in the way of what would realistically happen.
Of course a humanoid could fit between two tanks parked 2" apart. But noooo 40k has a magical 1" force field that units can't come within that stops a perfectly logical move from even being made.
if anything, 40k hinders tactics with rules like this.
>>43829609
I actually raped most armies at 40k, I was very successful. The main "tactics" of 40k are building a solid list and being able to use that list effectively against a wide variety of opponents. At least that's what you need to succeed at a tournament. You have played at tournaments right?
Now that I've played games where tactics actually have an outcome on the battle, I understand how childish 40k is. Its a mediocre game shrouded in fluff and ruined by unbalanced codexes and a severe lack of playtesting.
Real games make all the army lists at the conception of the game, and playtest them all together so its balanced. Releasing new codexes is a great way to make more money from your target demographic, but it makes for very poor overall balance, to the point where any tactics you use on the battlefield amount to nothing in the face of a stronger codex.
I hope all you guys who are arguing for 40k being tactical have played games like WHFB, or kings of war, or any historical game. Because if you haven't, you have no grounds for claiming is 40k "tactical"
Personally I moved on from GW games years ago, you get a lot more out of a game when you know its balanced and the decisions you make on the tabletop are the only things that will effect the outcome of the battle. It makes for closer, more interesting games that are much harder to play, and require much more skill.
>>43834573
You're fucking retarded if you don't think Starship Troopers isn't hard sci fi. Dune walks the line, but Starship Troopers is definitely hard sci fi.
>>43834581
>Is there the same effort in 40k ? Fuck no.
There is, but a different kind of effort. A lot of effort was put into 40k to give it a very stylish unique feel to it. A lot of effort went into 40k in that unlike these other sci fi universes, 40k's way of critiquing authoritarianism is through parodying it. That's what made it unique among other sci fi places. The concept of parodying has kinda been lost over the past few years due to an increased emphasis on "look at how grimdark we are!" But still, the parodying is what made 40k original because hard sci fi and then cyberpunk like Philip K Dick and William Gibson stuff was all meant to be taken super seriously. Same with space opera like Star Wars. It may not put a lot of effort into writing crazy multi layered narrative, but it was a master at parodying.
>>43834633
>The main "tactics" of 40k are building a solid list and being able to use that list effectively against a wide variety of opponents. At least that's what you need to succeed at a tournament. You have played at tournaments right?
Big talk from someone who doesn't even know the difference between strategy and tactics.
>>43835138
Parody aspect was too mostly taken from british comic books like Judge Dredd.
>>43837241
It took it from a level entirely different from Dredd though hitting not only just cyberpunk but all of sci-fi.
Every idea you ever had have already been thought of.
Most good ideas have been exploited at least once in each mainstream media (ie books, tv, film, etc).
Even most of the bad ideas have also been exploited.
Most books you read don't have original ideas because they are inspired by or just resemble something already existing.
Get off your high horse, even the ideas, scenarios and thoughts you come up with are merely an unconscious plagiarism or a shallow remix/sample.
>>43835601
> doesn't even know the difference between strategy and tactics.
where did you garner that from? I guarantee if your reading comprehension was up to scratch, you see I never mixed those two up. I dont think I've even used the word Strategy in this thread.
40k Doesn't even consider strategy.
tactics in 40k dont really matter due to the battle being decided in the army composition phase. before the first turn even starts.
40k doesn't even address strategy in the standard rule books. There are no strategic maps where you can move your forces around and whenever they meet on the map, you play out a tabletop battle with the specific points on each side.
If 40k did make use of stragegy (and I'm sure there's some supplement where they attempt to do so) It would greatly improve the experience.
Having a strategic element to a wargame makes it all the more real. Instead of "Welp, I've lost this game", you'll be thinking "Ok, I'm severely outnumbered in this battle, but if I can bloody the enemy assault, doing maximum damage and preventing him from capturing the objectives, then next campaign turn my 2 armies waiting 1 days march away can smash this enemy force to a bloody pulp!"
Another place where 40k is lacking. No map campaigns. No Strategy.
Tactics mean nothing, no strategy, expensive, built in obsolescence, poorly balanced.
Literally the only good thing about 40k is the artwork, the fluff (before 6th edition) and the fact that it gets a lot of teenagers into wargaming.
Unfortunately those teenagers then think they know what tactics are based on what they've played in 40k. Its just not a good example of what tactics really are.
Most 40k players dont even know the joy of a 4 player map campaign that lasts for a month or games nights. Some of the most fun you can have in wargaming, when you combine strategy and tactics in a well made, balanced game system.
>>43815194
Whilst we're at it A Song of Ice and Fire is a load of overly long, bloated shit too.
>>43837661
>*Tips fedora*
Not that I don't agree, but your post reeeeeks of typical hip rebel behaviour of always disagreeing with the general consensus and you need everyone to see how rad you are for doing it.
>>43815194
>>43815248
>2015
>Still giving GW money so that you can beat the other social recluses until GW updates its army list to make your cheese obsolete and make you buy more
>Only the dead can know peace from the ISHYGDDT
>>43838531
>Only the dead can know peace from the ISHYGDDT
Or people with taste.
>>43837403
I disagree
>>43815194
>Thinking Dune contains original ideas.
>Not reading Golden Age sf outside the "classics".
>>43818041
First =/= Good
>>43815428
No we don't because it's "shitty metodology and untenable conclusions: an extensive how-to book".
Perhaps You should read something worthwhile instead of showing off a "culture" that's just smoke and mirrors.
>>43838531
>>NOT EVEN the dead can know peace from this ISHYGDDT
FTFY
>>43837403
>Having to have a book hand hold you
I dunno about most of you faggots but we've only ever ran campaign games in my group. I'm not saying 40k is a strategic game but by the same token if you don't try and incorporate those elements you won't ever see them.Just because you're too lazy to draw up a map doesn't mean the rest of us are.
