/sci/, what is it about math majors and mathematicians that makes them so goddamn smug?
It wasn't the mathematicians who created the metal foam plate that can turn 7.62 mm caliber bullets into dust upon impact faggot.
It was a joint combo of Material Engineering, Chemical Engineering, Metallurgists, and Mechanical Engineers.
Come back when your skillset is actually capable of producing something for Humanity.
I find it baffling that faggots like you put up a superiority complex about a field that even the scientists of the 18th century regarded as merely a foundation towards an application, and not as a means to an end.
300 years back, the average mathematician didn't have such level of ignoramus that they would focus on 1 field.
Comparing you to them is like comparing cow turd to gold.
Pure math in this day and age is useless.
>>7996394
Applied math mathterrace
>>7996394
You think your field is the best?
>>7996394
>a foundation towards an application, and not as a means to an end.
uh... a means to a means to an end is still a means to an end
>>7996394
>300 years back, the average mathematician didn't have such level of ignoramus that they would focus on 1 field.
300 years ago, it was possible to meaningfully contribute to multiple fields.
![purity[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/kqq4ENw.png "purity[1].png")
>>7996430
Tell that to...I don't even know where to start.
I just got baited, didn't I?
>>7996485
no. it isnt possible to meaningfully contribute to multiple separate fields nowadays.
your reply is going to be some exceptional case that contributed to closely related topics that intersect a couple of fields, and it's going to be retarded
>>7996485
Poisson, Euler, lagrange, planck, kelvin?
Generalizations here, but it naturally attracts autist. These autist typically come from upper middle to upper class families where their parents could afford to send to Math & Science high schools. They were taught how to take/ace the SAT and Calculus I-III, DE, Linear Algebra before they graduated and got into College practically taking the first year or two courses focusing on Abstract Algebra, Analysis first semester continuing onward involving themselves in REUs & such. Throughout this entire duration they are fed how 'special' and 'intelligent' they are. They become entitled, spoiled and cocky. They get good at solving problems that already have known solutions, but some of them break down when it comes to problems that aren't in text books. They cultivate in a field that encourages anti-social behavior and it manifest into the autist you come across on campus. The worse are the ones that never grow out of their autism and become full blown autistic in graduate school, post-doc and later as a professor. Celibate, no socialization, smug and think they are smarter than they actually are. Luckily this catches up to them and they later fail out or aren't as successful because they aren't properly socialized in the work field (departments) or they never make it that far and drop out of grad school.
I've heard of guys that aced Putnam exams that dropped out of their PhD program because they never experienced failure before and couldn't handle failures from research.
>>7996527
Okay try the past 100 years. Plank is literally the last meaningful multidisciplinary contributor, it seems
About 6 or 7 years ago, a couple of mathematicians found a better graph theoretic approach to DNA sequencing so that this process now takes a few minutes on a desktop machine as opposed to a month on a supercomputer. That seems like an important practical contribution to me.
>>7996590
Yeah I agree plank was crucial in building all kinds of areas of modern society
I mean if not for plank, humans would've had a lot shittier houses than they have now
>>7996527
I think you're proving my point, because none of these people are modern scientists.
>>7996578
>involving themselves in REUs
>break down when it comes to problems that aren't in text books.
I'm wondering how you go through an REU only working problems out of a textbook.
>>7996394
Pure math is more art and aesthetic choices than some people are willing to admit.
>>7996708
Professors use REUs to do pet projects and sometimes end up helping them do their own research to progress them along so they aren't wasting time. Some REUs even have courses to speed the knowledge level up. How much actual research done within the course of those few weeks varies
>>7996394
>Pure math in this day and age is useless.
thats not true at all. the math is almost always 70 years ahead of the engineering.
you have to think about mathematicians as little elves churning out millions of different kinds of tools. most of them being useless, yes, but eventually an engineer comes by, and roots around in their bin and pulls out something useful.
thats why they get funding for their autistic academic circle jerking.
>>7996394
>producing something for Humanity
What the fuck is this meme? How is this an appropriate way to make a value judgement? Do you apply the same reasoning to art and literature? Are you a Philistine? I didn't get into math because I want to increase John Doe's standard of living by one iota; I did it because I'm autistic and I just wanna do math. And odds are, you probably chose your engineering degree for a similar reason. If you woke up tomorrow and had some epiphany wherein you realized that underwater basket weaving was a more direct path to the advancement of civilization, would you switch majors? Also, how many pre-meds do you really think are motivated by muh saving lives, and how many are just in it for the status and salary.
And in all likelihood you're not gonna be the next Tesla; you'll just contribute to some obscure something in a very negligible way, so if your goal to make peoples lives better you should just join the peace corps.
>>7996430
>300 years ago, it was possible to meaningfully contribute to multiple fields.
>not it's not, and that's why i'm a mathematician doing nothing except philosophizing with numbers
Yup, sounds about right.
>b-but you use all of our findings!
No Engineer rummages through incoherent retardation that you idiots spout on paper to make yourselves appear intelligent.
They are too busy building shit and finding new ways to build it and improve it.
Seriously, mathematicians are retarded.
They laugh at engineers for only going up to differential equations, because they don't give a shit philosophizing math.
If it was coherent, it would see application in Engineering and it would be taught there.
It ain't in a majority of cases, so it doesn't. In Engineering, the only math taught is relevant math that cuts to the point and isn't there to make a faggot feel enlightened by their own fedora due to a mess of equations they made on paper.
>>7996912
>They laugh at engineers for only going up to differential equations
I see we're judging entire fields of study based on the prevailing shitposting from 18 year olds on /sci/.
>>7996912
The huge difference is that daily you see engineers saying they are good at math, when they barely know shit about fuck.
You never in a million years will see a mathematician saying he is a good engineer.
Now this idea and run with it. What would you do if a math major who has never done anything but pure math came here to tell you that he is actually really good at engineering, even better than you.
You would think that guy is a fucking moron, he doesn't even know what he is talking about.
Do you understand that?
Good, now you understand why we laugh at you.
>>7996754
>you have to think about mathematicians as little elves churning out millions of different kinds of tools. most of them being useless, yes, but eventually an engineer comes by, and roots around in their bin and pulls out something useful.
holy shit my fucking sides, it's so apt too
>>7997053
You have to understand "good at math" is relative, EEs are fucking wizards compared to your average normie business/humanities major
Just because they didn't compete in Olympiads in high school doesn't mean they're bad at math.
>>7997069
Well mathematicians would be engineering wizards compared to your average idiot, too.
>>7997076
Probably.
Too bad normies don't study any engineering.
Then they could go around telling you that you're good at something instead of just asking if you want to be a math teacher
>>7997089
Are you kidding? Engineering has always been the normie STEM field that actually does rigorous (read: mathematical/quantitative) work. It's the go-to discipline for normies who were raised with relatively decent aptitude for science and babby's first math but don't actually like science or math, they just want a steady paycheck.
>>7996624
>americans live in houses made of planks
>>7996394
Spend a few hours critically thinking about your original statement and you'll realize why we look down on people like you.
>>7996704
300 years was a pretty awful cutoff point for the modern era
>>7997126
Your reading comprehension is not so good if that's what you got from that post. OP said mathematicians 300 years ago could focus on multiple fields, which is simply not possible in today's world.
>>7996476
/thread
But seriously going with that logic, philosophers are really the guys that made math. Isn't math just applied philosophy? You know, axioms and shit
>>7996394
CRC helps people. Wasn't that invented by (or at least heavily leveraged the work of) mathematicians?
>>7997668
yes, which is why pretty much every mathematician of antiquity and even a lot today tend to be pretty philosophical.
it's obviously diverged because people have rigidly defined the boundaries between philosophy, science, and maths in the modern day.
>>7996578
>They get good at solving problems that already have known solutions, but some of them break down when it comes to problems that aren't in text books.
you know this is a pure USA thing, right ? In France and Russia they just spend their math education doing problems NOT in textbooks.
Plus, all your rant just reeks mediocrity.
>>7997668
>philosophers are really the guys that made math.
Well memed. Logical foundations of maths were made by people who were mathematicians before being philosophers
>>7997209
Haha you got me
>>7997939
Wtf is crc?
>>7996786
You need therapy, friend
If you don't want to be optimistic then so be it but why are you bringing others down with you?
That doesn't make you autistic, that makes you self-conceited and selfish as fuck. But that's just my opinion, regarding your opinion.
I think your opinion is objectively pessimistic though.
Also to say that art and literature has a direct increase for the average standard of living is the most retarded shit I have ever heard.
But surely, the more people who aspire to become like Elon Musk the better. That's who you meant right? Nikola Tesla didn't directly help the world. He just invented shit cause he liked to do that. Much like mathematicians do. It seemed like, after society failed to recognize him, he lost hope in trying to apply his 'tools' and just made more for the sake of passion.
Physics and quantum shit is my passion, but I recognize that it probably won't help society when the real problem is politics and economy. Instead of finance I would prefer going into mathematical economics or something like that
Peace corps? Haha don't be so naive. That shit really only attempts to manage the horrors of wars and other disasters; the underlying cause is still left completely unresolved
So reducing altruism to a fucking meme is just disgraceful, and you probably need therapy if you really feel the need to force your toxic views down peoples throats.
>>7998332
Um no. The first mathematicians were philosophers before they were mathematicians; they often put philosophy at a much higher importance than math itself.
Sure they were trying to solve problems that may be fundamentally math (or physics rather. just trying to explain reality and phenomenon itself) but they realized, or rather they had the perspective that philosophy was required to be able to even begin to create a framework that could explain these phenomena
Maybe I have the wrong people in mind, who exactly did you have in mind when you made the claim?
I could elaborate greatly if anyone wants, since it seems there is no one else around here thus far that actually understands philosophy...
>>7996912
What about PDE's?
>>7998329
Last sentence of your comment was the point.
>>7996394
I recommend reading this book
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3095024-is-god-a-mathematician
>>7997100
>he thinks engineering is rigorous
HAHAHAHA
Engineers don't give 2 shits about rigor. They care about actual USEFULNESS. As long as an equation gives correct (or approximately correct) results engineers will use it regardless of whatever inconsistencies it might introduce.
"Shall I refuse my dinner because I do not fully understand the process of digestion?" - Oliver Heaviside
>>7998459
Many schools require PDE and complex variables for their engineering majors. I went to UCLA, and we took those courses as well as an upper division non-linear DE class, all taught by the mechanical engineering department.
>>7998329
> In France and Russia they just spend their math education doing problems NOT in textbooks.
I'm a math major in France and while it's true we hardly ever use textbooks we still do repetitive exercises ("repetition is the basis of pedagogy" says my algebra prof). Why would anyone care whether a problem is printed in a book or written on a board by the prof ?
And on baitopic, math students aren't that smug. There's just department rivalry with Counter Strike majors, making fun of bio trash, and hating premeds who think they're hot shit (ie. nearly all of them). And lit student jokes are our version of blond jokes.
Premeds however, they sit together in bio classes to circlejerk and don't even talk to the bio plebs.
ITT engineers laughing at people way more intelligent and capable of themselves while forgetting to suck the dick in front of them.
![7rmd7[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/PGD88W1.jpg "7rmd7[1].jpg")
>>7998356
I have to agree with what was said here. Additionally, it hasn't changed. Philosophy remains an essential part of science.
because it's really fucking hard
and we work all the time
way harder than any other person i've encountered at my school
so you begin convincing yourself that you are smarter because you work harder and thus probably learn more
sage for bullshit thread
>>8000610
>sage for bullshit thread
telling people you are saging is against the rules now. enjoy your ban
>>8000518
Interesting picture, thanks for sharing. I wonder if learning about formal science would allow one to intuitively master all the other branches, but awareness in how the branches of science are related seems to be really important and sorely neglected in the modern age
>>8000518
Philosophy here. It's important to remember that the field is absurd broad and 95% of the people working in it are simply re-teaching insular topics completely useless to science. I think it's only fair to consider philosophy essential to science if you consider math and topics in computing like complexity theory to be part of philosophy.
>>8002757
>I wonder if learning about formal science would allow one to intuitively master all the other branches
No, it wouldn't allow that. It's the same with that meme field purity pic that has caused people to go into maths because it's the 'purest'. Mastering mathematics doesn't mean you are a master at chemistry or biology. Do you think it's a coincidence that mathematicians and philosophers aren't hired as engineers or scientists? Bottom-line, there's a good reason different fields of science exist to be studied.
>>8002765
>Do you think it's a coincidence that mathematicians and philosophers aren't hired as engineers or scientists?
Um... Mathematicians are hired as engineers all the time
>>8002765
This. They're just too different. Of course the gap between pure and applied math isn't too bad, but jumping from theoretical to natural sciences just won't work.
>>8002772
Buddy do some research. This is just a meme and people majoring in math get hired a lot. I know lots of engineers that cannot even find any work BTW
>>8002781
The root of the question is whether or not formal systems are relevant to learning things like chemistry and biology, not the employability of math majors. Stop introducing your own insecurities.
>>8002798
My insecurities? Lolwut
I was simply replying to this statement
>jumping from theoretical to natural sciences just won't work.
If a math major can get hired as an engineer, then clearly it does work...
>>7996394
The usefulness of a field has nothing to do with the difficulty to master it. Mathematicians are arrogant about their field of study because it is the hardest do get through. I don't care if you can build a flying car, because dealing with high mathematics is a lot more intelectually challenging.
>>7996394
Mathematicians are clever. They are cleverer than most other people and that's just a fact. They know this, and they tend to condescend to others, whom they may or may not be cleverer than.
It takes more creativity and intelligence to make a breakthrough theorem in maths than it does to make bulletproof plates.
That being said, maths is not the "purest" field because it is actually a subset of philosophy, to which physics also belongs.
Since physics draws on certain philosophical axioms that maths does not, physics can't be described as a subset or "applied" maths.
So as far as objectivity and intelligence goes, mathematicians and physicists are probably about on a par generally. Though I do believe there are more physicists than mathematicians overall.
>>8002798
>The root of the question is whether or not formal systems are relevant to learning things like chemistry and biology
They are. Next?
>>7997668
>But seriously going with that logic, philosophers are really the guys that made math. Isn't math just applied philosophy? You know, axioms and shit
Yeah sure, the guys who actually invented all of that stuff can be smug too. I think they are all dead though.
>>7996394
I'm not a mathematician but I do grant them their smugness. They're one of the few who deserve it. Anyone who can seriously get interested in this extreme abstractness is worthy of praise because they're true intellectuals.
>>7996890
Hey retard, assuming you have actually done some real engineering work and aren't talking out your ass, you most likely have used some sort of physics simulation software. That or you are aware other engineers do.
Who do you think developed the algorithms for the software to work? Numerical analysts. Who constantly use results in functional analysis to prove their results.
Source: About to finish a PhD in computational math.
>>7996394
Pretty soon they're going to be replaced by computers.
>>7996394
I've found math majors to be the least smug. If anything, physicists and engineers are the ones blasting their big dick about how their degree is better than everyone else's.
They're the second most pure field. Field purity is like a negatively sloped line.
However, field usefulness is a parabola.
>>8004865
What the fuck?
>>7998694
That wasn't his point, though. His point is that engineering is the STEM field that makes people that aren't interested in pursuing math or physics do math and physics past their 1A semester.
>>7998748
Same in my country
every mathematician i've ever known has been at least two of the following:
1: severely depressed and always too tired to care about anything
2: severely insecure about themselves and their mathematical ability
3: hopelessly detached from reality
the only time i've ever seen a mathematician display smugness is through a deep complacency that i believe i have only ever seen in mathematicians
>>8004940
Point number 2 and 3 hit the nail on the head for me
>>8004940
i only know one math major and he's the most depressed person i have ever seen
why are they so sad?
because the distribution of mathematical talent has a fatter upper-tail than the distribution of engineering talent.
Do you understand what that means, engineercuck? Or are you too much of a brainlet?
>>8005110
because you will never do all the math
>>8004940
they're a different species entirely
be nice to mathematicians, anons
>>8004940
>mfw when I'm all three
>>8005380
have you considered becoming a mathematician
>>8005391
Unfortunately that's probably what will happen since my MSc math is basically useless outside of academia
Is serge lang's basic mathematics any good?
>>8005398
welcome to the club
>>8005411
i'm going through it and I think it's good
>>8002825
>They are cleverer than most other people and that's just a fact.
they are clever in the field they invented. and they invented the field only because they suck outside this field.
>>7998694
Did you completely ignore my parenthetical remark? Or are you just some braindead undergrad?
>>7997100
This is surprisingly true in my experience.
It's quite shocking to see how many of my peers in engineering are only in it because of the money and the prospects of getting an easy braindead job.
These are the kinds of people who raise their hands during a Calc 2 lecture and asks if limits have any applications in real life.
At the end of the day I don't care if they manage to get their degree or not. They don't deserve to be called engineers, or anything for that matter.
I'd even go as far as to say that there's some serious fucking character defect for a people that are that disingenuous. They can't even afford to be serious about the roots of their profession. There's no passion involved, no dedication - arguably the fucking roots of life and existence itself.
Mathematicians and scientists typically inhabit the opposite of the spectrum however and that makes them somewhat respectable.
But you know how they say there are tons of engineering majors out there that still don't have jobs and that STEM crisis is a lie?
The STEM crisis is real, but not in terms of pieces of paper. The actual number of people who actually deserve to be anywhere inside STEM is a small fraction of the current majors in STEM right now or the number of STEM graduates due to the college bubble giving pieces of paper to anybody and their dog who wants to pay money.
>>8006121
Because honestly, and I'll admit this is true: the typical engineer is quite retarded, and I attend a top 5 school in engineering. You can probably guess which one, but I digress. Imagine what its like in the sea of lower ranked schools.
But if you really want to see this dumbification in action, just look at your typically CS major these days. Ages ago there used to be a time where CS was somewhat respectable, but due to the entire coding/software buzz, everything has been dumbed down to accomodate for the large demographic of fucking idiots who want an easy coding job.
It's really the same for the broad spectrum of engineering, albeit to somewhat a lesser extent since it's not as simple and attractive as typing away lines and getting paid while relaxing in bed.
>>8006132
But that just makes the people heading into pure sciences and math even more respectable, because you know they've been exposed to all these retarded advertising campaigns advocating for people to oversaturate the CS and Engineering field for easy jobs for being idiots, and they ignored it.
Because at the end of the day, America is a country that hates mathematics or anything that has to remotely do with it. There will be no movements to get more people into math because those it is completely unmarketable.
That's probably why most math majors are really sad. Because everyone else thinks all they do is play with calculators, nobody respects them, etc. They'll probably end up making less money at the end of the day as well, but they did it because they really were into math?
It's really that singular attraction that sets them apart from anyone else. Unmotivated by money, power, or greed, or even sex. Just want to do mathematics for the sake of it with no ulterior motive? That's some real integrity right there. Grigori Perelman is a prime example of this.
>>8006140
As a mathematician your post makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. <3
>>8005553
You ain't even trying son
>>7998342
>>/reddit/
>>7996476
"purity" doesn't mean "better"
>>8005553
Lowest quality bait I've seen in a while.
>>7998356
>this is what philobullshitters actually believe
lmao
>be riding on airplane
>girl sitting next to me asks what do i do for a living
>i say mathematician
>she says nothing and keeps reading her magazine for the rest of the 9 hour flight
... do you wanna see the proof that real numbers are uncountable?
>she asks waitress to change seats
>mfw
>>7996421
Engineers can't into transitivity
> /sci/, what is it about math majors and mathematicians that makes them so goddamn smug?
The mistaken belief that because their knowledge isntly widely it is therefore more elite/special.
Same reason why uni students in general can be so dam smug
>>8010681
See that's where you're wrong, I drop Cantor only right after coitus
[spoiler] and then I talk about the Cantor pairing function more often than about Diagonal arguments [/spoiler]
I want to major in math because math is sexy and cozy, but at the same time chemistry is great and I want to have my own home lab some day. Which is better to keep as a hobby?
I'm also interested in mechanical engineering, but not from an intellectual perspective. I have to declare my major soon and I just don't know anons.
>BS Chem major with a focus in Physical Chemistry
>minor in mathematics included within the rigor of the degree
>if I stay another semester I could get a BS in physics as well just from the amped up ACS accredited curriculum
>work in spectroscopy lab
>literally kill myself studying every day
>mfw my friend switched to Chem E only to find they let you bring notes and formulas to the exam
>mfw the rigors of being a chem major instantly made him the top Chem E student
>mfw he will start at $90,000+ salary in petroleum industry
>mfw I'm still down in my lab trying to save the world and will have to earn a PhD before my salary will be equal to that of an engineer.
tl;dr- finally understand why my classical mechanics professor told all the engineering students in the classroom how much he hatesaid them
>>7996590
von neumann, feynman, schrödinger
I think if you step outside of /sci/ you'll find that math majors and mathematicians are just regular people like everyone one else. I'm a math major and my friend group is mostly made of engineering majors and science majors, everyone respects what everyone else is doing because we know we're all passionate about it. There's some banter where the engineering kids will tell me they'll make more money and I'll tell them they don't actually know anything, but we still unite and make fun of the bio majors.
>>8011332
can't confirm.
I'm a physics major (theory) who worked with Engineers all day every day where I did my PhD and I have a definite disrespect for them (their motivations, capabilities and philosophical outlook).
>>8011357
Funny, I'm a chemical enigneer and I find the majority of physics and math faculty to be ambitiousless TBT watching hacks. I've literally published more AMS papers than half the math grad-students here.
Math and physics students (including postgrads) fall into 3 definitive categories:
1. Actual talented, passionate and hard working individuals (utter minority).
2. Couldn't get into engineering (majority).
3. Would be high-school teachers with fuckall ambition who pretend to enjoy mathematics, but has taken less advanced courses than most engineering students.
>>8011391
There are ambitionless hacks in every department, engineering included. But this is far more apaprent in undergrad "engineers".
My ChemE department is filled with dumb chads who party all day and don't give a fuck about anything because mommy and daddy have a position lined up for them at a petroleum company or something.
My CS department is (shocker) filled with retards who want an easy job in the bay area after graduation typing up code and are absolutely terrified of intro level physics courses which are required.
My ECE department is filled with dudebros going into power engineering because it's the easiest and least math related topic in ECE, so they can get a job easy at GE or whatever power company that's run by 70 year old white dudes who are about to retire or die.
Even many kids in the physics department start going, "hmm finance" after a couple of years.
>>7996394
>being this insecure about your field
and I don't think about you at all
>>7998748
Are you in MPSI?
>>8004940
1 and 2 senpai
