WTF
I'm in stitches right now, FULL autismo
>>8142721
Musk warns that pioneering human space travel may in fact have unforseen issues that could potentially result in lost lives. THE CROWD GOES WILD. THIS IS NEWS TO EVERYONE. HOW COULD SPACE POSSIBLY BE DANGEROUS?
RIP Musk. Impeach the bastard and give us someone who can guarantee us absolute unconditional safety.
>>8142725
It's the way he puts it. It's very soulless and autistic
>>8142721
>deep space travel is dangerous
wow amazing
>>8142729
Oh I'm sorry, do you need a safe space? Do we need to rephrase things so you feel better about it? Perhaps I can call your boyfriend to make you feel better?
MAN THE FUCK UP. It's motherfucking space. People died in the very first apollo mission ever, look it up.
God damn it, at least those people will die in an attempt to take humanity to the next level, what will you do? Bitch and whine on 4chan?
Whop dee fucking doo.
>>8142729
His wording could be better, but I don't see how it is either soulless or autistic. It's not the most eloquent way to approach the subject, but that's better than lying or avoiding the subject, which is what I would have expected.
>>8142745
>Deep Space may refer to:
>Astronomy[edit]
>Empty regions of the universe in outer space
>Extragalactic space
>Intergalactic space
>>8142729
I don't see that at all. I guess people are huge pussies these days and can't take anything straight up.
>>8142721
At least he's honest, I guess. Still. There will be plenty losers ready and willing to die for the trip and (presumably) the praise from Elon-sama.
Months of traveling in a cramped ship. All for just the CHANCE of reaching a low gravity hostile planet to live in your 20x20 dome. Paradise.
>>8142761
autism
>>8142751
lel >the next level
you just want to feel great
I would definitely be prepared to die in order to colonize Mars. Without similar sacrifices, humanity may not exist as we know it, so why be selfish about my worthless life?
>>8142751
>"Hey fly with us for half a million dollars! You may or may not get to Mars alive, we don't care!"
10/10 business acumen
>>8142815
I dont give a shit about musk, but i'd kill for a chance to die on mars
>>8142824
Hell just look at all the people who have and still do die climbing Everest. And its not even close to a unique achievement anymore
>>8142824
Yes, they expected to survive, because they spoke to the engineers of their vehicles who had well-researched estimates about their chances of dying. The chances of dying were always pretty low.
>>8142824
Yes they did. NASA was committed to bringing back all astronauts alive. These people had fucking families. While they accepted that they may not come back they knew the mission would likely be a success due to NASA diligence. Musk here is saying that the first participants are probably going to die because he's not even going to try and ensure safety. There's a big difference between "may die" and "probably going to die"
>>8142819
Literally drinking the Kool-Aid
>>8142721
is he supposed to pussyfoot around something that serious?
it's straightforward because death is straightforward - it is what it is
>>8142844
You don't fly the mission unless you can ensure passenger safety. Ethics 101.
>>8142851
Fuck that. Humans are expendable as shit
How the fuck are we going to make steel on Mars without coal? Are there other building materials we could produce?
How the fuck are we going to make steel on earth once the tree huggers make coal illegal?
>>8142867
What would you NEED steel for on mars?
>>8142851
I guess you aren't aware of the prepared Apollo 11 failure speech.
>>8142835
Well-researched estimates given information they had - we learned a shitload of things in practice. For example, we learned over-oxygenation will burn the crew to death. There is a difference between carelessness and honesty - people will die, that does not mean we wont make the best effort possible to ensure safety towards potential problems.
>>8142840
Mostly see previous paragraph, but I admit "probably" was a terrible word to use. It still doesn't represent carelessness, in my opinion. It's more blunt than people are used to hearing. And I'm not a big Musk fanboy, I think his pseudoscience comments are embarrassing.
>>8142871
It's one of main materials we use for buildings currently. How are you going to build structures on Mars without steel?
>>8142889
Use aluminium. Gravity is 1/3 so you dont need as much structural strength
>>8142891
You'd have to find an aluminum deposit. The dirt on mars is like 5%-15% iron oxide already.
I wish Musk-senpai was able to be president of the USA.
>>8142909
just a little amoral.
>>8142888
>Apollo 11 failure speech.
They didn't mention it before the launch it was a just in case thing.
>>8142891
where's the bauxite on mars?
>>8142909
He's a nutjob and you are all dumb sheep. If he ever gets his MCT off of the ground (which he won't) he will get a couple people killed, the public will be outrage and he will be shut down by the government
>>8142920
>They didn't mention it before the launch it was a just in case thing.
Which is irrelevant to the claim I was responding to, that you don't do anything you can't "ensure" is safe.
>the public will be outrage and he will be shut down by the government
What is your world like? It sounds nice.
>>8142910
We should gather hundreds of engineers to lick his --
OH THAT'S WHY HE MADE A SPACE COMPANY
Wish i had a space company
>>8142840
This isn't even close to being an accurate portrayal of the early Astronaut Corps or NASA. The Astronauts of the early space program were drawn exclusively from the military and they were very aware that there was a reasonable chance they would die. It was an acceptable risk to all of them.
The only reason NASA would never say something similar is because at the end of the day NASA is staffed by civil service bureaucrats who must answer to the morons in congress and their equally moronic constituents.
The American public loves to exist in some parallel universe without risk. These are people who are surprised that when you decide to invade two countries you may occasionally get one of your soldiers blown up. You cannot be truthful with these retards so you have to spew bullshit about how everyone will come home safe.
>>8142851
How's that working out for the airline, automotive, shipping or rail industries? You will never "ensure" passenger safety. You attempt to make things as safe as possible given the variables you're dealt and make sure that everyone involved knows the risks.
>>8142857
Nice meme, but they really are. You aren't the special snowflake you think you are contrary to what your mother may have told you.
>>8142920
>he will get a couple people killed, the public will be outrage and he will be shut down by the government
Oh never mind, you are actually retarded.
>>8142721
It's funny, but it's also true. It's not like everything is gonna be smooth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laika
>>8142721
I'm glad to see someone with influence actually speak about the risks of space exploration with some semblance of honesty.
The American public needs to accept that some things will be risky, in both lives and capital, and break out from the pathology of needing everything sugar coated.
I've been in two separate IED attacks and one relatively minor helo crash. Honestly, I would much prefer dying on Mars, even if only to placate the ego of a billionaire, than bleed out in the fucking desert in service of Israel or Halliburton.
>>8142930
Contrary to what most anons on here think, SpaceX isn't filled with mindless Musk worshipers.
We just like working on rockets and in general Musk stays out of our way and is a good steward of the company.
>>8142961
Don't we all.
>>8142984
Laika died a hero to all humanity.
>>8142721
>Hey guys just so you know if we send a ship off into completely foreign and unknown waters they may face potential danger and extreme death.
How do you think our explorers felt when they actually got to explore.
It's a noble pursuit.
>>8142745
Humanity has accomplished everything through the risk of death. How do we find out if a berry is poisonous? We make our most useless members eat them and see what happens.
>>8143366
This.
And then no longer are they useless.
We will never forget you, Utk, for paving the way in the discovery of edible, or in your case, poisonous leaves.
To put things into perspective, the entire team that first made it to the south pole died on the way back from their journey. Space is a hell of a lot more dangerous than that.
>>8143366
But thats wrong.
Knowledge of non-staple plants was primarily handled by healers who would have been one of the most valued members of society, and methods for safely testing the toxicity of a plant have been passed down for aeons.
You don't simply eat a few berries and see what happens, and you certainly wouldn't make "the most useless" member of your society do it.
For that matter, how would you even define "most useless"? In a small group, EVERY member would have been invaluable as every person was another pair of hands and eyes. You were basically valuable until you were dead.
>>8142840
>Musk here is saying that the first participants are probably going to die because he's not even going to try and ensure safety.
"Having examined past space programs, I ascertain a high chance of death even if everybody is diligent."
>HE SAID TRUE THINGS BASED ON EVIDENCE BURN THE AUTIST
>>8142920
>They didn't mention it before the launch it was a just in case thing.
"He is too honest to hide the danger, he shouldn't be allowed to run a space program"
Top tier bantz my man :^)
>>8142851
>You don't fly the mission unless you can ensure passenger safety. Ethics 101.
... I guess that's why no NASA mission has ever flown? Why no airplanes are above us? Or did you mean any value less than 100% safety when you said "ensure" ?
>>8142871
>what is Factorio
>>8142751
>safe space
>>8143447
Mars has something like .4 of earth's gravity. It's insane to think that they WOULD survive.
>>8143595
Venus, on the other hand, has .9 Earth's gravity. *Libra takes a bow* PEACE
*weighs the good and evil from afar**
*not really, but we'll pretend
>OP calls musk an autist
>turns out to be one himself
>>8142811
The people paying half a million dollars for a ticket won't be the same people who are likely to die.
The early colonists will be professional astronauts getting a free ride. Maybe NASA astronauts, maybe SpaceX employees, almost certainly not paying customers themselves. They'll be going without the benefit of anyone's experience, trying new technology for the first time under real-world conditions and depending on it for their survival.
Half a million dollars is an estimate of the cost of the mature, proven system shipping people to an established colony.
>>8143389
>Knowledge of non-staple plants was primarily handled by healers who would have been one of the most valued members of society, and methods for safely testing the toxicity of a plant have been passed down for aeons.
>You don't simply eat a few berries and see what happens
Why not just say "knowledge of non-staple plants is distributed on wikipedia"?
Humans didn't appear on the Earth with aeons of accumulated knowledge, you mong.
CRASHING THIS SPACEX
WITH NO SURVIVORS
>/sci/ is obsessed with immortality
>suddenly some space cult leader has come along and now everyone is begging to throw their lives away for him.
I thought you people were smart
>>8142920
>just in case thing
EXACTLY what this thing with Musk is.
He knows that, despite ALL the preparation for safety involved, there will be failures occuring due to human error. Just like ALL NASA missions where men and women lost their lives.
They prepared for safety, but people still died. Musk is simply telling people to understand that, despite all precaution, that deaths will probably still happen. Because history of this sort of endeavor (read: apollo missions) say so.
>>8143725
He's pre-absolving himself of responsibility. This is a very cavalier attitude for a company to take. If someone dies even though it was a possibility it's still his company's fault and he shouldn't be allowed to dodge blame by saying "hurr space is hard". When Challenger blew up NASA was rightly pilloried
>>8142835
Donno how they did it in Murica back then, but in USSR everybody fucking new that they will probably die in space. Government never said it, but austronauts themselves were not fools. And some of them died, at least one died horribly.
Musk just saing the truth, its impossible to calculate everything when you pushing the frontiers.
>>8143883
As will SpaceX. When their first human dies during a flight (If they get that far) they will be under a remarkable amount of scrutiny.
It's less about absolving himself of responsibility - If the company sends people somewhere, and they die on the journey, it's obviously their fault. Nobody (not he nor I) are denying that.
It's more about educating people on the realities of these missions. No matter how hard you try, shit happens. And when shit happens when humans are inside the capsule, humans die.
>>8143883
>When Challenger blew up NASA was rightly pilloried
...because of the nature of the space shuttle, NASA's rhetoric about it, and that flight in particular.
The space shuttle wasn't some ambitious new exploration project. It was simply supposed to be a cheaper way to put stuff in orbit. It was manned on every flight whether the crew was relevant to the mission or not, and they had left out conventional safety systems on the claim that it was "like an airliner" -- so safe that bail-out capabilities were unnecessary.
The Challenger mission that blew up had a civilian teacher onboard as a PR exercise, to show how routine and safe they considered flying on the shuttle. Meanwhile, NASA managers were lying about the risk level and ignoring engineers telling them about failure modes.
On top of all that, the shuttle had utterly failed at saving money compared to the expendable rockets it was supposed to replace. Crediting man-hours in space to it is absurd because the insistence on killing all competition to the shuttle meant NASA didn't maintain a capsule alternative, which caused a period from February 1974 to 1982 when NASA (starting from the ability to land a man on the moon) had no manned spaceflight capability at all, during which Skylab, a working space station, splashed due to delays in the shuttle program, which was supposed to be ready in time to man and maintain it.
But the shuttle program went on after Challenger. There was just too much money involved. The contractors receiving money for it and the civil servants whose careers would suffer if it were acknowledged to be a failure were a powerful lobby. They managed to spin it so the public outrage was steered toward NASA's corner-cutting on the shuttle program, attempting to provide its claimed benefits, rather than the ridiculously wasteful program itself.
>>8142751
>People died in the very first apollo mission ever
And they weren't even in space yet.
>>8142729
So you are saying that he didn't word it correctly in the snippet they quoted of an interview you didnt listen to?
>I think you are projecting autism.
>>8142840
" Musk here is saying that the first participants are probably going to die because he's not even going to try and ensure safety."
You have reading comprehension problems.
This is a sure sign of full blown retardation, please offer my condolences to your parents.
>>8143002
are you guys hiring biologists yet for terraforming / geoengineering...or just growing food on Mars?
![planetes-ep-17-opening-screenshot-1[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/KLceKN6.jpg "planetes-ep-17-opening-screenshot-1[1].jpg")
>>8142721
he's slowly turning into this guy.
"In 2010, the National Institute of Justice in the United States published recommended rights of human subjects:
Voluntary, informed consent
Respect for persons: treated as autonomous agents
The right to end participation in research at any time
Right to safeguard integrity
Benefits should outweigh cost
Protection from physical, mental and emotional harm
Access to information regarding research
Protection of privacy and well-being"
human rights laws in his country forbid him to do this.
can someone explain why we are going to mars?
is there something there that we need?
>>8144411
You need to develop your writing.
your ability to convey a clear thought is questionable at best
>>8142909
if you want public support for a massive endeavour like this you cant just sperg out and talk about people dying and shit. you think NASA said shit like this about the space program?
>>8142751
>>8144414
Materials, but I assume the reason that we are pushing to go to mars is both to progress scientific advancement but also to start the long process of setting up a permenant colony on a seperate planet.
I believe the second thing is extremely important in the eventuality that something will threaten human existence on Earth. No matter how you look at it, at some point Earth will not be able to support human life. This doesnt have to mean the end of our species.
>>8144426
that is just your opinion. I think you are sperging out.
>>8142721
wtf I hate spacex now
>>8144398
Elon wishes he could be as cool as Werner. Most entertaining scientist character I've ever seen.
>>8144422
thank you for being concerned with my writing, English is my second language. I do need practice, but I thought the quote was clear enough.
the point is after world war II people realized there are no regulations regarding human experimentation. ethics became important in research which uses humans as test subjects. the subject's interests are more important then scientific advancement due to these declarations and ethics.
>>8144469
Voluntary, informed consent covers a lot what you might find objectionable about sending people on dangerous exploratory missions.
>>8144473
then why aren't doctors allowed to euthanize patients who request it?
>>8144502
Because this would upset people with certain religious sensibilities who tend to be very vocal. The cynic in me also assumes that the AMA and medical insurance lobby wouldn't like it simply because it would reduce medical payments.
A not insignificant amount of people in the US, and various EU countries, believe that doctors should be allowed to do exactly that.
>>8144553
don't get me wrong, I'm one of those people who thinks certain situations are different and those things should be allowed.
but people are gonna be very vocal about it because people who want assisted suicide are usually made out to be unfit psychologically to make that assessment or not healthy enough to survive the trip to mars.
>>8144564
thanks. I'm sure a similar list exists for those who do not seek funding for research though.
>>8144375
The only bio/life sciences people I know here currently work on life support systems. I think we are far away from having in house bio/geoengineering positions.
>>8144568
I agree that Musk may be underestimating the politics of just how reactionary the American public can be.
>>8144574
Np. This isn't my area of expertise but I wouldn't be so sure in the assumption that this will necessarily present much of a problem for space exploration. Obviously laws exist with regards to informed consent as well as general employee protection but there are plenty of jobs right here in the US that are legal to engage in and have a fairly high risk of injury or death.
>>8142729
> be NASA
> re-enter earth's atmosphere on manned mission
> shit blows up
> kills everyone
wew, space travel is not safe, anon...
>>8142721
This guy is confirmed aspergers
>>8144584
I don't think he's underestimating. I think he's softening the ground and getting people to talk about the subject more, which might make a change in the long run for those problems we discussed.
In canada they're trying to pass laws regarding euthanasia and assisted suicides. I think it's something that can be changed if the public is exposed to the idea enough.
you work in spacex, what is your field of expertise, since it's not law? I gave up astrophysics to pursue electrical engineering.
>>8144592
More like:
>be NASA Shuttle managers
>realize that Shuttle heat shield may be critically compromised from debris strike during launch
>turn down DOD/USAF offer to maneuver NRO imaging satellite into position to get a better assessment of damaged tiles
>decide to not say shit to astronauts since there's nothing you could do anyway
>astronauts carry on mission like normal
>Shuttle reenters atmosphere and breaks apart spewing astronaut parts all over Texas
>lucky farmers get to find human limbs while tilling fields
>oh shit what happened
>play dumb, maybe cry a little for the cameras during congressionaly inquiry
>get reassigned to another cushy NASA civil service job even after it's documented that you withheld info from astronauts
>continue making $150k+ paid for by US taxpayers
>retire with awesome federal pension
Hey guys, how do I into glorious NASA administrator job?
They'd die even if they didn't go to mars. But at least they'd be the first recorded human deaths on mars.
>>8144604
I'm sure that's what he's trying to do put I don't know how successful he will be. I have much more faith in the Canadian public acting rationally concerning this than I do the American public. We have a pretty awful media that lives for quick soundbites and anything salacious. An evil billionaire sending poor unaware astronauts to their death would make for a profitable news cycle for a few days.
I work in our propulsion group but I can't get too specific since SpaceX doesn't like us posting publicly about internal aspects of the company.
>>8142891
>Aluminium
>>8144653
? He spelt it the British way
>>8144657
It's a dig at Clapistanis who reject the original way
>>8144657
Let the summerkid fire his meme
>>8144658
I'm so confused, you need to go back to meme school.
>>8142759
>autistic
Nah he's definitely autistic, have you ever seen him give a speech? It's hard to listen to him.
>>8144673
Yeah he sounds weird. Why does every STEM genius have to be an autist?
>>8144625
it's sad because many people and animals died during the space race, but they'll make a big deal of it now because of a quick media story. especially if they make him out to be a successful billionaire sociopath like you said.
I'm more interested in what degree you got if you can reveal that. but I'm guessing aerospace engineering since you're in propulsion. I don't care about the company that much.
in all honesty we don't have a space program. there's a conspiracy documentary being made about how my country sold our secret space program to Nixon though.
>>8144691
>we don't have a space program
You built the Canadarm didn't you?
>>8144701
I'm not from Canada
>>8144691
Math/MechE with a minor in Aero. Caltech doesn't offer a major in Aero.
>>8144718
awesome. any room for electrical engineers in space travel programs or are they abundant over in the US?
>>8144724
I would say EE's are in relatively high demand generally. In space launch programs specifically they aren't among the most in demand fields but they are abundant nonetheless. Tons of avionics/rad-hardening work as well FPGA design work.
What country are you in? ITAR and clearances can be problematic for foreigners if you want to go directly into aero/defense work.
>>8144741
Serbia. We're on the naughty list probably.
>>8144751
Yep, that's definitely on the naughty list.
My mother was born in Yugoslavia, although she is not a Serb. I was born in the Eastern Bloc as well. Tara is beautiful, although I haven't been in years.
>>8144776
Damn, what are the odds.
Here's the film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_oQFplWs_g
nice talking to you anon
>>8144741
What about Hungary? Should I even try? Or should I stick with ESA?
Also, software engineer here,
>>8144787
Holy shit, that looks awesome. Thanks anon, I hadn't even heard of this film yet.
Good talking to you as well. Best of luck in the future. Try not to shoot down any more of our stealth planes.
>>8144798
we should start a space program in east europe
>>8144801
I think it's propaganda conspiracy, but it still looks fun as hell.
Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible :^)
>>8144798
Hungary is a bit better than Serbia but realistically, unless you're one of the top experts in the field or bring something very unique, it's pretty rare to get ITAR exemptions. The only non-US Persons I know at SpaceX are Canadian, British or Aussie.
ESA would be a better bet. Or if you really want to be in the US try getting a tech company to sponsor you for a visa and then go from there. That would be a multi year process though.
>>8144804
The US space program owes an awful lot to Eastern European immigrants. I spent a lot of my undergrad studying int he same building were von Karman worked.
>>8144821
It does look like a fun watch.
>Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible :^)
kek
>>8144831
Well, my diploma is still underway, so I guess theres no point in rushing.
I was thinking ESA first, and after gaining enough experience, moving on to the private sector.
And who knows? By then, there may be such companies in Europe, too.
>>8144862
Where are you going to school? I worked with someone at JPL who went to Eotvos Lorand. Yeah, who knows what the future holds, hopefully Europe will have more private space corps by then. In any case, while not easy, immigrating to the US isn't impossible if you're interested in pursuing that.
>>8144882
BUTE (or BME in hungarian). It's the same tier as Eötvös. Thanks for the endorsing though, nice knowing that you can make it to the JPL from here.
>>8144896
Np. I knew quite a few Hungarians at Caltech/JPL. Good luck.
Musk is just brutally honest. He didn't get where he is now by telling delusions to himself and the people around him.
>>8144913
sure he did.
money is a social construct, it's literally a delusion we agree to share. Almost everything tycoons do is lying. They just need to bring a few of their lies to reality and they're set. People will pay for any lie they spew as long as a few of them come true.
Tweet Elon Musk and tell him to sell pieces of the falcon 9 first stages that failed their landing.
>>8144426
>you think NASA said shit like this about the space program?
...and now if America's new spacecraft succeeds in reaching Venus, we will have literally reached the stars before midnight tonight.
This is a breathtaking pace, and such a pace cannot help but create new ills as it dispels old, new ignorance, new problems, new dangers. Surely the opening vistas of space promise high costs and hardships, as well as high reward.
So it is not surprising that some would have us stay where we are a little longer to rest, to wait. But this city of Houston, this State of Texas, this country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them. This country was conquered by those who moved forward--and so will space.
William Bradford, speaking in 1630 of the founding of the Plymouth Bay Colony, said that all great and honorable actions are accompanied with great difficulties, and both must be enterprised and overcome with answerable courage...
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too...
Many years ago the great British explorer George Mallory, who was to die on Mount Everest, was asked why did he want to climb it. He said, "Because it is there."
Well, space is there, and we're going to climb it, and the moon and the planets are there, and new hopes for knowledge and peace are there. And, therefore, as we set sail we ask God's blessing on the most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure on which man has ever embarked.
Thank you.
>ethics shouldn't be discussed
1+1=1
>>8143587
kek
>>8142855
your living proof buddy
>>8142773
being a part of the first human colony on another planet is something i might give my life for.
>>8142721
Not what he said.
He said the first trips would be inherently dangerous, and death is a possibility, as was the case for the Apollo astronauts. Then get better over time, as infrastructure builds up.
But high level retards interpret it as "people will absolutely die on the first trip".
>>8142721
he is right. there will be many unpredictable failures at first. but this doesn't mean we shouldn't try it. we need space travel in the future to survive.
>>8146225
>>8146237
No he said probably. There is a big difference between hazard and risk. Hazard is the potential to cause harm. Sex is hazardous because of AIDS. Risk is your actual chance of harm. Sex is not risky because of condoms. You are trying to cop out by saying he's just admitting space is hazardous, no he's saying that traveling on his spacecraft is risky. No shit space is hazardous but risk is entirely up to the competence of the company. Therefore he has tacitly admitted that SpaceX is incompetent seeing as he's totally given up on lowering the risk of a trip to Mars.
SpaceX BTFO
I'd have no problem facing probable death, if I had the opportunity to go to Mars.
Of course, people see it with the prism of NASA, that can't fathom putting people in harms way, being a public thing.
While Apollo 1, and both shuttle failure were tragic, they induced significant improvements on the vehicles.
One day, in the future, some guy or girl will die traveling to or on Mars. That's a 100% probability.What's important is what we can learn from it.
>>8146251
Commuting is inherently dangerous. Even walking is.
>>8146260
Yep it's hazardous but it's not risky if you look where you're going. What's your point?
>>8146263
Let's put it this way.
Would you rather go to America from Europe with Colombus's ships, or on the RMS Titanic?
>>8146264
I repeat, what is your point?
>>8146275
My point is, you can't even move without the prospect of death hitting you, as improbable as it is.
Would you rather not move, then?
>>8146077
>>Venus
>What? NASA is not sending any spacecraft to Venus?
Translating: It will take balls to go to Mars.
Do you have balls?
>>8146279
You're a tard. I already explained the difference between hazard and risk.
>>8146285
Oh
Fun fact they were actually going to go to Venus. A fly-by.
>>8146303
So what's your fucking point then?
Saturn V was a fucking hazardous thing to ride.
Why did the astronauts do it?
You'll find your answer as to why people will ride on the SpaceX rocket. And be proud of it, no matter the outcome.
>>8146314
But it wasn't risky you dickhead. Musk just admitted his MCT will be risky. That's the difference
There will never be a SpaceX rocket because it's a meme company with more fantasies than money
Kill yourself
>>8146319
Never risky. Apollo 13 rings a bell?
How about apollo 12 that was stuck by lightning?
He just said there will absolutely be death in space in the future. That's like saying there will be death on the road next year.
>>8143883
>When Challenger blew up NASA was rightly pilloried
lmao how? That cult of personality Musk has is annoying sure but really you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
After all of the investigating, the haranguing, and the questioning the sum total of the Rogers Commission resulted in making NASA figure out how to fix it's own problems. Your "the public OUTRAGE will make things happen!" didn't even end in a slap on the wrist, it barely ended in a "well figure it out, whatever" from the government.
>>8146077
>He wasn't discussing ethics he was just being unethical. He doesn't give a fuck about the lives of his customers, he's a monster
That isn't at all what he said or how he said it, use some fucking reading comprehension.
Even in the article the sentence above his quote explains the context and the content clearly enough.
>Technology entrepreneur Elon Musk is really excited about getting the first humans to land on Mars in 2025 with the view to establishing a colony, but in case you didn't realise this already, he is warning that pioneering a new planet probably won't be much fun.
Surprise, going to another planet is absurdly dangerous and because of that people probably will die. Who would have thought? It's almost like the entire Soviet program wasn't a deathtrap and NASA's suffered several fatal accidents and did jack shit about it. See above, it's a great example of "nobody cares."
Life is dangerous, you had best get used to it.
>>8142721
Let us...take five seconds to appreciate the fact he is not aiming for the fricken moon.
I mean WHY IS HE NOT GOING TO THE MOON!?
It's WAY closer....
Fucking hell...
>>8146329
Which is exactly what happens every time.
Of course they're sincerely sorry.
Of course they get to the root of whatever happened.
They weren't purposely trying to kill them.
Do you think SpaceX would send anyone up there while thinking they didn't do the maximum to ensure their safety?
Do you think that will be enough?
The answer is probably not, but there's nothing we can do about it until we're shown what we did wrong.
>>8146329
>Did they die? no?
Different anon here (see my post here about how your line of thinking is wrong: >>8146337) but yes, there were deaths in the Apollo program. Everyone in NASA half-expected the moon landing to fail at a few points, and yes the president was fully prepared to make the "lmao whoops!" speech.
>>8146329
>>Your family flies on a plane
>>Plane crashes and kills them all
>>You're left distraught
>>Airline tells you "oh well shit happens, not our problem"
>>This is perfectly acceptable
>Assburgers everyone.
That's... that's exactly what happens though. Airlines will try to wiggle out of responsibility because they're a business and unsurprisingly paying millions of dollars to the families of dead people doesn't help the company's bottom line. When they do pay it's with the least amount of money possible, because again, the less money that they bleed the better it is for them.
>>8146340
Oh man there's no point in continuing to argue with an autist. Tact. Read about it.
>>8146352
>Oh man there's no point in continuing to argue with an autist. Tact. Read about it.
"I gave a bad example and now two people are calling me an idiot, I better get out of here!"
Are you going to respond to my post or are you going to go run and cry?
Spaceflight is dangerous, there's an acceptable margin of error in every transportation system available and this is widely understood in the aerospace community. It's dumb dickheads like you who expect us to make everything 110% safe and then you get angry when we can't. Real life doesn't work like that, your car isn't 110% safe, even your house isn't, there's a small risk factor that's deemed acceptable because it's not likely to show up during normal operations throughout it's lifetime.
Nothing is completely safe.
>>8146352
Do you really, actually, think a mission to Mars could be accomplished without risk?
What's the minimal risk to a crew you think would be to a crew if anything went south?
Even if you built the Nasa Vasimir starship, you would be subject to the exact same risk, if not more.
What's your proposal, exactly? Keep sending robots there until we actually become robots?
>>8146305
"if America's new spacecraft succeeds in reaching Venus, we will have literally reached the stars before midnight tonight."
He was talking about Mariner 2 on its way to Venus.
(...and it's "literally reached the stars" not "literally before midnight", it was still a few months from reaching Venus, and I guess Venus was literally a star in Kennedy's mind)
>>8142811
>You may or may not get to Mars alive
I think he means that they'll die on mars.
>>8146077
>He wasn't discussing ethics he was just being unethical. He doesn't give a fuck about the lives of his customers, he's a monster
i was talking about the thread, not him.
risks should to be calculated and ethical judgements made, obviously.
>>8146077
Having childen in that environment is actually more unethical than sending people to die there. If they know the probability that they'll die and they consent anyway, it's their own choice. Their children don't have a choice but to suffer.
Plus polluting Mars with human shit is also unethical, metaphorically speaking. Human politics and suffering-causation will make it a worse planet than it is now.
>>8142721
Why is everyone so overly emotional on the internet now? What the fuck happened?
>>8142729
I like it, it's refreshingly blunt.
>>8147420
>it's their own choice
the corporation itself should be held to ethical judgement, is my belief
>>8142984
She was a beauty
>>8147625
If they lie to people about the risk, misrepresent it somehow or act without consent, then yes. If it leads to children being born on mars, then yes. I think you could even judge them for polluting mars, bringing future suffering there or destroying its natural features.
But the death of someone who consented to the risk knowingly is not anyone's moral fault. If you want to smoke cigarettes knowing all about the danger, the tobacco company is not morally wronging you.
>>8147642
i disagree, the law does too. corporations should be held to rigorous ethical standards
i don't like your tobacco analogy and think it's inept, it's rather complex issues, take euthanasia for example
>>8147674
Voluntary euthanasia should be legal, everything else denies existential self-ownership of the person.
Anyone who denies existential self-ownership should be drowned head-first in boiling oil, no exceptions.
>>8147678
i disagree again, self-ownership and assisted suicide are not synonymous
>>8147691
The negative right to assisted suicide is a logical inevitability, given self-ownership.
If you deny self-ownership of other people, you are a disgusting parasite that should be skinned alive in a public space to set an example for everyone else. If you disagree with this most basic moral truth, you deserve to die in pain.
Voluntarily risking your life is probably the one thing that is NOT immoral about Mars colonization.
>>8147642
> I think you could even judge them for polluting mars, bringing future suffering there or destroying its natural features.
Why do people think that protecting the sanctity of a lifeless rock in space is more important than furthering the advancement of mankind into the stars? Just the research benefit of actually having people there is enormous. I totally agree with you on the right of choice though. Just like a bee colony will lose a few scouts in the search of a new hive. People going into space of their own free will to the benefit of all mankind even knowing the dangers. There are people on earth who would sacrifice anything to travel to another planet. Who are others to say that their goal is immoral? The more ambitious the goal, the more dangerous. That doesn't mean the goal should not be attained.
>>8147706
I don't care about the suffering of the people who consent, just the suffering of others. The children dying on Mars certainly did not consent.
The "advancement of mankind into the stars" would mostly lead to involuntary suffering, not voluntary suffering.
>>8147706
>Why do people think that protecting the sanctity of a lifeless rock in space is more important than furthering the advancement of mankind into the stars?
Because polluting a prime research target pollutes our valuable data with bullshit that we accidentally put there. It's inevitable, but we should do it as slowly as possible and avoid anything more major than building a small research colony base for 2-3 decades.
>>8147696
again, you don't lose self-ownership by being denied death
>>8147696
Fucking suicidal teenagers. Assisted suicide is a legal shitstorm that is obviously hard to distinguish from, as just one example, taking advantage of mentally ill people to enact eugenics. THAT is why. There is no way to do it that doesn't open up a massive can of worms and get the public upset for ten different reasons. Dead men tell no tales, and that's a fucking problem when others start questioning if procedure was followed properly.
>>8147726
Again, you are a disgusting parasite who deserves to die in pain.
>>8147728
Nice rationalization, parasite.
Next up: "you don't lose self-ownership by being enslaved and raped, hurr durr"
>>8147744
I don't think I owe you any arguments, as the case is very clear-cut logically. You're the one who repeats "inept analogy" without offering anything of substance to back it up.
You obviously want to rationalize your biases, like all parasites. I understand we live in a world of violence where only the laws of physics apply, in a strict sense no one can force you not to deny others self-ownership or lie through your teeth while winning an election, etc.
Of course, the same laws of physics allow me to burn your shit down or sabotage your projects if I don't like the society I'm seeing. I think people with your attitude are a good example why humanity should go extinct rather than to spread and survive. Your bullshit is devoid of value.
>>8147732
>i can't argue your points so i'm going to insult you and slippery slope the whole topic
Thanks for emphasizing that you are an emotional teenager so I don't waste any more time on you.
>>8147761
Nice evasion, parasite. Just ignore all the points I made.
Fun fact: You will keep paying retaliation costs whether you acknowledge it or not. Violating other people's self-ownership isn't free, no matter the excuses you made up in your own shitty little head.
>>8147751
did you imply this sizeable post to be the "very clear-cut logic"?
>>8142729
In the conclusion of his report on the Challenger disaster, Dr. Richard Feynman said "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."
A mission to Mars would be a tremendous achievement, but dangers exist and there is no nice way to put it without being dishonest.
>>8142773
Some people have ambitions beyond a comfortable life. Plenty of people are willing to give that up to do something they feel is worth far more.
It's not hard to see how living on another world never before inhabited by mankind would appeal to people like that.
>>8142721
I thinks its good he's saying this. People aren't used to people dying when travelling. Sure, every now and then an airplane crashes, but generally world wide travel is very safe. It used to be very very dangerous, where trade ships had to sail for months, and people got sick and died, or drowned when fallen overboard. People knew these risks and they knew travelling was dangerous. We still did it. But nowadays, there isn't much danger associated with travelling anymore. This is a good thing, all the rules and regulations that apply to airlines made this happen.
However, the risk of going somewhere nobody has ever been cannot be overstated enough. People need to realize what it really is we're doing here. Its incredible awesome, but also incredibly dangerous. The issue is that if one of the first missions fails, the financial backlash could ruin the entire enterprise of going to mars. If people know beforehand how real the dangers and risks are, this backlash can be minimized or avoided. This is why Musk is saying this now.
>>8144584
>just how reactionary the American public can be
The public can be surprisingly supportive of good things if it's pitched right. You just can't expect it to be a rational conclusion.
>>8142888
Well, actually probably might be the right word.
If he intends to send the number of people he says he wants to on such a long mission, some are expected to die, even if nothing goes disastrously wrong.
So, "some people will probably die does" not necessarily mean "there will probably be a catastrophic mission failure killing everyone".
>>8147826
>t used to be very very dangerous, where trade ships had to sail for months, and people got sick and died, or drowned when fallen overboard. People knew these risks and they knew travelling was dangerous. We still did it.
The difference is that there was something livable on the other side. Self-sustaining colonies were relatively easy to set up, then they even paid a return in trade.
You'd have to be an extreme techno-optimist to say anything like this about Mars. It's unclear how the people left on Earth ever benefit from it. I don't see enough funding from the extreme pioneer spirit types to make a self-sufficient colony.
>>8142721
Wait you mean people will DIE? But what will happen to them? Is there a heaven on Mars?
>>8146367
>Even if you built the Nasa Vasimir starship, you would be subject to the exact same risk
No you wouldn't because Vasimir can actually get to Mars before the radiation kills you.
I'm looking forward to it. i'll have a good laugh as the egomaniacal space cowboys suffocate or explode.
Then everybody will shed a fake tear as if they didn't have it coming.
>>8148412
No it can't.
Vasimir is just bs to justify not going to Mars.
Mark my words. It will never do anything significant beyond boosting the ISS orbit.
>>8142840
I take it you won't be buying a ticket.
But others will, and will have their names in history books, for better or for worse.
>>8146402
Venus is the evening star.
>>8148516
This.
>>8142751
>>8142751
This guy is 100% correct. Unfortunately, cowards and pinko trash will call him out as being an "autist". People in this thread make it sound like Musk WANTS to kill his astronauts.
>>8147822
Bingo!
>>8142840
It's fine that you are afraid of going to space but unfortunately people like you will and are hindering space exploration.
>>8148591
Boo fucking whoo. Cry me a river.
>>8142721
Why aim for Mars later when you can make the moon now?
Elpn should first try colonising the moon....
>>8142721
>every year countless die fighting on some silly war
>innocents get bombed or shot dead without even knowing why
>thousands starve to death
>hur dur that's life
>some of the willing volunteers colonizing a whole new world may die
>everyone's panties launch into orbit
Planet of the Apes is where we are. Fucking idiots.
>>8144625
>I have much more faith in the Canadian public acting rationally
Meanwhile in Reality, Trudeau is still the PM
>>8147877
?
space colonies today are going to be far easier proportionately than sending people across the ocean in 1500's
I don't think you understand how many people died of disease/accidents/bad nutrition doing that
>>8142721
kek
Is this article from Jezebel?
>>8150782
It's a tragedy when high-quality people die. It doesn't matter how many nogs die fighting over which kind of deity worship is the best, but we should protect the lives of people who have the potential to be astronauts.
>>8150782
you justify the devaluation of people's lives by saying others don't care but we do infact
major autism
>>8143587
the mightiest kek
>>8142729
When the doctor comes in to tell you what you have, they don't tip-toe around it. They tell you straight up because you need to hear the truth.
>>8142815
Those people didn't go off into the woods to propel humanity into the future.
I think this is slightly different. People might die for a reasonable cause in this situation, anon.
>>8147877
Not to mention that even if all that shit happened to you on the ship, including falling overboard, there is still a tiny chance of living. Because you still have stuff to breathe. Because land is relatively close by. Because you can move around in the water.
I love the idea of space travel, but if you get sick, stranded, etc. out there, you're dead mate.
what connection speeds with earth internet can we expect on mars?
>>8152152
Baud is going to be ok, but latency is terrible.
>this thread
Wowee I never knew so many reputedly intelligent people could be so easily led to their deaths
>you only get one short life
>after that eternal oblivion
>"let's throw it all away to stand on some dumb rock!"
>>8142721
He's being honest.
>>8152963
Let's throw it all away working 40 years, raising disappointing childs, getting chemo for some random cancer and dying in our beds ?
Whatever the angle you look at it, it's a waste.
>>8142729
>Musk
>soulless
Please take a second to think just how stupid your comment actually was. Using soulless to describe a guy like Musk doesn't even begin to make sense. The man is the embodiment of passion and drive. This is the guy who went from "put pretty plants on Mars for a few hours" to "owner and founder a $15 billion commercial satellite launch service that also makes reusable rockets and capsules to take cargo or crew to the International Space Station. Also, we're working on a Mars Mission" in less than fifteen years. Jesus, the guy even risked every penny he owned to save his two companies when they experienced almost simultaneous catastrophes ( failure of flight 3 falcon 1 and gearbox problems with Tesla Roadster). Elon Musk might not always be the most eloquent speaker, but he's got drive unmatched by anyone else that I've heard of (living at least).
>>8142835
>Yes, they expected to survive, because they spoke to the engineers of their vehicles who had well-researched estimates about their chances of dying. The chances of dying were always pretty low.
Tell that to the poor bastard who piloted Soyuz-1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_1
>>8142851
You're right. When it carries it's first crew to Mars, the Mars Colonial Transporter will be an incredibly safe and well-made spacecraft with less than a 1 in 1000 chance of something going catastrophically wrong during the mission. The first astronauts to visit the red planet (or colonists, if you will) are going to arrive there safely and in one piece. As will the second crew. And the third, and the fourth, and so on. However, Elon Musk wants to establish a city of thousands, potentially even millions on mars before he dies. Therefore, it's going to require a lot of spaceflights, on the order of tens of thousands of passenger and cargo trips. The probability of something going wrong on at least one of these missions is suddenly not such a distant prospect. The sheer number of flights will probably ensure some sort of unforeseeable catastrophe taking place, and unfortunately people are going to die. Planes routinely fall out of the sky killing hundreds of people at a time, yet we have no problem flying on them because the individual chance of a catastrophic in-flight failure taking place is incredibly low.
>>8143661
That's a big dragon
This thread was a real treat. Never really knew just how autistic /sci/ was until now. The combination of /x/ and /r9k/ is truly terrifying.
>>8153489
Thanks for the laugh.
>>8142984
>a dog has contributed more to human advancement than most of us will
>>8147715
civilisation was built on involuntary suffering.
>>8148474
who killed your dreams anon
>>8150840
yes but that was when nationalism still meant something
>>8152227
>Going to Mars is not a reasonable cause.
then we are doomed as a species
>>8153489
>I hate my life therefore everyone should get themselves blown up trying to get to Mars on a shitty meme rocket
Nice projection, I enjoy my life on Earth thank you very much.
>>8153515
>people actually believe this bullshit
And /sci/ has the audacity to laugh at religious "sheep"
>>8153500
>The man is the embodiment of passion and drive
>Musketeers actually believe this
Nigga, he's just one more business man. Stop sucking his dick, it's pathetic.
>>8154164
>Nigga, he's just one more business man. Stop sucking his dick, its pathetic.
>Musk ''realists'' actually believe this
Nigga, he's a business man with passion and drive. He's not a genius but working 100 hour work weeks for over a decade in companies that were probably going to fail and make him lose all his money just so he could have a chance to advance humanity in a small way looks like passion and drive to me.
>>8154202
>that were probably going to fail and make him lose all his money
Bwahahahaha, no one starts a company expecting to loose money you dumb fuck.
>>8154205
Bwahahahaha, Elon originally was going to buy Russian ICBMs with his paypal bux for the sole purpose of putting a plant on Mars to try and get NASA's budget increased and then decided to build his own rockets because the Russians were over charging them you dumb fuck. Musk is no fucking normie, call him a dumbass for trying (even though its working out great) but both his ventures were the last thing you would want to do if you purely wanted to make more money.
>>8154216
This post has no relation to anything that's been said.
>call him a dumbass for trying
Can you not read? I'm not calling him a dumbass, I'm calling you a dumbass, you fucking dumbass,
>>8154224
>This post has no relation to anything that's been said.
>Elon originally was going to buy Russian ICBMs with his paypal bux for the sole purpose of putting a plant on Mars to try and get NASA's budget increased and then decided to build his own rockets because the Russians were over charging them you dumb fuck.
You said no one starts a company expecting to lose money. I proved you wrong.
>call him a dumbass for trying
This part specifically has nothing to do with your argument, you are correct.
>Can you not read? I'm not calling him a dumbass, I'm calling you a dumbass, you fucking dumbass,
It seems like you're the one who can't read if you didn't realize I countered your point in my short post.
> I'm calling you a dumbass, you fucking dumbass,
Why am I a dumbass again, because I countered your point?
>>8154236
>I proved you wrong.
No you didn't, all you showed is that he started with one plan and then changed it when he realised that he could probably make more money by going his own way.
>>8154241
>reading comprehension
>Bwahahahaha, no one starts a company expecting to loose money you dumb fuck.
>no one starts a company expecting to loose money
>starts a company expecting to lose money
>Elon Musk started a company expecting to lose all his money just to try and get NASA's budget increased.
>>8154246
At what point have you shown he expected to loose money? All you've shown is that he thought the Russians were charging too much so changed his plan, almost like he wanted to maximise his profit.
God Musketeers are insufferable.
>>8146221
This tbqh
The first person to die on Mars is getting a city named after them on the planet.
>>8154251
You can't be this stupid
>At what point have you shown he expected to loose money?
The part where his plan was to buy 3 expendable Russian intercontinental ballistic missiles to try and put a plant on Mars.
A plant on Mars does not generate profit.
The whole purpose of the mission was to put that plant on Mars to try and motivate the US and to get NASA's budget increased.
If NASA got their budget increased, SpaceX would have seen none of it.
All the engineers and technicians would have gotten there pay checks.
The missiles would have been used up.
There would be a plant on Mars.
No money to be made.
Musk skepti- my bad, ''realists'' occasionally have good points, but what is truly insufferable is dumbasses like you that can't read.
I recap
>no one starts a company expecting to loose money
>Musk started a company expecting to lose money with the sole goal of increasing NASA's budget.
>He expected to lose money because putting a plant on Mars does not generate any profit.
>>8154275
*their
>>8142729
Fucking kill yourself you complete waste I can't believe I have to share this planet with offal like you
>>8154275
Fine anon, Elon is the next Messiah he's only ever had humanities best interests at heart. He just wants to advance humanity. Which is why SpaceX, Tesla and that other company no one ever remembers are all not for profit.
>>8154292
You're moving the goal post
>>8154275
>Actual Musk fanboys
This isn't actually a thing, right? Someone please tell me it's all shitposting.
>>8154307
I wouldn't call my self a fanboy of Musk but I am willing to correct misinformation thrown at him by people who only hate him because fanboys hype him up to be some super genius that going to single handedly save the world.
>shitposting
I don't believe countering a dumbass's invalid point is shitposting.
>>8154275
He never did this, it's just a tale to get dumb sheep like you believing that he's "not like other businessmen"
>>8154322
>He never did this, it's just a tale to get dumb sheep like you believing that he's "not like other businessmen"
This is just a claim with no proof based on a cynical belief that no one could possibly want to build a company to do something other than to purely make money. I have no absolute proof for my claim either so I guess there's nothing left to say.
>>8142729
Just kill yourself
>>8154336
No one has ever made a company with the intention of losing money
Doing so would be supremely retarded
He is just planning to get rich by pouring Kool-Aid down your throats
If he was so noble why isn't he risking his own life for the first trip?
>>8142721
Burgerland would still be cornhills, Indjuns and teepee huts if it weren't for fucking explorers that set out to never return and most likely die in the pursuit of greatness and their name in history. In fact, you wouldn't have niggers if the Portuguese never set out to discover the African continent. So it's a double edged knife - greatnes and adventure on one side, death and niggers on the other
>>8154689
>No one has ever made a company with the intention of losing money
I just presented you with an example of someone who did. If you're going to claim with no evidence that everything he said about his early spaceX days is just lies so he could motivate people to work for him for slightly less than competitors so he could make a little more money a decade later then we have nothing else to discuss like I already said in my previous post.
>Doing so would be supremely retarded
If your goal was solely to make money.
>He is just planning to get rich
Was he ( at 300,000,000 dollars ), and is he ( at a net worth of 12 billion ) not already rich?
>by pouring Kool-Aid down your throats
That doesn't apply to the original point about no one making a company with the intention of losing money.
>If he was so noble why isn't he risking his own life for the first trip?
He has considered it in interviews but he would do much more good down here running his companies. Let the people who are skilled in their department do their job. If no one else much much more qualified than him would do it until he did it first for some reason then I'm sure he would do it but that's up to speculation.
>>8142729
are you low IQ xD
>>8143595
Yeah, and ISS has 0 gravity, but we still have astronauts staying for monts to a year there, SURVIVING.
>>8143447
>The first man in space survived
>the first American in space survived
>the first men on the moon survived
>countless of people go to the ISS and survive
So why should we lower our standards and expectations for Mars? Space can be made safe with the proper work done. If Elon Meme can't guarantee a 95% survival chance on the mission, then he shouldn't send people. He should send dogs, or monkeys, or robots.
>>8154783
what a load of retardation and bullshit.
The Moors conquered Spain and Portugal. The Egyptians were much darker during the height of egypt. Even Subsaharan Africa had Empires. Isolate empires, sure, but still.
And the Americas were beginning their agricultural revolution when Europeans showed up. Societies advance no matter what. They advance quicker when there is higher population density, and easy access to trade, like along the Mediterranean sea and the silk road.
Without Europeans, shit would've happened eventually. Probably with less genocide and rape. Which is why their empires self destructed and had to be saved by Americans.
>>8155033
>with less genocide and rape
Haha sure keep telling yourself that anon, it's funny how people like you hold white people to a different moral standard than everybody else. Humans conquer, that's just a fact. Nobody gives a shit when neighboring tribes rape and kill each other, but suddenly when white people do it it's muh genecide. How about being consistent for once
>>8143389
The "most useless" in this case would be you.
>>8155033
>Without Europeans, shit would've happened eventually.
Thats a bold assertion you are making, of peoples who made literally nothing for thousands of years to suddenly have industrial revolutions
Would the chinks eventually have made it here? Yea sure.. maybe...
Would any of these brown 70 iq mud races? Never
>Probably with less genocide and rape.
White hating bernie sanders supporter detected.
Ain't it funny how they can just invent a completely new history, then call other people ignorant for not knowing their delusions.
>>8155719
Islam was civilizing Africa long before the Europeans turned up. And the Aztec and Inca were getting there all on their own. White people had to come along and fuck up everything.
>>8156118
whatever lies you gotta tell yourself to sleep at night, poo skin
