relegation/promotion
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Why don't North American sports have relegation/promotion systems?
now that i think about it, it does seem pretty fucking stupid to not punish teams for doing shitty, Like instantly getting the 1st round draft pick for finishing last in the NFL. Teams just tank their season away just for it.
Would Relegation/Promotion work in North America?
>>66452289
It doesn't matter. It will never happen.
>>66452297
hypothetically speaking
>>66452289
>Would Relegation/Promotion work in North America?
It wouldn't because greedy ass owners would just relocate the franchise to a bigger city instead of trying to git gud. I don't mind teh draft system, but i agree thatthe current NFL system is retarded, they should introduce a draft lottery like in the NHL.
For people that hate socialism they really do love Socialism
Because American sports use cap space. Punishing bad teams turns it into something like la liga
Again...comparing a sport with 32 teams to a sport with 5 continents. This argument is retarded. You seriously think the NFL would be better if the worst team lost their chance to improve and we brought in a replacement every year? That's dumb as shit and it only works for soccer because there's over 500 teams in one country
If a franchise drops out of a market the local preference might shift away from that sport over time. In Europe there's only one sport, so it doesn't matter.
>>66452289
It just didn't develop that way, now it's too late to implement it without a massive change to the sporting culture.
No one had even heard of the concept of relegation until about a decade ago.
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me.
It's a different idea, It makes you choose whether you want to compete or prepare for competing, that way you get new good teams every year instead of a bunch of teams ruling the league.
The focus is always on the top teams anyway.
Works since the NBA is an organization meant to entertain and get viewers.
>>66452395
There have been 9 different nfl champions in the last 10 years. How many years have barcelona won their league in the last 10 years?
>>66452289
the league is designed to reward owners no matter how shitty the team is doing, so no it's not gonna happen
>fire an incompetant coach? don't worry you get a higher draft pick with your new coach
>cap size limit means you don't have the ever increasing wages of european football (not necessarily a bad thing, but it sure as shit helps the owners)
>>66452308
It's not needed in the NFL because it doesn't mean as much. It's needed in the NBA or NHL because having one all-star completely changes your team. The NFL is full of teams with a couple great players, that have no success because having a couple pieces doesn't get you anywhere.
>>66452289
>Would Relegation/Promotion work in North America?
Proably, but it would hurt the profits so it won't ever happen.
>>66452319
Most Americans wouldn't know socialism if it bit them in the ass.
It won't work because we don't have a gorillian teams for basketball or handegg like Europe does for soccer. Plus the USA is huge and would make travel very expensive for the small teams.
The worst part is that clubs (or rather communist franchises) cannot raise their own young talents. Everyone has to pass through the communist draft and play for the franchise the Cartel comrades tell them to.
It's ridicolous. Cartel comrades trading slave players and franchises aiming at losing all games to get communist moneys and best position in the communist repartition of human resources, aka players.
No wonder 'fans' there are plastic af and support a player over a club. Because there are no clubs after all.
>>66452319
>A system that ensures the handful of rich owners continue to make money and remain in power no matter what
Totally sounds like socialism.
It makes no sense logistically due to the size of the country
>>66452289
The USA is a socialist paradise.
>>66452503
>it's a dunning - Kruger episode
>>66452546
yes, good thing trading players is completely forbidden in association football
fucking fiestaposters I swear
>>66452289
the only team in the past 15 years that even comes close to genuinely tanking is the clots for Luck
plus 32 teams is not nearly enough for a promotion relegation system
and association football also doesn't punish teams for doing shitty...as long as your club is rich. teams like MU, city or lavorpell wouldn't even be in the premier league if every club in the system had to operate with the same salary cap
>>66452341
Critical thinking.
You'd also have to increases the number of teams. Some cities would get multiple teams, some cities would finally get a team.
For instance, if the NFL or NBA were regulated to only 20 teams in both leagues, new teams would be created. Also allows for a new team to enter into the top league.
I'm not sure if it also fixes the parity issue though. But it fixes alot of other issues, like how college sports are a fucking joke and the only people it benefits are the people who own the college and the coaches with multi million dollar contracts, and how most d leagues are pointless
>>66452733
not how it works, unfortunately.
firstly, it takes an incredible amount of money to start a franchise these days. we're talking a billion dollar upfront cost. not many people are going to be able to afford it
secondly, most places that have enough people/interest for multiple franchises, already have it (LA, NY, TX). you couldn't put 2 franchises in, for example, kansas city. KC is a rich sports town, full of passionate fans. but they don't even have an amateur basketball team (not counting college). so you put 2 basketball teams, and they'd get maybe 5k in attendance a piece. if that.
thirdly, there just isn't enough talent to go around. basketball is one of the hardest sports to play, considering height is one of the basic requirements. and then you have to be tall, athletic, and able to shoot a ball into a tiny net.all the expansion teams would basically consist of shitty college players who couldn't cut it in the NBA, and would get destroyed every game.
the draft isn't perfect, but it's the only way to keep the game competitive
>>66452289
>punish teams
What's the incentive to punish teams?
Punishing teams hurt the product
>>66452733
Creating new teams to put them in a second rate league wouldn't do anything good. And having 20 teams in the one league that matters would be stupid. Less games on tv and shorter playoff season. Less viewers, less money for teams to grow, less quality entertainment since the purpose of one league is to win to get into the other league.
The draft system is fine, it realizes that this is a SPORT, a GAME, simply designed to entertain. It's not a business where teams should be fired and lose a chance to bring their city a championship because of last year. Yes, there are teams that destroy every year, but that doesn't mean you need to kick out the losers and replace them with a team who won in the shit league.
Why would the US want the awful promotion/relegation system of Europe?
So 2-3 teams per league can dominate, while buying all their new talent? The domestic league games are essentially meaningless, along with the domestic championship. The only thing that really matters is the Champions League.
>>66452289
>He thinks teams tank for the #1 pick
Not every team is the 76ers
>>66452289
You need to understand how professional sports started in Europe and North America
In Europe (and the rest of the world) the clubs came first, who then came together and founded national and international confederations.
The clubs founded the leagues and the clubs exist independently from the leagues they compete in.
In North America the leagues came first. They then gave out "franchises" to willing buyers.
The franchises can't exist without the league, but the league also needs owners of those franchises, which will only happen if those franchises are at least somewhat profitable. Nobody would be interested in owning a franchise in a second, third etc. tier league.
This is also why it's completely normal and acceptable in the US to move a franchise from one city to another.
In the eyes of us Europeans (and the rest of the world) this seems beyond ridiculous and almost scandalous, but Americans accept that sports franchises need to change if their owners believe that they currently don't make enough profit.
Sorry for the long non-shitposting post btw
>>66452879
The draft is overrated
Getting rid of it would just create new free agents for the free agency period
>>66452879
Which is why Soccer is a better sport.
There isn't a bunch of adults watching teens play shitty versions of the real thing, meanwhile the flow of cash is all kinds of fucked up.
It's entirely possible to start a Club in cities that don't have them. A group of investors make a proposal to a city, the city accepts or denies the plans, funded is given through taxpayer dollars, stadium is build in a few years. Jobs are created, cash is stimulated.
Owners of the teams going now would make less, but there wouldn't be less overall viewers. That's idiotic. If more places are exposed to basketball, those places will be exposed to the NBA. Granted, obviously NBA is not the Sport it would happen to. It'd have to be football, as that already has a large foothold across the country.
I'd much rather see a smaller group of the best teams play, while smaller, shittier teams have stronger regional support, than what we have now. Not to mention, hs players could just move to the lower leagues, gain experience, wages, and not have to waste time with the ncaa bullshit.
>>66452950
Which is also why American soccer will forever be a joke in the eyes of every self-respecting Euro
>>66452950
you're understanding of north american sports history is skewed by all the memes you read. Many of the franchises here, especially in baseball, started as clubs and the owners got together.
anyway, stop commenting on shit you don't understand. especially if you are going to type that much.
>>66452904
This right here. Which is also why the European system will adapt a more American approach. Once that inevitable European Super League is coming, there most certainly won't be relegation in that one.
>>66452998
Give me an example of such instance and tell me if that club/franchise could exist without the NBA/NFL/whatever the baseball league is called
>>66452950
Actually most of the US sports started as collegiate. Then rich people saw the turnout that colleges were getting and determined they could get the best of the best together and have them go at it in leagues after college
>>66452998
You're full of shit 2bh.
>>66453032
any baseball team that existed in the 19th century, which is a bunch of them. Obviously now they couldn't operate that way, but your whole premise was based on a flawed understanding of founding of said teams.
>>66453042
not baseball or hockey, but this is absolutely the case for football and basketball
>>66452998
Which is even more reason why tiered leagues would be more beneficial.
I honestly can't take american football seriously in the least, so I don't really know how their lottery system works, but in the NBA, it would systematically improve the league. It would get rid of the D-League, the entire concept of one and done players would be gone, colleges wouldn't be able to milk players for money, and you wouldn't have to worry about teams like the Spurs wasting time against the fucking T-Wolves. Also, places like Seattle, Kentucky, Tenn, South Carolina, would have the chance to get a team, without another city losing one.
>>66453023
The Super League is completely independent from national leagues, where relegation will still exist.
>>66453046
its objectively true, it doesn't even take much research to see that's the case. Even in the NFL, the oldest teams were clubs before the league-franchise model existed.
>>66453057
I know Hockey didn't but I thought baseball did.
>>66453070
the earliest governing body for baseball had 400 member clubs
>>66453080
huh, neat.
>>66452957
>I'd much rather see a smaller group of the best teams play, while smaller, shittier teams have stronger regional support, than what we have now. Not to mention, hs players could just move to the lower leagues, gain experience, wages, and not have to waste time with the ncaa bullshit.
That's why Premier League on Fox was created. So hipster numales like you could bandwagon top Euro teams, while ignoring the rest of them.
You've got an entire talent pool divided between many teams, many nations, with only a handful able to pay and retain top talent. Which makes the rest of them pretty meaningless.
Can a soccer fan please tell me how fans of a club in the bottom of the bottom year in and year out feel about their team? What about fans of teams that were once relevant but now can't even compete for the top prize because they can't move up?
>>66452972
And every sport really, since every sportman there are forced to play for a corporate franchise, and not even one of their free choice, whereas here you and your friends in smallville FC can theoritecally rise all the way to the top league.
The whole american thing is an anti-sport spirit aberration.
>>66453096
They just have multiple teams
>>66452289
because tax payers paid for billions of dollars for stadiums that would be worthless in a minor league system.
It wouldn't work because every little shit ass village with a population of 1,000 doesn't have a team.
>>66453112
>not even one of their free choice
>What is Free Agency?
>>66453091
The talent pool issue does not translate like that to american sports.
There are hundreds of players at the college level that don't need to be there.
>>66453112
Holy fuck you're retarded. Literally every soccer player is a walking billboard
>>66453048
Fair enough, there might have been clubs in the US before, but the moment sports became professional, the leagues took over and transformed the entire American sports system into the franchise model, which is now preventing a relegation system in American sports (even your football/"soccer" league doesn't have it I believe)
>>66453059
>implying the national leagues will still matter then
Yeah, I am certain that fans will salivate more about the Hamburg vs. Bremen than the Real vs. Bayern matchups. Dumbass.
>>66453162
There are only soo many cities where you can have franchises. No one is going to pay for a team in the middle of bumblefuck North Dakota nor would any player really want to play there
>>66453112
>theoretically
>>66453131
>>66453142
don't bother lads, I have come to enjoy the lessons that yuros teach us about our sports. They are experts apparently.
>>66453112
So your system is better because it's good in theory?
the fuck
Who cares about theory, I care about what actually works. La Liga will never be interesting.
>>66453096
They watch their team's fight against relegation and can observe the championship race from a neutral perspective.
In Europe you usually just support your local team, no matter how shitty they may be.
You might have additional sympathies for one the top dogs in your league, but at the end of the day your local team is the only one you really care about, no matter how hard it may be.
Bandwagoners are looked down upon here.
>>66453166
Yes, nobody is going to care about Real vs Bayern more than about Bayern vs Dortmund if it takes place every year.
>>66453096
You can't be bottom of the table "year in year out" because there's a thing called relegation.
>What about fans of teams that were once relevant but now can't even compete for the top prize because they can't move up
It's called competition. I'm sorry if everyone can't be a winner all the time. And who says they can't "move up?". Friendly reminder that, f.i, Atletico Madrid were relegated and spend a couple of years playing in Second division about a decade ago. I guess it's not possible for you to understand what a true fan and supporter is about.
>>66453177
I think the idea is that sports would expand to places where people actually live.
>>66453281
Yeah, but even yearly Bayern vs. Real is gonna draw more than, say, Schalke vs. Leverkusen - if you think the teams of that Superleague would still compete in national leagues, you are one dumb motherfucker.
>>66453245
bandwagoners are also scorned here, m8
>>66453219
Deportivo la Coruña was literally Smallville FC and it nearly won the league in '94. It had a penalty awarded in the last minute of their last game against Valencia. Literally. And Djukic missed it. Had he score it, they'd been the Champions instead of Barcelona.
Villarreal was a literal who until a decade or so. Nowadays they're a top dog.
This is not static like your franchise system were nothing ever changes and the same franchises are there forever. Here things can change and do change by the clubs and fans own merits, not by a corporate league cartel's deeds.
>>66453388
personally I love the merits of pro/rel and club organization, but it's getting more and more bastardized by money in the new era. Unless sugar daddies come along, you're pretty much SOL with the current disparity.
>>66452581
this. I can't tell if the yurofolk are just having a bit of banter, but I suspect a handful of them actually believe they've uncovered some double standard without actually realizing how stupid they sound.
>>66453362
Well, they will.
That's the plan.
>Under Perez's plan, the continent's best teams would remain part of their respective national systems, but would be guaranteed the opportunity to play each other at the conclusion of the regular league season.
Nobody wants to abolish the national leagues.
>>66453131
People entering through the draft can't
>>66453058
No one would care about having a second tier team, especially with college sports so engrained into society
>>66452289
>LA rams get regulated
>tv ratings and money drops
>Fort Wayne team promoted
>tv markets lose money
MLB/NBA pick up market share
>>66453534
sure they can. Undrafted free agents are a thing
>>66452308
>have draft lottery
>oilers win every year
nah
>>66453534
Yeah they have to find another league or wait a year, as collectively bargained by their unionm
>>66453415
What was the old era? What changed that allowed money to have such a large impact on the disparity between teams?
>>66453573
Undrafted players don't enter through the draft
>>66453573
Only if they suck
The best players have their hands forced
>>66453599
That's really stupid
>>66453555
If a player has a chance to play in a real league, not a shitty d-league where you have to sleep in a dingy hotel, with a real chance to make it out, then the importance of college sports will become null.
>>66453603
Global TV audience, exploitation of revenue sources
>>66453624
>Union agrees to it
>"that's really stupid"
Fair enough!
>>66453628
There wouldn't be any fans that would jump ship though
They'd go bankrupt really fucking quickly
>>66453664
player unions are also another fucking stupid idea
>>66453555
That's the big difference. Over there small clubs represent small communities. Here we have colleges and high schools
>>66453664
The Union says that with Goodell
>Agree to make him judge, jury and executioner
>Bitches that he's judge, jury and executioner
It's like players forget they voted for that.
>>66453671
Jump ship from what? College sports? People don't even watch the college basketball until the tourney anyways. There is no ship.
And few fans have any loyalty to their professional team. All of a sudden GSW is the most popular team in the country. 4 years ago that certainly wasn't true.
Fans will go where they are told, especially american fans.
>>66453687
You've made a series of compllelling arguments today. upvoted
>>66453415
That only applies to the EPL league, which has been moving towards an american-style redistributuon of league moneys regardless of merits and thus is increasingly becoming irrelevant and uncompetitive in the European theatre.
Elsewhere in Europe what you have is a pretty reduced aristocracy of clubs that rose to predominance by their own merits AND as of today had been capable of maintaining their status over time. Some where giants but fell and couldn't keep its status, like Ajax, some rise and try to establish themselves among the aristocracy. The fight goes on, competitiveness goes on and nothing is static.
>>66453703
You invalidated yourself very early in this post and capped it with a sweet Fedora tip. 10/10 would read again.
>>66453703
Are you retarded?
>>66453717
Yeah, there's no disparity in Germany, Italy, France or Spain.
>>66453709
Labor unions act like they're being forced into bad positions when their occupation is a useless as playing a sport
However the capitalistic view is that people should take the contract they want but the league is restricting both the team and the player for some fucking reason. It's beyond me how neither side even wants it
>>66453703
How the fuck could you even think that?
And if only a few fans have any loyalty to their professional team then that's proof why a lower league wouldn't work
They would only care about the top league
>>66453743
TV ratings and merchandise sales have been the same for the last 4 years?
Ratings for College basketball games are more than even a fraction of what they are during the tourney?
>>66453166
people round here care far more about Forest vs County than whatever Man City's CL fixture is
>>66453802
They're still generally large
Larger than any second division would have
>>66453802
Not every college Basketball game is televised. My team only plays on the BTN the majority of the time and I don't get that channel where I live. How am I going to watch my team when I can't even get the channel.
>>66453810
If a 2nd division existed, than Kentucky wouldn't have their 5 star recruits and Calipari would be a non existent.
If you want to make an argument that with a team full of polysci majors, that the Kentucky Wildcats would be more popular in that region, than a professional team (not pro-am, not d-league, not amateur) then you have me beat.
>>66453814
I don't know what to tell you. Go to a real school in a real city then.
>>66453864
I went to a top rated business school. It's not my fault I live in a state that isn't in the Big Ten area
>>66453849
College baseball is a bigger draw than minor league baseball. It's not about the quality of play, that's not why people follow college sports
Relegation wouldn't work for many of the reasons posted in this thread. Most importantly, in my opinion, is the he fact that most American leagues only have ~32 teams to work with. If there were hundreds of teams (like in Europe) it would make more sense.
What I think Euros fail to realize is that the US already kind of has this with college sports. Take a look at college basketball: there are hundreds of teams from many distinct regions, yet only a few power conferences. Each conference might as well be it's own league these days. Same goes for college football. Teams can move from lesser conferences to greater ones and rise in power (see TCU). There isn't a draft, and while colleges can't technically pay player, they can certainly bribe them with multi-million dollar facilities, prostitutes, cars that randomly show up at their uncle's house, etc. The biggest and best programs typically always win. The best conferences always win. It's very close to the Euro structure, and I'm always confused why so many Euros don't know about it.
Don't really care about the promotion system since USA got franchises whereas we got teams that belong to cities.
But i got a problem with draft system, it is pathetic. even if you manage to pick a really talented guy as #1 pick, he will not be able to carry a team that went 4-12 last season.
Put tom brady, joe montana, marshall faulk or any great player in the Browns, they will still be useless.
Instead or drafting, teams should have a formation center and be free to recruit guys from college or formation centers like in yuro sports.
That way a team could rely on young talents for the future years instead of trying to get the next hall of famer with luck.
And since players want fame a good team wouldn't be able to get all good fresh talents because of salary cap and internal competition for the starting 11 position.
Teams would then trade players instead of draft pick rounds that mean nothing and are just gamble at best.
>>66453849
>If a 2nd division existed, than Kentucky wouldn't have their 5 star recruits and Calipari would be a non existent.
They would because getting to the bigger league is the ultimate goal, and Calipari is the better path to that
Baseball is different because the system was set up before college baseball real got a grasp (although in my state college baseball probably has a bigger strangehold than the MLS)
> that the Kentucky Wildcats would be more popular in that region, than a professional team
Yeah
Which one has history? Which one is entrenched in society?
>>66453897
>tom brady, joe montana, marshall faulk
Really, really bad examples
>>66453889
College baseball has a draw? That's legit news to me. I couldn't tell you a single thing about college baseball.
I certainly know more about the Major's farm teams though.
>>66453939
>I certainly know more about the Major's farm teams though.
Most people couldn't though
>>66453912
They were #1 picks but they had talented teammates.
Put them in the browns, bucs, jags... it's another story.
>>66453758
There will always be disparity, because not everyone can be a winner all the time. But in Spain, apart of Real Madrid and Barcelona that have always been the aristocracy of world football, everyone else rises and falls from time to time and new sensations appear. In Italy, is pretty much just Juventus the only ones that have been consistently able to maintain their status over time, as classic glories of european football like AC Milan, the second greatest club in Europe by silverware, have been in an appaling state over the past years. Will they recover? We'll see.
You're really showing your ignorance on European football.
>>66453717
>European Leagues
>less aristocratic than the EPL
TOP KEK
>>66453971
Brady was a 6th rounder
Montana was a 3rd rounder that went to a 2-14 team
Faulk was a 2nd overall but for the pre-Peyton Colts
I agree with you but those were some really bad examples
>>66454009
Well fuck me i guess, but i still find draft retarded. Maybe it's just the over hype about it and the fact that it would never work in European sports that makes me think it's stupid.
>>66453981
>tfw ac milan, glasgow teams and ajax have fallen to irrelevance today.
>>66452464
>nhl
>one player making a difference
ever hear of the edmonton oilers?
>>66453981
I've watched European football for years, dipshit. Let's explore standard deviation in team wage bills over time. Guarantee they are trening more inequitable as new revenue sources disproportionately flow to top clubs
Nice try tho pedro
>>66453998
6, actually
>>66454074
Like I said I agree
I'm not really sure why people keep insisting on the draft other than it's the way it's always been done
>>66454074
The hype is pretty dumb. Normies being tricked into watching is masterful marketing. That said, if you follow prospects throughout the years there is enjoyment to the system similar to an academy model
>>66454168
You don't need to follow any mathematics to acknowledge that the aristocracy of football have always cashed in more moneys than the rest.
So what, Johnny?. Leicester is gonna win the EPL, Hamburger SV played, 1 more European Cup final than Bayern in the 80s and Athletic Bilbao and Real Sociedad won2 Ligas each back then. Were they getting more moneys too back then than Madrid, Barsa, Bayern?
>I'm murrican and I don't understand how moneys don't win titles all the time
>>66452289
>to not punish teams for doing shitty, Like instantly getting the 1st round draft pick for finishing last in the NFL. Teams just tank their season away just for it.
Imagine a larger portion of the league full of "Cleveland Browns" year-in and year-out. A non-competitive league is bad for television.
Relegation systems consistently have teams staying in the bottom and those at the top. Various teams belong in the middle being relegated up and down.
Now, if you really want to punish teams that are consistently bad, they should lose their right to exist as teams, because they are so bad.
>>66453162
>>66452950
>You need to understand how professional sports started in Europe and North America
Your first sentence made me think you weren't gonna go full retard, but then you did.
Travel distance in the United States is a huge problem for professional sports. Clubs needed to have stronger and more centralized leagues to ensure that other teams could fulfill their scheduling obligations and not fold before the next season. You can't just look at how the current Big 4 operate. You need to know about all the leagues that came and went before them.
