Do insects have consciousness? Or what do they experience, if consciousness is not the proper word?
Insects don't experience anything, they just respond to stimuli. If I programmed a basic robot to look for food and run away from what I programmed it to be perceived as danger, would you ask "What does the robot experience?". It doesn't experience shit, it just receives inputs, processes those inputs and produces outputs in the form of actions. You're heavily personifying by thinking they have some kind of internal experience.
Its like a robot. It's brain is a little computer of preprogrammed actions to perform in response to certain stimuli. That's it. Their non-localized nervous system doesn't allow for any more than that.
>>7927981
Can you sum up how it works for dumb people? How did it evolve to be so perfect? And can't insects learn?
>>7927995
I did an experiment where we put a species of bug in two chambers, connected by a tunnel. One was dark and one was light. After a while, they had all ended up in the dark side. This is because when they detect light, they start walking around until it is dark again, where they stay. This is how they keep from being spotted by birds and things. They are wandering around with no real direction, only stopping when certain stimuli are achieved.
Lets say they eat some specific plant. They walk around until they chemically detect it, then the nervous system makes it begin eating what it is on.
They are pretty much really well designed robots, with a computer for a brain.
They evolved to be so perfect because as soon as there was predation there was no room for error. If your little bug is walking around in daylight, 90% chance of predation. If it sits in the sun for more than 10 minutes, it dries out. It's really aggressive natural selection that lets this evolve.
Most insects can't learn any new information, with the exception of bees who can remember directions and things like which flowers they have already landed on.
>>7928015
Yes, but in the case that a certain species of bug had to get smarter to adapt to its enviroment, it would just like any other animal
Okay square one, the neurons of an insect work exactly like wires. Also, there are several large clusters of neurons that are like circuits that can make signals which fire in certain patterns, like if you need to walk, you would need a long signal, then no signal.
Lets do a case study of the Pill bug, aka the roly poly. This was the light/movement bug from earlier. In the diagram affixed you can see exactly how it works. It starts by the eyes activating the walking.
>>7928062
here is the diagram
>>7928015
Can you explain how preprogrammed behaviors work neurologically? How did they evolve? I guess it could just take a really long time, and the hiding instinct for example could start out as something like "random mutation that made an amoeba swim in X direction in response to X stimuli". But I can't wrap my head around how a mutation can create a behavior. But I dint know shit so that's probably why.
>>7928069
Also I don't know if anyone can explain how such things work, especially to a sub layman, so sorry if the question is too much, if it even made sense.
>>7928065
>>7927975
So do we
We just have a lot more conditional statements in our programmkng than they do
Are you the same guy who posted about conciousness being intangible?
>>7928069
The diagram should explain how preprogrammed behaviors work. Although it is shitty
Preprogrammed responses were the entire basis for having a nervous system. The only purpose of a nervous system is so you can respond to a stimuli. How did the nervous system evolve? I personally have no idea. But as for new responses to stimuli, you need three things, a sensory organ, a circuit or group of neurons to amplify/make a patterned signal, and something to do what you need to happen (legs, muscles, ect.). Take note that all of these things are already present in organisms and don't require too much modification to do something different.
Lets say a roly poly comes out all retarded and has its sensors for sex pheromones connected to a walking ganglia connected to its ass muscles. This would make its ass shake if it detected a mate. Which might make the mate take notice of it and mate with them. There are bound to be some sort of useful mutations with time considering how simple the actual mechanism is.
One big factor in play is that an insect's nervous system is physically separated from itself. It is spread throughout the entire insect. In animals with brains, the entire thing works as one.
>>7927975
>they just respond to stimuli. If I programmed a basic robot to look for food and run away from what I programmed it to be perceived as danger, would you ask "What does the robot experience?".
so just like humans ?
>>7927947
Humans are also just complex machines operating according to various stimuli, provided by the environment and reinforced by memory. No one can actually prove anyone but themselves is conscious.
I think the best way to think about consciousness is this:
The world witnessing the behavior of an organism according to stimuli is the view outside of the organism, "consciousness" is how the world is witnessed from inside the organism.
Ants have a limited consciousness. We observe behavior, but we know they have eyes, what their antennae sense, so we know they are taking in stimuli and processing it. The ant's consciousness is that internal experience, the "thing" that is taking in the vision and sense of smell.
This is not to say an ant realizes it is conscious. An ant's consciousness is the equivalent of a robot. There is absolutely information being transmitted from the robot's eyes and there are decisions being made by the robot's brain, but the entity itself is not in any way aware of anything more than these senses. It doesn't operate with any thought, there's no reflection or consideration, it just does. Everything to an ant just happens.
>>7928127
More detailed responses though
>>7927975
How do you know this? Intuition is not a proof, the size is not a proof either. Sure, their nervous system is kind of simple but we don't understand the underlying key elements. Persons seem to have a ability to choose against the sensor information. Cats and dogs seem to hesitate sometimes too. Maybe there is something behind that has to choose, in other words consciousness.
It is not impossible for free will to be an illusion either. My point is that we can't know.
>>7928015
People prefer certain conditions over others. Majority of us would most likely choose 20 Celsius temperature over -20 Celsius. Sleep in dark and more light in daytime. While we might be robots too, this doesn't prove it.
I am not trying to prove anything with this quote bellow. I just got mildly interested and googled a little bit. Since, you guys may be interested too, here it is.
""""Having a brain the size of a pinhead does not necessarily make you less bright, say researchers.
Computer simulations show that consciousness could be generated in neural circuits tiny enough to fit into an insect's brain, according to the scientists at Queen Mary, University of London and Cambridge University."""
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1228661/Insects-consciousness-able-count-claim-experts.html
>>7927975
Insects of the same species can respond to the same stimulus in different ways.
>>7928801
Not the guy.
We can't remove all the variables. In other words combined effect of stimuli may differ. Maybe there is little more wind or slightly different temperature. Biological state of living system when entering into the situation is not likely to be the same either.
I try once more. Two complex biological system whose initial state differs will react differently when put into similar conditions.
>>7927947
define consciousness
>>7927975
the same could be said about humans .bunch of chemical shit going on in the brain that drives actions\reaction to stimuli .
>>7928842
I don't think too rigorous definition is needed but couldn't hurt to have something in order to have a meaningful conversation.
I must say that I hate people who just throw something like this in middle of conversation, without proposing anything themselves. It is not very helpful.
I always think awareness when I read consciousness. Aware of surroundings, not necessarily aware like recognizing itself on mirror. I guess there are different level of consciousnesses then.
Here are some definitions:
1: the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself
2: the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought
3: the normal state of being awake and able to understand what is happening around you
>>7928873
Do apples have flrvvlbht?
>define flrvvlbht
It's yrrjsxinb; dlpprbstx; frtbllngh.
You can feel as superior as you like towards those who say "define consciousness", while still missing the point that if you can't define it without resorting to equally undefined synonyms, the question remains meaningless and therefore cannot be satisfactorily answered.
>>7928902
Well, firstly I don't feel superior nor do I understand what it has to do with anything. It is kind of off topic. Argue with what I say, not what you assume I might feel.
Secondly everything can be questioned. Philosophers have figured this out ages ago. This is why they brought up the concept of pragmatism or practicality. We can relay on reasonable assumptions and we have to, in order to have a meaningful conversation.
I don't think this was supposed to be philosophical conversation (correct me if I'm wrong), so we take some things granted.
>while still missing the point that if you can't define it without resorting to equally undefined synonyms,
Which was why I said we don't need rigorous definition and we don't. We can have a meaningful conversation without breaking whole universe in pieces.
Can you define every word you just used, because I don't buy your logic before you define them. You also use the word consciousness. What do you mean by it? What are the boundaries of the satisfactory answer?
But fair enough. If you point was that we cant define consciousness in any meaningful way. Then thank you. You made your point. We can continue this conversation from here. Because conversation with you ended up to its logical endpoint already.
>>7928930
>correct me if i'm wrong
You are.
>>7927975
retard
>>7928977
I guess you got me there. It was little poorly thought. Of course this conversation has a philosophical side.
Thank goodness we have you who is such a contributing force on this conversation. Your conversational skills amaze me. You wise man, please continue to share your wisdom.
>>7928894
>Its the Frontal lobe that gives rise to consciousness.
I don't think we can be sure of that. Certainly, knock out frontal function in a human and you alter consciousness, but not all brains are designed like a human's. Research this week into why some birds can be as smart as mammals despite having a much smaller frontal volume suggests functions more diffused throughout the rest of the brain.
Yes they are aware. They are aware of their surroundings, their body, etc. They might not have meta-awareness levels like humans and some other animals, but they still have basic awareness.
while ( walkaroundaimlessly == 1 )
{ eat(); }
else { fucksomeoneturnedonthelights(); } return tocrackinwall;
>>7928112
>Lets say a roly poly comes out all retarded and has its sensors for sex pheromones connected to a walking ganglia connected to its ass muscles. This would make its ass shake if it detected a mate. Which might make the mate take notice of it and mate with them. There are bound to be some sort of useful mutations with time considering how simple the actual mechanism is.
Lel, but that's not the same as learning.
>>7929715
I was giving an example of how these mechanisms could evolve naturally
>>7929837
Oh. But how can a cockroach learn to ignore the wind when you blow repeatedly on it, for example.
>>7929866
I don't know enough about that
>>7929866
>>Lets say a roly poly comes out all retarded and has its sensors for sex pheromones connected to a walking ganglia connected to its ass muscles. This would make its ass shake if it detected a mate. Which might make the mate take notice of it and mate with them. There are bound to be some sort of useful mutations with time considering how simple the actual mechanism is.
Constant stimuli becomes static white noise for all organisms. I don't remember the specific mechanism, but it has to do with a build up of something in the receptor areas. Like it toughens up.
>you are now hearing tinnitus in the background
Ayy lmaos 4,000,000,000,000chan has a similar thread.
Do the hairless apes have consciousness? What do they experience? They just respond to stimuli and complete actions that satisfy their dopamine releases. Anyways, they are all just really well preprogrammed machines that will crawl around the solar system we planeted them on and then we will harvest them for vessels to inject our childrenayylmaos into.
