I used to just make up my own meaning and be fine with that. However, interest wanes and ill be back at square one. Camus doesn't satisfy me but I can't think of anything better than the myth of Sisyphus. What are your thoughts r9k?
One and only bumparu
usually, my existential thoughts regard whether or not i am actually living in a coherent reality. it does not seem like it. this kaleidoscopic shifting of perceptions, with other psychological phenomena, and much delusional content as well--it is literally impossible to derive meaning from the experience of consciousness...so, out of fear or i don't know what, people are compelled to create narratives, and meta-narratives as well. Camus is basically saying that you create a narrative, but authenticity demands that you are never fully credulous towards it, basically that you never forget or deny that it is *only* a story. A bit dodgy, but anything beats crippling depression.
>>26656989
Wittgenstein is surprisingly helpful with existential crises..essentially he demonstrates how reality is mediated through concepts, that there are factual concepts and nonsensical concepts..it is a nice idea, for sure, comforting for a while.
>>26657759
That's interesting. So if you don't believe the outside world to be coherent what are your epistemological conclusions? Thoughts on solipsism? Skepticism?
I believe that the whole that is the world is infinite and will never end, so the exact world we live in now will repeat itself one day, however long it may take. The "you" is the extremely specific combination of atoms and shit that is your body and brain, and because everything is infinite, you will relive your life/a similar life one day. I am not too sure about this all, I still need to think a lot about what consciousness even is, but this does it for me right now. Thoughts?
>>26657801
I plan on reading him in the far future as I'm gonna try and work through things as chronologically as possible. Thanks for the info yo
>>26657930
I've had a somewhat similar conversation before. If the universe is infinite, why are you experiencing other "yous" right now? Additionally, infinty doesn't necessarily mean all combinations. An infinite series could all be the number 3. However you would never know though, cause it is infinite? Shit is always weird to think about.
As far as consciousness I thought of it as the patterns in the brain. Perhaps it's done sort of side effect of senses? Robots don't have consciousness but animals seem to be conscious to varying degrees. Obviously their "brains" are quite different. If a code could seof-write could it eventually be concious?
>>26657876
Skepticism is a kind of safety net, it allows one to act on perception while at the same time acknowledging is fallibility. I am not sure about Solipsism, but I think the idea is that "reality" is merely the invention of the perceiving mind; i can agree with that on a basic level but if it goes deeper than that i'm not sure if i agree.
Since I tend to acknowledge consciousness as disordered and lacking inherent meaning, i am forced to acknowledge pretty often that whatever self i have constructed is a kind of deception, one that i need in order to live, but false none-the-less..usually i will end up feeling like a fraud, and self-sabotaging. I don't know what that has to do with epistemology, probably nothing. I have decided to start taking medication for clinical depression. Because, the lack of coherence does not suggest to me that "anything is possible, since nothing is true"...it is more like there is a truth a "reality" but to see it for what it really is would be repugnant to the human mind as it is, so that we are forced, like someone who become catatonic after being traumatized, into creating an escapist fantasy about ourselves, about each other and about reality..i don't know what to do with these thoughts. I currently enjoy reading Freud.
>>26658022
Not experiencing*
>>26658038
Any specific examples of the lack of coherence? Sounds like some Lovecraft shit right there lol
>>26658022
If the universe is infinite the shit we are experiencing right here right now will repeat itself infinite times. That's what infinity implies.
I think the topic of consciousness is too fucking hard to grasp. You say Robots do not have consciousness, but what if we build Robots that are exactly like humans in every way? Aren't we just robots in some way too? Isn't consciousness just a combination of neurons in our brains? Would we exist twice if we created an exact copy of our brain? Logic has us thinking that consciousness is something rather simple but it is obviously not. Would _I_ just experience my life again in the scenario I described?
Shit's fucked up.
>>26658109
If you were to look at a chair from various angles it would not have the objective symbolic representation that you denote as "chair". It is hard to define positively, i can only derive a sense of it. A combination of studying phenomenology, psychology and taking lsd has brought me to the conviction of it. Psychosis is to me a malfunctioning brain, because the human brain is virtuous for being able to limit perception to a coherent totality. The clearest view is to me one that would resemble madness, it is not useful for the purposes of living.
>>26658253
If we make a robot exactly like us I think it'll be conscious. I was referring to the robits of today. Conciousness certainly is spooky even empirically. Tackling it from a more rationalist perspective would be just as challenging. At worst I'd leave it to science if my brain hurts too much
Any other snobs care to chime in?
>>26658407
So you are saying madness is ultimately closer to how reality actually is, but isn't practical for the normal functioning human being?
Phenomenology is certainly interesting. One day I'll return with more information
I've had a lot of these.
for one, I've thought that our perception of time is constructed. there is no one single moment of the universe. it's all the same to unconscious things - trees, dirt, the air, sky. all one moment.
for another, I think I'm not real.the concept of I is ridiculous to me. I am just the organic process used by my brain to keep myself alive. there is no individual.
I'm not on any stims right now and I just woke up from a 18 hr doze, so let's see if I can get my thoughts out there anyways. My coffee's cooking up in the pot.
Basically, mind-body duality is a crock of shit. There is a major attachment between our minds and the world around us. Sometimes we get so involved with, say, doing homework or fixing a car, that our minds and bodies are one. We work seamlessly, effortlessly. It's only once something goes "wrong" that they separate and we trouble ourselves with meta-questions. This state of analysis is there for us to find out what's wrong. But sometimes everything goes wrong. Maybe we're going through a rough patch in our lives. So we ask questions about all of existence itself -- what is our purpose here?
I believe that there IS an intrinsic meaning for us. There is a correct way to live our lives. You have to look at why consciousness evolved in the first place to grasp it though. I don't think it was for simple reproductive reasons. The nerds who sit around thinking all day don't get any pussy at all, y'know? Instead, I believe the purpose of our lives as conscious beings is CREATION and DISCOVERY. We are designed to build things, to invent things, to challenge the status quo, to build satellites and spaceships, to paint pictures, to make music. From the start, this is what has differentiated humans from the other animals. Researchers have had great success in teaching the more advanced apes to communicate, but they've always had one big problem -- they can't make the damn things ask questions! They can teach them the basic formula of a question, but apes will not, out of the blue, ask a question. This is our purpose here, this is what consciousness is all about. We interact with the world and use it to build great masterpieces and learn how it all works. It's only once we're separated from the world that we start to develop existential angst.
>>26658620
Yeah the phenomenologists (Husserl especially) were influential on the existentialists, and one could say existentialist philosophy from that time was a sort of reaction to phenomenology and the first psychiatrists/psychologists...I am fascinated with psychology because I feel like it is a way to derive a sense of reality beyond my own limited experiences...but I am a 29 y.o. drug addict failure and will never pursue it beyond reading...i am on 4chan after all.
>>26658742
I'd like to live forever so I could find some answers, if any, or a way to be satisfied. Depression, ability, and finances are holding me back atm. Source on apes not being able to question? That seems interesting.
>>26658591
Sometimes I think that maybe consciousness is actually really nothing special and its really just neurons that are connected in a certain way, but it is wired in a certain way so that you cannot grasp the fact that your existence is completely meaningless, in an instinct kind of way, just like how your body is trying to stay alive at all cost, no matter how much you really dread life. Like, nothing of value would be lost when a consciousness dies because it's just an illusion.
>>26658826
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate_cognition#Asking_questions_and_giving_negative_answers
>>26658772
Aubrey de Grey the Ted Talks immortality guy never went to school for computer science but his wife was a biologist or something and he read her books. An idea holds its own merit but there is so much to build off today that most would have to be considerably older to break new ground. How much time are you able to spend reading?
>>26658880
Thanks for the link.
I wonder how long it will be until we find an answer
>>26658742
Existentialists concern themselves with authenticity and truth, and while i can't just deny your worldview, i can say that it is partial, and it is highly likely that you are saying it in "bad faith" meaning that while you portray your viewpoint to yourself as you have described it, you do not consistently or coherently act as though it were the absolute truth. The existentialists like Sartre and Camus wrote about this, and what they were trying to show was that "meaning" is a construct, that it most often was *only* a construct, and the way people live is in fact a lot less coherent and meaningless than we can *actually* admit to ourselves. If you think the existence of human consciousness, and the products of the rational mind are a source of meaning, that is fine, but you saying this just now, you thinking of it, is just a partial, limited phenomenon of your mind...we look for socially acceptable beliefs and espouse those, and downplay our "deviant" sexual beliefs or violent childlike beliefs to ourselves and other people...and it isn't just the unsavory aspects we downplay, we also downplay inconsistencies and incoherencies...i'm not critiquing you really i just don't agree that my existential angst is the result of detachment.
>>26658656
You could also apply the Ship Of The stud to the self. In that case I think we would not exist as a coherent whole, but in some crazy state of constantly dying in a way, sort of like aging and cell repair. I respect science but am more interested in rationalism as a means to truth even though I need to read more. Empiricism can still be a bit depressing
>>26658881
I have had depressive symptoms so I have not been reading for weeks, and actually that is why I'm on here because there is affirmation and acknowledgement here and my energy is so low that I can't adequately read as I would like...so tomorrow I am going to try to get back on meds for this...Late last year I decided to go off because something about medicating myself at the time seemed horribly immoral or fake or something (some dumb shit I believed at the time) and I proceeded to get back on heroin and lose my job, my apartment and so here i am staying with my uncle trying to build it back up...i'm going to have to be a bit more pragmatic in the future and admit that authenticity is not worth being miserable...i don't think Diogenes had clinical depression or living in a barrel would have probably gotten to him eventually.
>>26659101
Well meds seem better than heroin. I sort of thought the same way I think? If I interpreted it clearly that is. A pill isn't going to change my financial situation, how other people are, or give me a reason to live. I used to be on anti-depressants but i stopped taking them. I haven't noticed any differences but the dosage wasn't strong. I might consider your more pragmatic method to get back in if I notice a sharp decline
>>26659173
Those were my thoughts too, that medication could not change the quality of my life nor the conditions i despised...but i have started to think that my depression is debilitating me because of how little motivation or energy i have to even bathe or leave my room at all..if i can somehow overcome it i might just not care for the truth as much.
Start with the basics. What do you know? How do you know?
I know suffering is bad, because I feel it so. Others convey similar sentiments. So I think existing with less suffering is a basic foundation of what we should consider for our society.
The corollary is I think true freedom and pleasure are also good, because they enable each person to maximize their potentialities, to reason on what is ethical, and rationally pursue those ends. Freedom from obstacles like poverty are just as important as freedom to decide our interests and education.
I also believe reasonable people can disagree, but most thinkig people will be within this kind of framework, or their idelogy may differ but have almost identical goals/intents.
>>26659316
Yeah a change in energy levels would always be nice so I can see what you mean
>>26659398
I've thought about suffering a bit. Could you stoicly will suffering away? If you want a something can you disregard the pain? Suffering is different for many people. I like the idea of starting from scratch though it's always handy. Aquinas had something that sort of subverted cogito ergo sum and made me wonder about the course of modern philosophy.
If one were to try and minimize suffering, what would be the most virtuous path in life? Would you become a doctor and help the sick? A politician who could allocate resources to where they needed to be most? Is our suffering caused by our lack of understanding, and thus one should attempt to educate or enhance our own intelligence? That wouldn't necessarily lessen existential suffering though
Gonna head out to do some errands
Hopefully thread isn't kill by the time I get back
>>26659398
If suffering is inherently bad then why does suffering exist?
>>26656989
THIS THREAD, READ EVERYONE
>>26659399
>>26659585
From my experience you cannot stoically overcome all suffering, when it gets strong or it is constant, even minor pains can drive people mad.
What is a virtuous path to end suffering will differ depending on the individual's strengths and interests. For me it means being an educator.
A lot of suffering definitely arises from ignorance, like ignorance of the other ( individual, race, gender, relgii ) and our willingness to go along with treating them harshly, or ignorance of better methods of social organization and technology application.
And a lot of it stems from other things, like selfishness. But one might argue that's also a kind of ignorance (of what is truly good).
>>26659661
Why not?
All because sometbing exists, doesnt mean it cannot be bad.
Anyone look in the mirror and find it really weird that the person there is you. Like that's who you are.
>>26661461
No, that's just what you look like. Who you are a lot more than that. Did you give to the needy? Protect the weak? Love others? How do you spend your time? To what do you give value? Etc. .. that's who you are.
>>26661461
Yeah it felt pretty trippy staring into the mirror too long as a kid.
>>26660256
I'll check it out thanks.
>>26661370
Do you think there is a method or ideology that could seriously stem suffering? What do you believe the root of suffering to be? Physical pain? There is medicine. Want? You could embrace negative hedonism. Or will it all boil down to individual cases?
>>26656989
What is existentialism but a tangled web of semantics? Thought for the sake of thought.
>>26661761
The best thing we can do is to build compassion and fellow feeling. To say what is best is difficult, but we can certainly say that schools focused on developing compassion and wisdom would fare better than Nazi youth camps. So, some ideologies are clearly better suited for the task. And this carries over into political systems. Simple laws for example like that in Utah which ended homelessness by providing them with homes.
I don't know the root, there can be many roots. But it is an experience, and we can as you said have better medicine, but also better social systems and ideologies
Individual cases still matter as well, but any good system is dynamic in that it is flexible in grey areas, but firm in things that everyone needs like clean and safe drinking water.
>>26662689
I think it comes down to how we were raised as children and the social/ cultural expectations that we grew up with.
if you are opposed to these values you might call it "brainwashing" or "conditioning" or "encoding"
this board revolve around sex, marriage an jobs in "the west", which has for the most part embraced varying forms of capitalism and right wing conservative culture up until say the 1950s
and that left wing progressive counter culture really began in the 1800s with the changes that came with industrialism and marxism, which both challenged the old "conservative" monarchies and religious cultures regarding sex, marriage and employment that many today would deem too extreme, but was practiced by the current generations grandparents and passed down to their parents who either rejected it in the 1950s and 60s, become communists immigrating from the east and hippie flower children in the 60s or 70s,
or the parents toned down some of it but passed a good chunk of it onto the other half of the generation.
the counter culture became influential in the media and education, which really took off in the 80s and 90s in youth culture shared by todays under 30 crowd, who also saw the rise of the internet.
however, there is a current part of the under 30 crowd who had parents from the conservative side of the 20th century, and they sought to shelter their children, current generation millennia's, and raised them to become the demographics that inhabit this website and all the personal stories that comes with it.
however, I think it is safe to say the counter culture has already reached a critical mass of millennia's, and those who were relatively religious/ conservative/ introverted are now ostracized by societies new expectations, rules and social norms that were either not tolerated or fought against by their parents and grandparent generations
>>26662689
The simple conviction against suffering is a force as well. Thanks for your input anon
>>26662921
I liked your observation on the things that seem to plague the majority of r9k. Societal ostracization can certainly impact an individual.
If one follows a Nietzsche an existentialism, would suffering be the inavlity to follow one's own meaning? What about other schools of thought? Could the inability to reach a goal be a major factor or one of many?
>>26662194
When you talk about the abstract things are eventually going to get meta. If you state philosophy to be semantics, we do not shape the world around us, we simply want to understand it
