"Computer Science" courses as taught in universities can be broken down into two categories:
1. Software development: things like OS, Networks, Databases, Distributed Systems, Software Engineering 101, Intro To Fizzbuzz etc.
2. Theory: Automata, algorithms, complexity, AI, ML, etc.
The former is as much of a science as Engineering. The latter is as much of a science as Mathematics.
And to each their own, personally I think Mathematics is a science, because even though it's a completely abstract construction ("it only exists in our minds"), it can be considered a non-physical property of the universe because our minds are a part of the universe.
>The former is as much of a science as Engineering. The latter is as much of a science as Mathematics.
Engineering isn't science at all, it's solving problems using science, only rarely do we contribute to science directly (an example from my field would be Oliver Heaviside), it's mostly developing tools and ways for scientists to do the science part.
As for 2 I'd say it's true if those are done correctly, stanford's ML for example is cringe worthy
>>7974893
>And to each their own, personally I think Mathematics is a science, because even though it's a completely abstract construction ("it only exists in our minds"), it can be considered a non-physical property of the universe because our minds are a part of the universe.
You heard it here first, """"quote"""" fags think mathematics is a science and are therefore confirmed cancer.
>>7975354
For example, prove that some theorem is not true. You can't. Therefore math is a science.
>>7975184
>stanford's ML for example is cringe worthy
how?
>>7975788
It's extremely simplified theory wise, it uses a lot of """ and skips a lot rigor, it basically gives you the minimum theory possible so you can use the tools decently.
>>7974893
>The former is as much of a science as Engineering
No it isn't, and you don't need to be an engineer to know this. Real engineering, as in civil or mechanical, is highly regulated. A lot of the times you need a license to even be able to lead a project. Software Engineering is obviously not regulated and you'd be allowed to lead a project without even having a degree in anything.
If you think doing fizzbuzz is the same as building a bridge then you are delusional. Even if you think that making an OS from scratch even compares then you are delusional.
Just accept that software engineering is not engineering. My employer calls me and every other programmer here 'Software developers' and that is the most accurate term, that is our title and that is what comes in our paycheck.
Software Engineering that is actual engineering comes when you are also touching the hardware, like in embedded systems, but then you'd be more of a computer engineer. The name software engineer is completely useless in describing what it is and it also makes retards like you think that you are engineers for learning a python library. Pathetic.
>The latter is as much of a science as Mathematics
But this is what enrages me, as I am a student of mathematics. You think that algorithms is mathematics? AIs? Machine Learning? Those are applications of mathematics, and to a certain degree they are trivial ones because even if machine learning is complex in theory, all you need to pick up is a book to know exactly what to do in every single situation.
CS is not engineering
CS is not math
The description of every CS University program should be as follows
>Are you a underachieving piece of literal human shit? Are you too stupid to learn a programming language and standard coding practices on your own? Are you too stupid to have even one semester focus on 'hard' mathematics beyond fucking calculus 2? Then come right ahead to computer science, perfect if you had a <2 GPA in high school!
>>7975824
CS students aren't even equipped properly to handle the math in the underlying theory of those tools, which I guess is why Stanford just explains it in words and "intuition"
>>7975846
Of course I mean at undergrad level (for the course and comment about the cs students)
>>7975835
CS has the same math requirements as every other non stem math degree.
>>7975835
>Just accept that software engineering is not engineering.
Software engineers dont typically program. They design complex software systems and have the developers bud it while they manage it.
Also, if you think an engineer builds bridges you are delusional.
>>7974893
Have you taken anything in category 1? Some of the most important work in parallel complexity has been performed as a part of work done in the topics of networks and distributed systems. Similarly, some important work in graph theory has been done to derive formal verification techniques for software engineering.
As an example, my current research is in distributed systems; however, the most important aspect of my work is the contribution of a new cryptographic protocol.
>>7975835
Would you like to explain how you would go about developing an operating system from scratch, given that it's so simple?
>>7976855
Oh, and please don't forget to include the important part: this is a quantum computer. We don't know how to properly perform error correction at the hardware or software levels, but since you've indicated that it's trivial to develop any general operating system from scratch, you seem to be the person for the job!
While you're at it, please address the issues of quantum concurrency and scheduling. We'd also like OS-level support for things like Shor's algorithm.
>>7976865
>maybe if i throw a bunch of made up shit and terms i've learned from wikipedia into my post they'll respect my field!!
Just get over your fucking insecurity, you CS brainlet
>>7975835
>algorithms not mathematics
Does it really frustrate you that much that people could possibly study computer science from an academic standpoint and actually enjoy it?
When I read your post, it just comes off as an absurd cry for attention. I mean, really, would you go to a Turing Award ceremony and say the content of this post verbatim? Chances are that you wouldn't, because some part of you realizes that, among the people in support of computing as a science, there are plenty of people who are significantly more successful, more knowledgeable, more capable than you are, even in the areas you study as "a student of mathematics."
If you can't admit that, you truly are deluded. It's like an ant yelling at a boot. Nobody hears or cares about what you're saying, and you're going to get stepped on anyway.
>>7976880
More like
>maybe if I bring up topics I've learned about during my CS education, they'll release how foolish they're being
My insecurity? Don't kid yourself. You're the one becoming defensive at the fact that I've iterated legitimate questions in this area of "non-science" that you seem to need to denigrate.
As for me, I enjoy computer science, and I'm comfortable enough with doing so that I find no need to denigrate other people.
Brainlet or not, at least I have the capacity to genuinely see value in legitimate work others have done.
>>7975846
they are. You take at least up to calculus 2 in CS, discrete maths, and linear algebra. Which is enough to approach Machine Learning by a rigorous mathematical standpoint
>>7976805
But that doesn't say much now does it?
>>7976808
Fair enough, but if you think that CS will turn you into a software engineer then you are delusional.
>>7976855
Either you misread me or are trying to misrepresent my point to earn yourself some 4chan gold or something. I never said that making an OS is trivial, I said that it is not comparable to real engineering.
>>7976888
I thought it would be obvious but I will say it. My criticism is obviously against freshman CS majors who think they know math and think they know engineering, or think they know anything at all instead of only knowing the surface of whatever they study.
Anyone who gets the Turing Award will likely be a PhD and thus will know real math or real engineering, depending on their specialization.
Also, daily reminder that many influencial computer scientists like Don Knuth and Djikstra are actually mathematicians by education and computer scientists only by trade.
>>7976907
Fuck. Correction. My criticism is not against freshmen, it is against CS bachelors, of all levels.
It really is the degree of
>Do you want to learn a lot of stuff but not really learn it to the point that you intuitively understand it? Then come right ahead.
>>7976907
>guy who mentioned Turing Award here
I think your post would be better addressed to the specific mindset you're referring to as opposed to the entire body of people interested in computer science. The problem with judging people by their area of study is that, 60 years ago when most Turing winners themselves were in school, the closest subject to what is now computer science (in an academic sense, not necessarily application software development) was mathematics.
Take Fran Allen, for example. She won the Turing award 10 years ago with only an MS (in mathematics). Her work, however, was by and large mostly impressive for the fact that she produced a seminal basis for systems in terms of implementation. She didn't even want to be a mathematician or a research-oriented computer scientist originally: she wanted to be a math schoolteacher.
Since we're anonymous, I'll take the opportunity to use myself as an example. I'm a computer science student. I've done it all during my education: the code-heavy practical work and the theoretical work. I enjoy both sides of it: I enjoy it so much that I'm going to study it in graduate school. As a point of reference, one of the competing offers I have right now is a fully funded offer for Princeton's PhD-track MS (only because I'm unsure of whether I want a PhD) program, where I'd have the opportunity to be mentored by a computer scientist--with a mathematics graduate degree--with a Turing award--who did work in graph theory--who specifically wants to advise graduate students in computer science.
When I was a freshman, I didn't think I knew everything. I knew that I either wanted to pursue mathematics or computer science, but I didn't choose computer science because it's the easy choice. I chose it specifically because I'm interested in computation and how it works. At least at my school, that's not covered by the mathematics department.
>>7975824
You should try the one that is taught on campus. Not the same class by a longshot...
>>7976805
This. In the UK at least, CS students need an A* in a level maths to study at the top unis, so they aren't exactly retards.
