I myself do not believe in the idea of being transgender, but I do see how one can believe in the idea. I would like to hear you guys' explanations on your belief on the topic.
>If anyone actually responds to this bullshit, I expect anger.
>>8116373
Gender dysphoria is definitely a thing. You can take that however you want.
It's a mental disorder like Schizophrenia, but for some reason it's considered unacceptable to suggest treatment or counseling.
>>8116406
Sex reassignment is the treatment but for some reason it's considered unacceptable by society
>>8116373
I think even if it's bullshit, we should embrace transgender people as a society. If it's legit, good for them. If it's just a case of the grass being greener on the other side, the easiest way to help them realize is to let them try it and find out.
>>8116447
>Butchering your penis into an open flesh wound
>Treatment
Pick one and only one
>>8116373
mentally ill people who need real help instead of being enabled.
>>8116373
I don't care about transgender because it doesn't matter. Chop off your dick and call yourself a girl idc what other people do with their fuckin lives.
>>8116390
That doesn't really mean anything tho. I mean, schizophrenics believing they are Napoleon or Jesus is a thing as well, and probably more common.
>>8116416
>Treating it as delusions is even more harmful to the transgender person, if that's what you're suggesting.
Harmful in what way?
Don't post hormone/surgery transsexuals have higher suicide rates? But for some reason that's considered an acceptable treatment...
Also, consider the fact that when left to their own devices, the majority of people who experience gender dysphoria or similar thoughts during childhood, will be completely over it by the time they finish puberty/into their 20's.
This fact alone is pretty good evidence that supporting the delusions is very dangerous, imagine how hard it would hit you if you grow out of it but the medical establishment allowed you to mutilate your genitals a few years earlier.
I am not however saying we should 'treat it as a delusion' as such, in that you need to be very compassionate and caring, like with any mental illness.
>>8116373
>I myself do not believe in the idea of being transgender
Uh, that's pretty much on par with not believing in colour blindness or homosexuality.
>>8116562
>I mean, schizophrenics believing they are Napoleon or Jesus is a thing as well,
Why do the same dumb points get dragged up in every one of these threads? Transgender people aren't delusional - they don't think their bathroom mirror is lying to them or some shit.
Dysphoria != Delusion. One is a irrational belief about the world, the other is dissonance caused by the body not matching one's own identity.
>>8116531
>Treatment
It resolves an issue that's harming the patient, and results in a measurable improvement to quality of life.
The fact that it makes you personally uncomfortable is not sufficient to disqualify it from being considered a treatment.
>>8116573
>Don't post hormone/surgery transsexuals have higher suicide rates?
No, they have substantially LOWER suicide rates than pre-treatment.
If you're reading from the paper I think you are, it showed that post-surgery suicide rates were higher than the general population, not transgender people pre-surgery.
>Also, consider the fact that when left to their own devices, the majority of people who experience gender dysphoria or similar thoughts during childhood, will be completely over it by the time they finish puberty/into their 20's.
That sounds like complete and utter bullshit. Do you have a source?
>>8116550
>idc what other people do with their fuckin lives.
This is a perfectly reasonable view.
>>8116611
>Do you have a source?
I was going to ask you the same thing.
Problem is "gender identity" is hard to define, and it's usually done in 2 different ways.
A: If 51% of the things I liked were feminine some people would say I'd have a female identity. Because I have a penis, that would make me transgendered. In reality that's a better description of the word queer; just being a feminine man. Being unusual doesn't cause intrinsic harm or problems though so it isn't a mental illness by this definition
B: If I truly thought that I was a female, it'd be gender dysphoria. These people actually have hormone imbalances and sometimes physical differences in brain folds. It creates an uncomfortable feeling within their own skin that is constantly causing discomfort and inhibits their ability to live life.
B is the better definition in my opinion. A feminine male who knows he is a male isn't transgendered to me. Almost all of the internet arguments I've seen about transgendered people are using two different definitions.
>>8116373
Here's my thought:
If you're mentally broken enough to have gender dysphoria then you have been selected by the genome to be removed from further continuation of your genetic line. So no problem, have at it.
>>8116611
>Why do the same dumb points get dragged up in every one of these threads?
Because they are relevant and poignant, you disagreeing with them doesn't change that.
>Delusion. One is a irrational belief about the world
You mean like believing your chromosomes are lying and that you need to mutilate your genitals?
>That sounds like complete and utter bullshit. Do you have a source?
Yes, do you?
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
>The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.
>>8116622
I'm not an idiot, I'm not a SJW snowflake, all I want to do is play music all day but this gender dysphoria follows me everywhere. It would be a giant advantage for me to stay a man but I am force by my emotions to be like this.
I don't even care about getting snowflakey attention or being different I just want to look in the mirror and feel ok
Biological correlate with prenatal androgen exposure mostly.
>>8116627
retard
>>8116633
That's ok man, do what you have to do. Just don't pass your genes on to another human so they don't have to go through the same bullshit you do. It's only common courtesy.
Hormones = Spectrum
Chromosomes = Spectrum
Genitalia = Spectrum
Brain = Spectrum
Cultural = Spectrum
>>8116643
Mental illness isn't genetic.
Genes can only account for a maximum of 13% heritability.
This is why all organizations support the Bio-psycho-social model.
How you're ignorant of that is beyond me since you have internet access and can KNOW everything that's available.
Don't pass your genes on. Stupidity is inherited.
>>8116643
The men on my mom's side were all music virtuosios or technical genuises too bad I'm infertile from tranny pills, lol!
>>8116658
well you're also not a man, according to your own self perception, so it's probably for the best?
>>8116652
I never said that gender dysphoria is a mental illness you stupid fuck; sounds like you're a real cunt. It's obvious that something came together to cause this issue for the guy so it's best not to risk recreating this, or a worse version of it, in another human being. nigger.
>>8116611
>>idc what other people do with their fuckin lives.
>This is a perfectly reasonable view.
There's nothing reasonable about it the moment you realize everyones actions affect everyone.
For anyone who doesn't know, this is the exact point where you should concede to loosing the argument:
>>8116637
>>8116652
>Mental illness isn't genetic.
/sci/ trashes on biology but then we get retards who say this.
>>8116622
>I know absolutely nothing about evolutionary biology, but I pretend to use it to validate my social views
>>8116672
that was my first post in the thread, retard.
>>8116616
>I was going to ask you the same thing.
Last thread someone dumped these. Guess it's my turn:
https://www.skane.se/Upload/Webbplatser/USIL/Dokument/Sjukhusbibliotek/Johansson,%20Annika.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2265.2009.03625.x/abstract;jsessionid=B762F82F4564FB01651D68B07C5AEEAB.f01t04?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20461468
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734_An_Analysis_of_All_Applications_for_Sex_Reassignment_Surgery_in_Sweden_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15842032
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1158136006000491
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1024086814364#/page-1
tl;dr sex reassignment substantially improves outcomes in a significant majority of cases.
>>8116620
B is the normal definition. I've not heard anyone seriously call a feminine man "transgender".
>>8116627
>Because they are relevant and poignant,
They're not.
Not liking something is not a delusion. Feeling uncomfortable because of something is not a delusion. In order to make any kind of claim that transgenderism is a delusion you have to redefine at least one of those words past the point of absurdity.
>You mean like believing your chromosomes are lying and that you need to mutilate your genitals?
Like I said, redefining words to mean absurd things.
>The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex
You're misreading that paper: it's a comparison between reassigned people and the general population. It doesnt say the treatment makes things worse.
>>8116666
>I never said that gender dysphoria is a mental illness you stupid fuck
It is, though?
This isn't exactly a matter of opinion.
>>8116670
>There's nothing reasonable about it the moment you realize everyones actions affect everyone.
How does it harm everyone?
>>8116678
What's the problem with being OK with trannies perpetuating their delusions as long as it's not being passed down/instilled to children/impressionable people? Evolutionary biology has nothing to do with chopping your dick or your tits off because you don't feel that you should have been born that way. Are you obtuse?
>>8116690
>>8116666
It's not an illness, it's a break in the psyche-identity. Illness implies that there is a malady; trannies aren't sick, they are simply broken in terms of self-identity. Thus they shouldn't be "fixed" they should just be allowed to live happily, and then die out.
Also, satanic trips of truth.
>>8116675
Show proof then.
Dr Allen Frances resigned as the APA DSM chair editor because companies were promoting the bio-bio-bio model when all research clearly shows the bio-psycho-social model is more accurately supported.
APA, NIMH and WHO all support the BPS model.
>http://bigthink.com/devil-in-the-data/mental-illness-its-not-in-your-genes
It seems many people think transexuals are delusional.
Suppose for a moment that I want to become a girl because I feel like a girl on the inside.
Can someone tell me how this would be delusional? It would be how I feel, and you cannot tell me otherwise.
>>8116695
>What's the problem with being OK with trannies perpetuating their delusions as long as it's not being passed down/instilled to children/impressionable people?
Hint: this is the part where you look like a fool that doesn't understand evolution. What you 'think' is a good trait has absolutely nothing to do with what evolution selects. Taller, stronger, and more socially acceptable does not mean 'better' in the vocabulary of evolution.
>Are you obtuse?
I'm acutely pissed off at your pseudoscience.
>>8116696
>trannies aren't sick
lel
>>8116699
How about you add "suppose I also want to horribly mutilate my genitals to deal with how I feel on the inside" to your hypothetical...
Again:
Hormones = Spectrum
Chromosomes = Spectrum
Genitalia = Spectrum
Brain = Spectrum
Cultural = Spectrum
No one is commenting on my flawless argument.
>>8116696
>trips
>>8116704
Not sure if b8, but I agree with everything on there but chromosomes. Even when you're dealing with kleinfelters or whatever, they are discrete amounts of chromosomes, not a fraction or something
>>8116703
how is that bad for anyone except for the person receiving treatment (who believes its good)
They are degenerates
Behavior don't written in our genes. There is no genes who tell you take hormones and cut off you dick. We learning it in society.
>>8116703
How about the following:
Suppose for a moment that I want to become a girl because I feel like a girl on the inside, and as a result I want to have surgery and hormone therapy that will make my body more feminine, which will aid in my hopefully passing for a girl in society.
If this would be delusional, what would be delusional about it?
>>8116718
It doesn't need to be, the medical establishment has an obligation to treat these people properly, its not justified simply by them wanting it. Because research shows that most who don't take hormones or undergo surgery eventually revert to accepting their biological gender. But if they mutilate their genitals, when this inevitably happens they have little left to do but off themselves.
>>8116721
>They are degenerates
>Behavior don't written in our genes. There is no genes who tell you take hormones and cut off you dick. We learning it in society.
Let's be consistent here at least. People like Joan Rivers have undergone procedures arguably just as severe as gender re-assignment, in order to better conform to a self-image that they don't currently have. Are they degenerates too?
>>8116722
Why can't you just call it what it is, self genital mutilation?
>>8116721
>Behavior don't written in our genes. There is no genes who tell you take hormones and cut off you dick. We learning it in society.
Actually it's 50% 50%
It's called the "Nature Vs Nurture" argument, and the Science is crystal clear.
>>8116701
you must be severely retarded. The reason human beings have ended up as bipedal, bigendered creatures is because of evolution. At no point does evolution INVOLVE CUTTING OFF YOUR DICK because you feel like a girl, you STUPID FUCKING MONG. It doesn't matter what I or ANYONE thinks is "GOOD" it's NOT A PART OF THE EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS TO CUT YOUR DICK OFF. idiot
>>8116706
earlier post, genius
>>8116726
Why can't you call it what it is, gender reassignment surgery?
Making up your own names for things that are not accepted by anyone and clearly demonstrate your personal intolerance does not make you clever.
>>8116718
I agree. Why do people care?
So many anti-trans people love to act like they're concerned for trans people's well-being, spouting things like "they're mutilating their genitals" while at the same time talking about how sick, worthless, and broken they are. Like they fucking care?
For fuck's sake, if it makes them feel better (and the vast majority of studies show that SRS improves patient outcomes - as one anon already posted) then let them do it!
Talking trans people out of being trans through therapy was attempted for decades - as it stands now, the best treatment (according to multiple studies) is to let them live as the gender they identify with. I'm sorry - I completely fail to see what's so controversial about that.
>>8116733
>The reason human beings have ended up as bipedal, bigendered creatures is because of evolution.
Agreed, but it was advantageous because it helped us reproduce better in the context of our environment - not because we were taller or faster or whatever. Our cultural concept of 'better' has nothing to do with what evolution selects for. What you are doing right now is perpetuating one of the biggest layman myths about evolution, and you're even acting like you know what you're talking about. For shame.
>At no point does evolution INVOLVE CUTTING OFF YOUR DICK because you feel like a girl, you STUPID FUCKING MONG.
Also agreed. You were the one that brought up evolution to begin with, pretending like evolution is geared towards making humans that don't self-identify with other gender norms. The science is unclear about what actually creates a transgender person, but I guarantee it's an inherent part of human genetics that is expressed more strongly in some people than others - probably as a de novo mutation. Feel free to google that last term because I doubt you've studied any genetics. Even if we started eugenically selecting transgender people for death and sterilization, we would still probably have transgender people.
>It doesn't matter what I or ANYONE thinks is "GOOD" it's NOT A PART OF THE EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS TO CUT YOUR DICK OFF
I can think of plenty of animals that get their genitals destroyed at a certain age. For instance, cats. I doubt this will become common behavior in humans, but it sure as hell happens elsewhere in nature.
![TvGUunHS[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/1oooQ33.jpg "TvGUunHS[1].jpg")
>>8116373
I've seen people do dumber things than cutting their dick and thinking they are women. Nevertheless, they do deserve a darwin award for it though.
>>8116723
you know, i've never seen any actual conclusive evidence of that being the case, but if you could bring some up that would be appreciated
>>8116755
You are a fucking idiot.
You bring up this concept of "better" then say that I'm talking about it?
You equate my example of evolution (NATURAL EVOLUTION) to a "de novo mutation" that drives someone to cut their dick off because they don't feel like a girl? THEN THEY ARE GENETICALLY BROKEN AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN BORN A FEMALE THUS SHOULD NOT PASS THE GENES DOWN THAT MADE THEM DEVELOP DYSPHORIA.
You talk about animals that have their genitals destroyed, BUT THIS DOES NOT MAKE THE ANIMAL THINK IT'S A FEMALE.
You dumb. Ass. Motherfucker. Goddamn I hate SJW's like you.
>>8116763
hahahaha you're retarded
>FUCKING SJWS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>WHY ARE PEOPLE DOING THINGS I DON'T AGREE WITH, EVEN THOUGH IT HAS NO ACTUAL EFFECT ON MY LIFE
>RRREEEEEEEEEEEEEE SJWS
>>8116723
>But if they mutilate their genitals, when this inevitably happens they have little left to do but off themselves.
This is a bad theory for why transgender people commit suicide more often post-op.
Pre-op transgender people do not generally live and express their identity 100% of the time, and that usually changes after they get their operation. Because they are now living as a man/woman 100% of the time, they're exposed to a lot more daily abuse than they were previously experiencing, which accounts for the increase in the suicide rate.
>>8116764
no you're retarded, know why? because your circular and misleading logic has landed you back to where you started posting in reply to my posts. Sitting with your transgendered dick in a jar and thinking of ways to justify it to yourself and people who really don't give a shit.
![Down-Syndrome[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/EX9gnf6.jpg "Down-Syndrome[1].jpg")
>>8116704
genitalia : constant. You don't born with half dick-half vagina. Which is funny enough the only thing that defines your sex.
> but muh social construct gender means more than the biological genitalia that was already determined.
Then you belong to the same category as people who identify themselves as transtesticles, spiderman and mayonnaise.
Pic related
>>8116767
im not the guy you're arguing with, i just jumped in to point out how fucking dumb you are
>getting T R I G G E R E D because people don't agree with you
>incoherent sentence structure and rambling
>actually typing with caps lock as if it makes your points stronger
>is proven wrong with logical reasoning and argument;
>FUCKING ESS JAY DOUBLYAAAAAS
>RRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>8116764
Even if you disagree with him, it's a fact that you fell for transgender memes and cut your dick off and stopped your family tree right there. While the surgeons who made their living and rest of the whole world is laughing at you lmao
>>8116766
How convenient.
>>8116773
not proven wrong. at all. also nice samefagging
>>8116768
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite
How you're ignorant of this is beyond me.
You obviously aren't an honest person.
An honest person studies to see if they're wrong, they don't just go seeking for confirmation bias.
>>8116783
hermaphrodites are a biological phenomenon. cutting your dick off is not. are you serious rn?
>>8116763
>You bring up this concept of "better" then say that I'm talking about it?
You brought it up buddy. Your original argument is that gender dysphoria means you're broken and likely to have your genes phased out of the population by natural selection. The only reason you're making this argument is because you have some sort of mental conception of what makes a human being better. What you think makes someone 'broken' or 'unbroken' has nothing to do with evolution.
>You equate my example of evolution (NATURAL EVOLUTION) to a "de novo mutation" that drives someone to cut their dick off because they don't feel like a girl?
I don't think you understood what I was saying. I'll rephrase it more clearly this time.
I doubt that gender dysphoria is a result of a select number of inherited alleles that can eventually be removed from the gene pool. I think that it's something that happens when brain chemistry is altered in a way that traditionally 'feminine' behavior starts to be expressed more strongly. I suspect that it happens because of mutations that are not inherited from parents.
>Goddamn I hate SJW's like you.
I don't know if I really fit the criteria for a SJW here. I'm having a discussion about science with you, not social justice. I've also ignored pretty much every opportunity that a SJW would take to lecture you on the proper ways to talk about transgender people. I don't really care about your social views so much as the bullshit you're spreading about evolution here. Maybe you should be calling me an EBW (evolutionary biology warrior).
>>8116786
screenshot. or you're full of shit, and btw you've got the words in the wrong order of that first line in your post. I believe you meant to write that you're fucking a straight white male, because you sound like a rapist
>>8116778
>How convenient.
Yeah, yeah, I can see that it's the excuse you might make if other research disagrees with your narrative.
Luckily, we can test this. It's totally possible to investigate whether transgender people actually receive more daily abuse post-operation than before. Then, we can make a more informed conclusion about this that isn't based on anecdotes.
>>8116783
I know what it is you dumbfuck. I liked how you ignore the fact that its only 5% of the entire animal species and an incredibly rare condition among humans.
If the world was up to you, you would think that people born with no arms and legs should be the norm, just because it can occur naturally. I'm so glad nothing is up to you.
>>8116786
> look at me guys !! Look how not mad I am !! Are you convinced yet
> I got no dick D':
just sad...
>>8116794
lol shit you're right
idk what i would have to gain from samefagging here,
>>8116789
that guy is doing is own reasonable argument and i'm doing my own asshole thing
>>8116798
haha what are you on dude
>>8116788
The person I was replying to said there was no such thing as Herms.
I proved them wrong.
But Herms aren't the only debate,
A Trans person often comes from at least one of these background:
Hormones = Spectrum
Chromosomes = Spectrum
Genitalia = Spectrum
Brain = Spectrum
Cultural = Spectrum
Most Trans fit the Brain Spectrum area.
No reductio ad absurdem please.
Most issues are scientifically and epistemologically complex.
>>8116800
You still sounded more polite than triggered transtesticles who get ridiculed all the time lol
>>8116789
ok here we go:
1. Gender dysphoria means your psychology is broken, not that you're genetically broken. However psychological tendency toward mental imbalance is inherited thus those genes should not be passed down so as not to continue the cycle. The argument I am making is not because of what I think is 'better' but because of what I think is 'best' for an unborn/unknowing child. What makes someone prevalent to being 'broken' is most certainly genetic and has everything to do with evolution.
2. You claim that I am guided by my concepts of what is good/better, yet speak on 'traditional' feminine behavior - which is completely against what you're claiming to be your neutral opinion of what's "favorable" for reproduction - since you obviously take as de facto that "feminine" behavior in a male is not "favorable" for remaining that gender - ie. resulting in propagation.
3. You sound like an SJW because your logic is flawed, you can't comprehend what is being written and you're blinded by your own "perception" of what you're presenting as unbiased opinion when in reality it's completely subjective as well as unscientific.
4. You're a moron
>>8116373
>do not believe in the idea
What you believe, and what you do not believe, are irrelevant to reality, fgt pls
>>8116806
retard
>>8116806
>The argument I am making is not because of what I think is 'better' but because of what I think is 'best' for an unborn/unknowing child.
Great, that's eugenics, not evolution. Glad that this conversation has clarified the difference for you.
>You claim that I am guided by my concepts of what is good/better, yet speak on 'traditional' feminine behavior
Traditional feminine behavior, as in the behavior that women express in society, as informed by culture. It's not right or wrong, it's just the behavior that most women express. Are you objecting to my use of the word 'traditional' or my claim that most women adhere to a couple of traits associated with femininity?
>You sound like an SJW because your logic is flawed
Sounds like you're using the word wrong, then. You could just call me a moron, but I'm guessing you prefer SJW because it carries more weight around here.
>You're a moron
There we go.
>>8116819
> women are a monolith
Check your privilege you sexist scum.
>>8116813
kill yourself
>>8116828
nah, i'm not a waste-of-space retard like yourself so there isnt much to gain by offing myself
>>8116825
>Check your privilege you sexist scum.
Should probably refer to it as the traditional spectrum of feminine behavior, but I'm not going to go out of my way to be inclusive on a 4chan post.
Anyway, you're trolling me so this is already way too serious of a response.
>>8116819
Eugenics is directed evolution. Bottlenecks occur naturally and drive evolution. Eugenics are human enforced bottlenecks and are appropriate to human driven deviations (aka chopping your dick off because you feel like a girl) in order to preserve the natural evolutionary process.
I object to your use of the word traditional, as well as your use of "femininity" to somehow (falsely) unlink brain chemistry changes due to some "de novo mutation" from the causal factor of - to quote you - "a select number of inherited alleles" which you don't believe "can eventually be removed from the gene pool"
your logic sucks
>>8116833
Not at all. You associated being feminine with being a needy little fragile faggot which clearly triggers me. You can't make that male-female gender distinction if you can't even label them within binary terms.
Your whole argument is invalid, and all is left is your genitalia, which is the only binary indicator of your sex.
>>8116832
sure there is. you'd never inundate the internet with your shitty thoughts. good enough for me.
>>8116842
i think that my selfless duty of calling retards retards on the internet is a complete necessity
otherwise you might forget you're retarded!
>>8116848
so delusional as well as useless? you're going for the trifecta aren't you - put together with the fact that you're an enormous cock gobbler...I think you just scored a hat trick. Your day ends on a good note eh? Just not for your parents.
>>8116852
what?
>>8116838
>Eugenics is directed evolution.
Except that the key difference between eugenics and evolution is that eugenics is informed by subjective human biases instead of the natural environment. Restricting reproduction to what we think is 'good' is a dangerous thing, because people don't always, or won't always agree that it's good. If you recall, that's why eugenics is associated with Nazis.
There's Godwin's Law for you.
>I object to your use of the word traditional, as well as your use of "femininity" to somehow (falsely) unlink brain chemistry changes from the causal factor of - to quote you - "a select number of inherited alleles"
That wasn't the thread of logic that I was going for. I don't think that the brain chemistry causing gender dysphoria is something that's typically inherited from parents.
There isn't a huge body of evidence pointing one way or another, and I know better than to treat my best guess as law. But gender dysphoria is not commonly known to be passed down through families. If it's not strongly heritable, it either means that the brain chemistry of a transgender person comes from new, de novo mutations, or the combination of many, many different genetic traits that aren't likely to be wiped from the gene pool.
This is something that should be open to scrutiny and definitely investigated further, but I'm confident that it's not possible (or just extremely difficult) to prevent more transgender people from being born.
Myth: This thread has been about sharing science
Fact: /pol/ has returned
Myth: Damn trannies be all stuff in dah head cuz me don't understand it, therefore personal incredulity is gawd
Fact: Human gender is based on a scientifically verified spectrum:
Hormones = Spectrum
Chromosomes = Spectrum
Genitalia = Spectrum
Brain = Spectrum
Cultural = Spectrum
>>8116868
Excuse me, inferior person?
Yes, how is:
>Fact: Human gender is based on a scientifically verified spectrum:
>Hormones = Spectrum
>Chromosomes = Spectrum
>Genitalia = Spectrum
>Brain = Spectrum
>Cultural = Spectrum
Not an argument?
Not to mention it's the only scientific one here.
So, nice try, idiot.
>>8116879
> Not to mention it's the only scientific one here.
Since its the """only scientific one""" in here, you shouldn't have any problem providing evidence that is peer reviewed and published by academic sources for all of them right ?
We're waiting...
>>8116862
you're not addressing my point - in fact you are avoiding it.
eugenics is appropriate for human induced derivations from the natural evolutionary process - because this way it preserves the NATURAL process - aka the kind that doesn't involve taking a scalpel to your body.
you claim that mutations cause brain chemistry changes, but that they aren't inheritable. Seriously? Genes that mutate spontaneously are still mutated, and the new formation of the DNA is translated to the progeny; that's called inherited genetic trait.
removing the CHANCE for this mutation to be passed down, ie. trannies not reproducing (not saying that it should be enforced; like I initially said it is common courtesy) is what will ultimately cull these mutations from the genome.
Again let me reiterate:
if you take a foreign object to your body in order to modify it into a different gender - you are broken. The break comes from susceptibility due to genetic inheritance of a weak mental phenotype - as a reflection of a specific genetic code - and should be encouraged to not propagate.
>>8116701
>>8116733
Not how I'd have put it, second anon. It is however pseudoscientific to believe evolution does in any way prefer one set of traits over one other. It is not better to be taller and stronger for a species, period. Evolution is not development in one direction. Furthermore, evolution does not make you more socially acceptable for the sake of it making you reproduce more. How do you even arrive at this conclusion?
>>8116879
Working dick or Vagina isn't a spectrum, that is a binary system.
One works or one doesn't, or neither work and you are a broken organism.
>>8116882
>If it's scientific, why don't you spend the next hour googling known science and posting it here spoonfeeding me because I don't want to google something that contradicts my beliefs
>Checkmate, /SCI/
Argument from silence is a logical fallacy, you oblivious troll
>>8116891
> I have no evidence for any of it
> posts trollface
Low energy troll you dickless transtesticle. What a shame
>>8116888
>Working dick or Vagina isn't a spectrum, that is a binary system.
Except that it's a well known and established medical and scientific fact there are hundreds of millions of people with what is scientifically called "ambiguous genitalia" as well as a condition known in humans are Pseudohermaphroditism.
How old are you?
How do you not know basic facts a child would know?
>>8116895
hundreds of millions? word? :^/
>>8116894
I posted academic terms.
You can google them.
Again:
Gender Spectrum
And using the argument from silence to declare there is no evidence is known as lying.
The argument from silence/ignorance is a fallacy.
Fallacies mean lies, ok?
>Why do I come to this board when /pol/ is shitposting antiscience and demands counter-proof
>>8116894
Conclusive proof:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/neuroscience-proves-what-_b_6494820.html
>>8116895
What your genitalia looks like doesn't matter. It's the fact that you make viable eggs or viable sperm. Stop being so fixated on mutated sex organs you deviant.
>>8116888
>or neither work and you are a broken organism.
Wait, you think having working gentials is what determines your worth as a person?
Oookay then...
>>8116882
There are multiple distinct definitions of "gender" that are in use, and difference definitions will be used depending on context. What exactly are you wanting a citation for?, because this is a pretty broad subject.
>>8116902
I wouldn't have gone with Hufpost, but some of the studies linked there actually look pretty interesting.
>>8116903
>What your genitalia looks like doesn't matter. It's the fact that you make viable eggs or viable sperm
That seems like both a remarkably specific and a kind of unhelpful definition.
>Stop being so fixated on mutated sex organs you deviant.
You brought this shit up.
>>8116885
>eugenics is appropriate for human induced derivations from the natural evolutionary process - because this way it preserves the NATURAL process - aka the kind that doesn't involve taking a scalpel to your body.
I said this earlier in the thread, but we take scalpels to our bodies for tons of reasons. Do you believe that people who pursue other kinds of cosmetic surgery should be purged from the gene pool? Explain the difference to me.
>you claim that mutations cause brain chemistry changes, but that they aren't inheritable.
That wasn't my claim. Brain chemistry is complicated and behavior doesn't result from a single mutation. If being transgender is fully rooted in genetics (I doubt that it is entirely, and there's not yet evidence to suggest that), then it's multifactorial. It's not terribly likely that a transgender person's child would even receive all of the genes needed for gender dysphoria.
I suspect it's heritable in the same sense that autism is. Strong concordance between twins (there are actually studies looking at twin samples with gender dysphoria), but not necessarily inherited through families or even passed down to children.
>if you take a foreign object to your body in order to modify it into a different gender - you are broken.
This is your own personal view. Translating this into eugenics means that you are pushing your view on future generations, regardless of whether they agree with your decision to label transgender people as broken. This is a dangerous philosophy.
>>8116903
listen fucktard he said billions of people are born with soodo dickginas now stop asking him for proof you can google yourself
>>8116910
Not worth as a person, your gender, that's what this is about. Don't deflect this discussion.
>>8116910
gender is NOT sex you transtesticle. Your penis doesn't magically turn into a vagina just because you feel like it and you magically don't turn int oa woman.
Nobody cares how you identify yourself or will respect it. Just because some mentally challenge people think they're spiderman, people don't call them spiderman.
>>8116914
I said hundreds of millions have ambiguous genitalia.
I didn't say billions were hermaphrodites.
I just mentioned hermaphrodites as an additional concept.
Your reading comprehension is ultra low.
You're barely literate.
>>8116911
we never take scalpels to change what we are. we take scalpels to refine what we already were.
the second point is unarguable, since I'm saying that the genetic factor should be accounted for and not encouraged to propagate, and you seem to conveniently continue ignoring this by presenting an all or nothing scenario as your argument.
The last part is simple fact. You're born with genitals that fulfill a very simple purpose. Either bear a, or impregnate with, child. Human survival instinct is founded on propagation. If you feel like you were not born with appropriate genitalia, then you were simply not meant to propagate. Thus you are broken.
Found it, everyone go home.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism
>There are no documented cases in which both types of gonadal tissue function. Encountered karyotypes are 47XXY, 46XX/46XY, or 46XX/47XXY, and various degrees of mosaicism (with one interesting case of an XY predominant (96%) mosaic giving birth).[7]
Although fertility is possible in true hermaphrodites (as of 2010 there have been at least 11 reported cases of fertility in true hermaphrodite humans in scientific literature),[1] there has yet to be a documented case where both gonadal tissues function; contrary to rumors of hermaphrodites being able to impregnate themselves.
Even the most genetically perfect of these mutants can't do both. Everyone else is beyond delusional.
>>8116919
> billions of people are born with soodo dickginas
billions of people are born with skincancer. This proves that cancer is the norm guise !! Nobody work on cancer treatments anymore or you're a bigot !!!!
>>8116919
did that guy make you suck his dick after he got done fucking your newly minted inverted hot dog gash?
>>8116927
/thread
final proof that homo sapiens are a binary gender. everyone pack your shit up and go home.
oh and to all the anons here that have so much to say about how it's fine - let's talk the day that you hire caitlyn jenner to babysit your daughter.
>>8116447
Because more often than not them results are grotesque.
>>8116924
>we never take scalpels to change what we are. we take scalpels to refine what we already were.
That seems like a pretty threadbare argument. If someone sees themselves as unattractive and they go under the knife for cosmetic surgery, they are changing from their natural, unattractive state to a synthetic, attractive one. Whether you see this as 'refinement' or an unnatural change is literally just your own opinion.
>since I'm saying that the genetic factor should be accounted for and not encouraged to propagate, and you seem to conveniently continue ignoring this by presenting an all or nothing scenario as your argument.
Again, if there is a genetic basis for why people are transgender, it is almost certainly multifactorial. Just like with autism where the genetic causes are multitude and often spontaneous, you're not going to be able to get rid of transgender people by preventing them from breeding.
>If you feel like you were not born with appropriate genitalia, then you were simply not meant to propagate
Interesting argument. Should asexuals and frigid women be sterilized as well, just in case they choose artificial insemination?
>>8116928
False equivocation.
Millions are born with blonde hair.
Millions are born short.
That doesn't make it bad or a disease.
Different ≠ disease.
>>8116930
Homophobia points to the fact you have latent homosexial feelings you're afraid of.
>>8116936
1. wrong. they are not changing their state of having two eyes, one nose, a set of lips on one mouth, two ears, two eyebrows, etc. they are refining them to be more aesthetic.
2. i'm not saying get rid of them, i'm saying reduce the probability of passing down the trait
3. asexuals and frigid women do not have their dicks cut off or have their pussies sewn shut and a cadaver's cock attached. flawed example.
your logic still sucks
>>8116927
Straw man argument.
Gender isn't only about reproduction.
There are hundreds of millions of people that don't reproduce or can't.
Does that mean they are genderless?
No.
Does it mean they have binary genders?
No.
Again, there are issues with "ambiguous genitalia" as well as the brain, hormone, etc... spectrum.
Nothing is perfect, especially genitals and genital reproduction.
Do you actually think everyone's privates look the same? With billions of people? All genetically separate people?
>>8116937
oh believe me i'm not homophobic. i just think you're full of shit and are very stupid and also very gay but in the closet. also i think you were touched as a kid by someone, probably your next door neighbor's uncle.
![e083e0f2edee_sf_7[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Rnvi1Uz.jpg "e083e0f2edee_sf_7[1].jpg")
>>8116937
So degenerative genetic mutations are fine ? Have you seen chernobyl ? Those people aren't diseased or anything, but that doesn't mean that they are normal and should be accepted as the norm.
>>8116942
he's saying the only natural occurence of having non-binary gender traits is STERILE - aka not normal - aka trannies aren't normal
>>8116918
>gender is NOT sex you transtesticle.
Well, there isn't really a consistent set of definitions used. However, I'll agree with that: "gender" is generally used for psychology and cultural traits, and "sex" for morphological, hormonal and genetic traits.
>Your penis doesn't magically turn into a vagina just because you feel like it and you magically don't turn int oa woman.
Okay, sure. That's not what I or anyone else has said.
>Nobody cares how you identify yourself or will respect it.
Clearly they do, or they wouldn't keep making and arguing in these threads.
>Just because some mentally challenge people think they're spiderman, people don't call them spiderman.
Because that's obviously a reasonable analogy.
>>8116928
>This proves that cancer is the norm
Yes.
>Nobody work on cancer treatments anymore or you're a bigot
How does that follow?
I'm worried that half the people in this thread haven't even entered any kind of discussion, and are just chanting slogans.
>>8116927
>Even the most genetically perfect of these mutants can't do both. Everyone else is beyond delusional.
I can't follow your argument here at all.
True hermaphroditism doesn't exist, therefore all other sexual and gender traits don't matter?
What?
>>8116935
>Because more often than not them results are grotesque.
That's an argument to get better at it.
>>8116937
>Homophobia points to the fact you have latent homosexial feelings you're afraid of.
Outside of a few amusing cases, I don't believe that's ever really been shown.
>>8116940
>1. wrong. they are not changing their state of having two eyes, one nose, a set of lips on one mouth, two ears, two eyebrows, etc. they are refining them to be more aesthetic.
Aesthetic is inherently subjective. You're going in circles here.
>2. i'm not saying get rid of them, i'm saying reduce the probability of passing down the trait
Let's step back for a second here. Does this seem like even a remotely pragmatic solution to you? Mass-sterilization and other Nazi-tier crimes against humanity for the purpose of *maybe* preventing a couple of people from inheriting the genes for being transgender?
>3. asexuals and frigid women do not have their dicks cut off or have their pussies sewn shut and a cadaver's cock attached. flawed example.
So you're saying that they shouldn't be sterilized? That's funny, because I thought trying to prevent reproduction makes you 'broken', so why not extend your eugenics to asexuals and frigid women, since who knows whether they might pass down their sex-repulsion to their children? Seems like a bit of a double standard to me.
>>8116942
Of course it's just about reproduction, unless you are saying that we should limit people based on what we think they look like?
Why are you such a fucking hypocrite when the situation matches your desires? You think that someone should call you a girl because you want to be pretty and wear dresses? Do it. You are still a guy. Just be so fucking pretty that no one cares.
If you can't trick people into believing what you think is right then making up a random system and trying to force a non existent rules on things won't fucking work either.
>>8116946
> Clearly they do, or they wouldn't keep making and arguing in these threads.
lgbt people posting in science board, doesn't magically make gender or personal identifications a subject science, or mean people give a shit about how they identify themselves. The bottom line is it doesn't matter what you think yourself are when you have a binary genitalia. Because in medical examination, people don't give a shit about your gender, they only care about the genitalia.
> How does that follow?
see : >>8116944
>>8116948
1. that is the dumbest shit ever. physical attraction is an animal instinct that triggers on a specific category of bone structure/feature distribution. Not subjective in the least. The only subjective thing about it is that some prefer one type of attractive over another - but all types of attractive are considered to be attractive.
2. again i'm not saying sterilization. i'm saying they should not be encouraged to propagate, nor should they be given guardianship of easily influenced/moldable minds. Gay/lesbian i get - it's a sexual orientation - transgenderism? no.
3. this has nothing to do with sexual anything. it has everything to do with the physical organs that your genetic makeup has generated - the SOLE purpose of which is reproduction. again, your arguments are so off base it's not even funny. are you reading at all?
>>8116949
>Of course it's just about reproduction, unless you are saying that we should limit people based on what we think they look like?
And there is where the foundation of your error is.
You use the irrational anchoring heuristic, even when these simple questions dismantle your position:
There are hundreds of millions of people that don't reproduce or can't.
Does that mean they are genderless?
No.
Does it mean they have binary genders?
No.
Again, there are issues with "ambiguous genitalia" as well as the brain, hormone, etc... spectrum.
Nothing is perfect, especially genitals and genital reproduction.
Do you actually think everyone's privates look the same? With billions of people? All genetically separate people?
FYI: The anchoring heuristic is only used by people that lack the cognitive development of an teenager.
By the time you're an adult, you're supposed to understand "correction" as a concept.
>>8116948
You can psychologically be attracted to the same or opposite sex
You can't psychologically turn into the opposite sex.
>>8116961
you're obviously not an adult then, because "correction" is not "complete removal of a vital body part and creating a surrogate meat sock"
lgbt ---> that way
>>8116958
>physical attraction is an animal instinct that triggers on a specific category of bone structure/feature distribution. Not subjective in the least.
Except it totally is. Societal standards for attractiveness change all of the time. People in Hollywood get breast implants because it's attractive in the United States, while in plenty of African villages boobs aren't even a factor in attractiveness.
There's definitely bone structures that are unanimously seen as being unattractive, but plenty of the beauty standards that people receive surgery for are nothing more than cultural trends. Or in other words, subjective.
>i'm saying they should not be encouraged to propagate, nor should they be given guardianship of easily influenced/moldable minds
So you're convinced it's a matter of nature rather than nurture, but you don't want transgender people around kids? Are you afraid they're gonna transfer their tranny-genes horizontally like a bacterium?
>Gay/lesbian i get - it's a sexual orientation - transgenderism? no.
The same kind of treatment you want for transgender people is the same kind of stuff people used to want for gays and lesbians. I won't tell you what to do with that information.
>this has nothing to do with sexual anything
From what I'm getting here, your opposition to transgender people is that they want to engage in surgeries that damage their potential to reproduce. Likewise, asexual people want to avoid having sex, which is a behavior that also damages their potential to reproduce. Why do you treat one group with reprehension and not the other?
>>8116961
I hope you know that the reason why I ignore all of that other shit you mumble about is because it doesn't matter. I don't actually care about you or any one else's subjective opinions. Sorry if it hurts your feelings but it's the truth.
Gender doesn't fucking matter, it doesn't exist. I won't waste ATP trying to understand the convoluted system.
This is coming from someone with gender dysphoria. I got over it because I realized when I was just the best me that I could be no one truly cared if I looked like a girl as a dude, or when I was a jackass people hated me because I was being a jackass. You can be you without being worried about whether it is girly or manly. Just be you.
>>8116971
you're uh completely stupid..really.
you've ignored the actual points i've been making in favor of your cherry-picking.
you're obviously some delusional lgbt shill.. have fun trying to convince the world that your psychosis is relevant
>>8116954
>lgbt people posting in science board, doesn't magically make gender or personal identifications a subject science
Why assume "lgbt people"?
In any case, psychology, sex and gender are obviously subjects that are studied scientifically.
>The bottom line is it doesn't matter what you think yourself are when you have a binary genitalia.
It does matter though. Look at any of the papers posted in this thread, it has a huge affect on people's lives.
>Because in medical examination, people don't give a shit about your gender, they only care about the genitalia.
No, both matter. Or are you going to claim that psychological treatment "isn't real medicine"?
>>8116963
>You can't psychologically turn into the opposite sex.
No, but you can have the psychology of someone fd the opposite biological sex, and then experience harmful dysphoria as a result.
Which is what this is about.
>>8116966
>you're obviously not an adult then, because "correction" is not "complete removal of a vital body part and creating a surrogate meat sock"
You realise that almost any medical procedure can be dressed up on negative language, right?
Are you REALLY going with "it makes me feel uncomfortable" as your whole argument?
>>8116972
>This is coming from someone with gender dysphoria.
>Gender doesn't fucking matter, it doesn't exist.
You have a disorder that relates to gender, but you don't think gender exists?
I'm having extreme difficulty reconciling those two statements.
>>8116984
I got over it when I realized what truly matters. My issue was that I thought that I must be one because that's what everyone calls me whenever they first meet me right? But I still have a dick so was there a mistake down the line? No, I'm just me. An asexual dude that looks like a girl. That's how it is.
>>8116981
>you've ignored the actual points i've been making in favor of your cherry-picking.
I've been pretty careful about trying to address everything that you're saying. I don't personally like it when people ignore an entire paragraph out of my post, so I avoid doing that with other people. I'm not so sure that I've been cherrypicking anything.
>have fun trying to convince the world that your psychosis is relevant
I'm totally cisgender and not even a particularly ardent advocate for LGBT rights.
I stepped into this conversation because you were spouting BS about how your eugenics fantasies were supported by evolution. I pretty much debunked that, and the only reason this argument has continued is because you're unwilling to let go of all the other hypocrisies associated with your beliefs. You think it's sensible to sterilize or restrict the reproduction of transgender people, but you don't assign the same kind of punishment to people who are equally deserving under your beliefs. For that, you're a hypocrite.
I'm taking this as a sign that you're done arguing. I don't care if you're out of arguments or just too tired to continue - I'm taking this as an opportunity to step out myself.
>>8116992
In addition to this, my main point is that I believe that this whole "gender" thing is toxic to the minds of people that are confused like I was. This gives them something to lash out and attach to that doesn't really fix their problems. When the "answer" to your problem is that the entire world needs to become just as delusional as you are then the problem is probably you. The whole conversation should be more "you can like things regardless of your sex" rather than no sweety you are actually a "insert delusion here." These two agenda cannot co-exist.
>wanted to be a girl since I was a young kid
>always prayed to god that I would wake up as a girl
>always wished on my birthdays when I blew out the candles I would be a girl
>was pretty normal kid
>mental health started going downhill when I was 13~ and figured out that wanting to be a girl wasn't normal
>>8116690
>how does it harm anyone?
Impressionable people will take on this trend and think they themselves have gender dysphoria and go towards getting the surgery when in fact they are simply lacking an identity and in a panicked attempt at being an individual, they pick up similarities and try to convince themselves all their prolbloms are because they were born wrong.
I know of three fucking people that have done this.
the problem is because of our current and previous culteral standings.based on gender, this new found acceptance of transgendered people can be exploited as a trend, and therefore copied and sold to confused teens and even kids out there.
And because no one can speak against itwithout being called a bigot, we now have tons of trans people without an identity crisis. But just want to belong.
Its fucking sickening.
>>8116794
>Screenshots are proving anything
>>8117005
>In addition to this, my main point is that I believe that this whole "gender" thing is toxic to the minds of people that are confused like I was.
"Gender" as an idea isn't going away - it's got a pretty firm psychological basis, and a lot of cultural shit built on top of it.
>When the "answer" to your problem is that the entire world needs to become just as delusional as you are
>The whole conversation should be more "you can like things regardless of your sex" rather than no sweety you are actually a "insert delusion here."
Uh, I don't think anyone is actually advocating positions like that.
>>8117059
>Impressionable people will take on this trend and think they themselves have gender dysphoria and go towards getting the surgery when in fact they are simply lacking an identity
Okay, fine. That's why we have actual trained psychologists talk to these people first. Do you have any data at all that shows that people who aren't suffering from gender dsyphoria are getting surgery? Because in my experience people looking for an identity tend to adopt jargon and shout slogans - they don't usually undergo unnecessary surgery.
>I know of three fucking people that have done this.
You'll have to excuse my skepticism.
>the problem is because of our current and previous culteral standings.based on gender, this new found acceptance of transgendered people can be exploited as a trend, and therefore copied and sold to confused teens and even kids out there.
What?
Are you trying to claim that this is some kind of conspiracy? Who would profit from something like that?
>>8116981
>How to lose an argument
>>8117059
Baseless presupposition founded upon paranoia and fake psychic beliefs.
Do you have any science to back all of that up or are you cycling between personal incredulity and false dilemma fallacies?
>>8117154
>Baseless presupposition founded upon paranoia and fake psychic beliefs.
As far as I can tell, it's basically the whole "gays are recruiting our children" thing pulled out of the fridge and re-heated. Sure there's no data to support it, but won't someone please think of the children?
>>8116633
>I am force by my emotions to be like this.[sic]
I guess you're forced by your emotions to post anime too. I mean after all, we're all slaves to our whims, aren't we.
None of us can beneficially shove down impractical and destructive emotions in order to achieve goals with a higher QALY-value than what our "emotions force us to".
So why should you be allowed state sponsored HRT and GRS for your lack of adaptability, while I'm shoved to the literal sidewalk for being unable to work a normal job? Our problems are both mental, the solutions are both habitual.
Exactly when does a problem go from being individual to collective? Gays are collective now, have the same marriage rights as heteros in many countries and are generally accepted as real people.
Exactly how long must I wait before it's okay to say "You know what, the crushing despair of living kept me in bed this week", all the while I might as well just change my sex and get sponsored time off?
>>8117174
>I guess you're forced by your emotions to post anime too. I mean after all, we're all slaves to our whims, aren't we.
A perhaps more nuanced view may be that people have different levels of "super ego" control over different kinds of thoughts, views and mental attributes. Anime posting is something that any (sane) person could stop in an instant. A preferred food might take a few weeks of trying things for one's tastes to change. Things like sexuality and gender identification is entirely beyond anyone's control.
>So why should you be allowed state sponsored HRT and GRS for your lack of adaptability
Why insist someone changes who they are, when helping them is a feasible option?
>while I'm shoved to the literal sidewalk for being unable to work a normal job?
Why are you unable to work a normal job?
>Exactly how long must I wait before it's okay to say "You know what, the crushing despair of living kept me in bed this week"
That's called depression, and it's absolutely a legitimate medical condition. So, negative 30 years?
>>8117184
The fact that depression is legitimate doesn't make treatment effective or something there's a broad consensus around.
And if there IS a consensus in clinical research, that information rarely disseminates to general practitioners and municipal healthcare systems in less than a decade.
Besides, the question stands: is depression caused by joblessness, or the other way around? In my case it's very hard to see whether it's a "chicken and chicken egg" situation, or a "chicken and lizard egg" situation.
In short, because I'm hateful at 4chan and not usually in meatspace, I wanna finish this post soon.
The problem I'm having is Depression is hard to diagnose, correlate with causes etc. It's a thing that CAN NOT be treated ignorant to the causes. It's hard to find a cure or treatment unless you know the causes.
I feel like T's "cut in line". This causes bitterness. And poor judgement.
And I'm sorry.
>>8116763
>doesn't want trannies to pass down their broken genes
>complains about them being allowed to cut off their own dick, effectively removing their genes from the pool for good
Wat
>>8116763
>You talk about animals that have their genitals destroyed, BUT THIS DOES NOT MAKE THE ANIMAL THINK IT'S A FEMALE.
Right. They don't really identify their own gender according to the genitals they have or not have. Unlike humans. Essentially, you are stating that for the sake of argumentation any non-human species is incomparable to humans. Not only do you miss the point by arguing how animals don't have a human concept of identity (wording it like this were the only relevant diffence here), you also explain why arguing about the evolution of other species misses the point.
>>8117198
>The fact that depression is legitimate doesn't make treatment effective or something there's a broad consensus around.
I'm pretty sure that there's a consensus among actual medical professionals that depression is a Real Thing.
>Besides, the question stands: is depression caused by joblessness, or the other way around? In my case it's very hard to see whether it's a "chicken and chicken egg" situation, or a "chicken and lizard egg" situation.
I'm absolutely no psychologist, but if you're actually spending up to a week-long periods where you don't leave bed except to eat and shit, then that's probably not just joblessness. That's an actual mental issue, (and I've been there).
>The problem I'm having is Depression is hard to diagnose, correlate with causes etc. It's a thing that CAN NOT be treated ignorant to the causes. It's hard to find a cure or treatment unless you know the causes.
"Curing" it without deep knowledge isn't possible, but I believe treatment is definitely possible. How much it help depends on the individual, but it's preferable to suffering quietly.
>I feel like T's "cut in line". This causes bitterness. And poor judgement.
I understand, but that's still not really fair. Metal health is still a shitshow right now, so of course different parts are going to move at different speeds. But holding back treatment for one group isn't going to help another.
>And I'm sorry.
That's okay.
>>8116937
>Millions are born short.
the manlet disease is spreading
>>8116611
>One is a irrational belief about the world, the other is dissonance caused by the body not matching one's own identity.
Stupid description is stupid.
Delusion is thinking the world don't be like it is.
Dysphoria is not liking that the world be like it is.
Being trans is pretty cool imo. I don't understand why people get so buttflustered about it but whatever, I live in the liberal paradise that is California so I ain't gotta worry about these things too much. Y'all do you, I guess, if being angry about things that don't actually affect you makes you feel better about your life.
The sex is a lot better, too. I never knew what the phrase "takes your breath away" really meant before 2nd puberty but it isn't a metaphor and it feels pretty amazing when it happens.
it doesnt bother me; its chill.
>>8116961
>Does that mean they are genderless?
No, it means they CHOSE not to reproduce or couldn't reproduce. Unless they're sterile, in which case they have damaged genitals, but still XY or XX chromosomes.
>Does it mean they have binary genders?
Yes, since humans are only male or female. Even trannies just go from one to the other.
The problem is the insufferable self-righteousness of the trannies who rebel against being straight, against straight people, who can't take criticism and can't even accept the fact that some people just don't like it.
I mean I don't call people who don't like my red dyed hair bigots because I don't wanna be an obnoxious social reject who thinks everyone has an obligation to like it.
Would the transexual debate be as big a deal if some kind of "perfect" transformation? Like if one had some kind of genetic alteration, where they are turned genetically into a woman, growing a uterus, testes turn into ovaries,XX and not XY, would it matter to people so much? Is it just the fact its a "false" change where it is seen as just superficial that bothers people?
>>8119759
kinda yeah. Their argument is that they should be able to go into our bathroom and do other women things because they feel like it.
I swear if I ever see a transgender "woman" that calls himself whatever, I'll kick him in the balls so hard and scream rape until he gets arrested while bleeding from his genitals
>>8119772
But would it still bother you they could have a period, children, menopause, ect? Even if you knew they had once been a man? If they were indiscernible from a woman who was born that way, would it bother you?
I myself don't believe in not believing in it. It's the same thing people did with gays. You only can't believe because you don't have a first-hand experience of it. It really suggests your ability to perceive other people's genuine feelings is not very good. Or you simply never met such a person in your life.
>>8117154
>>8117166
Have you guys never heard of children seeking gender reassignment surgery before they're even old enough to reproduce? Or parents who encourage their children to dress and act like the opposite sex when they find that they act like them? I used to wear dresses and play with barbies when I was a child but I got over it; if I were raised today I would probably be a """"""woman"""""" by now.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123913/Children-young-12-seeking-gender-reassignment-procedures-following-Caitlyn-Jenner-s-high-profile-transgender-surgery.html
http://www.sexchangeregret.com
http://www.medicaldaily.com/gender-reassignment-surgery-parents-sue-doctors-making-their-intersex-child-girl-347804
Yes I realise the second source is biased but they do have some unbiased research.
>>8119788
> But would it still bother you they could have a period, children, menopause, ect?
How the hell is that going to happen ? A man that grew up as a male, with male culture, who have different hormones, genes and everything.
And suddenly he thinks he can come into my bathroom ? I simply don't consent a man coming to my bathroom which is one of the few safe spaces I have left anywhere around. Man have their own bathroom where they belong, and it should be enough for them.
>>8119803
It was just a hypothetical. I wondered if the issue was "men becoming women" or "men superficially attempting to look like one"
>>8119823
men acting like women creep me a hell of a lot more than men just being men
Gender dysphoria is an issue, and people need to address it. The enabling of their delusion and the ways we are helping them live their delusion isn't helping anybody.
Before this push towards political correctedness in society it was known as Gender Identity Disorder, which is a much more accurate description. If a person who is born biologically a male and truly believes otherwise, then they are living in a falsified reality. Allowing them to live like that, and by addressing the problem by mutilating their genitalia to conform to their delusion is immoral. Statistics show that patients with Gender Identity Disorder have a higher attempted suicide rate to before the procedure. >http://www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_report_on_health.pdf
This suicide rate is because of their mental illness, and the first step to help these people and deal with this is to acknowledge that there is a problem.
>>8119796
I turned out good looking. Good at physics too.
I have a hard time understanding what all of this is about. Really, I think I better could imagine the state of mind of a person who believes to be Napoleon than the state of mind of a person who believes to be a men (while being physically a women) or vice versa.
From my perspective it looks like this: I am aware that I have a male body, I am aware that people around consider me to be male, I act accordingly. And its not like I somehow have an internal feeling of being male (or female for this matter). So while a (hypothetical) fake Napoleon is clearly delusional, at least he is just wrong. But a transgender person isn't factually wrong but operate with a concept that is completely alien to me.
>>8119930
Transitioning is puberty. You can derp derp derp about chromosomes or whatever, but someone who's medically transitioned is gonna have secondary sex characteristics in accordance with their chosen gender. Saying that they have a permanently birth-sexed body isn't just disingenuous, it's factually incorrect on at least a couple of counts.
>>8120036
Maybe I wasn't completely clear. I haven't talked about medical transition. I have talked about a state of mind of a person who thinks to be a women while not being delusional about having a male body and being perceived as male (or vice versa).
>>8120059
I don't think there's really such thing as an essential identity of man/woman. I'm a woman because I live as a woman - I behave like a woman, I present as a woman, I socialize as a woman, etc. etc. Now, we could argue about why exactly I felt compelled to live my life like this, but I don't think that's a particularly useful conversation to have, because it doesn't really matter why so much as I chose this path for myself and that's kinda that. I have a dick, sure, and maybe I'll do something about it one of these days, but I just don't get the fixation, you know?
>>8116611
>One is a irrational belief about the world, the other is dissonance caused by the body not matching one's own identity.
those are the same thing. trannies are essentially anorexics but with sex instead of size/body fat
>>8116373
Transgenderism is the biggest cancer of the modern western world along with feminism. You got a cock your a bloke, you got a pussy your a female. No fucking debate.
i think transgender bathrooms is horrible, and i dont know how people can think it's okay. it makes no sense that we've had 'transgender' people in society for years now and it only took a week for it to blow up. such a repetitive daily problem couldnt possibly stay silent until just a month ago.
>>8120070
>I don't think there's really such thing as an essential identity of man/woman.
I don't experience something like this either. But people claim (and probably not lying) that there exists this psychical state that I have described, i.e. gender identity that is detached from reality.
>Now, we could argue about why exactly I felt compelled to live my life like this, but I don't think that's a particularly useful conversation to have, because it doesn't really matter why so much as I chose this path for myself and that's kinda that.
Obviously, there could be different reasons. The thing that bothering me here is one exact very frequently mentioned reason that I found to be extremely strange and alien to me.
>>8120036
The worst part of the chromosomes argument is that XY natal females exist
>>8120070
>I have a dick
In order to be anything you have to meet certain criteria be it astronaut or woman. If you meet all the criteria you have a right to get the certificate but if you don't the most you can do is ask to be an honorary member. Therefore if you haven't completed sex-reassignment it is not right to demand that you be called female, it should be up to others based on how convincing you are.
/sci/ really needs to make their minds up
>Gender is not a social construct, there are differences between the minds of men and women
>"I don't think there's really such thing as an essential identity of man/woman"
>>8120095
Gender nonconforming people have been harassed and assaulted in bathrooms for a long time now, it's not a new thing whatsoever outside of being the Republican tantrum du jour.
>>8120096
It's a discourse that arose to counter antitrans discourses. You can't really argue with someone's internal sense of self on any rational level outside of vague/unprovable accusations of delusion, so that's where its utility lies. I think that utility only goes so far which is why I tend away from it, but I understand why people believe that and claim it about themselves in the face of a society which largely tries to delegitimize their existence.
>>8120088
>Transgenderism is the biggest cancer of the modern western world along with feminism
Effects of feminism are, alimony, male suicide, affirmative action, low performance of males in schools, no father figure and rape culture
Effects of transgenderism are ???, ?????? and ????????????
>You got a cock your a bloke, you got a pussy your a female. No fucking debate.
The whole aim of sex changes is to give blokes pussies and vice versa. I can agree with you however that demanding to be called a woman just because you're in makeup is rocking the boat.
>>8120112
I don't want a man in my bathroom. Fuck off back to yours
End of story.
>>8120099
>In order to be anything you have to meet certain criteria be it astronaut or woman. If you meet all the criteria you have a right to get the certificate but if you don't the most you can do is ask to be an honorary member. Therefore if you haven't completed sex-reassignment it is not right to demand that you be called female, it should be up to others based on how convincing you are.
Sure, but I'm contesting the discursive grounds on which "if penis, then man" exists. I don't think it's useful or accurate. And I pass, which is something I'm thankful for and makes my life better in enumerable ways, but I don't think "passing" is a worthwhile metric by which to judge gender in the first place either.
>>Gender is not a social construct, there are differences between the minds of men and women
I never claimed this. There's likely predisposition to certain personality traits based on "biological sex" because humans are dimorphic, but I don't really think the categories of male and female are fixed to begin with.
>>8120115
I'm sorry I don't see gender.
I walk into whatever bathroom is closest.
>>8120123
As I said, any transgender "women" I see, I'll kick him in the balls and scream rape until he gets arrested and bleeding from his nuts.
trans persons exist just like schizophrenics; but unlike schizos, trans-persons are """treated""" by humoring their delusions.
it doesn't help them, but...
>>8120153
It doesn't help them? I'm much happier and better adjusted for having transitioned. Why does my experience with transition as a positive not count?
>>8120164
johns hopkins stopped performing transition surgeries because they found patients' mental health evaluations were no better than they were prior to treatment. it quite literally has no mental effectiveness
>>8116652
>Mental illness isn't genetic
Holy fuck go back to /x/ or /his/ or whatever shithole you came from
>>8120164
>Why does my experience with transition as a positive not count?
because anecdotal evidence is not evidence, and your subjective experience does not outweigh objective measures of success
>>8116652
God you're dumb
>>8120196
>It's well known that transition decreases the suicide rate.
Except the studies say the opposite.
>>8116755
I don't agree with the guy you're arguing against, but you should have just stopped replying after stating that the problem itself cannot be resolved by therapy.
Going by the logic of this post, the traits of the cockroach are in some ways "superior" to those of the human being. We humans set our own standards- intelligence is preferable to stupidity, sound minds to mental pain, etc.
what does it mean to be a woman?
what does it mean to be a man?
pretty sure not genitalia. not pink and blue
![maxresdefault[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/79vZG4h.jpg "maxresdefault[1].jpg")
People who undergo sexual reassignment surgery have around 20x suicide rates compared to baseline
>this is considered a "cure"
>>8120224
well, it's certainly reducing the number of people suffering from gender dysphoria.
>>8120221
What does it mean to "be?"
>>8120236
what does it mean to "mean" something?
>>8116373
>to great approximation, someone's genitals only matter to you if you're having sex with them
>you will never fuck the vast majority of people you meet
>you will fuck exactly 0% of the people you don't meet
>you shouldn't care about the genitals of pretty much anyone
Similar argument applies to genes to show the following.
>you shouldn't care about the genes of anyone, save for maybe approximately 2 people
>>8120236
judging by the quality of these comments - 'not transgender'
>>8116981
8/8
>>8120230
You are glass half full kind of guy
>>8120229
how about i dont.
>>8120252
Why? It's a good book.
i think the general rule of thumb should be that if orangutans arent biting their own dicks off because they are disgusted at being male, then it shouldnt be done
>>8120261
I don't believe you actually think that. Too obviously too flawed. Why can't you just be honest and say something like "I don't know why, but ew no". Infinitely more respectable than trying to fool yourself like that.
>>8120274
or something like, "I feel disgusted by this behavior for the same reason these people adhere to it."
>>8120279
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but incoherent beats dishonest any day of the week.
>>8120281
"it" refers to "this behavior"
it's quite obvious.
>>8120284
I understood that. I was confused by the 'same reason' bit. Let me try to spell it out, maybe I'll understand better.
>x is born male
>x adheres to 'it' because x believes x is female
So the reason is
>x believes x is female
So
>y is disgusted by x believing x is female because x believes x is female
I'm 100% sure I still misunderstand, but now that you see my thought process you'll maybe have an easier time in correcting me.
>>8120292
the reason for "x is female" is "x believes"
no rationalization required.
that's why "y is disgusted by x"
it just is, either naturally or as a product of it's upbringing and culture or something else beyond "y's" control.
>>8120198
[citation needed]
>>8120318
Unsourced assertions beget unsourced retorts.
>>8120318
>http://www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_report_on_health.pdf
>>8120353
Page 16, first line.
Also,
>author name, PhD
Toppu fucking rerru. Peer reviewed research would've been preferable.
>>8120261
Well, time to throw out our cars, phones, laptops, clothes etc.
Orangutans aren't doing it so neither should we.
>>8120353
this shit isn't even a peer reviewed study
>>8120474
that's like saying DoL reports aren't peer reviewed studies. Of course they're not. it's just data, man.
get your head out of your ass and think for a second.
>>8120487
maybe they got bullied more for going through with it, maybe they had bad surgery, maybe their boyfriend laughed at it. you can't come to the conclusion that the treatment didn't work using one piece of data that has never been reviewed
>>8120497
I don't understand where your obsession over "peer-review" comes from. do you ask your local weatherman to get "peer-reviewed" sources instead of data from the NWS (or whatever your country uses)?
I did not make any claims beyond, "people who transition kill themselves more than people left untreated," and i didn't notice anyone else try either.
if you want to argue that treatment very effective despite being more likely leading to death, that's your case to argue and i'd like to see how you'd support it.
>>8116647
Thank you. Perfect.
>>8116670
>There's nothing reasonable about it the moment you realize everyones actions affect everyone
Authoritarian, totalitarian, fascist. You are not my parent. People have the right to live their life in a manner of their own choosing.
>>8116729
Actually, as far as I know, the modern scientific evidence shows that gender identity is mostly fixed in the brain, and gender identity is set in the brain during development in the womb according to hormone levels. Of course, spectrum. Also, right to self determination, which means that this is a mere academic point that shouldn't be driving our public policy.
>>8116783
<3 you.
>>8116789
Some genetic conditions cause the development of a person that is stereotypically "male", except no penis. There have been studies that follow such people who had sex reassignment surgery immediately after birth to female plus hormone therapy to become female. IIRC, a majority of children in this position later identify as "feeling male", in spite of post-birth female hormone levels, lacking a penis, being raised as a girl, etc.
Thus, it stands to reason that some people had hormone levels in the womb to cause a certain gender identity, but the physical sex characteristics (penis vs vagina) may not match.
>>8120196
>>one hospital
they were the pioneers of the treatment, and stopped because it was found to be ineffective.
>>8116373
Gender dysphoria/GID is undeniably a real thing.
Currently, passing as the opposite gender is the accepted "cure" for it - trans people feel happier after it, so who am I to stop/judge them?
Also, what other people have in their pants isn't my problem. *unless I'm in a relationship with them
>>8120172
>johns hopkins stopped performing transition surgeries because they found patients' mental health evaluations were no better than they were prior to treatment. it quite literally has no mental effectiveness
The vast majority of studies show the exact opposite result. That particular case could well have involved factors specific to that hospital.
>>8120561
could you point to a study then?
>>8116882
>peer reviewed
Links contained herein:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/fighting-back-against-ant_b_5633450.html
>>8120561
no, your studies speak of patient reported hapiness, this study speaks of psychiatric evaluations. they dont improve their overall mental state, just how happy they think they are. theyre still disturbed according to their medical evaluations
>>8116373
>http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change
>The transgendered person’s disorder, said Dr. McHugh, is in the person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature. It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh.
>>8120609
>McHugh
You immediately lose all credibility. Check out who you're citing:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/fighting-back-against-ant_b_5633450.html
> Dr. McHugh is a self-described orthodox Catholic whose radical views are well documented. In his role as part of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' review board, he pushed the idea that the Catholic sex-abuse scandal was not about pedophilia but about "homosexual predation on American Catholic youth." He filed an amicus brief arguing in favor of Proposition 8 on the basis that homosexuality is a "choice." Additionally, McHugh was in favor of forcing a pregnant 10-year-old girl who had been raped by an adult relative to carry to term.
> If you want a detailed analysis of how Dr. McHugh has misrepresented data, rigged studies, left out significant details in his research, and is nothing more than a poorly regarded fringe element in his own field, you can read about it here, here, here, here, here, and here. No secular medical or mental-health organization agrees with him. Even his own (former) department denounced his stance in testimony before the Maryland Senate. Court cases looking at transgender medical issues have found his work unpersuasive.
> In short, Paul McHugh is the Mark Regnerus of transgender issues.
>>8116718
Because when the medical community is forced to accommodate these nutjobs, it causes my insurance rates to increase.
>>8120639
Well, at least that's something resembling a reasonable argument, as opposed to the complete bullshit of the rest of the thread.
Aa
>>8116373
>Thoughts on transgender people?
No more genetic competition from them.
On the down side, if society gets filled with them someone might make a law that makes it mandatory you have to become transgender.
>>8120581
>no, your studies speak of patient reported hapiness, this study speaks of psychiatric evaluations
The studies I linked to earlier in the thread actually reported both.
Also, the paper you linked to actually DOESN'T claim that suicide rates go up after reassignment - it claims that suicide rates are higher among those who have gone through reassignment. If you can't see why those two things aren't equivalent, you probably shouldn't be posting survey results.
>theyre still disturbed according to their medical evaluations
Disturbed?
That's an interesting choice of words.
>>8120609
>The transgendered person’s disorder, said Dr. McHugh, is in the person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature.
That's retarded.
Identity obviously isn't an assumption.
>>8120639
>Because when the medical community is forced to accommodate these nutjobs, it causes my insurance rates to increase.
That's true of everything the medical community does. That doesn't mean that healthcare is a bad idea.
>Because when the medical community is forced to accommodate people with malaria, it causes my insurance rates to increase.
>Because when the medical community is forced to accommodate car crash victims, it causes my insurance rates to increase.
>Because when the medical community is forced to accommodate cancer patients, it causes my insurance rates to increase.
See?
>>8120910
>Also, the paper you linked to actually DOESN'T claim that suicide rates go up after reassignment
i didnt link any paper that wasnt me
disturbed is an accurate choice of words. they imagine themselves as being physically different than they are. just as anorexics imagine themselves as being physically different than they really are. its a severe mental disorder and shouldnt be accepted as typical or even fringe behavior. these people are mutilating healthy body parts because they cant accept reality as it is. no different than those that remove healthy limbs and eyes in order to live in their fantasy world where they are physically disabled, when theyre really severely mentally disabled.
>>8120918
>they imagine themselves as being physically different than they are
What do you even mean by this? I'm pretty sure most medical transitioners are pretty aware of what their bodies look like, which is why they get on hormones in the first place.
>>8120918
>disturbed is an accurate choice of words.
It's an entirely unhelpful, highly subjective choice of words.
>they imagine themselves as being physically different than they are. just as anorexics imagine themselves as being physically different than they really are.
No they don't. Transgender people are fully aware of what their body is physically like. They just don't like it.
>its a severe mental disorder
Right, it's gender dysphoria. And sex reassignment combined with therapy is the most effective known treatment.
>these people are mutilating healthy body parts because they cant accept reality as it is
If it's causing them serve psychological distress, it's hardly "healthy" in anything but the strictest (and least helpful) sense.
>no different than those that remove healthy limbs
Except that causes a considerable drop in quality of life, whereas multiple studies show that properly done, sex reassignment improves quality of life.
It kinda sounds like you're just ignoring the questions about trying to do what's best for people, to instead focus on making things "objectively right". And I really don't think that's a healthy attitude to have towards mental healthcare.
>>8120977
objectively right is what's best for the patient
>Except that causes a considerable drop in quality of life, whereas multiple studies show that properly done, sex reassignment improves quality of life.
but theyre much happier after they remove their limbs or blind themselves, so one could easily argue that they have a higher quality of life and are much happier. it's still unhealthy and incredibly stupid.
>Right, it's gender dysphoria
no the disorder is believing youre mentally different than you physically are, not that theyre distressed because they are actually different.
>They just don't like it
and there it is. you cant go mutilating yourself because you cant accept reality. only deeply disturbed people would consider this a rational treatment. and drugs used to treat schizophrenia have also found to eliminate feelings of being the wrong gender in trannies
Every class of psychology i've taken in college has pointed to the statement that being gay or straight is a choice done in the early stages of life. Hormones having no cause on the outcome.
>>8120991
>objectively right is what's best for the patient
There's a reason I put that in quotation marks.
>but theyre much happier after they remove their limbs or blind themselves,
No they're not. That's the point.
>no the disorder is believing youre mentally different than you physically are, not that theyre distressed because they are actually different.
The latter causes harm, the former doesn't.
Believing something that's demonstrably real obviously can't a disorder, but suffering from it can be.
>and there it is. you cant go mutilating yourself because you cant accept reality.
This isn't about "not accepting reality" - someone's identity is obviously a part of reality. The are clear psychological and neurological difference between pre-transistion transgender people and oterh members of the same biological sex. Gender dysphoria is absolutely not a delusion, and not believing in it doesn't make it go away.
>only deeply disturbed people would consider this a rational treatment.
You keep saying that like it's obvious to everyone that transgender people are "deeply disturbed", but you haven't even bothered to DEFINE that word, let alone make a case for it.
>and drugs used to treat schizophrenia have also found to eliminate feelings of being the wrong gender in trannies
That's hardly surprising, those things are absurdly powerful and dangerous. (Also, who the fuck prescribed that?)
Why do you think that, because taking drugs which badly fuck up your mental state will "eliminate feelings", those feelings are somehow "not real" or are "wrong"?
If you're worried about you job so you drink to drive those thoughts out of your head, were your worries unfounded?
>>8121074
>No they're not. That's the point.
but they are, they somehow enjoy being disabled and prefer it to able bodied life. that's why they are disturbed
disturbed:
"suffering or resulting from emotional and mental problems."
>The latter causes harm, the former doesn't.
and you cant get to the harm stage without the underlying disorder. treating symptons is not effective, whereas treating the underlying condition is the only way to help someone.
>This isn't about "not accepting reality"
yes it is. a man cannot claim to be a woman when he is not, and vice versa. they cannot accept physical reality
also i'd love for anyone to define "gender"
>>8121084
Well, aren't you an asshat.
> also i'd love for anyone to define "gender"
Go fuck yourself. It's obvious that you already know the answer, but you're just being a dishonest contrarian.
>>8120910
>>Because when the medical community is forced to accommodate these nutjobs, it causes my insurance rates to increase.
>That's true of everything the medical community does. That doesn't mean that healthcare is a bad idea.
Perhaps, but if we can eliminate unnecessary cosmetic surgical procedures we can control healthcare costs at marginally better. I don't mind if you get you dick cut off. I just don't want to help pay for it.
>>8121084
>disturbed:
>"suffering or resulting from emotional and mental problems."
Well that's a completely unhelpful definition.
If you made it any broader, it'd cover colon cancer too.
>but they are, they somehow enjoy being disabled and prefer it to able bodied life.
I've not actually seen any evidence that the removal of limbs or whatever DOES help those people psychologically, and it sure as fuck reduces their physical ability. Sex reassignment has very little loss of physical ability, and results in improved psychological outcomes in a significant majority of cases.
>and you cant get to the harm stage without the underlying disorder. treating symptons is not effective,
Right, which is why transitioning helps these people - because it's treating the cause (identity-body dissonance) and not the symptoms.
>yes it is. a man cannot claim to be a woman when he is not, and vice versa. they cannot accept physical reality
STOP
THAT IS NOT WHAT TRANSGENDERISM MEANS
>also i'd love for anyone to define "gender"
It has a bunch of different meanings, depending on the context. English is complex, and people are even more so.
Here, it probably refers to the spectrum of psychological and cultural traits associated with biological sex. Does that work for you?
>>8121090
>Perhaps, but if we can eliminate unnecessary cosmetic surgical procedures we can control healthcare costs at marginally better.
If it's an actual treatment for a psychological issue that substantially improves quality of life, how is that a "cosmetic surgical procedure"?
Also, refusing treatment to people who need help is that worst possible way to reduce healthcare costs imaginable. If you actually care about that, why not talk about (for example) organisational waste or regulating the behaviour of pharmaceutical companies? Those would be far more beneficial.
