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Why are most men clueless about how to impress and seduce women?
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Why are most men clueless about how to impress and seduce women?

Most men don't seem to have a clue about how to seduce women and need to consciously learn these skills through trial and error, reading books etc. Isn't this a bit of an evolutionary paradox? Shouldn't we expect men to have evolved to instinctively understand what impresses women and how to talk to them etc?

To me, the fact that most men are pretty clueless about how to seduce women strongly suggests that this wasn't a necessary skill for prehistoric men to have. Prehistoric men probably acquired females mainly by force or arranged marriages so that it wasn't necessary to seduce them like it is in modern civilised societies.
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ITT: projection
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>>8169955

Not really. Even the best seducers and pickup artists all say that they weren't born knowing how to seduce women and that they've had to learn these skills through years of trial and error.
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>>8169949
Why do you assume that cavemen didnt learn how to seduce cavewomen?
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>>8169970

Because it's such an important skill we'd expect it to have become instinctve and intuitive.
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>Waits patiently for scientific explanation of how to seduce women.
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Women have no idea how to seduce men either.
They just try to act cute and when they become your gf all they do is bitch and moan, which akes you want to kill yourself.
Very evolutionary counter intuitive as well.

But to answer your question, you don't need to learn anything from books.
All you have to do is hang around women all the time and you'll bound to get one after a while.
That is, if you're not fucking ugly or sick.
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>>8170068
>if you're not fucking ugly or sick.
fucking shit piss, that explains why I cant get laid.
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>>8170283

I mean ugly as in, you have any very noticeable genetic deformities or conditions.
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Back in the caveman days they didn't need to. They either rape them or the women come to them for food/protection.
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>>8170297
>I mean ugly as in, you have any very noticeable genetic deformities or conditions.
Looking like Stephen King apparently counts.
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>>8170305

no, looking like this nigger does
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>>8169961
That's because you listened to a pitch because they are selling a product.

>I needed a program/book/seminar just like this one too!
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>>8170301
nice pleb anthropology there m8
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>>8170310
>no, looking like this nigger does
Yes, I assure you, looking like Stephen King counts.
Observed data trumps hypotheses.
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>>8169949
Because seduction is a very complex task that depends heavily on cultural context.
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>>8170317

What observed data?
Isn't he married?
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>>8169949

>sexual relationships with women are the result of seduction
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>>8170317
>trumps hypotheses.
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>>8169974
Women are as varied as men are. I don't work with pickup lines or any of that bullshit. Im honest, upfront, and take care of myself.
I cold approach women all the time. usually in a cafe or a library because it's public and they are not busy.
I have a rejection rate of 1/6 from information exchange. As for dates to relationship, it's much, much higher. like 2/3rds reject me for bf material but fuckbuddy and friends remains about 1/6.

General understanding should be is not all women want you and not all women don't want you. You just have to express your interest to them and they make the choice to reject you or not.
Cavemen most certainly did seduce but it was probably along the lines of food or items. Not much different from today.
Basic rule with respectable women is they don't want to be treated like shit or have no idea what is going on. If you have a basic level of manners and are honest with them, you are already on the market.
It's not difficult, you just have to try.
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>>8169970
>>8169974

They just raped.

>>8170301
This
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>>8169949
You're partially right, ancient men didn't have to try so hard to seduce women, but not because it was forced, because their masculinity was not suppressed by modern society.

Behavior has a lot to do with modern society, especially the prohibition of behaviors. Everything that society is can in some way be boiled down to training ourselves to resist our basic instincts and behave more "civilized"; to a large extent, that specifically means resisting our masculine urges to fight or fuck everything that we see. Masculinity is uncivilized, but it's also what women are genetically programmed to be attracted to. Today, young men are raised from an early age to resist their masculine impulses, making it more difficult for them to attract women as adults. These young men enter the world thinking that just being a good person is enough, not realizing that since before they can remember, society has been training them to resist the very thing that women are most attracted to; they're shocked and confused when they realize that just being a good person doesn't get you very far on it's own. Of course, this gives rise to numerous popular strategies to attract women that we all know of as a stopgap, and I'm sure these strategies will continue to evolve as our society continues to suppress everything masculine.

Masculinity is largely behavioral, while femininity is largely physical - women are still as attractive as they ever were to men, but men have changed and the evolving morals in pursuit of a more just society is the cause. This isn't going completely unnoticed, either, notions of the "pussification" of men do exist, and I think it's a real phenomenon that women are noticing more and more as well.
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>>8170447
TL;DR

In the past, attracting women was not an intellectual pursuit like it is now. It just came naturally to men behaving like men. Today, those natural behaviors have been suppressed.
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in the near past and sometimes present, you just pay some young lady's father X number of goats or cattle and she's yours.

it's not so different now, except you have to show you can provide her resources usually. so, seduction is about selling yourself as successful. usually. and successful means different things to different women. if she doesn't respect you, you're probably not getting any.
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>>8170447
>Guess I'm feeding the trolls

You have this completely backwards. Unnecessary fighting is selected against in almost every species. Even bears and large cats will usually try to avoid a fight if at all possible.

Are you really trying to argue that society repressing wanton murder is a bad thing? Society developed naturally because most people would rather work together to make food and other essentials than fight each other for those things.

Lastly, society today absolutely encourages violence in men.....
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>>8170489

what does murder have to do with masculinity?

are you that detached that you don't understand what he means by masculinity?
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>>8169949
>/sci/
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>>8170489
>masculinity is murdering
holy shitballs
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>>8170492
You're right, poor writing. I was saying that society doesn't repress masculinity. It forms taboos and laws against shit that nobody wants in their life. I don't associate these things with masculinity.

His argument was that masculinity is about "fighting or fucking everything that we see" and that society represses these urges. My argument is that these urges are present in both sexes, but society encourages them in men while discouraging them in women.

That argument also touches on his statement that femininity is largely physical. Society defines femininity as being demur and coy and subservient. I think there are more behavioral than physical components to femininity.
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>>8169949
Society. That's why. A caveman can grab his babe by the unkabungas and fuck the shit out of her, but now we have society. Look at dogs. Always raping each other, and neither the giving or receiving end really giving a fuck. That is sex at the primitive evolutionary level. Now we have morality and other shit that makes some individuals not want sex or want sex. Freud said we lived for food and sex, and would put sex over food if we weren't starving to death. However, this isn't really true, otherwise high schoolers would be fucking all over the streets.
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>>8170508
You know masculinity isn't just fighting and fucking, it's just a common phrase which is used to mean our most basic, unfiltered instincts, a more vulgar form of "fight or flight". I did not mean to say that masculinity is actually just fighting and fucking things.

Masculinity is a whole spectrum of behaviors, like horse-play with other males and being assertive. Men raised to "treat women with respect" and so on get fucked out of the gene pool if they take it too seriously. Treating a woman with respect, like she's some high class citizen is actually the perfect way make her vagina as dry as the sahara desert; the fact that "treat women with respect" is a phrase in common usage when rearing males is just one of many aspects of modern society which is causing males to be less attractive to females.
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>>8170530
I'm not sure I agree. I think a lot of the behaviors you view as inherently masculine and suppressed by society I view as being created/reinforced by society.

There are more societal messages glorifying violence and objectifying women than there are saying "treat women with respect"

>>8170409
I think this guy's got the right idea of how to pick up women and is also being super respectful. I.e., just treating them like another person and not a "mystery" to be solved
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>>8170530
>>8170546
Me again. As an example, assertiveness is so societally ingrained that I'm not sure how you could support an argument that it is inherently masculine.
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>>8169949
Because people aren't born with anything but the most simple, basic knowledge, if even that. Forget seduction, humans don't even know what sex IS without being taught.
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>>8170550
you could make the same arguments about demur, coy and subservient

the traits are not unique in either gender, they are more pronounced

women prefer to cooperate with others rather than assert their personal interests, women value growing interpersonal relationships more than asserting opinions

men prefer to assert their personal desires or whatever, often at the expense of cooperation and interpersonal relationships

Hmm, I recall something else in the conversation earlier which stresses cooperation with others over individual interest.
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>>8170552
Actually men do know sex by birth.
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Early humans lived in close contact with one another and formed relatively small groups. Mate desirability in such a community is more of a social thing and people generally know what they can expect from one another.

In modern times you don't have this contact with other humans, because the city or town you live in is simply to o big.
Instead, you have to approach complete strangers and try (and fail) to give a convincing elevator pitch that let's them have meaningless sex with you.
Couple this with a constant influx of images showing people who do succeed in this mess of a system on television and social media and you have yourself a generation of young people who don't feel like they have a purpose.

It's called alienation and doesn't look like it's going away soon.
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I don't care.
Ochem is the love of my life.
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>>8169949
Today boys and men are taught to act like women and suppress masculine traits because they are considered bad for society. These natural masculine traits happen to be the ones that are attractive to women, go figure.
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>>8170469
>attracting women was not
>an intellectual pursuit like it is now
"intellectual"??
L0L fgt pls
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>>8169949
Men don't select their women, so they don't need to seduce them. Women select their men. Apart from obvious borderline scenarios like you don't want to fuck a gypsy, etc. Plus the >acquired females mainly by force
stuff.
Seduction simply means you present a (mostly) false picture of yourself which matches the ideals of your selected female. Usually this is why these are only short term relationships, unless the female finds something actually attractive in you.
Same goes for women: men like to fuck they show their nice asses, etc.
If two girls are fighting for you, you won't decide which one to keep. The one who prefers you more than the other will stay by your side.
Of course, what they find "attractive" (what are their filters for selection) is entirely another thing.

Instead of seducing women, being honest with yourself and themselves and finding women with something in common might be a better idea for the long term. Depending on this you can become friends, fuckbuddies, lovers, etc.
For a one night fuck seducing is something worth considering, she won't have enough time to catch all your lies.
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>>8169949
1. feminism
2. feminism
Seduction isn't allowed anymore without express consent. Far more likely to get it wrong, far more to lose when you do get it wrong.
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>>8170514
>high schoolers would be fucking all over the streets.

They aren't?
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I never had a problem with women, because I was socially confident, humorous and had a high sex drive so I was always very forward.

I was socially confident because my father was extremely socially confident/dominant, and I was humorous for the same reasons.

I emulated his behaviour as a child and then ran with it myself during my teenage years and became a different sort of socially confident, funny motherfucker.

Females love confidence and humour, so providing you’re not Quasimodo those two things will get you far.

I'm no Clooney, trust me.

Everyone I know who is bad with women lacks confidence.

They also often disagree with a woman over petty - irrelevant - things, or become awkward when they internally disagree without vocalising it, such as whether she likes their favourite band or something else completely unimportant.

If you wanna bang a chick, you create an agreeable, humorous, slightly mysterious environment, in which she feels comfortable, entertained by your company (no, don’t start juggling) and intrigued to find out more.

I don’t think you can really teach that.
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seduction is as much of a mastarable technique as is mind control.

If she doesn't want to get seduced by you, you can be the sexiest motherfucker but the only way you will have your way with her is rape, and thats what most pickup artists are, borderline rapists.
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>>8171196

OK, I should have said:

I don't think I can teach that, as it comes intuitively to me.
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>>8169949
wtf >>>/r9k/
This has nothing to do with science
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>>8171260
>How do I SCIENTIFICALLY take a shit?

Completely meaningless label to enable all forms of off-topic shitposting.

>>>/r9k/
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>>8171290
No, you are a fucking idiot.

This is a genuine question. "Why do humans have small ears rather than fucking enormous ears?"
That may be easy to answer or not, but it's a legitimate question that can potentially be answered using the theory of evolution.
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>>8171187
>If she doesn't want to get seduced by you, you can be the sexiest motherfucker but the only way you will have your way with her is rape, and thats what most pickup artists are, borderline rapists.
this so so so soo fucking much
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>>8169961
soft rape.
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>>8171176
Not the last time I checked. Statistics that would say otherwise such as STD and STI transmission and Birth Rates are actually more considerably low.
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>>8169949
You just answered your own question.
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>>8169949
If you have to do something to seduce women you've already failed the evolutionary lottery.

be really really good looking and they'll seduce themselves for you. Otherwise give up, you're a meal ticket and nothing more.
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>>8171020
Underrated post
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>>8171020
Nailed it.
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>>8169949
it's not that hard to date and fuck in poor countries but western countries are different story.
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>>8169949
>seduce

Nature doesn't care about seduction. That's something women invented to continue denying the fact that biology says men should rape women because that's how mammals work.
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>>8169949
The fact is that even women don't know what they want.
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>>8169949
>I am an awkward kissless virgin so the only possible explanation is that millions of years of evolution did this to me

that's just sad. utilize occam's razor.
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Scientific explanation on how to seduce women:
1. Don't be 30 and unemployed
2. Don't live with your parents
3. ????
4. Profit
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natural selection chose rape behavior. beating the shit out of other men and taking the woman back to the cave by force was seduction behavior. new age seduction is a young thing and is barely being mastered.
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Because seduction relies heavily on culture. Kind of like how you cant make friends instinctively.
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>>8177220
Ya'll too self absorbed. Any ovulating female past puberty and before she has latched unto a male is a self seducing machine. You throw some compliments at it and buy her some baubles and trinkets, into the sack you go and make crotch fruit.

Now the art of cuckoldry is something else entirely if that's what OP is referring to, I hear tell it was a fine art in more enlightened times but even today, the idea of actual DNA testing of offspring is fraught with peril. This IMO is seduction, stealing another mans woman, the happier she is in the original relationship the more challenging the seduction. It should probably be an Olympic sport.
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>>8170305
Money and prestige are fully adequate to compensate for lack of good looks.
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>>8170506
>>masculinity is murdering
>holy shitballs
So you have not been to South America, Africa or the Balkans?
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>>8170489
>masculinity
>wanton murder
>society encourages these things
Alright, you got your (you)
Would you please go back to reddìt or tumbler or where ever now?
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>>8169949
While fornicating madly and impregnating many women might seem like big win in propagating your genes, children raised and supported by their fathers have historically survived at much higher rates into adulthood and grown to be adults with huge advantages over fatherless children, for fairly obvious reasons.

Being an expert seducer is just not a big advantage. That's an investment in producing more children with much poorer prospects. It's also a competitive arena: the more men who try to be players, the smaller the proportion of them can succeed.

When you're producing children in committed relationships, awkwardness in forming those relationships is largely irrelevant. You only have to succeed once. Fumbling around incompetently for a few years before succeeding by luck works fine.
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>>8169949
you're basing this on the false premise that there's any technique to "seducing women". no, women judge you by your face, height, and bone structure (signs of genetic fitness). that is the criteria they use to fuck you--literally if you're hot or not. anything to the contrary is just coping.
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>>8178507
The murder rate in my South American country is lower than the USA.
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>>8170546
Found the SJW
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>>8175515
In fairness, we aren't animals here. At least not on 4chan.
Evolutionarily, we should kill our rivals and rape the most attractive females to spread our genes, but I think we can all agree that would be a bad idea, no?
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>>8179051
this
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>>8170305
>>8178499
>Stephen King
>lack of good looks
>6'4"
>Pic related
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>>8179051
Considering I don't care about women and girls think, it doesn't affect me.
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>>8180386
thank you for your contribution to the "Nobody Cares" file, a.k.a. the shredder
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>>8169949
they aren't. they're just pussies and it fucks with them too much so they can't think straight.
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>>8178507
it is natural for men like you to crave the validation of their existence and get depressed if they fail to feel relevant, responsible.
The best way for a man to cater his need for approval is to serve some woman (and some of her children) through emotional&financial support.
Men are pleased to contribute to someone else life, to support their family.

Why women are a good way to feel relevant? Because women love to be provided for and each woman will always find a man ready to please her.
[for most men, the best feeling of feeling real is when the girl moans from your cock in her pussy]

THe problem for men is that they are disposable in the eyes of each woman, since all men wish to serve the few women who talk to them.
Men must thus invent several ways to please women, invention and creativity which strengthen their feeling of being worthy, relevant, in touch with reality.
Men are too impotent to find other way to feel real.
Once that the a woman replaces a man by another provider, the man gets very upset and depressed.
THis leads men to think that they are better than women, stronger, smarter and that they must built a life outside women. Some men manage to indeed built an empire, but they will always loose it for some women.
Women give meaning to men and betas, no matter how successful outside women, will always give up everything for some relationship with some woman who claim to fancy them.
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>>8169949
One word:
>MGTOW
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>>8179529
Yeah really anybody looks weird and ugly as they age
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dress 2 success
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Almost all things women find attractive in men have genetic components. Physical prowess, intelligence, humor, all of these have a genetic component. Physical attractiveness is the best indicator of overall genetic health though. Dispite what popular culture may say a having a good body due to genetics Verry likly also means a healthy mind. Almost everything we find attractive outside of fetishis and cultural oddities is directly linked to genetic health. Read The Red Queen and get good.
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>>8182000
>genetic health
Waste of trips.
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any books based on a social study on this? i'm genuinely curious from a scientific standpoint
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Why would you want to attract or seduce women? They have the minds of retarded children and souls made out of shit. Once you've fucked one you've fucked them all. The only good women serve at all is as wombs. If you want an heir that badly, just pay some bitch to be a surrogate, and raise the kid apart from the influence of any psychotic fat whorecows. If you don't want to reproduce, either fuck prostitutes (cheaper than dating) if you can't master your lust at all, or join the clergy and break free from the horrible bitches forever.
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>>8169949
Naturally male genes confer to the position of 'ownership.' Women are happy to oblige because the 'owner' of the tribe protects the tribe and the land which they feed off of from encroaching predators, herbivores and more aggressive intruders, who may or may not harm the women.

Any man who's been in a relationship understands that the woman is 'mine.' Although in tribes, we wouldn't be as aggressive because the women, for the most part, are ours.
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>>8173414
condoms
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>>8180386
inb4 dies virgin
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>>8171185
Of course you can't, but if someone clear enough will understand your post they can learn it on their own.

I'm really similar to you, but I didn't really emulate my father. I learned what's socially attractive from my friends who were popular with women, since I always hanged out with "the cool guys".

Anyway, in some cases it's not necessarily true. I've got a buddy who's far from being confident and he gets laid with a different girl every week. To be honest, he's a bit of an autistic pussy, but girls still think that he's "huggable" and cute.
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>>8179051
That's bullshit, you can be a little bit ugly or mediocre and you'll still be able to bang chicks if you're confident and humorous. Empathy helps too.

I'm sad for you, fags from /r9k/. You're trying to blame all your faults on evolution or looks. That's fucking miserable.
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>>8171020
This, well said.
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>>8171185
>Confidence on its own helps on anything

I hate this meme.

Artificially constructing confidence just makes the individual ignore its limits and problems and illude him/herself into trying something even though the chances of failure remain the same. Trying mindlessly like that is like saying to a magician he doesn't need good equipment to make a sucessful show, he just needs to have "Confidence". Confidence is something naturally built from sucess, not something that creates sucess.

Supressing your fears of failure is not the problem, you should try actually listening to your fears and taking care of those problems.

Not all problems are caused because of an distorted insecurity, maybe being too inseccure actually means the guy just isn't really good at something.

Also, I agree with you that creating a "agreeable, humorous, slightly mysterious environment, in which she feels comfortable and entertained by your company" works because that's just basic social conduct and 100% of all human relantionships need a culturally adequate, confy social conduct.
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