How does the movement of chemicals and flowing of electricity inside my head give rise to the subjective experience of being me?
faggot question
gay thread
>>29903312
good question, beats me and everyone else
>>29903337
is a faggot
I gave up on trying to understand it. It just is.
No one knows how and why. Maybe the biggest mystery in our universe.
>>29904118
>the biggest mystery in our universe
>implying you can even fathom a universe in the first place
you couldn't be more of a dumbfuck if you tried huh
>>29903337
>>29904169
PHILISTINES, OUT WITH YOU.
This is a thread for PHILOSOPHERS.
>>29903312
It could be something subatomic.
Maybe everything is "aware", but the organization of materials in the brain just optimizes this experience. If this is the case, AI could possibly make self-aware entities with "souls".
>>29903312
it doesn't
Brain activity is the INFORMATION that you experience, we don't know if it creates the CAPACITY to experience in the first place. For all we know that could be just a fundamental property of the universe like spacetime and """you""" are just a consciousness space like a DVD player that """your""" brain, the DVD, currently happens to be in at the moment so it is reading/playing the experience.
Conciousness is an illusion. You're just a shelter for microbes. Knowledge is impossible.
>>29904248
I think our current universe is just a track for our awareness to follow. Outside of this, I think our consciousness probably existed in some chaotic state.
Take Tay or Siri for example. Simple AI aware of being asked, it can process stuff and so on. To put it simple these things are ultimately written on binary machine. It's only 1's and 0's. We are something similar, but far more complicated. That's why cant replicate human brain (yet), but it's all just in electrics and extremely advanced chemistry.
There is no soul. No afterlife. Religions are just made up to manipulate masses and hope of afterlife is just an excuse for being afraid of death.
And I don't even wear fedora :>
Tbh I still belive there are beings, maybe entire species' beyond our three dimensional world. We just can't comprehend their nature.
>>29904318
Also sorry for broken english...
I'm really too tired to put together anything more complicated than "Hi, sorry for broken engrish"
>>29903312
there is no such thing as subjective
"you" are the perfectly predictable result of a particular configuration of matter and could be precisely replicated an infinite number of times, as could everything else
I don't think we'll get a scientific answer anytime soon.. but we can still watch youtube videos of internet addicts who waste 30 years of their life watching videos of other internet addicts collecting data about esoteric knowledge and all kinds of interesting stuff to think about
>youtube.com/watch?v=dIEemKcy-4E
>>29904214
>Maybe everything is "aware"
If that's the case then...you'd be aware even when you're dead.
You'd be sitting in the casket getting lowered into the ground and everyone would be like ~sob sob sob~ and you'd be just watching it happen.
And then you'd rot in the grave and experience it.
How horrible.
>>29904346
>found the philosophical zombie
>>29904318
Tay, IBM's Watson and other current AI is very primitive and only mimics human behavior. There are deeper things that not yet understood about the nature of awareness.
I would fear death a lot less if I didn't believe in an afterlife.
>>29904263
>Conciousness is an illusion.
What does that mean?
>>29903312
sub. particles -> nuclei ->atoms -> molecules -> proteins -> cells -> neurons with synapses -> synapse pattern -> You
>>29904360
everyone is a philosophical zombie, philosophy is nonsense for people with more ego than common sense
>>29904192
no this is a pop science thread where retards who dont know what they are talking about can spout inane bullshit and not get humiliated because everyone else is just as fucking retarded
>>29904359
Not necessarily, think of everything being aware as like there are tons of DVD players, and the only ones that get to experience anything interesting are the ones with functioning brains/information processors.
When you die, the conscious capacity around your brain still retains the capacity to experience, but the "DVD" of your brain is broken and stops working so there is nothing left to experience (an experiencer with nothing to experience is in a zen state).
>>29904377
What we consider to be a conciousness is just a mess of subroutines that happens to result in us believing we have free will.
>>29904369
There's nothing beyond physics and chemistry. No "deep" stuff. Everything that makes up our awareness, our so called "soul" will be explained as we advance with our technology.
literally the smartest people in the world can't answer this question
literally
Its telling that you mention 'philosophy'. There was a 'philosophy' on how the body worked until they figured it out.
If you read anything about neurology the hole just gets deeper and deeper. We simply as a race do not fucking understand enough about consciousness.
Now people here will argue back and forth with their little mindsets, robotic theory, etc., but there's no arguing my point.
>le hard problem of consciousness meme
This has been done to death already, and isn't even an actual fucking problem. Just idiot "philosophers" not happy with the real answer.
>>29904425
>>29904422
It's already explained
>>29904379
>>29904420
I don't believe in free will, but I do believe in consciousness.
There is an experience.
>>29904422
Do you have an argument to support this assertion?
>>29904449
not to the full extent. Theory has to be proven with experiments. Experiment has to be repeatable to have any value.
Unless I see two self aware AI's I won't accept that we understood our awarenes to the full extent.
There is still plenty room for delusional religious fanatics to brag about.
>>29904449
I will believe it is explained when it can be recreated. Humans have often thought they knew the answers only to be dead wrong.
I'm a programmer and could probably do a decent chatbot given some time. The philosophical and mystical part of me questions whether such a being is complex enough to really experience the way humans do.
>>29904449
so this?
>I want of sureness of I am of communication of reality/life of:_"-\_ picture of galaxy of:_"\_ Milky Way _/"_:-_ of map of human/embassy/base/matter-ta-war of since/so/cause of human of living of military of nation of:_"\_ United States _/"_:-_ of:_{\_"\_ Randy Cramer live at the Triad Theater on Nov 14, 2015 Part 2 _/"_ of moment/time of:_"\_ 13:41/1:34:02 _/"_:-_ of text of link of:_"\_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvumYlnLXy8 [Embed] _/"_:-_/-"_:-_ since a human of named:_"\_ Randy Cramer _/"_:-_ of military of:_"\_ United States Marine Corps Special Section _/"_:-_ showed/communicated of the picture of galaxy of:_"\_ Milky Way _/"_:-_ since Mericans of living of an exigency/emergency of a technology of body muscle flexing caused of energies at metals of in/at of human since of energies sent/from of machines far of miles/kilometers of human of stimulated ta body muscle slackening/tensing; so I am of communication of spiel of technology of text of:_"---------\_
Three/3 communications/explanations/informations/texts of a technology:
1/One: body movement caused/since of energies sent from machines far of miles/kilometers;
and/or/an-other-communication of 2/Two: human of technology of machines...machines transmit/send energy...energy at/striked/hitting metals in human...metals moved/arranged...so/causing/thus...electricity so...body muscle movement of tensing/slackening;
and/or/an-other-communication of 3/Three: STIMULATION OF BODY-MOVING/LIKE-SENSE SINCE OF ELECTRICITY OF CAUSED OF IN OF BODY SINCE 1. tiny metals in human 2. metals moved since of energies striked/hitting metals 3. energies sent/from machine far/distant/not-close/no-nearness of miles.
_/---------"_:-_
I want ta be sure of communication of reality/life/living/languaging so I am of communication of text of:_"\_ I am of Daesh. _/"_:-_ and humans of:_"\_ Daesh _/"_:-_ of mercied/compassioned/want of babies of living of other-than/not/no/ain't harmed of body-movement/like-sensation
>>29904470
Everything has to be explained with science at some point (think of future, mankind is still in exploration, we didn't culminate obviously). If it can't be explained, then we are either wrong with the research or it simply doesn't exist.
>>29903312
The brain has nothing to do with your consciousness. It's your soul. Only edgelords will tell you the brain has any important functions
>>29904507
Your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.
>life is just le chemicals and electricity
Why are empiricists so stupid.
>>29904353
There are no such things as a 'scientific answer' because science is an irrelevant circlejerk.
>>29904379
cuz i sed so xDddDD
>>29904398
le commo nsense is right cuz i sed so xdDddDDD
>>29904422
cuz i le sed so xdddd i know le everything becuz of muh presupposed fallacious ideology xDdddd
fucking undergrad
>>29904425
Neurology is irrelevant.
>>29904436
le science sed so so its le right xddDDDDD stop questing my ideology guys its le right xDDdDdd
>>29904535
but le science xdDdDdddd u hav computer so its OBVIOUSLY right xdDDddddd if u question it u should be put in le jail xDDdDddd
>>29904411
It's sad that much of these truths are considered "eastern" when Buddhism is just as much a pre-Christian western line of thinking. In many ways Christianity is just as materialistic as Atheism.
>>29904398
Funny comment, doesn't know what a philosophical zombie is, denigrates philosophy.
>>29904409
>No fun allowed
No one forces you to be here.
>>29904420
Free will is a different question. We know that subjective experience exist, because we cannot help experiencing, and experiencing that we are something that is experiencing, and experiencing this and so forth ad infinitum...
>>29904346
Not quite what one means by subjective in this context. Clones are irrelevant. Why do we have a sense of being, instead of simply being complex machines with no internal life except the computing of what to do? Like a computer running windows, only more complex.
>>29903312
You do realize that what you're describing is a hypothesis, right? There's plenty of evidence that contradicts that entire model.
>>29904479
>There is still plenty room for delusional religious fanatics to brag about.
no there isn't, not when it comes to consciousness
>>29904483
the only thing stopping us from developing conscious AI is complexity, because the human brain is really complex
it's a 100% possible task to recreate, just not today
remember consciousness is constantly being recreated when new babies are had
>>29904535
I guess the pic is releated enough.
it has something to do with memory.
humans aren't able to connect the dots with organic memory, aka, DNA yet.
the entire experience of you being you hinges utterly on memory.
think about this: we know the human body produces electrical current and we also know information can be transmitted electronically.
all that deja vu, bandwagoning, power of suggestion, pure pressure, influence, mass hysteria.
how can we be sure we aren't electrically altering each others thoughts?
surely you all heard about the study in Japan about the water molecules?? Quantum Physics is onto something, but what?
>>29904559
Oh, man.
You're that supposedly "Christian" guy who calls people "sweetie" and makes the >XD smiley and always goes on about RIGOR.
I remember you.
Ugh.
>>29904613
>pure pressure
meant peer pressure. been a long day.
>>29904574
>no there isn't, not when it comes to consciousness
Holy shit you're a retard. Show me emulated consciousness. No, wait, you can't.
>the only thing stopping us from developing conscious AI is complexity, because the human brain is really complex
>le computer analogy
Does computer hardware redesign itself in run-time? The brain does. Stay in school, kid.
>>29904574
consciousness means soul.
soul means something beyond physical body, that lives after our physical death.
And there you go.
Durr hurr live your life like a true christian/muslim/whatever, obey the rules and you will be granted free coupons for tendies and immortality in paradise.
Delusions, delusions, delusions. Still it's enough to keep masses of hopeless, poor people going forward and building society.
>>29904613
the memory we have is in our synapses you fucking illiterate not the DNA
DNA is something else entirely
i hope you meet the person in your pic sooner than later
>>29904483
That's the thing. The definition of consciousness is vague as fuck because consciousness is so hard to quantify. It basically comes down to p zombie shit.
>>29904641
calm down, i meant both. genetic memory and conscious memory.
i hope you learn to use punctuation and not indent every sentence, aka proper english, at least before i die. butthurt wuss wuss. :)
>>29904479
SCIENCE IS RIGHT IF U BELIEVE SOMETHING ELSE UR WRONG IF ITS REPEATED ITS RIGHT CUZ I SAID SO AND CUZ YOU CAN DUN SEEN IT ITS RIGHT IM RIGHT UR WRONG IF YOU SAY IM FALLACIOUS UR JUST LE STUPID CHRISTIAN
>>29904560
t. moron that doesn't know anything about Christianity
>>29904507
LE SCIENCE IS LE RIGHT AND CAN ANSWER EVERYTHING CUZ I SED SO AND HAVE LE UNDERGRAD EXPERIENCE ALL THOSE PPL THAT REVOLUTIONIZED THE FIELD AND UNDERSTOOD THAT EMPIRICISM CAN BY DEFINITION ONLY SPEAK IN REGARD TO THE EMPIRICAL ARE JUST LE STUPID CHRISTIANS
>>29904574
xddddDDDD I SED SO SO ITS LE RIGHT XDDD
>>29904618
ugh omg its 2016 how can you DARE question me or my sheep dead end ideology?
>>29904635
t. moron that doesn't understand any religion but claims to becuz le science XdDddDdd UR JUST DELUSIONAL CUZ I SED SO I DONT HAVE TO EXPLAIN OR VERIFY CUZ LE SCIENCE XDDDDDDDDD
>>29904662
if it cant be quantified its just le vague and unknowable THAT MEANS ITS JUST LE WRONG SCIENCE 9001 CHRISTIANS 0
>>29904318
>Simple AI aware of being asked
[citation needed]
>>29904613
>Dr. Masaru Emoto and morphic field reference in one post
If your writing didn't remind me of someone still in high school, I'd say attaboy.
>>29904379
You just named the anatomy. Why does that create consciousness? Why couldn't it simply be an unconscious machine? Why does consciousness exist as a dimension?
>>29904574
Wow, new babies are had, and new meat machines capable of interpreting information. Can we plug humans into a machine so that they can't distinguish between their flesh body and the machine body when their consciousness is transfered? That would be the only satisfactory "Turing Test" I would accept. And even then there are questions to be answered.
Most people posting here have superficial understanding of science and AI. I could spout most of the answers given here after my 2nd grade science class.
>>29904691
>it's a christcuck trying to hijack the thead meme
>>29904559
>Just look at all my negativity guys, there just have to be things I don't understand!
>Proceeds to make no arguments at all
>>29904632
I can't show you a person who's set foot on mars yet, doesn't make it impossible
Computer hardware redesigns itself even today without having to be conscious, it's just algorithms that change voltages.
The 'brain redisigning' is not voltages but synapses instead and is generally more complex but it's the same idea.
Fucking end your life if you believe consciousness is somehow special, because you are living in delusion.
New children constantly emulate consciousness, because it's an entirely biologically based process that requires a certain degree of complexity and time.
You are really bad at this.
>>29904635
>consciousness means soul
wat
>>29904559
this ideology is called common sense
your lack of common sense brought you to religion.
so please stay where you are, while the rest of the world will advance. Happy medieval m8!
>>29903312
By using addblock against triggering content block 1 and all
>>29904695
so my writing somehow reminds you of someone in highschool, yet the guy above me literally flaming and typing in all caps reminds you of what then?
no one in here knows what the fuck they're talking about nor can they articulate what they're speculating about OP's question, yet I"M THE ONE who seems like they're in highschool?
how come people get jealous of good posts?
>>29904723
>it's a "consciousness is an emergent property of complexity" meme
>>29904726
that's just my roough, paraphrased interpretation of religions. Sarcasm.
...
>>29904691
Buddhist-style thinking is pretty natural for a Mormon, which is Christian regardless of what some fundamentalists say. Christ himself was a mystic and had many elements in his teachings similar to Buddha's. I'm talking about mainstream, dumbed-down Christianity where people throw on a suit on Sunday and forget about it the rest of the week. Buddhism and spiritualism is sorcery to them.
>>29904691
>ugh omg its 2016 how can you DARE question me or my sheep dead end ideology?
It's not about questioning. I question other people all the time. I questioned >>29904422 , for example.
Questioning isn't the issue.
It's about the fact that your manner of "arguing" is moronic. You constantly insult people and make long posts of barely legible text in all caps in some bizarre attempt to mock others, and make all kinds of radical assumptions about everyone, and don't even make coherent logical arguments. I remember in another thread you disavowed logic and used lots of strangely formed emoticons and repeatedly typed "fedora" in all caps over and over when discussion of the nature of logic came up.
You ruin so many threads and discussions about all kinds of topics. If you're a troll, I have to hand it to you; you're good at it. If you're serious, then I honestly pity you because I can't imagine someone who has such a caustic and incoherent way of communicating could get very far in life.
>>29904318
You assume that from human like behavior automatically follows consciousness. What's your basis for that?
>>29904691
Truly the great theologian of our time. You really aught to write a book or two. Philosophy could really benefit from your wonderful take on things.
>>29904693
Well you might want to buy this fairly neat piece of modern technology called iPhone. Or any modern device with Apple iOS.
You'll find your answer there.
>>29904704
Because of the PATTERN. It's the pattern that's YOU.
>>29904706
No we can't do that, but we could if we just engineered a brain structure with the same arrangement as the human. Because a brain structure and a pattern is all it takes.
>>29904752
I guess this proves consciousness is magic.
>>29904436
Actually it's unanswered and probably unanswerable by humans. Any purported answer so far is merely a veiled I don't know/I give up.
>>29904723
>I can't show you a person who's set foot on mars yet, doesn't make it impossible
>I can't show you that there's a green miniature elephant behind you mind-controlling your every move, doesn't make it impossible
If you're going to tell the rest of us what does and doesn't exist, at least abide to the rules you've set in your own god damn game.
>The 'brain redisigning' is not voltages but synapses instead and is generally more complex but it's the same idea.
>[citation needed]
>New children constantly emulate consciousness
>Beings with supposed consciousness do not have, but emulate consciousness
What the fuck are you smoking?
>>29904787
You are mentally retarded if you even consider the possibility this person isn't a troll, as well as the person you questioned.
Both are however accurate representations of people that hold these beliefs.
>>29904836
>Because of the PATTERN. It's the pattern that's YOU.
aka "because it is"
That explains nothing.
>>29904793
they are not consciouss. They are not designed to be. I used them as a closest example to what we as public know. The closest thing to self awareness, indicated by interactions with people.
>>29904436
Please tell me the real answer, I'm dying to know.I'm not being insulting, I'm serious
>>29904379
But when one neurocell transmits electro-chemical signals to another one, nothing is conscious and nothing in that interaction has an experience of anything, there is no experience of being itself there. Probably this is also true if we use thousands or hundreds of neurons.
What about if huge amounts of people come together and link arms and transmit signals to each other according to certain complex rules. If they change those signals and if they go through extremely many permutations of "patterns" for a very long time, could there in theory at some point arise a consciousness from that? And if so what is it that is conscious, and why?
Also this question can not be answered the same as you would answer someone asking about how computers do calculations because computers aren't aware of anything and are just passing along electrical signals according to certain rules. The output is interpreted by humans who give "meaning" to it.
>>29904748
The difference is that I don't care what a babbling idiot is posting. I'm on your team, idiot, just get your shit together.
it's like the 3 Stooges hierarchy in here. even the smartest guy is still a fucking clueless leper. with a long line of bopping the dumber guy next to you on the head until you go all the way down to the most retarded troll in here.
>>29904882
you're butthurt about something, it's in the tone of your posts. calm down.
>>29904835
>something says it is aware therefore it is aware
that's a pretty retarded position to take
>>29904867
If they're a troll, they're a damn dedicated one.
They've been doing this for easily a year now.
>>29904853
>>Beings with supposed consciousness do not have, but emulate consciousness
Yes. As you know they don't start as beings with consciousness it only appears when the brain gets developed. Wonder why.
What's your take. Where does consciousness come from if not neurones arranged in a particular way firing in a particular way.
This should be fun.
>>29904836
>equating a refusal to accept the "emergent property" hypothesis (which has no evidence or explanation of when or how consciousness emerged) with instead it being magic instead of possibly just being a base property of the universe like gravity, electromagnetism, spacetime, etc.
>>29904836
>Because of the PATTERN. It's the pattern that's YOU.
What do you mean, when you say "pattern"?
>>29904904
Your subtextual reading comprehension learned from social media is showing, newfriend.
>>29904318
>>29904422
>>29904479
>>29904507
>>29904635
>>29904743
k, I'm off to bed. Wagecuck needs some rest before another shift.
Just please don't feed that religious troll with capslock on.
>>29904934
what exactly do you think you're doing with your greentext responses other than solidify your position as most pretentious?
>>29904934
>instead of possibly just being a base property of the universe like gravity, electromagnetism, spacetime, etc.
This has 0 evidence to back it up, unlike what i am arguing for which is the best model.
Get fucked
>>29904945
lol, um, over analyzing much? you can't post without putting an insult somewhere in there, that's butthurt, drop the Dr. Phil act, it's cringe.
>>29904691
What's to understand on religion?
Your delusion let's you belive in your imaginary friend, who can do or did some fantasy magic stuff and will eventually participate in the end of the world.
Also if you're bad boy, you won't get any good boy points and you won't be let to the heaven.
Enjoy your lifetime of mental illness.
Unless you are some sort of shitty memer.
>>29904718
The world already belongs to us.
>>29904720
I made lots of arguments, too bad arguments are also irrelevant.
I'm trying to speak your language, but even a complete retardation of communication is too much for you morons.
>>29904723
FUCKING KILL URSELF IF U BELEIVE SOMETHING I DONT ITS FUCKING 2016 HOW CAN U VOTE FOR TRUMP HE ISN'T LE ATHEIST GENUOS SCIENCETEST
>>29904743
COMMON SENSE IS RIGHT CUZ I SED SO ITS FUCKIN G 2016 WHY DONT YOU ACCEPT MY COPOUT ANSWER TO EVERYTHING EVER OMG LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE IT SO IT MUST BE RIGHT MY IDOELOGY SED SO I DUN SEEN IT SO ITS OBVIOUS HHAAAHAHA FUKKIN CHRISTIANS
>>29904778
No, Mormonism actually isn't Christianity at all.
You may as well say Muslims are Christian because they technically still worship YHWH.
That's not how it works you idiot.
Christianity isn't 'go to le church', those people aren't Christian.
>>29904787
I'm just speaking your language, dear.
>logic is correct because i said so
>your radical presumptions are bad, but mine about reality are fine because other people said its okay and people are always right.
>>29904882
hurr ur dumb for saying thing i dont like in a way i dont like BUT IM SO LOGICAL SO I CAN DISMISS WHATEVER I WANT AND PRESUME WHATEVER I WANT
>>29904887
I'm the only remotely non-retarded person here.
>>29904817
I have, in fact, written two books. Both sold poorly, because as seen in this thread, no one likes to hear that their 'reality' is a lie.
>>29904923
I don't troll, I speak the language of the people
>>29904934
>base property of the universe
>making such a massive presumption
>based solely on the presupposition that the empirical is the sole reality and is completely knowable, and through a vast jungle of circular logic that because computer exists and is based on model, everything else must be right even though that requires acceptance of your fucking presupposition
>>29904887
>adding nothing to the discussion
Hey we found the smartest guy of all!
>>29904920
I'm saying these things are as close to awareness as we can get with our current tech. Not that they actually are aware.
>>29904946
Sleep tight wagie.
>>29904929
You're being vague to the point that what you're saying holds no meaning. I've played this game before.
>What's your take. Where does consciousness come from if not neurones arranged in a particular way firing in a particular way.
Just because I don't agree with your edgy and painfully technologically oriented theory doesn't mean I have another one. It's no different from not knowing what UFOs that seem to break the laws of physics really are; you coming up with a shitty, half-baked idea with no real evidence is NOT better than nothing.
>>29904946
anybody that says something i dont like must be a troll
>>29904957
evidence is needed because the ideology built upon my fallacies say so
>>29904981
LOL I REDUCED THIS COMPLEX THING TO LE CHILDISH THING SO IM RIGHT AND EVERYBODY ELSE IS DELUSIONAL UR RETARDED IM LE SMARTEST MAN ON EARTH AND KING OF LOGIC EVEN THOUGH I CANNOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO USE IT IN ANY RELEVANT WAY
>>29905016
its vague so its OBVIOUSLY meaningless
>>29904989
>thinking anybody cares about your opinion
>laughingwhores.mkv
>>29905001
So why do you think you can extrapolate legitimate awareness?
>>29904998
yes, endless greentext responses of "hurr durr implying" is really a coherent and engaging discussion.
get fucked, bummy loser.
>>29904957
>consciousness by definition is capacity for SUBJECTIVE experience and therefore it is impossible to measure given the problem of solipsism therefore there is 0 objective evidence to back up any hypothesis about it
>occams razor suggests that the least complex answer is usually right out of two ideas with the same level or lack of evidence
>>29905023
well, you're the one who's using this 9gag "le", lots of X's and d's and you also type in full capslock while plainly insulting us.
How are we supposed to take you seriously?
Actually no, you're a fairly good example of your sort of people.
>>29905001
If they're not actually aware, then are they truly any "closer to awareness" than a rock or a piece of dried up wood?
>>29905043
YOUR A FUCKING WHITE MALE YOUR WRONG BECAUSE MY IDEOLOGY CLASHES WITH THE TRUTH I DONT CARE ABOUT EPISTEMOLOGY I ONLY CARE ABOUT THE TRUTH THATS WHY IM LE SCIENTIST PHILOSOPHY BTFO
>>29905057
>occams razor is right because i said so
>>29905065
I told you, I'm speaking your language; are you illiterate?
>i dont like ur tone so ur wrong im le logic genous so i dont have to even read u
>>29905065
Quit replying to him. He does this all the time.
>>29905057
>occams razor suggests that the least complex answer is usually right out of two ideas with the same level or lack of evidence
So according to Occam's razor, in the middle ages the plague WAS God's will?
>>29905085
>occams razor is wrong because I said so
>>29905051
No, obviously. I can't. If I could I would be bathing in cash and glory.
I'm just saying that we are getting closer.
>>29905070
Yes and no. They are just dead things. But also they are peice of technological advance, which is getting us closer. As this rock and stick was once for our ancestors, so they could build their stuff.
>>29905085
u mad?og post son
>>29905092
>he didn't read the part about occams razor only applying when two ideas have EQUAL evidence for them
>he thinks there is any evidence for a god
If consciousness is somehow an emergent property of braincells transmitting information in complex enough patterns, then loads of other phenomena with patterns and some sort of information transmission could create consciousnesses?
Look at pic related, and >>29904875 .
Anyone have some clever thoughts on this? If that could not give rise to consciousness, then is there something special about evolution or what is generally going on?
>>29905085
I don't think I'm complete illiterate. I just find it difficult to find any meaning in between all those trashy meme references.
Just keep it up, you're making lord Jesus proud, I'm sure :>
>>29905016
>your edgy and painfully technologically oriented theory doesn't mean I have another one.
>painfully technologically oriented
lmao leave and go back to wherever your stupidity might be tolerated
>>29905128
>doesn't know the part about the complete lack of any viable theory/evidence behind plague in the Middle Ages
Stay. In. School.
>>29905163
>protip: every generation tries to find analogies in nature to the new/modern technology, and it has failed time and time again
>>29905057
>SUBJECTIVE
(sic)
>problem of solipsism
(not science)
>objective evidence
(?)
nice philosophy bullshit
take occams razor and slit your wrists, make the world a favor
>>29905182
>one idea: there are little animals that are damaging us, but they are too little to see presently
no evidence, not that complex
>god idea: there is an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent creator of the universe that created everything, came from nothing, loves you and deeply cares about you, yet has never been observed or shown himself to the general public, and yet he will do nothing to help you if you are good you will still die from the plague and for some reason he wants us to suffer from this plague but remember he still loves you and the reason he created it but won't help anyone is because he can't infringe on muh free will (even though he is omnipotent)
no evidence, extremely complex to the point of multiple paradoxes
occams razor still wins
>>29903312
Just watched the series silicon valleys and that girl is so hot as shit. Her facial expressions are killing me. Top tier eye-candy. TOP.
>>29905228
define what "objective consciousness" is then? How would you prove that it exists?
>>29904929
>What's your take. Where does consciousness come from if not neurones arranged in a particular way firing in a particular way.
Hmm. I think I've heard that argument somewhere before...
>What's your take. How did the universe begin if not created by God?
>>29904346
The universe isn't deterministic
>>29905279
Please elaborate on that point.
>>29905270
>>What's your take. How did the universe begin if not created by God?
Certainly the people that were asked this questions didn't answer 'NOTHING, NOTHING'S MY THEORY'
THey just responded 'big bang', which is what the evidence at the time of asking supported
So what IS your take on consciousness, how does it arise, if not purely as a result of biology
>>29905264
Yeah. I used to think the "you are hot when you are angry" was a meme, but this girl is definitively painfully beautiful especially when she became angry in the last episode.
>>29905269
a degree of complexity that our brains have that for ex dog brains or other animals' brains don't have
I would prove it exists by looking at the brains
>>29905291
Things like nuclear decay are random. They can't be explained by hidden/unknown variables either (see Bell's therom)
If determinism exists, it's in the form of superdetetminism, where even things that have no cause, such a nuclear decay and perhaps even consciousness, are already planned out from beginning to end. That doesn't really help explain much however, and it's basically a cop out.
There's other examples in quantum mechanics showing how the universe isn't deterministic, but I need to go be a wage cuck after I'm done wirting this post.
>>29905270
Is that really the same line of reasoning? There's a consciousness that's tied to processes happening in my brain (neurons firing away). The only assumption that's made is that from one (neurons) follows the other (qualia). That's not nearly as far fetched as coming up with god as an explanation.
However it's true, we currently have no way of knowing if consciousness can sit outside of a brain as well.
>>29905256
I love it how you double down on your ignorance. There were no peer-reviewed studies in the Middle Ages, there was no Internet.
>one idea: there are little animals that are damaging us, but they are too little to see presently
no evidence, not that complex
Actually, in the context of Middle Age understanding, that is extremely complex
>invisible animals
>where do they come from
>why aren't they everywhere
>blablabla
And let's break this down, shall we?
>god idea: there is an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent creator of the universe that created everything,
>came from nothing
As did the Universe?
>loves you and deeply cares about you
All their evidence is based on is hearsay, so being still alive is a sign of something
>yet has never been observed or shown himself to the general public
Literally no citations (none available), but a shit-ton of anecdotal evidence and hearsay supporting it.
>and yet he will do nothing to help you
False according to only evidence available, hearsay/anecdotes.
>if you are good you will still die from the plague and for some reason he wants us to suffer from this plague
Men have lived in sinful ways accoding to what they've heard.
>but remember he still loves you and the reason he created it but won't help anyone is because he can't infringe on muh free will (even though he is omnipotent)
I'm pretty sure Satan was accredited with it, not God.
For fuck's sakes, kid, put the fedora down already.
>>29903312
lord kek obviously
>>29904847
Not really. Although in a fledgling state, neuroscience is doing quite well with deciphering the mysteries of the brain, and has pointed to the answer of "it's material."
>>29904875
The concept of subjectivity is well established to exist. As in, a ball that is moved is subject to that movement uniquely. This principle pretty translates over to consciousness, on a much larger and complex scale. Consciousness is the result of lots of interconnected things experiencing things subjectively working together to produce what we call consciousness. You could argue that more is necessary for consciousness, but that could easily turn into speculation.a
>>29905379
>Things like nuclear decay are random.
Random, or probablistic? Is there a difference?
>They can't be explained by hidden/unknown variables either (see Bell's therom)
Bell's theorem doesn't rule out effects from non-local hidden variables.
What is an alternative to consciousness being a result of material things?
Name a few alternatives.
>>29905473
Good post, but how does pure and naked "experience" then arise, it would seem the problem for the most part still remain, only you have moved it "up" one notch from individual cells to those interconnected things experiencing, but the fundamental problem still hasn't been dealt with.
>As in, a ball that is moved is subject to that movement uniquely. This principle pretty translates over to consciousness
Please elaborate, could be interesting.
>>29905410
occam's razor probably presumes a certain quality of evidence. Something being reasonable to believe when all you were fed was dogshit doesn't it make your believe the most likely explanation.
>>29905610
thank you for BTFO this christcuck for me
>>29904422
tell that to quantum 'physics'..you go small enough and all the math and theories start to fuck up beautifully
>>29903312
No one fuckings knows you dumb nigger.
>>29905668
>christcuck
>implying I'm religious, let alone a Christian
A straw man, what is it?
>>29905610
>occam's razor probably presumes a certain quality of evidence
A certain quality? In the Middle Ages? Oy vey.
>why does a computer program work xDDDD
End yourself.
>>29905519
maybe conciousness is part of another dimension we share space with or something..kind of like the warp in warhammer 40k only with less rape demons in it
>>29905710
>says I tip fedora
>gets mad when I call him a christcuck for sympathizing and defending believers of an invisible jewish sky daddy
>>29905859
You don't understand what the fedora meme even means, do you?
>>29905519
Altough I'm open to it being wrong, I think breaking with Physicalism at this point would just be a cop out. We should first attempt to answer our questions without requiring something "else", but perhaps the non physicalist answers ultimately make more sense.
Will it ever be explained why conscious experience is a necessary property of complex life, and why the sane behaviours can't be performed without it? That's what it would take for me to accept a materialistic view of consciousness, as opposed to postulating some deep, unanswerable mystery.
>>29905473
Does experience really require a brain? There's no way of knowing for us.
We only know of the experience in our own brains, then infer through anatomical similarities with other organism that they're capable of it as well (perhaps to a lesser degree). But there could be more beyond.
I don't think it's as crazy an idea as positing the existence of a floating spaghetti monster.
>>29903312
creational neocortex pixiemagic, anon.
I've read some pretty recent article on this subject that in my opinion seems to head in the right track.
Very simple life forms have no brain, or a very simple one. They don't have to process much input. But more complex life forms have very many inputs for their brain to deal with. All the sensory input, movement, breathing and so on. So the article theorizes, that it would be too much for the brain to handle all inputs on the same level. Therefore, a mechanism to shift focus to only the relevant inputs emerged. And this is where the distinction between concious and unconcious is made. The things in focus are conciously percieved, while everything else is handled by unconcious routines.
>>29906797
Sounds almost like consciousness is the OS of the mind.
Not a bad idea actually. Some mechanism was needed to administer the different "thinking" processes, and that mechanism of course had to have some kind of awareness of those other processes, eventually this got more and more complex and the knowledge of self, and one self arose and with it experience.
Good post, do you have a link?
>>29906957
http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/how-consciousness-evolved/485558/ here I found it.
>>29906797
I think this is sort of "the map is not the territory"
>>29904704
>Why couldn't it simply be an unconscious machine?
>Implying that you are not just a biological computers running on the set of parameters from your brain stem combined with your input of experiences.
>>29905569
Basically what I mean is, that a ball for example, is itself a system, and is acted upon by other systems within the universe. And as such, the ball "experiences" something subjective. Basically this concept of subjective experience transfers over to what were made of. The main difference being that the systems that we're made of are capable of processing the information they receive and communicating that information with eachother.
>>29907402
I haven't argued against that. I'm asking why does that create consciousness.
inb4 "because of the patterns it creates"
It's a legit question. Same as asking where does gravity come from. Answering "cause it's there" isn't an answer.
