What TTRPG game, IN YOUR OPINION, does guns best and why?
What does it the worst and why?
For your consideration, guns.
>>43717892
Bump.
>>43718321G
U
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>>43718395
Okay.
Why?
>>43717892
most realistic? phoenix command, no doubt.if you want more realism, buy simunitons and find some friends.
best gunfighting play? T2k is great for .mil stuff, while I rather enjoy rules'd up GURPS for civvy gunfighting.
worst is probably fucking WW. though d20 modern is pretty fucking bad, too
>>43718439
>most realistic?
Just the best all around, I suppose.
>>43717892
D20 does it best.
>>43718470
>d20 Does it best
..there are more than one D20 Based game that has guns, you know.
Be more specific.
>>43718407
The gunplay-oriented books (mostly Tactical Shooting and Gun-Fu) are all about analyzing how actual firearms affect combat, and how to translate that into rules. They're written by people who have a familiarity with firearms, and give myriad options not just for customizing individual guns, but for GMs to choose what kind of rules they want to use to model guns. Want an over-the-top 80s action movie feel? Then use one set of optional rules. Want a realistic, tactical feel where one bullet will ruin your whole week? Then use a different set of optional rules.
Mongoose Traveller.
One shot from a handgun will, on average, cripple and incapacitate an unarmored human, and death is entirely possible.
Basic attack is a 2d6 roll. Autofire gives you extra sets of 2d6 whose results can be combined as desired.
Dodging just applies an immediate, flat penalty to your initiative and your opponent's attack.
Overall, who shoots first, shoots last. It's simple, quick, and terrifyingly brutal. At least in my group's gritty, low power street games.
>>43718505
>The gunplay-oriented books (mostly Tactical Shooting and Gun-Fu) are all about analyzing how actual firearms affect combat, and how to translate that into rules.
This is a good reason, but when I read these books, I felt a lot of what they said really transcended GURPS. Anyone competent enough could take what they wrote and add it to really any system.
>>43718520
>One shot from a handgun will, on average, cripple and incapacitate an unarmored human, and death is entirely possible.
...any handgun? That..that doesn't seem correct.
I'd go with Call of Cthulhu/Basic Roleplaying. Anything simple and relatively lethal. Fill in the rest with descriptions and some real world knowledge, rather than trying to squeeze detailed ballistics simulation out of a game played with pencil and paper.
I think high intensity simulation is overrated...
>modelling the difference between a delta force veteran and a guy who isn't sure how to load the damn thing
cool
>modelling the difference between 9mm and fuddy fahv
Boring and pointless; RPGs can't support that fine of resolution. It's like the page spread of different polearms in D&D... might be more or less factual, but doesn't simulate the chaos and adrenaline of a gun battle.
I like the 40k RPGs gun mechanics.
Here's why. The mechanics for it are simple and straightforward, and the weapons themselves are competitive (most of the time) with high-powered melee options people can use.
Plus it lets me feel like a fake /k/ommando who can trick out this fancy laser gun like a motherfucker.
>>43718557
There are some low power ones, but on average, yeah. This is a setting with gauss pistols though.
>>43718539
That's not uncommon in GURPS books. You could easily take the ideas for most of their sourcebooks and translate them into other systems. The accompanying rules for the fluff descriptions just assume you're using GURPS.
The more realistically-grounded books (GURPS Low-Tech comes to mind) are 50% rules, 50% historical textbook. This means it's easy to insert those rules to model a sword-and-sandals game or early medieval game, but not so useful for those wanting modern or sci-fi stuff. And there's the classic newbie mistake of assuming you need to use all the rules in all the books, instead of just using the ones relevant to the game you're trying to run.
>>43718557
A lucky shot from a .22LR could kill you dead instantly, or you could stand up to multiple handgun wounds (at least for a few moments) and survive with a trip to the ER.
Better question is, what do you want your game to be like? If you're planning on constant blazing gunbattles, you won't like a game that's constantly telling you your character needs to spend a month in the hospital and be crippled for life.
>>43718594
I will never, ever in my whole life trust anything written by britbongs on the subject of guns or gunfighting
>>43718490
he's giving a troll response because d20 modern is notoriously shitty.
i'm going to echo the BRP/GURPS suggestions. GURPS FOR EVERYTHING is a stupid meme but the system's gunplay rules are legitimately better than the competition
>>43718648
nigger, ffg is in minnesota
>>43718648
The game mechanics emphasize stuff like taking cover, suppression and overwatch.
It's not a perfect replication of guns, gunfighting or tacticool shootouts, but it's close enough for my tastes. Not everyone will share that, but fuck 'em.
>>43718576
>RPGs can't support that fine of resolution.
To each his own about the boring and pointless part, but how can't an RPG simulate the differences between two somewhat differential calibers?
I mean shit, can't you just make them different dice values?(If you care, that is.)
>>43718617
Huh. Terrifying.
>>43718623
>And there's the classic newbie mistake of assuming you need to use all the rules in all the books
I've done this. It was..a very slow combat.
>>43718631
>A lucky shot from a .22LR could kill you dead instantly, or you could stand up to multiple handgun wounds (at least for a few moments) and survive with a trip to the ER.
Shot placement! Shoot center mass. I would always always assume that a player, when shooting, is shooting center mass.
>Better question is, what do you want your game to be like?
Well, I already wrote a system. I'm just gathering opinions and talking to the community(You guys) on what you like, don't like, and why.
It's fun to get new perspectives.
>>43718557
Go have someone put a 9mil in you from twenty feet. Record observations.
>>43718657
>he's giving a troll response because d20 modern is notoriously shitty.
If there is anyone who has ever posted, currently post, or will post on /tg/ who knows the shittiness that is D20 Modern, it is I.
>Gurps/BRP
A good solid system.
>>43718691
I survived. Next question.
>>43718752
Underrated post.
>>43718752
Now do it without wearing armor, as that's what >>43718520 said.
>>43718752
That looks like a metal plate, not a sternum. Are you a droid? Captcha, you know we don't serve their kind here!
>>43718815
Why get shot myself when there are known cases of people being shot multiple times with 9mm and surviving? Picture related.
I don't know too much about Traveller, but I do know about guns. Your standard ballistic handgun will very rarely cripple, let alone incapacitate someone with a single shot.
>>43718848
It's armor. I'm a meatbag. I promise.
>>43718691
I've actually eaten a 9mm para before; it hit me at an angle, and it skilled along the ribs, cracked one and exited without hitting anything really important. second skimmed my arm, not even really worth talking about. I threw a few .45s back, one blew through his hand, made him drop the gun plus two fingers and then he ran off. apparently the cops found him two weeks later; supposedly they had to amputate the hand.
thus is the random whim of the gunfight gods
(before anyone asks, it was a botched liquor store robbery; I heard the robber shoot the ceiling, drew and moved towards the store. he came out, cranked off like five shots before his ancient star jammed, hit me twice)
all I can really say on the subject of gunfights is that when shit happens, it happens fast, and people's ability to keep going after being shot is quite a bit more than movies'd have you think
>>43718892
I'll try not to turn this into a /k/ thread, but..
> I threw a few .45s back
What gun?
>>43718862
The math is a bit fuzzy, it's been a while since I've read it. Death is not common, but it is a very real possibility. It's defs worth a read if you like hard sci fi and gunfights that no one wants to be participating in.
>>43718944
Apparently I downloaded the books and Archived them away.
I'll have to actually take a read of them Anon, thanks.
>>43718557
in june of 1997 got hit with a stray .22 short in the leg and thought i just skinned my knee until i felt the lump under the skin (use to live in DC, shootings in my neighborhood were pretty common). part of that was probably adrenaline from fleeing, but it only had a tiny entry wound and did minimal damage. hospital visit was around 3 hours total, a lot of that waiting. .22 short can definitely kill you if it hits in the right place tho.
>>43718960
Always happy to shill for Traveller! By the way, you still haven't mentioned what YOUR favorite TTRPG is for guns.
>>43718990
Because I'm trying to keep the discussion open and not lock people out when I mention it.
But since you asked, Ops and Tactics.
>>43718926
it was my uncles old police backup gun, an ancient colt 1917 that had been semi-fitz'd; bobbed hammer and two inch barrel, but still had the trigger guard.
I googled, and this one looks a lot like it did, except for the trigger guard (that, and the grip being wrapped in hockey tape instead of whatever's in the photo). I ended up giving it to my niece when she went off to a collage in a shit area, so I don't have it no more
>>43719042
Neat. Those are good guns.
Stay strapped, anon.
>>43719008
That... Is really neat. Modern Magic splat has my attention. Thanks for introducing me to it! Have some art.
>>43719117
No problem. Thanks for the art.
>>43719117
>shit, we need to make this look near-future, but not to far
>I know, give his spacegun a P-mag
>>43717892
Bump for the bump god
>>43718557
Well, depending on how it's being handled, in terms of rules, I would ask whether this "cripple and incapacitate" is immediate, as an instantaneous result of the gunshot wound, or whether this is perhaps what eventually happens after hours or days, after several failed CON rolls, the wound becoming infected, etc.
As others have noted, lots of people have taken multiple hits from low or medium powered handguns only to keep on fighting, or run away, or get on the ambulance unassisted. Some of them walk home, lie down, and bleed to death in a few hours. Or they die on the operating table, or die of an infection two weeks later.
>>43717892
It's going to sound odd, but I quite like the Star Wars d6. My only complaint is that the ranges aren't that well-written.
Are there any systems that simulate area suppression and beaten zones?
>>43720144
t2k does, for one
As a fellow /k/ommando, I have to say, realistic doesn't always mean good. Games are more fun when they're cinematic.
That said, the "Friday Night Firefight" system for OG Cyberpunk was a pretty great combination of fun and horrifically lethal.
>>43720228
it's TOO lethal in my mind, unrealistically so, even. it falls into the trap of "instant death bullets" a little too far to be playable or fun, IMO
>>43718892
It's why anyone trained in firearms for combats knows you shoot until the 'target deforms' and is otherwise incapacitated.
Statistically 4-7 rounds into the torso (not counting extremity hits) is the average numbers to be fatal, but the variables in ballistic wounding are so huge that it's really hard to calculate.
And in a gunfight, someone can go a good 30-60 seconds just on adrenaline after taking a shot that tears their heart in half before collapsing, and they are a threat for that long.
That's a lot of rounds of combat. Hell, even bullet through the brain pan isn't an assured death sentence, unless it breaks the part of the brain that controls your autonomic functions.
I always wanted a TT system that accounted for those variables. But that is sim territory.
>>43719117
Fucking liches, hanging around in space.
>>43718677
Caliber differences, other than handling, are very minimal. Especially for wounding properties. The most reliable way to eliminate someone is hit to the Central Nervous System. That is a very small percentage of body volume. Shot placement into center mass is two fold: sufficient damage to vitals to incapacitate through structural damage/bleeding/shock and chance of hitting the CNS.
And when it comes to ballistic wounding, there are a lot of things that are really hard to account for, but accounting for the 0.07 inch difference between a 9x19 and .45ACP is really negligible, when a .22 Short to the arm can make some people go shocky and die.
>>43720304
But I thought a shot in the arm was supposed to be good for you.
black powder musket
style is everything
>>43720148
Which edition? By T2K, you don't mean Twilight 2013?
Any system good for primarily close quarters combat? 0-100m maybe?
>>43720463
t2k13 has it, IIRC, but 1 and 2e had it as well (though it might have been in one of the books, not in the main game)
>>43718677
>fairly different calibers
That's sort of my point--they are different, but your system has to cover the difference between a .22LR and a 50 bmg.
A skilled shooter has similar enough capabilities with a 9 or 45 that modeling the difference is, to me, a distraction. Modeling the difference between a 9 and 44 magnum is borderline. D20 modern included lots of granularity because DnD players like shopping.
I take your point about assuming everyone is shooting center mass, but gunfights are chaotic. Even trained shooters miss more often than they hit when faced with people who shoot back.
An important feature of any good "realistic" firearms system for me would be good rules for suppressing fire/fire and maneuver tactics.
>>43718470
>>43718490
>>43718657
>>43718704
Ops & Tactics is d20 based and does guns pretty well.
Personally I always liked the way Silhouette/SilCore tied the accuracy of a shot directly to the damage it did.
Margin of Success based systems are great.
>>43720304
Yes and no. The whole minimal difference between calibres thing refers to service pistol calibres, i.e. 9x19, 9x18, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 7.62x25, etc. Where .22 short (and .22 LR, and a few other smaller rounds) falls down is penetration, which you need to punch through to vitals/CNS, whereas all the service pistol can reliably penetrate that far and more but with relatively minor differences in diameter/weight/speed between them. Magnum pistol cartridges "stop" appreciably better than service cartridges.
Proper rifle cartridges are yet another big jump in lethality.
Gonna be honest, I think Savage Worlds gets across the feel of a gunfight without being too autistic. A good shot will deal more damage, if a sniper catches you through the brainpan unawares consider yourself dead, and no bullet is entirely risk-free regardless of body armour or physical toughness.
The only downside is a kind of anaemic approach to suppressing fire: it takes a Spirit check to run through it, and you only eat a bullet if you roll a natural 1. Failure simply means you lose your nerve and can't brave the incoming fire.
That and weapon attachments are a very broad-strokes affair: if you want a benefit for using an aftermarket vertical foregrip, it's not the system for you. Still, it's good enough for me, and it's a damn sight easier to pick up and play than GURPS or CP2020.
Hey, thread's still up!
>>43721792
>D20 modern included lots of granularity because DnD players like shopping.
Actually, no it doesn't. D20 Modern did the opposite: All of the guns do 2dx damage, and there isn't really ANY difference between picking any gun over another. You just go for capacity and hope for the best.
My issue with D20 Modern was that it grouped ALL serviceable calibers, from .380 all the way up to 10MM in the same 2d6 catch all, which is not even close to real modeling.
>A skilled shooter has similar enough capabilities with a 9 or 45 that modeling the difference is, to me, a distraction.
I suppose it's not so much the similarities, but the amount of tissue damage, IMO.
Good hollowpoints can offset 9mm's smaller size, and be quite effective, but taken FMJ vs FMJ, 9mm is clearly worse.
>Modeling the difference between a 9 and 44 magnum is borderline.
Ehh...44 Magum has a HELL of a lot more energy, weight, and power behind it than 9mm. It should reflect that in the rules.
>An important feature of any good "realistic" firearms system for me would be good rules for suppressing fire/fire and maneuver tactics.
I agree.
>>43718439
>phoenix command, no doubt.
spectrum small arms would be more realistic, if they continued to do it.
also some guy from phoenix command yahoo gurps is reverse engineering the phoenix command tables to make his own and more realistic retroclone. It will be called firebird headquarters
It will have a table for when the enemy is lying on the ground, a thing phoenix command didnt had (but if I remember spectrum small arms has).
>>43721813
OP is the one who wrote Ops & Tactics dude.
I bet he feels good having his own RPG recommended to him.
>>43723500
I feel better that D20 Modern has a replacement.
That's the whole reason for writing it in the first place. I like it, people I know like it, and there are some anons on 4chan who like it, so hooray!
>>43717892
Call of the Void is looking good so far, but it's a spinoff of Song of Swords and requires you to be knee-deep in that unfinished game already to play it.
Good stuff though, does 20th century shooting very well, really captures how hectic and inaccurate gunfights can be.
>>43722011
I was under the impression that .22 LR, at least if you use solids instead of hollowpoints, generally penetrates 12"-14" of calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin--a dense, tough gelatin mixture created to mimic human muscle tissue.
12"-14" of gelatin, with or without clothing, is on the low side, but generally regarded as adequate under the current FBI testing methodology.
The .22 LR has some other weaknesses, though. It doesn't deal at all well with intermediate barriers, like car doors, etc., that are also part of the FBI ammunition test protocol. It can be argued that if you're engaging people who are using parked cars for cover you're not in a handgun fight any more and you should have brought a rifle. Be that as it may, that kind of barrier is very unkind to the little .22.
Another problem is that rimfire priming is inherently significantly less reliable than centerfire priming. There's a reason the technology was dropped like a hot rock when better priming methods became available and only survives today in inexpensive ammo intended to be used for plinking and target shooting. And yes, I'm aware, before World War I the firearms ammo makers hired exhibition shooters to travel the country putting on shows, and a guy named Topperwein logged something like 115,000 rounds of .22 through a Winchester semiauto rifle with only four malfunctions, all due to faulty priming. That was more than a hundred years ago. They could do that kind of hand inspection of every primed .22 LR case but the ammo would be as expensive as centerfire ammo. That level of QC doesn't exist in the 21st Century, not for cheap plinking ammo that people buy 500 rounds at a time at Wal-Mart. With some lots of cheap .22 ammo I've gotten 3%-5% duds in a target pistol that is otherwise quite reliable. This is another reason we don't see a lot of people in the 21st Century using the .22 LR for anything more serious than plinking.
I read a small Vietnam War rpg called GRUNT. It's got all the rough edges typical of a one-man development team, but it plays with some really cool ideas. The primary shooting mechanic is Area Fire, because usually your unit is piling on automatic fire against obscured targets and doesn't know the results. If return fire stops, is it because the enemy is dead, fleeing, or waiting? Nerve wracking as hell. The rest of the system is really clunky, but I've never stopped trying to import that beautiful mechanic into every other game.
