>I don't know the math but here's my opinion on quantum mechanics
>>7993821
>0.999...=1
>>7993821
Why can't people have an opinion on it if they've read about some of the theories? Like the idea of quantum physics entices me and I love it, but you're saying my opinion is invalid because I don't know the math? Gtfo
>my IQ is 150 xd
>>7995085
Because if you don't know the math then what is your justification for anything you believe?
I mean, I can say that I am super rich and have the biggest dick in the world, but if I have nothing to prove it then people will just tell me to fuck off once I have repeated it the second time.
The same happens with your retarded popsci ideas that have nothing to back them up.
>>7995085
That is correct. If you don't know the math, your opinion about quantum mechanics is meaningless.
>>7995111
Then in that case most people cant fucking believe anything because they have not done the research themselves. I guess I just trust that these theories aren't made up by scientists and the government to brainwash the public. What you just fucking said can be said about basic physics for most people, basic environmental science (evidence) for most people, etc. Kys anon
>>7995118
Well most people haven't personally done the research for global warming and found evidence, I guess their opinions are meaningless?
>>7995111
Its possible to be able to appreciate a theory and the various arguments without being able to follow or fully appreciate the math, and since half the arguments around quantum mechanics are basically philosophical ones anyone who can follow the argument can have an opinion
>>7995079
This is a spoof right?
>>7995123
Thank you. What this nigga is saying applies to most people with most scientific topics haha
>I hate math
>>7995119
>believe
But this is the problem. You can believe whatever you want, you just won't ever have a valid opinion in the field.
You want to "believe" (even though believe is not the right word here but whatever) quantum mechanics? Fair enough, believe it. But then don't take the extra step of starting to come up with your own ideas and opinions about certain topics in quantum mechanics, unless you know what the fuck you are talking about.
Imagine if we didn't. Retards like you can "believe" environmental science, but then imagine that in your infinite stupidity you then claim that "maybe if we throw our shit into the river, the shit will cleanse it of the pollution". You would be no more than a retard. But if then you actually do the research in a contained and for research purposes envinronment and find out that shit actually cleanses the world then go right the fuck ahead.
>>7995123
>half the arguments around quantum mechanics are basically philosophical ones
>quantum mechanics are basically philosophical ones
>philosophical ones
>philosophical
>philosophy
Kill your fucking self, back to /his/ you braindead monkey.
>>7995135
If you honestly believe that copenhagen/many worlds is anything other than a philosophical spat you beyond brainlet status
And you know damn well im talking about the QM arguments that random idiots on the street might actually have an opinion on, rather than any of the arguments that actually matter
>>7995131
Dude you have the audacity to call me a retard? I can have a fucking opinion about anything and it can be valid because it's my opinion, whether I know the facts or not. I want to study quantum mechanics because my opinion of it is that it's cool. But since I don't know the math that opinion is invalid? I've literally read up on what it is and what it pertains to, I don't need to know math to know it's an interesting subject.
>>7995135
You know what he meant. And in a way he is kind of right, there are some quantum mechanic theories that tie into consciousness and certain fields of philosophy.
ITT OP is a fucking retard.
>>7995146
>Dude you have the audacity to call me a retard?
Are you getting offended in 4chan?
Age guess: 12
> I can have a fucking opinion about anything and it can be valid because it's my opinio
Spoiled little brat/bitch aren't we?
Age guess: 15
> I want to study quantum mechanics because my opinion of it is that it's cool.
Using the word cool?
Age guess: 13
> I don't need to know math
Damn right! You know, why don't we take out all the PhDs out of academia and just fill it with people like you. Just keep on reading random books and then coming up with*COOL* ideas LOL XD LOOOOOL
+1 REDDITS MY FRIEND, RETWEET, SHARE AND 20 GOOGLE PLUSES XDDDD
>>7995135
>your
>>7995155
What does p=np have to do with QM?
>>7995159
I'm just giving another example I've seen of morons thinking that fields of mathematics can be explained by simple word playing, as they do in philosophy.
KILL
YOUR
SELF
"Set theory cannot be regarded as the foundation of mathematics."
>>7995085
>Why can't people have an opinion on Russian poetry if they've read some of the SparkNotes? Like the idea of communism entices me and I love it, but you're saying my opinion is invalid because I don't know how to speak Russian? Gtfo
>>7995144
>consciousness
Stop
>>7995151
Oh man... I never got offended, although since you are clearly losing this argument you need to pull out shitty insults. If you even knew what the word "audacity" means then you would understand that I was actually insulting you. Also, because I use the word cool I'm 13? Where do you live where you've never heard another guy say the word "cool"?
>>7995155
No one ever said that. I also meant certain parts of quantum mechanics.
>>7995175
>losing the argument
You are fucking 12. There is mo argument, you are just retarded.
>>7995179
There is. Everyone replying in this thread right now is against you because you're fucking stupid.
>>7995122
You don't understand. QM is completely counterintuitive but the math makes sense and dictates it. That's the exact reason why QM is now the root of every pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo bullshit. Because people with no knowledge in maths are talking about QM.
So yes, if you don't know the mathematics behind it, your opinion is completely invalid.
>>7995119
>most people cant fucking believe anything because they have not done the research themselves.
I'll take a venture and say that you're projecting yourself on to other people.
Because of people like you there are anti vaccine idiots.
>Ill just read blogs that cradle my unshakable 'belief' and go HURR DRUGS BAD.
Notice how I said belief instead of knowledge
>>7995167
Didn't know I had to speak Russian to know what communism is. Your analogy defeated itself.
>>7995175
> you are clearly losing this argument
>He thinks that in arguments there are winners and losers
Oh man, not only would you be a shit physicist, you'd also be a shit philosopher. You are all around just a huge piece of shit.
You have no legs to stand up. You know why? Because whatever bullshit comes out of your retarded mouth, you will never be able to argue for, as you lack the mathematical foundation of... everything.
What is your major?
Oh, whoops. I mean, when you graduate highschool, what will you major in?
>>7995185
So what level of "knowing the maths" do you consider necessary to have an opinion?
>>7995185
Right and I get some of these theories out there are fucking crazy but I guess what you're saying is I can't trust accredited scientists? Maybe I'll understand your view if I ever delve into the topic but I still have a general idea of what it is and thus I can at least know I'm interested in it.
>Earth revolves around the Sun
>>7995193
Enough that you can explain what you are talking about.
Want to talk about your opinion on falling objects? Know your derivatives and integrals and I will respect your opinion.
Want to talk about the nature of the universe?
Well... oh boy... where to start.
>>7995188
Ok, what are you trying to get at? People who distrust vaccines usually know nothing about them, just like the general public that does trust them. People know what they are though, they just don't know the details because they aren't fucking doctors. You don't need to know an entire subject just to have an opinion on it ffs.
>>7995191
Perhaps a better analogy would be, "Is it possible to have a valid opinion on the truth of the equality [math] 0.999... = 1 [/math] if one doesn't understand the mathematics behind the definition of the real numbers?"
>>7995144
Copenhagen/many world's IS philosophy, that's true.
BUT literally nobody is talking about that shit in real academia. People are just talking about implications and improvements.
Not about
>in another universe I can finally fuck my furry waifu xD
People don't understand the basics of quantum physics to even start considering talking about it.
Furthermore, the most students have difficulty understanding the basics and they even have the mathematical background.
>>7995192
I only said you're losing because it's evident to me there are at least 3 people disagreeing with you right now with no one to defend you. Of course that doesn't mean you're losing the argument (people will always have their opinions) but what you're saying has been disproved. I alluded to global warming and the liberals that support it but ofc you're not going to argue that because you know I am right.
why even OP?
>>7995203
Oh ok so I know basic calculus like derivatives and integrals but I'm now a master of gravity and I can have an opinion on it? Ok ok. So I guess everyone that hasn't taken basic calculus can't have an opinion on a force that they experience every day.
>>7995206
Of fucking course I can't have an opinion on that if I don't understand it/know what it is. I can still have an opinion on Quantum mechanics knowing what it is.
>>7993821
That shit pisses me off to no end. My sister is really into popsci shit and when she learned I had taken some courses on it from my fucking mom she always asks me stuff that I can tell she saw on some retarded TV show, she asks me about the "romantic implications" and shit like that or her own "theories" about how it all works
I want to fucking kill her whenever she asks me these things, FUCK it's annoying
>>7995209
This is my point though. Random people on the street with opinions on QM are only talking about shit like that, they dont understand enough to even know what the real arguments are
>>7995213
>it's evident to me there are at least 3 people
>ad populum
So I was right about you also being a shit philosopher.
I didn't even read your shit about global warming, and I don't plan to scroll up for that.
You see now? I don't care about your retarded opinion. You know why? Because you don't know the math.
Imagine if a faggot piece of shit like you was the first to cry 'global warming' without knowing chemistry, biology and physics. We'd all thing you are a piece of shit... and you are.
>>7995222
Well, people before calculus had opinions about how to describe motion.
Then we found they were all wrong retarded pieces of shit... kinda like you.
>>7995209
Again, why does someone need to have the mathematical knowledge to have an opinion on something? Like if someone didn't know how time dilation worked, they can't have an opinion on it? They'd know what it is (difference in the way time runs in different scenarios) but since they dont know the exact mathematics behind it they can't have valid opinions? Oh man I'm about to abandon thread soon.
>>7995222
You still don't get it. You have to at least know linear algebra to know what a Hilbert space is to even considering understanding QM. That's like the most basic thing.
ITT: mathnerds circlejerk about their love for their own intellect, again
>>7995233
>You don't need to understand something before you make statements about that something
I think you should go ask your professors why it is that they mark your answers as 'wrong' in your tests.
I mean, you are just having an opinion right? Your opinions could be valid right?
>>7995226
I misunderstood. But yeah, it pisses me the fuck off. I for myself needed months to understand the basics of this shit and now people are coming to me like "hurr my theory of QM"
>>7995230
I don't know jack shit about philosophy like I did not know the specific term to describe what I had talked about. IF you read the post I said that I knew the argument wasn't being defeated because there were multiple people on this side (read man). Also my opinion is irrelevant on this subject matter because I don't know mathematics? At this point we're not even talking about quantum mechanics but rather when people's opinions are valid/invalid. You sound to me like some really pompous graduate student that thinks he's superior to everyone because he's studying something most of the world doesn't even know about. Am I right or no?
back in the day asimov conveyed concepts and his readers understood them. there is value in that but perhaps that is /lit/
>>7995236
We're not talking about understanding it we're talking about having opinions on it.
>>7995244
You are either autistic, regarded, or this is bait.
Go to sleep anon. You don't need to get offended.
ITT TIL /sci/ pejorative of choice is brainlet
>>7995244
>I don't know jack shit about philosophy
Oh believe, I know. Fuck me, I fucking fucking know.
>when people's opinions are valid/invalid.
An opinion is valid when you can back up what you are saying.
I will say it again. My opinion is that I have the biggest dick in the universe. NO! I don't have anything to show to prove it. Just believe me okay?
And you would be wrong about me being a graduate student.
I'm already out of the university vagina and I came out as a grown adult.
Text me when you do the same, Billy.
>>7995250
You can't have an opinion without understanding it.
Are you retarded? How can you say: "my hypothesis is, that A leads to B"
When you don't even know what A means???
>>7995241
There is a difference between opinion and fact. Me getting an answer wrong on a physics test is fact. If the professor says one day "Quantum mechanics is.... involving theories usually surrounding...." then I can have an opinion on it. The only other example I can give to you is this: You are in high school and have absolutely no idea what you want to do. Then you discover physics. You read about the basic ideas of physics: math and science regarding the natural laws of our universe. You think: cool! I'm going to start looking more into this. You take a class your sophomore year. But wait! You think physics is cool yet you haven't even taken a fucking class to understand the math behind it! Therefore your opinion is irrelevant until you become a master of physics! If you can't see my point after this example I'm leaving the thread.
>>7995257
I didn't mean that. Just read that shit about high school and physics above.
>>7995241
>>7995233
I'm not shocked that a mathnerd and a sociology major can't communicate, but let me try to help you guys.
>>7995241 is essentially arguing from the standpoint that unsupported claims aren't worth discussing, and seems to not fully understand the difference between opinion and fact. He is also defining "knowing the math" as understanding the concepts that govern the numbers and why they interact that way. His argument is that you can't discuss math in a meaningful way unless you know math, but he seems to be going a step deeper and be arguing that you must have a very robust understanding of math to even begin a discussion, which is fucking asinine because no one has a very robust understanding of math, only of the math we know.
>>7995233 is defining "knowing the math" as being able to solve equations and arithmetic. He is arguing from the standpoint that you don't need to fully understand something to form an opinion about it, regardless of the thing you are forming an opinion about. His argument is that you can discuss math without having a full understanding of the concepts in question because a lack of understanding doesn't actually prevent you from knowing some part of it. While he's not wrong, it's also kind of a shortsighted perspective and a little too literal.
In short, both of you are arguing different fucking things without realizing it, and both of you are stupid, anyway.
>>7995257
I don't know but for some reason Congress does.
>>7995261
>Therefore your opinion is irrelevant until you become a master of physics!
It is actually irrelevant, to everyone else but you.
In yoru scenario, a kid discovers he likes physics and has the opinion that physics is cool.
Assume you are not actually self inserting yourself here, and are actually an outside viewer.
Is his opinion relevant to you? Of course it fucking isn't. Why would you care if a retarded brat thinks that physics is cool?
But for that kid his opinion is relevant, as it is his maybe uninformed choice for what he wants to do with his life. We all start somewhere and he is started from a hunch he has that studying physics will pay off in the end. That is pretty much what we all have when starting something new.
So yeah, don't expect other people to care about your retarded opinions until you have that PhD.
Fun fact: That is why a lot of authors immediately slap 'PhD' with a font size of like 800 in the cover of every book they produce.
>>7995267
He never said you couldn't, it is just that your opinion is worth jack shit and it can give wrong impression about spirituality.
>>7995277
Yeah see this is why I'm leaving thread. You are misunderstanding my original argument. Just to give you a little insight, I am a highschooler (18) that will be going to college next year to double major in physics and mathematics. I think quantum physics is interesting but I guess that's invalid to you because I don't understand it. What you're telling me is that my opinion of thinking this topic is cool is wrong. What
>>7995290
>What you're telling me is that my opinion of thinking this topic is cool is wrong.
It is not a wrong opinion. It just has nothing of value, there is no reason to even think about your opinion , unless you are yourself.
>>7995290
Your opinion of thinking this topic is cool without understanding the topic is what leads to abominations of popsci such as Bioshock Infinite.
>>7995290
Oh, and by the way. I've seen your kind before. Those who go for the popsci side of things and then claim they have an interest in it.
I had a friend in highschool who would actually memorize the name of fundamental particles without even knowing what they were.
You know where he is right now? Fucking computer science. The lowest of all sciences.
You will fail calculus one and then you will transfer to CS or biology and then kill yourself at the age of 30.
Good fucking luck.
>>7995292
You're backpedaling m8. The original statement said invalid, not irrelevant. You're saying my opinion is WRONG. Not that it doesn't matter.
>>7995290
This goes the same for every science fanatic. You will think that your overwhelming passion for science will lead you to become the next Feynmann. You will then fail basic mechanics or realize you actually don't know jack shit.
>>7995298
But that's the thing I want to go into the actual science and I probably will end up being successful. I didn't get interested in physics because of popsci I got interested in it because of my own thoughts. Really to tell you the whole thing: I started wondering HOW our universe existed and thus got into cosmology and astrophysics. From that I got interested into physics and theoretical physics.
>>7995302
Well, if you can't scroll to read your original statement maybe you really are better off thinking "Ha I totally won that argument". Fucking retard.
>>7995300
No I don't just know the name of shit without actually understanding it. I'm not fucking stupid by the way man I've already taken calculus AB and gotten a 5 (I don't wanna hear jack shit about the fact that it's AP and not a real college class, I know someone who took the AP class with me then took calc 1 in college and he said it was all the same). I've done research and desu the only popsci ideas that I've looked into was some QM theories such as quantum entanglement. Relativity is not a popsci idea is it? Because I'm reading about it. Why? Because I like fucking physics!
>>7995310
Every single kid is like you. Either start reading the recomended literature know or become one more of the crowd. You interest in physics is nothing special.
>I will probably end up being successful
God, if you don't stop having this poisonous mentality you will crash and burn.
>>7995305
No I never said about going on to do great things in the field. I just knew I liked it.
>>7995314
>I like fucking physics!
I fucking love science! xD
>>7995319
Actually if you go read one of the fucking posts I just made you would know I'm above average when it comes to knowing about physics.
>>7995322
Didn't mean to address you in that other post. Anyways you seem to be implying i'm some edgy teen that thinks science is cool and shit. I've thought a lot about this shit and I've put the work in. I know what I'm getting into.
>>7995310
That's great and admirable. Thinking the topic is interesting is a normal thing to do. Just don't repeat anything about the topic you hear online, and don't form claims or opinions about the topic before taking a class on it. I'm a physics major right now and I will refrain from even mentioning quantum mechanics in any setting because I have not taken the course yet, and I don't want to embarrass myself.
>>7995135
What do you think Ph.D. stands for?
>>7995324
Knowing the existence of certain fields of physics doesn't give you a comprehensive knowledge. Get of yourself before you waste your parents money on something you will fail.
>>7995111
While, by the dunning-kreuger effect, lots of stupid people will think they're super deep and can find new physics on their own when they don't know what they're talking about, and while this is really frustrating, I think that more broadly speaking, people can have valid and interesting opinions about QM without really understanding the math. It has lots of compelling philosophical consequences that are more accessible. E.g. you don't have to be an expert on Bell's inequality to have interesting ideas about local realism
>>7995334
The term comes from the literal translation from Greek that means loving knowledge.
>>7995333
Fuck man you're misunderstanding me yet again. You can still know BASICALLY what quantum mechanics is and have some form of opinion on it. I'm not saying you would go and talk about popsci theories you found online that the professors/students would find amusing.
>>7995338
Yes you do.
>>7995337
I never said it does but if I know the basics of that field I can have a valid opinion, yes? Why are you so convinced I will fail by the way?
its like all of histories greatest autists rose back to their youth and converged on this thread
>>7995071
[eqn]0.999... = 1 - \lim_{x \to 0} x[/eqn]
>>7995345
Because I'm a teacher at uni and your type always fail first because you are not humble enough to think you can learn most of the basic stuff.
>>7995341
I understand your opinion but I disagree with what knowing is. What I'm saying is that you can't "basically" know without first spending a decent time investment building up prerequisite knowledge, and then spending an extensive amount of time with the material itself. Anything else is popsci.
>>7995339
But the title was awarded originally to show that a person has become a master of the subject and has the ability to philosophize in that area of study.
Philosophizing in physics is asking questions like "could there be large extra dimensions and how could we definitively prove their existence if they actually exist?"
NOT "what does quantum mechanics really mean?"
Because one of those questions is uninformed and the other might have an answer. That's what OP doesn't understand.
>>7995355
Dude I never said this shit was easy. I've literally said nothing about knowing super advanced shit. I'm not going to lie I've had some hiccups with the physics class I'm tkaing and ap calc BC. All I'm saying is that I can at least know what fucking cosmology is and know that I'm interested in it. OP is saying that since I don't know the nitty gritty details of cosmology my opinion is invalid.
i'd just to interject for a moment. don't insult computer science. look at what you're sitting in front of. it's not like we can all teleport into a room to have this discussion.
>>7995146
Sure, you're allowed to think it's cool. But when people say "you're not allowed to have an opinion about quantum mechanics if you don't know math" I think what they mean is "you can't make informed arguments about physics if you don't know math and to think you can makes you a asshole" which seems pretty unobjectionable. Unless you have your own lab in your basement where you're coming up with experimental results Michael Faraday-style, but just interpreting your data would take lots of math
>>7995357
"Cosmology: the science of the origin and development of the universe" I don't need to know the math behind cosmology to know that I'm interested in the field. Do you see what I'm saying?
>>7995363
>super advanced shit.
kek
>>7993821
vote for Bernie or vote for Hillary. Equally retarded. If you want socialism/communism that bad just move to Europe anon or some other shitty place.
>all this hate on popsci
>people actually getting angry that the general public is taking an interest in science
>"nyeeh stop talking about science. I find that threatening to my identity. I'm supposed to be the brainy one. nyeeh"
This is nothing more than the gripes of the typical student who got to the point in his studies where he falsely believes he is close to mastering his field, and therefore thinks he has the right to look down his nose at people who don't know as much.
We all went through this phase, so here's some advice, don't tip your fedora too hard, because you will look back on this with embarrassment.
>>7995334
Lol
>>7995364
Whoever made that original comment is a fucking dumbass. When it comes down to it, the hardware inside a computer is extremely complicated and has been developed over the past couple of decades. I think OP is referring to more of programming and software engineering. The actual math and concept behind a computer is fucking complex as shit
>>7995371
My high school terminology. Never been a good writer.
>>7995363
>>7995368
Yes I understand what you are saying.
Sorry if I appear antagonistic, I'm not trying. If you want to do physics good for you, that's great.
I think we just have a different idea of the difference between advanced and basic knowledge. I am considering even basic knowledge junior level undergrad courses and "super advanced shit" graduate level studies and beyond. Personally I wouldn't form an opinion on just reading the theories. I don't consider that a basic understanding.
>>7995384
I'm 18
>>7993821
>fuck im screwed for this exam
>lectures are a waste of time, but my GPA is only 2.5
>joe rogan is smart
>how can you not believe in astrology
>>7995388
You're being thick. I read the definition of cosmology and think "I have always wondered how our universe existed" thus, based off of the definition, I now have an opinion on the study. How can that be invalid?
>>7995390
Note how I didn't say
>Underage pls go
but rather
>Highschool pls go
You will be in for an unfortunate but necessary awakening when you reach university.
>>7995399
im sure you'll get hired by a university because of your highly developed """"opinions"""" on the subject
people who are in the field don't want to hear laymen opine about shit they have no clue about. any yik-yak can read the defintion of some obscure thing, and you sound like an idiot if you think you can have a developed opinion on something like that after reading about it once
>>7995405
> (You) You will be in for an unfortunate but necessary awakening when you reach something somwhere sometime in life, like all of us
>>7995409
Corollary
>>7995405
I think it won't be as hard on me as it will others. I've worked hard throughout high school. I've taken AP's and become a lot more interested in waht I want to study compared to the average student.
>>7995409
Holy shit how fucking thick are you? I've told you multiple times I'm only arguing with OP on the fact that I can be interested in something. You act like I'm trying to be smart af I'm just saying someone can't tell me my opinion on a area of subject is invalid.
>>7995461
and im saying nobody cares about your opinions
get triggerd
>>7993821
>gene editing is unethical and has adverse effects on human health
>no I haven't even take a basic course in biology or genetics
>>7995461
You seem like an okay guy. What college are you going to?
>>7995468
Again not talking about whether or not you care. Moreof talking about wehther or not the opinion is valid.
>>7995476
NC State. SAT scores and uninterest both freshman and sophomore year are weighing me down. You may think I'm shooting high and I'm unrealistic but I'd like to go to MIT for grad school.
>>7995496
wait did you think i was the same guy as the other one before?
i think you might be braindead, good luck with MIT dude
>>7993821
Did Richard Dawkins say that, or is it a case of Picus Unrelatedus?
>>7995368
>Quantuam Mechanics
> "the cat is alibe and dead at same time :DDDDD"
> ' i love quantum1!!!!'
This thread is pure cancer
>>7996635
This p much
Tbbt quantum popsci memes make me mad
And this is exactly why democracy in the state as it is sucks. People can't be allowed to have equal voting power regardless of their education.
You could give, say, 0.3 vote to someone who works at McDonalds and shitposts on Tumblr the rest of the day, and 1.5 vote to someone who's an accomplished environmental scientist.
Both of these people should have the right to vote, but by no means should they have rights that are equal. Because in the end, giving such equal rights results in poor and socially unoptimal outcomes, which make everyone worse off.
Also, present research has shown that normal people are unable to see who's competent and who isn't:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
It's therefore up to the academia to take control of the society and to impose its own form of governance, before this planet will be completely polluted, depleted of resources and vital ecosystems, and worse.
Also, not to mention:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow's_impossibility_theorem
ITT:
>Non-scientists claim to have zero understanding of something, and scientists assume they mean that literally.
>Scientists claim to have total understanding of something, and non-scientists assume they mean that literally.
No one has "zero" understanding of the mathematics underpinning QM, because that would mean that you don't know arithmetic. There are many complex concepts in mathematics that can be explained formally using words. Many of the ideas at play here are so fundamental that even a layman can grasp them well enough to pose questions and make hypotheses that have value.
>>7995085
I'm with you on this, up to a point. Only autists, elitists and the proverbial pencil neck bullies and assholes would dismiss people out of hand like that. Many if not most scientific discoveries were based first on an idea, the proof was acquired later when the idea had first told people what to look for. Granted, just as many if not more discoveries were made because those calculations based on those previous ideas, inferred things nobody had thought of yet.
Now this is not to say that an idea by itself would have any serious merit. Ultimately, you always need the maths. But it would not be unheard of to imagine that your idea could spark something in the minds of other people, who WOULD know the necessary math and take it further. No matter how remote the chances for this would be.
So, bashing someone down for having an inquisitive mind is just elistist and stupid, and serves no-one. But that said, we all know what it feels like to have someone who doesn't have a clue come to us all convinced about some imaginary product of theirs, telling us how to do our jobs. And no matter how politely we try to tell them otherwise, they just won't accept that their pretty little idea is completely off the mark for a thousand different reasons. No matter how much they might themselves like it. I do understand that it can get intensely annoying after a while.
But I fully support what Sagan and many others have been trying to do: Increasing the awareness for science in the general populace is a good thing. Even if they didn't know the maths required to do anything with it directly. Having people's imaginations ponder about the wonders of science and education is a billion times better, than having them waste on religions, violence and pointless cultural arguments instead. One should not turn those people away, but embrace them.
>>7993821
>I majored in biology because it's the only science which doesn't rely on math.
>>7995472
>let's take a delicate system which has been slowly evolving for billions of years and then fuck with it in a lab for a few days and see what happens
>nothing will go wrong
>>7997037
Don't worry, these people don't get any further than undergrad or even first year.
>>7993821
>all this autistic hate and superiority complex in /sci/
YFW you, much too late in your life, begin to discover that it was never about you alone. That when you throw that ego and self-centered dick of an attitude away and actually start to work with other people, you'll become a hundred times the man you were.
When you're sick, and your colleagues and friends carry you. When you're in over your head, they will lift you up. When life beats you down, they'll pick you back up and go side by side with you into the fray. When you get a particularly nasty project with a dick of a boss who tries to sink your career, they stand up to you, and it's the boss who's forced to retreat instead.
MFW knowing you will never know what it's like to be responsible for an absolutely critical system that's about to fail for reasons not your own, only to have a colleague be so goddamn competent, and of such integrity, that they just happened to check up on things on their vacation just because. And noticed what was going on, noticing they could fix your issue on their end, doing it for you, and not even mentioning about it.
MFW when I go to after-works regularly with my colleagues, my friends, and literally know what it's like to have people who are brothers and sisters in arms. All of us having saved the other, multiple times, and as a group, owning the leading scores in customer and project satisfaction and results in our particular branch of research in our part of the country.
Why? Because you, alone, will NEVER be a fraction of as powerful, as hardy, as goddamned persistent, and as intensely resourceful and energetic as you can be, when you work with a group of people you love working with.
Learn social skills, you guys. Seriously.
>I believe the universe is deterministic because [insert half-baked ad-hoc explanation that misuses basic Newtonian mechanics]
>>7997080
>[insert half-baked ad-hoc explanation that misuses basic Newtonian mechanics]
example?
>>7995348
lim_x->0(x)=0. That means 0.999...= 1-lim_x->0(x) = 1- 0 = 1. Therefore 0.999...=1. Quod Erat Demonstrandum
>>7997086
DUDE LIKE WE CAN PREDICT THE POSITION OF OF A MACROSCOPIC PROJECTILE OVER TIME
THEREFORE WE CAN PREDICT THE EXACT CHEMICAL REACTIONS IN THE BRAIN EVEN THO WE BARELY KNOW SHIT ABOUT THE ORGAN
THEREFORE FREE WILL DOESNT EXIST LMAO
>>7997097
Who the fuck spells out qed
>"are viruses alive?"
>negative entropy
>race mixing decreases diversity
>epigenetics means that if you get good at tennis your children will be genetically good at tennis too
>>7995225
Teach her real science you sperg, they've already prepped her for it by getting her excited about the idea.
>>7995146
>I've literally read up on what it is and what it pertains to, I don't need to know math to know it's an interesting subject.
I'm kinda with you up until this point. Sure you don't need to know the maths to think it's interesting but would'nt the maths provide a better understanding of this subject you find 'cool'?
>>7997098
You don't need to have a full understanding of the brain to disprove free will.
We know it follows physical laws, so free will can't possibly be real.
>>7995146
>my opinion is valid because it's my opinion
your opinion can be shit though, the fact that it's literally not illegal for you to hold an opinion doesn't mean it's not shit
and yes, in this case, your opinion is shit. you don't really know anything about what it means if you don't know the math to understand it. might as well be magic
>>7997367
induction doesn't deal with absolutes and there is very little understanding of how the brain works
try again, brainlet
>>7997377
So you don't think the brain follows the laws of physics?
>>7997381
I don't know how the brain works nor how it comes to be that I am concious but it's far too handwavy for me just dismiss the whole thing as an "illusion" based on your pathetically weak reddit atheist argument.
>>7997277
>women
>capable of learning anything advanced
I keked
>>7997367
>>7997377
>>7997381
>>7997390
Free will is already impossible on a logical level. No physics needed.
Proof:
If you have free will, I'll ask you to explain a decision procedure you consider to be "free".
Case 1: You can fully explain the decision procedure. Thus you have an algorithm to follow and thus your decision was not free.
Case 2: You cannot explain it. Thus you had no control over it.
>>7997421
>you have no control over things you cannot explain in terms of an algorithm
>>7997421
That assumes there is a decision procedure. Free will implies that in some cases there is none. Thus you assume the conclusion. This fallacy is known as "begging the question".
>>7997434
If you aren't consciously making a decision, how can you say you have free will?
>>7997432
>claims to have control
>can't even say over what
>>7997434
Problem goes in. Decision comes out. Whatever happens inbetween - if you have control over it, you must be able to explain it.
>>7997440
is this what qualifies as a logical argument in your feeble mind?
>>7997448
>if you have control over it, you must be able to explain it.
this is just a bullshit statement with no argument behind it. I can do the same:
"you do not need to be able to explain process to have control over it."
stop bothering with these pathetic brainlet arguments
>>7997461
By what mechanism did you just "freely" decide to dismiss logic and to be a faggot instead?
>>7997466
Not him, but one could answer, "By the mechanism of free will."
>>7997466
and there it is!
the brainlet surrenders
>>7997463
However you made that decision is your decision procedure.
>>7995085
>Why can't people have an idiotic opinion
That is the problem, Sherlock.
>>7997467
How do you know you have control over this "free will"?
>>7997073
>Spend entire life hated because arrogant prick with a giant ego
>No one gives a shit about me
>Stop being a gigantic nigger one day
>Social skills are still bad
>Despite this people like me a lot because I come off more as a well meaning weirdo than a cunt
>Professors start liking me and do the most bro tier shit because of it
He's right you know
>I don't know nothin'bout no Science nor Math
>but here's my idiotic Medieval opinion anyway
>>7997478
I don't know if I have control over it, or if it is even something localized to any "I" within the universe. Perhaps it is a freedom of the universe as a whole, a freedom of "God" to determine itself.
>>7995123
>half the arguments around quantum mechanics are basically philosophical ones
>>7995195
Without actual mathematical knowledge you won't have a clue what quantum mechanics is. You can hear an accredited scientist say something about a superposition or what have you and you can repeat that back but you won't know what it means.
>>7993821
>"The Planck Length is likel the screen resolution of the universe"
>>7995250
You can't make factual statements about reality and then hide behind "It's just my opinion!". You can think its cool.
>>7997543
Superposition isn't a complex concept. You're overestimating.
>>7995250
Can you have an opinion on a book without knowing the plot?
>>7995375
>interest in science
>blindly and uncomprehendingly repeat misinterpreted "facts"
>when asked to actually learn about what they're saying they throw a hissy fit about their goddamned "opinion"
>>7996898
>there is absolutely no chance of the government abusing this power
>I'm definitely one of the chosen elite
>Dunning-Kruger
>literally meme science
http://danluu.com/dunning-kruger/
I hope to god this is satire
>>7996899
there are people that don't understand arithmetic.
pic related
>>7997042
>delicate
the vast majority of mutations are neutral and neither harm nor help
>>7997390
wait a minute are you not reductionist?
>>7997557
that was an example.
>>7995225
What a dumb thing to be upset about
>>7997409
advanced dick sucking
>>7997611
I see you haven't met /r9k/ yet. Lucky you.
>>7997043
not entirely true from what i've seen but it's still kinda funny
>>7995085
You're opinion IS invalid because you can't do the math.
>>7995122
They don't have to personally do the research but they have to understand the research.
>>7997605
And that example was said to not be true. Any other examples? I've watched many documentaries about the double-slit and other related experiments like delayed erasure, I may not know the math but I have a good understanding of the concepts. You can understand a concept without understanding numbers. Not perfectly (as far as scientists know as of now), no, but you can get a pretty damn good understanding of it.
>>7995079
LOL....
What an absolute fool :-\
>>7996898
THIS
Is the actual reason for free education in the USA.
You must be able to read, use english correctly, understand logic to make reasonable decisions - like voting.
I believe only ppl over 99 IQ should be able to vote, but that's prob racist or anti- plebeian?
>>7998349
It fundamentally fucks with the US image that all people are equal. And it is strictly unconstitutional from some post-slavery supreme court ruling
Personally I'm for a basic literacy + knowledge about the candidates or a test on the US like the citizenship test.
Apathy and ignorance kill democracies.
>>7995071
0.9999... = 9/10(1 + 1/10 + 1/100 + ...) = 9/10[ 1 /(1-1/10)] = (9/10)(10/9) = 1
>doesn't believe in free will
>still gets mad at people who do even if it wasn't their choice
>>7998391
Knowledge of Consequences like triggering an anger response in the reptilian part of my brain is still part of the deterministic system
>>7993821
>ITT stupid shit brainlets say
>>7998368
Thank you. Right on the nail.
One possible work around is weighted voting, where people get their vote counted for being worth more depending upon their contribution to society.
100 illiterates =100 votes
100 standard plebs = 1,000 votes
100 productive smart educated people = 100,000 votes.
100 productive genius level people = 1,000,000 votes
But a system like this is just too fucking sensible.
In fairness even people who know the math disagree violently (see Einstein, Bohr, bohm, and Schrödinger) about quantum mechanics.
>>7998391
Just because theres no free will doesn't mean I can't change someone's mind, kid.
>>7995193
Probability and partial differential equations, at least.
>>7998429
fucking hell could edgy faggots go back to pol and stay there
>>7998594
>fucking hell could edgy faggots go back to pol and stay there
Edginess and autism aside, there is a point there. Obviously this could rephrased a whole lot better, but the idea has serious merit.
The basic idea behind democracy is that the prevailing opinion wins. So right or wrong, the nation goes where the majority of its people want it to. This sounds good on paper, because in an equal world, that's the only way it could work. In an older world, the main questions democracy needed to solve were things like "is that guy leading us an asshole or not?" and "do I want more food, and maybe better education for my kids"? Now, they're FAR more refined.
Be honest, which would make you feel safer?
1) For the planet's future to be in the hands of random homeless, alcoholic, juvenile delinquent dicks, yesterday's immigrants, and / or the rich who wanted nothing but to replace you with cheaper workforce and throw you and your town away for personal profit?
Or
2) For it to be in the hands of leading scientists, ecologists, historians and doctors, who were GOOD in heart and mind, and truly were guaranteed to apply their minds to making the world a better place for everyone?
Naturally, you'd assume the questions are flawed because power corrupts either way. But corruption is a separate issue. Our democracies are not free from it either.
So obviously, option 2 is the better for all involved, even if people are too selfish or stupid to realize it. It would simply need to be overwatched, and if necessary, controlled.
>>7995123
lul
>>7995123
>since half the arguments around quantum mechanics are basically philosophical ones anyone who can follow the argument can have an opinion
I usually support people using their imaginations, but this is an unfortunate exception. I'm not a mathematician or a physicist either, but I have a friend who is.
So trust me, nothing about quantum mechanics (QM) is philosophical. It's counter-intuitive, very difficult to grasp in terms of common sense, and can seem all magical to common people. But contrary to popular belief, QM is actually very well understood, defined, and used in our daily lives. The standard model itself is pretty much the most successful model we have ever had, FAR more successful than the theory of general relativity (GR).
That's another thing. With regards to a theory of unification, common people believe GR is the default. That relativity makes sense, and QM is just the freaky shit we don't understand yet, which should be made to fit GR. For physicists it's the other way around. QM makes sense, that's something we use in fucking everything, and have a tremendous understanding of. GR makes no sense, and that's the oddball that will be bent to fit QM instead.
That something is difficult to understand, doesn't make it philosophical. And QM has been made to sound more popsci than anything before or since. You just portrayed what this topic is about though, no offense:
It's never a problem when people use their imaginations. But when they believe their imaginations are equal to, or even superior, to the findings of the scientists simply because they don't understand what it is the scientists do, that's when it becomes a problem.
This is classic Dunning-Kruger effect at work, right here, I'm sorry to say.
>>7998909
>nothing about quantum mechanics (QM) is philosophical
Jesus nigger you retarded.
>This is classic Dunning-Kruger effect at work, right here, I'm sorry to say.
You would be correct.
>>7998888
>patrick batman.jpes
>>7993821
The populace does that litteraly all the time
>I don't know anything about diplomacy/economics but here's my opinion on [insert party].
>>7998888
>1)propaganda
>2)they are good!
People act according to their interests. Companies would take advantage of it. The fewer people who can vote, the easier for companies to control the demographic group.
People won't let the government to steal their voting rights.
Radical nonviolent political changes are not possible. You can't put any example-argument.
All you can debate is hypothesis circlejerk or "paranoia".
>>7998888
I broadly agree with you but I can easily see how that system could be cheated.
As something less revolutionary and less difficult to implement, I would like that, during elections/referenda, people have to answer a couple of basic questions in order for their vote to be valid. Nothing particularly difficult, but you'd have to get it right.
It seems trivial, but you would be amazed how massively stupid people are, and how a simple measure like this could produce healthier outcomes. For instance,a few weeks ago, we had a referendum on an Ukraine-EU deal here in the Netherlands (the referendum was pushed by a shit-tier tabloid looking for self-publicity, but anyway). There were some no-voters who couldn't even put fucking Ukraine on a map, would put Poland instead of Germany. Fucking morons. Anecdotal evidence, of course, but some polling agencies actually tested the knowledge of voters as well as their voting intention, and, you guessed it, the least informed one were the most likely to vote no.
Maybe that question requirement would have changed something, maybe not, but at least when grossly ignorant people are prevented from voting, democracy could have some more legitimacy, and wouldn't be so easy to hijack by populists.
>>7998417
>>7995175
Saying somebody has audacity isnt an insult.
>>7995167
>implying the communist manifesto hasn't been translated into every major language
>implying marx was russian
>implying the communist manifesto wasn't originally written in German
Keep communism out of your dirty whore mouth. You know nothing.
>>7995079
Fucking hell, /sci/ will argue over any fucking stupid shit and try to sound intelligent doing so.
>>7999413
>>7999447
>>7997595
This is a really fucking stupid picture.
My god.
>>7998218
You don't really understand the concepts until you understand the math. That's why we use math. Otherwise everybody would just walk around using metaphor to solve problems. When you play with equations and get a little handle on them you actually start to understand what's happening. Otherwise you're just reading Plato.
>>7995085
>Why can't I have an opinion on an idea based almost entirely on mathematics when I don't know the mathematics that is the idea?
>>7999593
No. It has been my experience that the people who think they know the math are surprised when you say the conclusion out loud.
Just because an argument is consistent, doesn't mean it isn't bat shit crazy.
A lot of times the math says something is there when it is not.
And a lot of times you think the math is saying something, but when you put it into words, it is just another contradiction.
A bunch of Platonists in this thread who don't understand that the picture in your head doesn't create the world; you are just lucky when the picture in your head is close enough to the world to give you some peace of mind.
>>7995129
>I'm just not a math person
>0 is just "nothing"
>>8000399
>hurr the math is wrong, I can see beyond it because I don't know math
idiot
check'd
>I dont understand circuitry really but I read an issue of Technology Insider Magazine once so I have some background in the topic, and I think we should make electronics out of wax. Electronics is mostly just philosophy anyways
You are allowed to have opinions on QM without understanding it, but they are literally meaningless.
Its like a toddler having an opinion on investment strategies
>>7993821
this thread is so good
>>7997600
this right here proves why you should be at least somewhat educated to have an opinion on something
regardless of whether or not the person you were replying to was serious or not
>>7995085
You forgot your >
>>7993821
Do you know the math bro? Just wanna know
>>8000399
Buddy, what you're saying is along the lines of "People who think they know the maths usually don't the maths".
If you do enough problem sets, you will have an understanding tof the math that isn't even comparable to a hand wavey wordy explanation. You actually understand the problem.
This is what I mean by 'understanding the math'. Not looking at the equation and then describing it english, but actually getting a functional grasp on its outcomes.
>>8000465
This guy's right, but he's rude.
>>8000535
Brilliant.
>>7995364
>don't insult computer science. look at what you're sitting in front of.
Yeah, nah. I think I'll thank the electrical engineers for that.
As for this site, I'll thank the 15 year old who copy pasted the code onto a server. That's pretty much all computer science is
>>7995379
>The actual math and concept behind a computer is fucking complex as shit
>complex as shit
>discrete """"""""""math""""""""""
>complex as shit
>>7995375
>This is nothing more than the gripes of the typical student who got to the point in his studies where he falsely believes he is close to mastering his field, and therefore thinks he has the right to look down his nose at people who don't know as much.
this. you know that professors are secretly laughing at what they teach you in undergrad right? its all a massive oversimplification jut like popsci
>>7995409
but the irony is tat it is /sci/ which is at mount stupid. the guy who took a few introductory QM courses in college is the one most likely to aggressively shout down other opinions because "hes an expert" popsci fags just ask innocent questions
>>7998909
>nothing about quantum mechanics (QM) is philosophical
Kill yourself
t. Physics student
>>7997073
/sci/ thinks it's 1716 where they can be an autistic lone snowflake and still be the world's best scientist.
>>7998933
I take it you are not fond of democracy?
>>7998888
You're an idiot, whenever power is in the hands of the few they have always fucked over the little man. This is precisely why we now have universal suffrage; because the elite couldn't be trusted to act in the interests of the poor. This thread pretty much shows what a society run by /sci/ elites would be like for people are openly saying they would ignore the opinions and input of un-educated people and outright discriminate against minorities.
Right now despite being universal suffrage, the wealthy and big corporations have managed to take over the government and even /sci/ complains. Now they can justify it with /sci/s own theory saying that letting mere academics vote is stupid because what matters most is maximizing national profits not funding some obscure physics project. Everybody thinks their own views are correct and the most important therefore the best solution is to give everyone a say so that views are treated equally.
>>7998965
I hate this argument that if you can't put a country on a map you are an idiot/cannot have an opinion on the place. The world ran for millenia without maps, the Romans never had a good map of the British Isles yet still ran it effectively for 400 years. Furthermore many here talk about star systems such as Alpha Centauri and Vega. Can any of you place them on a star chart? Therefore your argument that EU citizens can't vote on Ukraine unless they know where it is is fucking retarded.
>>8001124
If the average joe doesn't even know where the country is, do you expect them to understand the problem behind the voting?
>>7993821
You seem pretty frustrated, boy.
>>8001352
I just explained that ancient empires effectively ran distant lands for centuries without having decent maps of the place what more proof do you need? As I said it's like saying you cannot talk about Mars because you are unable to point out exactly where it is in the sky.
>>7997469
Not him, but I didn't come to a cringe thread. I'm so ashamed of your stupidity for you right now it's not even funny anymore. Just stop, please.
>>7998924
>>8001090
I swear I'll never understand this hurrdurr troll mindset. Classic Dunning-Kruger alright, making your stupidity so blatantly obvious, and at the same time being completely oblivious to it. It's like you're on some potato level of IQ there, literally.
>>8001124
See usually I would agree. But basic geography isn't as much a measure of IQ as it is a measure of one's knowledge and activity in general knowledge, such as politics. If you are either too stupid, or too ignorant to know where your neighboring countries are on the map, then there's every reason to assume that you will also be too stupid and ignorant to have anything of value to add in a political vote.
>>8001122
>obvious BS
Yes yes, why do you chipmunks bother saying the same shit I already covered? I already said that power corrupts, I already said everything your wanton ranting did a day later, in the very same post you ranted at. Jesus.
As said, the corruption is a separate problem. The issue I posed was with the fact that modern day democracy needs to deal with issues far more complicated than when democracy was first instated. The question therefore is very simple:
Do you trust that around 50% of the people, including the retarded scum I mentioned earlier, can be trusted to know what's important for our planet, the survival of our species, and for peace, health and prosperity in the long term? Or do you believe that they will simply fuck things up? I believe the latter. Which means we need an alternative. We need a new system entirely, where the intelligent lead. But it needs a completely new kind of overwatch to minimize the chances of corruption.
And no, I'm not one of those who would lead. I'm simply smart enough to know that *many* people shouldn't be able to vote.
>>8001401
>Classic Dunning-Kruger alright
kek
>>7997042
>let's imagine scientists are just angry monkeys that throw dna around then say editing X gene is beneficial without additional supporting research
>>8001401
> Classic Dunning-Kruger
> I'm simply smart enough to know that *many* people shouldn't be able to vote.
>>8001401
>Not him, but I didn't come to a cringe thread. I'm so ashamed of your stupidity for you right now it's not even funny anymore. Just stop, please.
why on earth do you think your views matter? you're too stupid to present an argument and resort to name-calling so you should be ready to receive it in return.
don't be so dumb next time and you might get a better response.
>>7997600
Yes, but humans alter specific alleles etc.
These microsms are very delicate systems because minor changes can have huge unpredicted effects. Scientists don't just pump a bunch of random mutations into an organism a al evolution.
Also, I think this anon was referring to the ecosystem as a whole as the delicate system.
>>7995071
> 0.333 (3) = .999
> 0.333 = 1/3
> 1/3 (3) =3/3
> 3/3 = 1
>>7995359
>what does quantum mechanics really mean?
Actually, that's a good question to ask provided you understand what it is you are asking.
t. sometimes a chemist and currently a doer of analytical quantum mechanics
>>7998888
I would pick neither.
>>8001122
>despite being
I think you mean "because of"
>>8001401
>neighboring countries
Ukraine is hundreds of miles away from The Netherlands. I hope you are aware that it's mostly only autists that have a photographic memory of the globe. Most people whether lawyers or doctors or scientists can't place most countries on a map. Why? Because they don't care, it's irrelevant to them. Get of your fucking high horse thinking that your autistic memorization skills makes you a cut above others.
I don't get people like you, You spout nonsense about these right wing utopias that you dream up in your basement when the whole of history is littered with such schemes failing miserably. You say that everyone should have geographic knowledge so how about having some historical knowledge that restricted suffrage tumbled for a reason?
>>8001853
Yep the rich and powerful totally had nothing to do with government a hundred years ago, it was all lovely, equal and fair.
Jesus...
>>8001861
>>7998888
The majority of highly educated people I know are assholes. They're usually from a wealthy, entitled background, educated from youth and have a superiority complex.
Education is not a good metric for a person's quality of heart and mind. Neither is intelligence. There are a lot of qualities that make a man/woman.
Equating education
>>8001886
You may be right about education. But intelligence plays the most part on the quality of a person's mind. Everything comes with intelligence INCLUDING modesty
