Is "transgender" a mental illness? I'm legitimately curious. I have no point of reference to align my views on transgendered people (or even gay people, but I guess that's a different topic).
What can science tell us about the LGBT phenomena?
go back to /lgbt/ with this bullshit faggot. stop advertising the concept of "transgenderism" like it's worth talking about it or something, especially on a science board.
>>7663112
If you're asking whether gender dysphoria is a thing then yes
Psychology is (in most cases) medicine at best and a pseudo-science at worst. Terms like "mental illness", "mental disorder" and "personality complex" are entirely unscientific.
>>>/lgbt/
sage, hide and report this thread
>>7663125
I'm literally not LGBT. I want to know what science can tell us about the phenomena so I can either dismiss it like you do or think twice about it.
>hearing voices in your head to shot JFK = mental illness
>hearing voices in your head to cut of genitals, mutilate body, and homosex = CELEBRATION
If transgenderism is nothing else, its delusional. These people believe they are something that they are not in reality. If we can't apply a similar train of thought (i am something I am not) to other circumstances, and come to the conclusion its "sane", than its not.
Homosexuals are also mentally defective. Not saying they should be persecuted, condemned, or anything like it, but its a mental disorder to go against the biological imperative.
>>7663112
INAH 3 is a protip
>>7663112
"Mental illness" is an extremely loaded, stigmatized term that really doesn't say much scientifically. The research says hormone replacement and reassignment surgery have a higher "success" rate than trying to cope with gender dysphoria (various depression metrics, incidence of suicide, etc.)
If you're asking about causes, these aren't well-known. Obviously genetic and environmental factors both contribute. Differences in gene expression have been suggested as a contributing factor. In the case of male homosexuality, incidence rate increases with the number of male children that previously came from the same womb, suggesting an "immune response" of sorts
Questions of the type "is it normal" don't have real answers because they don't really ask anything (scientifically) in the first place.
>>7663217
Doesn't a delusion require you to believe something that isn't true? Being uncomfortable with your body isn't exactly a delusion.
>>7663229
Yes it is, you obviously lack knowledge on science.
>>7663217
It would be a mental illness if they actually had sex, trying to procreate and not simply have fun. Not everything we do is to serve a survivalist purpose anon. We do things simply because we enjoy them. It's as simple as that.
>>7663256
tell me which scientific branch studies gays, lesbians and transgenders you fucking retard.
>>7663264
Medical psychology
>>7663266
The name itself tells you it's not science.
I guess it's not surprising that so few people know what "science" actually means.
>>7663217
>hearing voices in your head
That's schizophrenia
>cut of genitals, mutilate body, and homosex = CELEBRATION
"mutilation" is required to correct the error. Correcting errors is worth of celebration.
>>7663315
>psychology
>experiments
I want /pol/ to LEAVE /sci/
RIGHT NOW!
>>7663315
Experiments that don't follow the scientific method and can't be replicated.
wow
>>7663321
With transgender people at least, they've done brain scan studies. Maybe they aren't as well controlled or conclusive as experiments in physics or chemistry, but they are experiments nonetheless.
>>7663327
pol ?
>>7663346
That's neuroscience, which is a biological science.
In regards to the OP, yes they do have a mental disorder. Given the unscientific nature of Psychology, however, it is not regarded as such because Psychology is heavily influenced by contemporary political trends.
>According to DSM-IV, a mental disorder is a psychological syndrome or pattern, which occurs in an individual, and causes distress via a painful symptom or disability, or increases the risk of death, pain, or disability
Transgenders have a higher risk of suicide and routinely mutilate themselves either via surgery or through the consumption of hormones. They are objectively mentally ill and need treatment rather than enabling.
>>7663375
>Transgenders have a higher risk of suicide
On its own, an elevated risk of suicide is not grounds for classifying something as mental illness.
>routinely mutilate themselves either via surgery or through the consumption of hormones
Those are not things they just go out and do on their own, they're part of the standard treatment for their mental disorder. In some places they do get hormones without a prescription, but that's not really standard, and surgery is something that they definitely won't get without a prescription.
>They are objectively mentally ill and need treatment rather than enabling.
This is true, however generally speaking the objectively best treatment currently available is itself something that people often claim is "enabling". That is why there is controversy over it.
/sci/ is so retarded, transgenderism isn't about thinking they are a woman its about being uncomfortable with being a man. Like if you're born with ginger hair and you hate it so you dye it. You can go around saying you're blonde, no-one will care but you never thought you were blonde you just wanted to be one/ felt you were meant to be one/whatever
>>7663459
You don't get to demand people to call you whatever you're not. If you're a man, people will call you man. I won't call you spiderman just because you do cosplay.
Getting buttmad when people call you what you really are is clinical stupidity.
>>7663468
>If you appear to be a man, people will call you man.
FTFY. People don't have some magical x-ray vision that tells them what sex someone is, they have to go by external cues.
![150601163049-bruce-caitlyn-jenner-vanity-fair-tease-large-169[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/9JworMY.jpg "150601163049-bruce-caitlyn-jenner-vanity-fair-tease-large-169[1].jpg")
>>7663481
So trying so hard to fake your sex to trick people into thinking you're someone else is what comforts you ? Is this the extent of your game ? It's nothing more than attention whoring and trying to be different in a literal sense. But this is the new "emo" I guess.
Not to mention you don't need xray vision to tell the majority of transgenders. They turn into freaks trying to look like not-man.
>>7663375
Due to the poor understanding of the brain, most mental illnesses are incurable and difficult to even treat without enormous amounts of trial and error. It's easier to just let relatively harmless people just wander around untreated until there's a cure.
>Be really good at graphic design
>get to design an event poster for our student administration
>board is very gender sensitive
>take extra care to even out numbers of women and men
>get asked where the other genders are
mrw
>>7663495
How many people were there in the group? Genders other than male and female are pretty uncommon, you wouldn't expect to find one in a group unless it was particularly large.
>>7663495 again
FYI it was only facial silhouttes…
>>7663495
Tell them to learn the difference between gender and sex and you classified them based on peoples sexes.
>>7663498
8 faces. 4 male 4 female
>>7663495
>missed opportunity to ask board how to properly represent futas in a sfw setting.
Ya done fucked up.
>>7663490
>So trying so hard to fake your sex to trick people into thinking you're someone else is what comforts you ? Is this the extent of your game ? It's nothing more than attention whoring and trying to be different in a literal sense. But this is the new "emo" I guess.
It's not really done to get attention from other people, it's more because they're uncomfortable with their own bodies. Like a very mild form of it might be feeling very uncomfortable with having facial hair, and so they shave regularly or may take more drastic measures to reduce facial hair growth. Full gender transition is just a more extreme version of that.
>Not to mention you don't need xray vision to tell the majority of transgenders. They turn into freaks trying to look like not-man.
True, but it's really hard to get any meaningful impression of how many of them "pass" since by definition that means they're visually indistinguishable from any other woman.
>>7663495
Genders are ineffective and they turned into a soup of autism already. Anything can be a gender. The only biological indicator is sex, which is not up to peoples opinions.
Go with that.
>>7663517
Being uncomfortable doesn't turn you into the opposite gender anon. Neither does hormone therapy. There are men who are born with lot less testosterone and a lot more estrogen, but they are still inevitably men, and will remain that way.
You can try to disguise yourself and try to appear like someone else which is exactly the thought process of emos or edgy teens or people who get tattoos just to feel unique, but it doesn't change facts. You will still have XX or XY chromosomes in your core.
>>7663534
>Being uncomfortable doesn't turn you into the opposite gender anon. Neither does hormone therapy. There are men who are born with lot less testosterone and a lot more estrogen, but they are still inevitably men, and will remain that way.
That's obvious, but the whole point is to change your body's traits to something you're more comfortable with.
>>7663540
There's not yet a way to change your genetics.
>>7663554
Right, but that's not the point in any case. I mean, it would be nice if you could, but no one's claiming that gender transition does change your genetics.
>>7663559
If it doesn't change your genetics, you're not changing shit.
>>7663559
I get what you're saying, but you have to understand it's nothing more than the emos attempt to feel unique. Feeling like some other gender and trying too hard to appear like one relies on different things. Just like how emos are uncomfortable with the way they feel, or the way people see them, they change their appereance. And they make sure everyone sees it in the most obvious way possible. It's a desperate attemp to get confirmation from the society that they are "unique".
>>7663112
I think it stem from lacking self awareness and philosophical bankruptcy. It's also due to existing in a very, very sickly.
This surgical sex change deal shouldn't be condoned. It shouldn't be celebrated, applauded, or seen as at all positive. It's self mutilation, and people are only drawn to it via its place in popular culture and awareness. At the same time, they shouldn't be ostracized or incur any negative treatment for their choices.
Hospitals should definitely take another look at policy. I doubt "transitioning" results in any meaningful improvement in psychological health. If anything it's probably worse.
>>7663566
They're changing their appearance, hormone levels in the body (which has a direct effect on dysphoria), etc. If it didn't change anything, it wouldn't be done.
>>7663580
>I think it stem from lacking self awareness and philosophical bankruptcy. It's also due to existing in a very, very sickly.
Not sure what happened to that sentence...
sickly culture*.
>>7663581
Some people get permanent make-up tattoos. It doesn't change anything either. Just because something is a thing people do doesn't validate it scientifically. Taking drugs for hormones doesn't change gender. Neither does non-genetic physical alteration.
>>7663598
>Taking drugs for hormones doesn't change gender.
No, but it does help minimize the effects of gender dysphoria, which is really the whole point.
>>7663604
>take a hormone pill the rest of your damn life.
That's a big pharma answer. The correct answer is to get over it and adapt to the real world situation that your genetics has presented you.
>>7663611
>That's a big pharma answer
No, it's not. There isn't really that much money to be made off of hormone treatments.
>The correct answer is to get over it and adapt to the real world situation that your genetics has presented you.
So people should just "suck it up" and not seek treatment for their medical condition?
>>7663112
>Is "transgender" a mental illness?
its a mental derangement just like being a psychopath or gay.
but there is nothing to say you couldn't be driven to it rather than born with it if you had a fucked up childhood. like most psycopaths/gays.
>>7663624
>medical condition
It's incurable and not treatable because it is genetic. Hormones and physical alteration does not treat gender. If we had the science to deal with this, sure. But we don't. You can never be a woman if you were born a man. No amount of hormones or mutilation will give you the ability to bear children that is unique to the female gender. The only way forward is to just deal with it and/or contribute to the efforts to develop ways of manipulating genetics.
>>7663628
citation needed lol
gays seem to make up a pretty well set % of the population of a ton of species of animals
maybe sociopaths are genetic but psychopaths are as you mentioned made ( mostly )
btw this thread is shit where are the mods?
there's 1-2 people who sound like they have a basic scientific background, a couple sjws who take DSM classifications are denominations of disease, and rednecks....
>>7663657
You're missing the point. Hormones don't make you the opposite gender, but because the brain "thinks" it's the opposite gender, it works better with the opposite gender's hormones.
And the current theory is that it's not genetic, but influenced by hormone levels in the womb affecting early development. After that point however the affected area of the brain is very resistant to change, so there's no way to actually "fix" it short of drastic brain surgery.
>>7663658
what are you talking about?
wheelchair users make up a good % of our population, so do fatties, are they 'normal'? no they are ill
man is born with man brain and man penis
woman is born with woman brain and foofoo
man born with woman brain is a mistake.
i'm not saying kill them or anything, treat them like humans you know but why can't we say they are mentally fucked?
if you are a man with a mans body but think you are a woman or should be then thats a mistake. its a fuckup.
otherwise they wouldn't need reassignment surgery would they?
whats more likely the brain is fucked or every other muscle/penis/nipples/hips/etc in the body fucked up?
gays also, being gays isn't what we evolved to do. you cant argue animals or greeks because yeah they bum eachother but they still procreate . gay guys are disgusted by a womans foofoo.
and i have never seen an animal prance about in crochless chaps.
why do peiple think i'm trying to insult i'm just stating the fact doesn't mean i'm being derogotary
>>7663664
that's not true, there's no evidence of that
>psuedocientific bullsht
>>7663670
>fatties and wheelchairs
>isn't what we evolved to do
shut the fuck up ingrate no one wants to read the drivel you call an opinion
protip: evolution doesn't dictate function or form
>derogatory
yeah they may be mentally ill, but not for any of the bullshit you mention, its more like when you give them the gender they supposedly thought they were they still experience the dysphoric feelings, or ameliorate their suicide rates
in any case since there's never been a formal clinical definition, surrogate endpoint, or measureable characteristic of mental illness it isn't a disease.
>>7663112
mental illnesses are defined by those subset of issues which cause distress to the individual or society.
Since society has demonstrated it's mostly capable of dealing with transgendered individuals, it's not a mental illness.
>>7663702
yeah this shitpost really adds to my argument that mental illness isn't even a disease.
we have nothing close to a 'model' of the 'normal' mind
>>7663678
There is evidence, but I suspect you'll just ignore it "because it's written by SJWs" or some other meme argument.
>>7663714
Not that anon, but I'd like to see what you're calling evidence.
To me it all just looks like the excuses people dream up in place of a basic understanding of their own psychology.
>>7663658
homosexuality is pretty much ubiquitous among animals in nature..... human fatties, cripples, sick, etc are terrible counter argument as they are enabled by modern society and would never have survived the hunter-gatherer life...
nature has selected for homosex multiple times over and over, in the cut-throat world of actual ecosystems.
BUT, that being said, transgender issues are completely seperate and different. it is indeed a mental disorder. they should be seeking psychological care, NOT enabled/encouraged to live out their disorder.
>>7663732
There really isn't much "psychological care" can do on its own for transgender people, except for very mild cases. And it's really hard to test for transgenderism in animals given our limited ability to communicate with them.
>>7663734
I don't think you could derive any of that from a brain scan. That's not what brain scans are good for studying, barring highly specialized cases like reconstructing visual data via fMRI after learning how that particular brain responded to visual stimuli.
I guess provide sources though, either way. Scans like this are good for misconstruing ambiguous findings.
>>7663736
derp. meant to respond to >>7663670
my point is simply that homosexuality (really bisexuality) serves a purpose, it is an evolutionary advantage. the idea of testing animals for what sex they identify as is laughable. you CAN test for behavior, and many animals of differing sexes behave in ways that defy gender, but all of these behaviors go back to being an advantage to the genes of the species. the desire to mutilate yourself to the extent that you are no longer contributing to the gene pool, is absolutely not advantageous
>>7663714
>literally no link to citation
this is why no one cares about your opinion
>>7663732
I'm sorry did you just come up with a lot of trite bullshit that supports my argument?
>mental disorder
yeah maybe, or maybe they are late onset exposure to 'x' and have predisposition 'y'
its not clean.
>>7663734
>muh brain scans
that means nothing you fucking thunderchode, did you read my post? what is a normal mind? i bet ur stupid little fmri studies have n < 20 for any arm
basically they're trash, founded on thin air, proclaiming bold faced lies.
>>7663749
ya we agree, i was saying wheelchair, etc response was weak shit though. that is all.
>>7663732
Name a single sexually reproducing species other than humans where individuals exist solely as homosexuals.
Homosexuality is a lifestyle brought about by decadence. It only exists in times of plenty, like obesity.
>>7663753
gud, tyty
your use of evolutionary advantage is specious at best, I suggest you take a cursory glance at the population genetic repercussions of neutral mutation theory
its like, everyone on the internet thinks they understand a subject after reading 2-10 articles
if you cared you'd keep reading
>>7663758
ahhh like every bonding mammal?
if you tried to construe homosexuality as non-characteristic by comparing lifelong partnership to sexual coupling you may be able to eek out some ground
right now all i hear is muh sexuality is da right one cause babie
what i mean is you're too much of a pleb to understand what an argument for these sorts of things are let along comment on them.
>>7663762
what was specious specifically? i guess i always view things in more of a "selfish gene" kind of way...
any good reading you would recommend specifically?
>>7663785
>specious
specifically your idea is posited on the grounds that negative selection is the meter and guide of evolution
yeah dawkins work ideas were published in a book for a reason and they are near 40 years old now
the wiki on neutral mutation is more than enough but i like kimura's writing the best
the writing in the field may be enough for you to understand all the basics and the few papers i just skimmed all agree with the tenant that population is proportionate to variation (re; neutral mutation theory)
yeah looked at a few reviews and they are too esoteric look at the founding papers to understand the ideas, and if you want to read further check out an island method
>>7663800
thx for info
should i start with kimura's 1983 publication The Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution? or would any of his earlier papers or books be a prereq here?
>>7663844
yah
don't go earlier
looks like coalescent methodology has improved the models for population genetics
and i'm too stupid to learn it tonight, but coalescent comp-sci methodology might be good further reading
or island comparison method, which definitely makes sense to me
>>7663844
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/neutral-theory-the-null-hypothesis-of-molecular-839
Is a pretty good review of the subject from wiki you really don't need to read the original papers including Kimura's if you're willing to do a lot of backpeddling
>>7663664
>because the brain "thinks" it's the opposite gender.
Brains don't work that way at all. Throwing hormones at it exasperates the problem by allowing the patient to pretend they're something they're very clearly not. When genetic therapy develops practical applications for gender reassignment, previous/ongoing hormone "therapy" could dramatically impede development of the new phenotype.
In short, if you ever want to be a woman in the future and you weren't born that way, you're screwing yourself by taking hormones and getting surgeries.
>mental illness
>noun
>any of various disorders in which a person's thoughts, emotions, or behavior are so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people
1. are transgendered people always responsible for their own emotional or behavior trouble? does society play a role in creating these problems
if yes, then it's not necessarily a mental disorder because the emotional trouble is caused by the way that societry treats them (see: bullying, racism ect.)
if no, then it's a mental disorder and probably should be treated
what are your opinions on this
>>7663217
what you're saying there is that hearing voices = mental illness
pretty sure transgendered people don't LITERALLY hear voices
also that flawed logic can be applied to anything
>having urges to murder innocent people for no reason = mental illness
>having urges to have sex with someone of the opposite sex = CELEBRATION
>>7663240
>"Mental illness" is an extremely loaded, stigmatized term that really doesn't say much scientifically.
this anon is on the right track
you can pull out the EXACT definition of mental illness and categorize something as one, but then change it again to fit your own criteria, saying mental illnesses are bad
>>7663290
To some killing JFK was a cause for celebration too
In some nations women are circumsized to "correct errors"
Fuck you anon u sjw shitlord
>>7663889
When that kind of urges turn into rape his argument is totally valid.
He's mostly saying you're having an urge that is weird and fucking unnatural, like not liking your own genitals and wanting to cut it off or grow a pair. You're the one taking it too far.
>>7663580
>/sci/
>/science/
>having opinions that are the exact opposite of empirical evidence.
>>7663902
>In some nations women are circumsized to "correct errors"
People seem to forget nonconsensual genital cutting is commonly imposed on both sexes.
>>7663913
Such as?
Most of the longterm follow-up studies I've read, have noted little positive change after surgery.
>>7663241
They're deluded from reality. They earnestly believe they are women, in a man's body. Its different from being overweight and uncomfortable with it, and thus losing weight. Its more like an overweight person looking in a mirror and earnestly believing that they're skinny.
One is being uncomfortable with reality, the other is disregarding it entirely.
>>7663290
The error is the mind, not the body. We're not talking about someone born without limbs, we're talking about someone with a fully functioning, healthy body, and an unhealthy mind. Correcting the mind would be worth of celebration.
I genuinely don't understand how we, as a society, can look at someone clearly detached from reality and say, you know what, we're going to tragically degrade your body to match your mind. The mind is the part at fault, not the other hundreds of parts on the body.
Clearly if the body is objectively healthy, and there is still something wrong, its the mind.
We wouldn't pump addicts full of heroin because they're uncomfortable with being sober, we treat them, help them, and treat it like a mental disease or disorder.
If there's people that mutilate their limbs because they feel they don't belong to them and they have a problem, the same can be said about trans.
>>7663876
HRT affects structural changes in the brain so afawk your argument is invalid from a structuralist view
>>7663290
i don't see anyone celebrating the times redactions shitlord
>>7663893
>mental illness
the whole point is there is no meaningful consensus on what one is
>>7663920
yeah i agree
in fact the mayo clinic stopped performing perfoming gender reassignment citing the lack of benefit to their clinical outcomes ( re suicide )
>>7663944
>we are going to tragically degrade your body
you are an idealogical purist and you have no say in a modern society
your argument is founded on 'health' of which you understand little
>>7663975
Its not health, its the detachment from reality. Reality is that someone has a sex, and that transgenderds they believe their sex is wrong. And so they seek to cut it off, or "correct" it.
Don't get me wrong, I don't care what those people do, and personally I like fucking chicks with dicks, but I think theres a screw loose. They should be helped, not obliged, same as addicts or schizophrenics or depressed people.
>>7663112
I transitioned MtF in 2007, and haven't regretted it. My brain on Estrogen is like moving from black and white to technicolor.
>>7663987
eh, i don't really know what to say, but from your standpoint it sounds like they're trying to seek comfort, which isn't a bad thing
how can you help people like that anyways? its not like there's a great track record in mental health initiatives
>>7663995
i'm literally the only person addressing evidence
you've added: dey have mentalillneses and need dahelp but i'll fuck them and leave them proving to them that no one would want a relationship with a gender intbetween
>>7663264
Biology (genetics specifically, as well as epigenetics), also neurology.
>>7663611
>The correct answer is
There is no correct answer, it's up to everyone to decide what to do with their own bodies, not you. Lastly if a person works hard enough and actually looks like the opposite sex then he/she might be recognized as such, if not then get shreked.
why is this thread on /sci/?
if a person born male feels female, wants to dress as a female, be treated as a female, why is that necessarily mental illness? people have all kinds of interests. 'female' is a culturally subjective idea. some men are naturally inclined to that role, as opposed to its opposite.
my issue is we live in a time where that's socially unacceptable, so these people are driven to depression and other kinds of mental illness. there's no ethical or pragmatic reason for this, it's just our traditions.
this really isn't a /sci/ thread, it's a /pol/ thread, but I understand how this couldn't be a constructive talk on /pol/.
still, to the anti--trans (for want of a better term), why are you against transgenderism? why not treat people the way they want to be treated? are you so focused on their genitalia and your chances of banging them? why not, not, and still treat them with respect?
as far as science goes, transgenderism is a social phenomenon and is difficult to studdy scientifically, due to a lot of the bigger inherent philosophical issues with the scienbtific method. it's deeply humanist becaust of the fat that all science in contributed to by humans. it means we all share the same flaws to varying degrees, so we really have a hard time recognizing the scope of our ability to percieve what is 'objective'.
with gender roles, the 'objective' meaning is far too abstract for anyone to define. clearly some men want to be pretty and cute and we should encourage them to convince us they are. stop putting them down for trying.
the sad part of all of this, no one ever talks about FtM trans. all of this also applies to them, but the objections are always to the MtFs just read of this thread for reassurance.
>>7663670
We didn't "evolve" to do anything you dumbfuck. Trannies are mentally ill because they have a maladaptive deviation that causes psychological harm. Gays don't have such thing.
Still having a maladaptive deviation shouldn't be considered something derogatory. It's not an automatic answer of how much a person is worth.
>>7663139
Mfw schizophrenia doesn't exist wtf?
>>7663758
>homosexuality is a lifestyle
The definition of homosexuality is attraction to the same sex. Whatever else you think of is not homosexuality.
>>7664038
You didn't properly read what they said. If anything your response is evidence of how terms like "mental illness" really affect people's thought. No one said anything about "not existing".
The cluster of symptoms we associate with "schizophrenia" do exist, and can be tied to a certain set of mechanical changes. Whether it's an illness or not depends entirely the individual. If you can point to certain vague behavioral traits that don't have clear negative impact on the individual or those around them, and say "mentally ill!", it's a problem.
>>7664028
It's more about the unusual grey area it creates which is hard to deal with when it comes to situations like bathrooms, locker rooms, and social situations. Locker rooms are separated into boys and girls, where do you put the trans people? If it's a boy who thinks they're a girl, but doesn't want to change their body, what happens then? Also, there is a huge problem of political correctness and sensitivity to what trans people want to be called. More often than not, one will get offended if you call them the wrong gender, and at the extreme end of the spectrum we have trans-species people who think that they're animals, and get furious if you call them anything other than a squirrel-robot-kanye-kin, creating even more social chaos, including the impossibility of creating laws for all these trans gender and trans species to live comfortably. It's a cluster fuck of claims to what makes someone feel comfortable, and to what allows them to feel safe. Not only that, but everyone wants society to cater to them, when the very nature of humans opposes this type of behavior because it's detrimental to society as a whole. If you have a genetic issue where you have two x and one y chromosome, I could see why you would feel trapped. But someone like Bruce Jenner can't just up and say "I'm a woman", after being mentally and physically a man his whole life. According to genetics he's a man, but something must have happened mentally that caused him to change. Therefore it should be considered a disorder, and tasted as such, just as depression, schizophrenia, and other mental illnesses are getting attention for being completely treatable.
>>7664028
>'female' is a culturally subjective idea
nice try, i think you almost made a few people take the b8
>>7664050
what's the problem with that mtf using a male stall because that is his sex? is it that traumatic for them?
>>7664050
it's really simple. treat people with respect. personally ii don't treat a men or women very differently, except for women i'm attracted to. transgendered people don't expect you to be attracted to them, so just treat them like human beings. I've never met or heard of a 'trans-species' person, so I don't know how they want to be treated, but to be respectful, i'd do what i could to make them feel well treated. it's really not a difficult concept.
i truly don't understand why our society has difficulty making transgendered peopel feel welcome. if their 'condition' doesn't make them unhappy and does hurt anyone, why should we try to 'fix' it? what are we even fixing?
>>7664051
what it means to be a woman is a culturally subjective ideas. every culture expects women to act a certain way, and they vary widely. there might be things in common between them all, but it' still subjective from a society point of view. not even b8in.
>>7664028
>this really isn't a /sci/ thread, it's a /pol/ thread
It actually is a /sci/ thread as many of these deeply disturbed individuals try to abuse science for their political and social beliefs.
>female' is a culturally subjective idea
Case-in-point, a female human is an individual whose only sex chromosomes are X chromosomes. This could be X, XX, XXX, and so on. It is not subjective anymore than being a Homo sapien is subjective. Go back to >>>/lgbt/, please.
The fact that your entire post was written in lower case suggests this is not your usual board. My guess is this thread got brought up on /lgbt/ or /soc/ or similar containment boards.
>>7664075
>It actually is a /sci/ thread as many of these deeply disturbed individuals try to abuse science for their political and social beliefs.
More like they think because they scored high on an IQ test and study physics their opinions on psychology, medicine and other unrelated stuff mean anything.
>>7664075
no i'm just stoned and i ignore shift when i'm stoned deal w/it.
anyway, i was talking about societies' gender roles. when you're presented with a person, you treat them differently depending on whether they're a man or woman. unless you're ultramax progressive, we all do this, it's what it means for us to have a concept of gender. assuming of course, this isn't all about sex (which I'm pretty sure it actually is).
anyway assuming this isn't all about sex (and i meaning banging penus in vajeena hubba hubba times) we are only debating the fact that some poeple want to act like the character the is not the one they were dealt t birth due to their genitalia. you know, some humans with penises want to stay at home and be supportive and cry a lot about stupid shit and work hard to earn their partner's dedication. some humans with vags want to be hard and stern and self0directed and driven so fucking hard they could carry some baggage thats how fucking awesome they are. you think our traditional culture grants that to everyone equally? of course it doesn't.
transgenderism is the phenomenon that makes men want the role women are given, and vice versa. it is not a fight against biology. it's a current state of affairs. in the hopefully near fututre, 'transgenderism' won't be a thing. but this will only happen when we stop assigning genres certain roles. in our traditional society.
>>7664091
hit a nerve, eh?
>>7664103
you're not going to outshitpost me
>>7664103
Reminds me of when I tried to dig a plantar's wart out of my foot with a knife.
>>7664064
"Knowing how to treat them" isn't a problem for me or anyone with a brain, but harboring doubts about the self-identity of your friends is dishonest and harmful.
>Hey anon, are you marching with us tomorrow?
>Well Crystal, ya see, I don't see a reason to believe in the mystical gender theories you've made into your whole life, so I'll pass.
So you're advice doesn't even serve it's purpose (unless I become a sociopath and lie my ass off), and it certainly doesn't make it clear what being trans really is or the mechanism behind it.
>>7664123
they don't have doubts. ask any transgendered person, they really aren't like anyone else. they know who they are, and they've realized its closest to the other sex's gender role, and they are happier people being approached that way. they aren't the ones with doubt. everyone know who they are. it just takes more time for some people, because really, consider the current ramifications of thinking about eh idea that you'd be happier being treated as the other gender.
it's all a matter of mental health, and everyone should work to the better of each other's mental health.
this is probably a rare statement on le 4chns, lel.
>>7664131
No, I'M the one with doubts about THEIR identity. I see no reason to believe in their version of gender; it's pointless. I'll dance around all the topics I need to, follow the Golden Rule, etc., but if they ask me how I feel about their life choices I'll respect them enough not to lie to them.
So please give me a compelling reason to believe in gender dysmorphia.
>>7664155
i don't know what you mean by 'believe in gender dysphoria', you should respect it, insofar as those people who have it will work to present themselves the way that they want to be treated. i don't know what gender means to you, but cal a man who is obviously trying to appear as a woman 'she'. that's all this 'SJW shit' is about.
>>7664112
that didn't follow as an annecdote, i'm not gone and you can simply destroy or remove me because you don't like my opinion or the way I type
xD
>>7664131
I've listened to multiple trans-gender'd 'outings' and many of them were done outside of this absurd apologetic society, and they faced systemic disabuse by health care workers of their ideas. They met 'their true selves' through a lot of pain and hardship, although they had had their doubts through the years, and just as I imagine accepting your inherent gayness is, must at least be troubling - self actualization almost always is initially.
>>7664173
I don't respect religious ideas, but i won't treat religious people disrespectfully simply because of one of their opinions. I'm not that anon but I certainly don't have to respect all ideologies just because they exist.
>>7663240
>>7663893
You could define "normal" as anything with a purpose from an evolutionary perspective.
There are some arguments as to why a homosexual individual can increase the chance of propagating your genes espcially if you factor in the more male children = increasingly high chance of one becoming gay. A male individual that produces resources but doesn't reproduce is a great asset.
Transgenderism on the other hand seems to serve no such purpose and is in my opinion just a "fuckup" like a hole in your heart would be.
>>7664028
>'female' is a culturally subjective
NO it is fucking not. Female behavioral traits are very, very similar among all humans on earth apart from maybe a few very fringe tribal exceptions. Let alone the purely physiological differences.
Gender and gender roles are not a "social construct" that emerged out of a vacuum. Please, kill yourself.
10/10 would personally beat the shit out of you for being that retarded.
>>7664207
we exist in a society where evolutionary benefit doesn't really matter anymore
>>7664224
Which I see as a bad thing. I'm interested in the furtherance of the human race and constructing a society where traits such as stupidity and weakness are rewarded doesn't achieve that.
What I think is important is to teach people that gender dysphoria is not a desirable thing to have. We shouldn't shit on these people but we should also not hail it to the point where perfectly neurotypical individuals start to think that a solution to their problems in life is to pretend that they're a different gender.
I would totally switch from being a man.
However i'd prefer switching to a cyborg body instead of chopping my dick straight off.
>>7664235
Get to work /sci/
>>7664234
those two categories will always overlap
>>7664275
Which is a shame. I have nothing against people with legit gender identitiy issues but their space is being invaded by attention whores and people spewing pseudo science which ultimately leads to mure suffering for them.
>>7663868
awesome. ty anon
>>7664235
Yeah this. If the procedure was actually perfect I'd want to be a women.
Just think of how much studying I could do on maternity leave.
>>7664407
yeah definitely read coalescent theory too its not that complicated of a model
>>7664307
i don't think so i see those problems as being very much a part of society, much like scamming cheating stealing
having people in the wrong positions for their nature, senescence, nepotism etc
to be honest this transthing sounds more like an inconvenience for a good number of people, as they are forced to live a lie..
certainly not a good thing, but its not really rare these days
>>7663139
>Terms like "mental illness", "mental disorder" and "personality complex" are entirely unscientific.
so are "love", "trust", "justice", "mercy", and all the things that actually matter.
>>7663315
What universal laws have they established via experiment to describe behavior? What numerical variables can we modulate with regard to these experiments to achieve a specific outcome within the boundaries of its expected probability? Psychology is not science.
>>7663139
Transfag detected.
>>7664214
>social construct that emerged out of a vacuum
You might want to familiarize yourself with terms before you use them
>>7665886
i think personality disorder definitely makes sense especially in the context of behavioural therapy
they are patterns of thoughts and habits of action ( dismissal etc ) that need to be altered to better function
>>7665773
> Laws to describe ____
> Laws to describe
> Laws describe
You tried.
>>7663112
>Is "transgender" a mental illness?
Yes because I don't like it.
>>7663112
Regardless of what transgenderism "is", anyone who identifies as one should promptly be exterminated.
>>7666902
Most trans people don't identify AS trans. They usually identify just as men or women.
>>7663112
so do transgenders have both a working penis and working vagina ?
i was thinking about what makes people sexually abnormal yesterday
....
maybe during puberty a transgender person spends time noticing how the opposite sex gets attention or love from their sex. they decide that the opposite sex gets more attention from its same sex, so the kind of attention they choose to give is that of the opposite sex.
homosexuals notice the same things, but instead of ignoring how they should be giving attention like a transgender person does they ignore how they're supposed to receive attention, and only accept attention from their same sex as romantic.
i don't think it's a mental illness. i think it's a lifestyle choice. def still convinced heterosexuality is the only natural way to be.
>>7667063
i guess i don't even have to restrict the time span to puberty in this theory, it kind of muddies my point.
the main idea is that the sexually abnormal person chooses an inappropriate method of attention seeking.
![hqdefault[2].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/NBqs8Bu.jpg "hqdefault[2].jpg")
>>7667063
> heterosexuality
homosexuality isn't the same thing with transtesticles. its basically males getting interested in males or females interested in females.
transgenderism is a whole other thing. it's misindentification of your own sex. it's the disassociation of your natural body or identity.
Hormonal deviations're responsible for transgenderism. It's a fact of life.
>>7667085
yeah i know, my point was kind of confusing to me even. i still think they're both attention seeking behavior. i tend to lump all sexual perversions together since that's how they want to stand up to society.
![tranny[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/HsdWIKy.jpg "tranny[1].jpg")
>>7667091
They are the modern day emos. Thats what makes them unique, atleast in their own dreams. I just feel sorry they don't realize that they all rather turn themselves into subjects of ridicule.
>>7667045
No, they may actually have neither due to mutilation.
>>7667085
>transgenderism is a whole other thing. it's misindentification of your own sex. it's the disassociation of your natural body or identity.
It's a deficit in self awareness. If people stopped, got out of where they are, got away from the internet and the groups it tends to form, and just thought about what identity is, regardless of their environment, I think they might begin to come to terms with their real problems.
It's a philosophical issue. What is it to be male. What is it to be female. How do you determine intrinsic tendencies, separate from culture?
It's a personal issue. What do I want? What is the body, what is the self, and what would be ideal? Where does the discomfort stem from? Is it a feeling of disjointedness, is it wanting certain treatment from others, is it having desires that your culture does not allow oneself to fill. Etc. What feedback loops are at play. And makes the body itself the issue.
It's true that culture tends to be sickly and broken at best. But this transgenderism nonsense, to be entirely honest, looks like a load of bullshit. The brain scan nonsense. The physiological basis nonsense. The tendency for trans people to congregate in groups that then become echo chambers. All of it is a problem. And there are probably better solutions than surgery.
>>7667085
>>7667109
>Posts pictures of dudes in dresses as examples of transsexuals
>>7667443
Not all trannsexuals have surgery, the mutilation argument doesn't apply to a large chunk of transsexuals.
>Taking roids to be unnaturally huge
>ok
>Taking estro to be unnaturally petite
>evil
It's their body why do youc are so much what they do with it? Some straight rugby player in a wig tried to force himself into a ladies bathroom? What bearing does that have on transwomen who actually pass and have zero interest in other women?
>>7663112
Not reading anyone else's posts here- but being a transgender or homosexual is just a chemical imbalance.
>>7667559
[citation needed]
>>7667554
Anti trans people say that men do it to rape women in bathrooms
>>7665239
love is not! justice and mercy are the same.
this is basic, gtfo.
Thinking you're the wrong sex is a mental disorder that's best cured with a Rope.
why not just make a third bathroom toilet for trans-gendered people?
>>7668409
>with a Pope
Here's a question that hasn't really been answered yet in this thread:
How would transgenderism (for a lack of a better word) get cataloged in the DSM-IV as a mental illness?
>>7669501
Axis II: Personality disorders and mental retardation
I'm kinda iffy on the subject. While I do not think that being queer or whatever is a choice, I don't quite believe that it's natural either.
Take a look at the black swans, so called "natural homosexuals". In reality, it's really just a bunch of birds who imprinted on the wrong gender, thus causing them to have queer tendencies. They also seem to have been hunted to near extinction (in the past), possibly influencing the type of behaviour they project today?
I believe homosexuality is definitely caused by outside influences, so it's no something that people choose, rather it's a subconscious result. Also, take into account that most cases of homosexuality happens before the subject reaches puberty, often caused by confusion and pressure from society to have a "crush" or a love.
They are influenced by the growing topic of homosexuality in the media, and think that since they have a friendship with a person of the same sex, that it automatically makes them physically attracted.
So again, iffy on the subject. Just my two cents though, what does /sci/ think of this?
>>7668451
Because it has s completely unnecessary. One either has a penis or a vagina, which are the criteria for restrooms. If one has been mutilated such that their original equipment no longer functions properly, they are disabled and may use the handicapped stall.
>>7668451
Bathrooms are designed to adjust to your genitals, not to the adjective you happen to describe yourself with. And there is no gender that has half a penis and half a vagina.
The qualities that distinguish a mental illness from other mental conditions are that it inflicts persistent suffering on the holder of the condition and/or causes them to harm those around them.
When you take the feeling of displacement with their body and the cotton ceiling (the fact that nobody wants to fuck a tranny, not even other trannies) into account, it's pretty hard to defend a point that transsexualism is not a mental illness. The only thing preventing it from being explicitly defined as such is that they've attempted to throw their lot in with the gays and make it politically incorrect to inconvenience them based on their disorder.
>>7670114
"LGBT"
"T"
I've always wondered what gays think about that lumping together. I suppose in a broad sense you could throw it all together in one loose group. But one of these things certainly isn't like the others.
>>7670121
Gays and trannies have come to blows over the cotton ceiling issue a few times.
>It's your moral obligation to fuck me!
>Really? I don't believe that anyone has any moral obligation to fuck anybody else. Why don't you fuck a tranny?
>I don't want to fuck a tranny! Why can't I just have a normal partner?!
It's really a wonder that it hasn't been properly classified as a mental illness yet. There's nothing even a little bit healthy about being a tranny.
>>7670127
I'm apt to agree. It all seems like a mess of unreconciled internal issues. I'm fine with the "trans" deal, if they want to consider themselves that. But the surgical bullshit is just plain problems.
Either way, trans is next in line. Homosexuality has had its time in the spotlight, flooding and saturating media and popular culture. I just hope people as a whole judge it accurately.
Sex change surgery is a form of self harm.
Someone who wants to cut their penis off is no different to somebody who wants to cut their legs off (yes these people exist).
Yet for some weird reason most doctors will refuse to amputate a perfectly good leg, even if it causes the owner severe stress and discomfort.
>>7670136
The difference from gays is that gays are saying "let us live our lives in peace", while trannies are attempting to coerce and deceive people into sex and relationships that they don't want.
While the far left has definitely formed some bullshit that needs to be identified as the double-standard-promoting white people and male-hating bigotry that it is, it's largely succeeded because they at least started from a point of promoting freedom for everybody. Their protection stems from authority's (news stations, politicians, big businesses) hesitation to admit that they aren't the movements that they once were.
Trannies want to remove freedom because freedom is inconvenient to them. They won't garner the same level of sympathy as the movements of the civil rights era or the gay movement. I suspect that even the far left movements will reject them, when the chips are down, due to arguments like the one that I just gave. A feminist might be happy to try to shame a man into fucking a landwhale, but she'll never accept having the same thing done to her.
>>7663217
Pic related.
>>7670127
So much this. I can't even pretend to take them seriously when they try to extend the definition of rape/coercive sex to include sex you regret the next morning and in the same breath try to coerce others into having sex they don't want. It's a teaching moment if ever there was one.
And this stuff about elliot rodgers being the tip of the iceberg on some "toxic masculinity entitlement culture" is pure projection, ironically coming from the very people who think all sexual standards and preferences are inherently oppressive.
>>7670121
I'm homofag af and "LGBT" has always pissed me off. "LGBTQQIA" even more. Catchall lefty buzzphrases used to lump all us sexually abnormals into a neat, tidy category for political exploitation.
>>7670174
A lot of this. I just want to chill, play vidya and do science. Having SJWs assume I'm a sympathetic ear for their bullshit and look at me like a retarded child when I disagree, being expected to carry forward this or that asinine political zeitgeist, bury this or that pasta company or pizza place over some out of context or unguarded or just not that big a deal remark. Honestly the closest thing I've seen to "straight privilege" is not having to deal with well-meaning progressives.
>>7670121
It needs to change to just LGB
Putting trannies in there implies they are a sexual orientation and are not just the result of mental illness.
Mouse utopia predicted this social behavior
http://io9.com/how-rats-turned-their-private-paradise-into-a-terrifyin-1687584457
>>7664032
This.
The defining line between a mental abnormality and a mental illness is that an illness is maladaptive.
Transgenderism is maladaptive, and therefor a mental illness and not just a mental abnormality.
>>7670298
>Catchall lefty buzzphrases used to lump all us sexually abnormals into a neat, tidy category for political exploitation.
This is what really pisses me off.
The far left is basically a bunch of political arms dealers trying to make everyone who isn't straight, white, and male afraid of straight, white male people. Why? Because fear keeps them hooked, as does reassurance that no problems that they face are their fault and the only thing that they have to do is keep blaming straight white men until their defeat (a very kind and loving goal, conductive towards good will among the human race) magically fixes everything. What do they stand to gain? Money and, if they're running for an office, votes. You think that they speak at college campuses and news channels for free? I wonder how it would feel to realize that they're dancing to the tune of just the kinds of rich, exploitative sociopaths that they hate so much?
It's also abusive towards the white people and men that it holds hostage, under accusations that they're guilty by birth. Much like any other abusive relationship, it preys on their weak internal ethos, using shaming and guilt tactics to force them to accept flawed, self-centered reasoning and behave in a manner that's convenient to the abuser. So much for a movement that's looking to end the idea that anyone should have their life plotted out for them by their birth, huh?
>This is very similar to the far right!
Yep. Horseshoe theory holds a lot of merit.
>>7663112
Define mental illness.
