>there are people who actually believe in God
not trying to be edgy just holy shit amazed that people fall for such a flawed belief.
Can't find physical proof of God?
>he tests your faith by remaining invisible
Something tragic occurs
>It is all within God's plans, he works in mysterious ways that no one understands
Science/History disproves an event in the holy book
>Don't take a literal meaning of the Bible!
Science proves something about the universe
>The Bible said it first in this very ambiguous metaphor!
How can the majority of the world fall to the feet of organized religion or even spiritual beliefs? Does no one even for a second consider how fucked up it is to idolize a figure that wants you to fear him and at the same time adore him? A spiritual being that only manifests itself "in your mind" and is only known because some old books talk about it ? What the fuck.
Religion is the oldest meme on earth
I'm convinced nobody actually believes that their special snowflake in the sky is more correct than someone else's, it's all just people pretending they believe these things to fit in
>god
>not real
lmao ur fukin dumb
>inb4 "b-but da bible!"
fuck the bible, it's dumb fairy tales made up by nigger ass Romans to destabilize those they disliked via making them meek weak faggots who enjoy being cucked
>>29818918
Never thought of it that way. Is the herd mentality really that strong?
>>29818918
Basically this. I find it ridiculous that people hold to these beliefs for dear life without having a proper reason to be believe in them. It's just "I grew up a Christian/Catholic/Jew and I love God". Parents drag their kids to Sunday mass to sing a thousand hymns and convince them that God is real, without providing any form of proper reasoning as to why the beliefs are true. And yet people STILL insist that they know for certain that god is real.
>he tests your faith by remaining invisible
As I understand it, God is more than just a man in the clouds, we're talking about a super-intelligent being, the creator of the entire universe, something that can see every thought I've had or will have, he sees my future long before I have a clue what's going to happen to me. I think most religions\people misunderstand the faith thing - the "faith" that the Old Testament talks about is more about a relationship with the promises made within those scriptures as being God's will, not faith that he exists.
>It is all within God's plans, he works in mysterious ways that no one understands
Anything that happens must be assumed to be tolerated by God, because he made it happen in some sense. As humans it's really hard to understand why suffering must occur. I think when most religious people make this argument they're taking from the book of Job, but oversimplifying what's said in that book and so it sounds callous. If you read the actual writings in Job, the argument that God makes against Job is pretty amazing...and I find it comforting.
>>29819027
>It's comforting
That's the whole basis of spirituality. Normies love that shit because it makes existence that much easier to explain and its the perfect cop out for anything: God dunnit. They just fail to realize that even if there's a million pages of comforting rationalizations for every aspect of life, there's not a single shred of evidence to back it up.
>>29818888
Read summa theologica and then come back to me anon.
NICE QUADS btw holy damn
Youre an idiot people like frank are PROOF god does miracles
Also his face is saying actually the vegan sandwitch isnt bad
>>29819107
Ok but as I see it, the Old Testament scriptures aren't meant in any way as "evidence" in the scientific sense. They're writings meant to encourage the elect. I believe they come from God because what they say speak to my heart - and I feel this is what God's really interested in.
Think about it this way, if you have a girlfriend - do you really want to demand that she give you mounds of evidence of her previous moral character and regular scientific appraisals on honesty and commitment to you? I think you'd ultimately find that worthless. What you want is for her to come to you freely and remain loyal, even in the face of temptations to be with other guys. That's the type of love that would matter to you most.
>>29819129
read on the origin of species instead OP
save yourself the philosophical try-hard mumbo jumbo
>>29818888
You ever consider that they might be right? I mean im not a christfag or anything but seeing as you cant disprove it, theres still a chance it really is correct
>>29819129
>Summa Theological
Cmon. There are so many counterarguments to all the catch-22, philosophical hoo-hah that it's insane to even bring it up at this point.
>>29818888
ffs why do american atheists are so retards.
Please religious people. Don't judge us based on those fucktards from your country.
European atheists literally don't give a fuck about religion and live their lifes.
Only in US there's this on going struggle, because atheists are full retards that consider themselfves better than all of you. It's a shame really.
I'm an atheist. I'm never trying to convince you guys to not have faith. It's just a personal choice and i like to live this.
>>29819192
I'm an evolutionary biologist. I literally do research on evolution as my job. I've never read origin of the species but all the math I used is based on assumptions from it and other evolutionary theories.
Science cannot disprove god. And just because you don't understand my man Aquinas doesn't mean you get to dismiss his work.
It's ok anon, nobody cares that you're an atheist. Just like nobody cares that I'm a christian.
But I'm right.
I wish i could belive in some supernatural power it would atleast give me some reason to live
>>29819027
> he sees my future long before I have a clue what's going to happen to me
Welp, you just threw "free will" out the window.
>Science can't explain consciousness, fundamental thought processes, and free will
>If the big bang theory is correct, it is literally impossible to to find out what happened before the big bang, as events before a singularity cannot be predicted.
>>29819227
Listen. I know you've never studied theology because you can't name a single counter argument. I bet I could name more counter arguments then you. I'm aware that Aquinas is imperfect, I recommended ST as a starting point for OP to begin exploring philosophical christianity.
It's alright man, someday you may or may not learn the truth. Your soul is saved regardless, as long as you're a good person you have nothing to worry about.
>>29819256
From what I've read of the scriptures, the position of the Bible is 'compatibilist'. God predestines everything we do, but from our perspective we are certainly making choices in life.
Let's not get into this though because free will debates always run for hundreds of comments and that'll derail the OP's thread.
>>29819204
If there is not reason to believe it's true, why bother? I can make up 500 alternate explanations to the existence of the universe that are just as valid. I'm not gonna go around worrying whether or not they turn out to be true.
What I do have a problem with is people acting with complete certainty about beliefs they didn't logically reason themselves into. People who would legit give their lives for a spiritual position that they were convinced to believe.
>>29819027
Don't listen to this guy, this is heresy. Don't even try to say what god is. For a thought exercise try to understand the trinity. Three in one, one in three. Mortal human god with eyebrows and kneecaps, yet all knowing and omnipotent.
We simply can't grasp the truth of God. Science and logic can make passes at it, we can glimpse it in moments of brilliance, but for now we've got to be faithful and loving and hope for the best.
>>29819311
A loving god would never ask you to give your life for him, he delights in your joy here on earth. If anything he wants you to spend your life finding happiness and love.
If your God tells you to hurt someone it's time to do some serious prayer. and talk to a psychiatrist.
>>29818888
Good god read some Aquinas, or Leibniz if that's what you think people believe.
>>29819340
>If anything he wants you to spend your life finding happiness and love.
r u srs?
>>29819241
>science cannot disprove god
Religion cannot prove god
>>29819311
Yeah but if you're wrong, you might be tortured for eternity
>>29819241
>science cannot disprove god.
and Christianity can be proven?
Sure, let's say I'm insecure since scientists haven't yet explained every phenomenon in the universe. Why should I, a cultural hindu, choose your origins meme instead of my parents?
Even if you want to be spiritual, and think you are deep for pretending to understand the origins of the universe and our planet, why would you insist one specific religion describing is correct?
>>29819279
I didn't name a single counterargument because you didnt mention a single argument. You just said the name of a piece of work from 800 years ago that has been dissected meticulously.
The thing about spirituality is you can't logically reason yourself into it, because the evidence for the belief isn't there to begin with. You rely on faith alone.
I don't know if there is a god but if there was he would be male desu
>>29819288
Oh, convenient.
I may be wrong, but the bible doesn't say shit about god being omnipotent, omniscent or omnipresent. That is, like the cop out "compatibilist" -argument (there is no free will, but don't tell the puny humans), made up afterwards when those questions became too unconfy.
>>29819378
>>29819351
I would never claim to provide proof for God, that's heresy.
I would point you to studying the life of Christ, studying the bible, and honest prayer. All of these will build faith. Logical support can be found too, but you've already said you don't like philosophy.
Honestly anon. I don't understand your hangup here, some people believe in god. You're probably smarter than me. I'm not in engineering and on 4chan, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But there's no way in the world that you're smarter and more aware of logic and science than every single person who earnestly believes in their faith, so why don't you try to practice some empathy and figure out why they believe?
>>29819344
Theologists who have meticulously studied the holy scripture definitely do believe in more complex explanations for the existence of God.
You think Juanita, some middle class Catholic in Honduras actually logically explains why she believes in God? Or some random average Christian American? They believe in God because that's what it's predominate in their culture. They don't think about the arguments in favor of intelligent design, they just heard their pastor say "If you go outside and see the beauty in the trees, mountains and oceans, you can see God's creation!"
>>29819420
I'm sorry I'm having trouble understanding what you're arguing.
Firstly, "compatibilist" means a believe in both free will AND determinism, that the two work together. It doesn't mean there's no "free will". Once again these debates are always worthless because it seems to be very hard to come to agreement on these issues because it involves mental leaps.
I do think the bible at various places does imply that God is certainly omniscient. I'm not sure about omnipotent or omnipresent because those things require definition first.
I disagree with your image, btw. God can permit or cause evil without that necessarily making him malevolent. Some very bad things have happened to me in life that were really painful and awful at the time, but I was able to see that these were good for me in some sense.
>>29819391
Aquinas is a starting point. You haven't read him, I don't want to give you an intro to philosophy course over 4chan, so I'm inviting you to do some personal study.
You're throwing grenades over a wall, so to speak. I'm inviting you over the wall. Check out what's on this side, put some real effort into it, and then decide if you want to continue to throw grenades.
>>29819469
They believe in their faith because they were indoctrinated into it from a young age, there's nothing more to it. The accomplishments of religious people do not lend any credence to religion
>>29819500
I'm interested. Throw me some basic arguments to see if it's worth it.
>>29819514
So you honestly believe not a single one of these people, who are some of the greatest questioning minds to have ever existed, turned a critical gaze to their own faith?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists
>>29819543
Copy pasting Aquinas.
You can poke holes in these, but you can't dispute the train of thought which has been developed and refurbished by christian philosophers til today.
We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.
Nothing exists prior to itself.
Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.
If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).
Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.
If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.
That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).
Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.
Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
>>29819543
We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, that come into being and go out of being i.e., contingent beings.
Assume that every being is a contingent being.
For each contingent being, there is a time it does not exist.
Therefore it is impossible for these always to exist.
Therefore there could have been a time when no things existed.
Therefore at that time there would have been nothing to bring the currently existing contingent beings into existence.
Therefore, nothing would be in existence now.
We have reached an absurd result from assuming that every being is a contingent being.
Therefore not every being is a contingent being.
Therefore some being exists of its own necessity, and does not receive its existence from another being, but rather causes them. This all men speak of as God.
>>29819353
Yeah but if you're wrong, you will have wasted your only years of fleeting existence.
>>29819543
Our senses prove that some things are in motion.
Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion.
Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.
Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another).
Therefore nothing can move itself.
Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else.
The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum.
Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
But if you wanna jump all the way to Kierkegaard you should.
>>29819492
> "compatibilist" means a believe in both free will AND determinism
Compabilitism, you can do whatever you want, but you can't want anything else than what you want. I would argue that that is an illusion of free will, but whatever.
Compabilitism does say that your path is set (and known to god in this case), so in that case we're just puppets acting out a set play on this scene to please god.
>>29819694
Yes, as I see it - everything I do is ultimately predestined by God, but for practical purposes - I'm not God, I'm not omniscient, I'm a limited human being with limited knowledge - and I have to make real choices in the world. I don't feel like God is pushing me around.
The things is, whatever philosophical position any of us come to on these issues - the parameters of our existence are unchanged.
Belief in God is innate. That's a fact you can't deny. Why would every single culture on earth develop a spiritual sense otherwise? Humans are a spiritual animal. You are only denying that drive.
They say believing in God isn't rational. But how far can you take rationality? Eating, drinking and fucking isn't rational because who gives a shit what happens to a bunch of organisms on an isolated rock in space. It would be rational to just stop eating and die. But you keep on living because it's part of the human experience. Rationality be damned. So why not believe in God? It's not rational, but it still enriches our lives.
Of course he isn't real in the sense that he isn't a material entity that exists in space-time. I could say that God exists in the same plane as our consciousness, which also seems to be abstract, and you could say "oh that's cop-out, you can't prove or disprove his existence", and you're right. I'm saying it doesn't matter. Life is about being happy, and religions seem to be this inbuilt thing that humans have to achieve it. Just like the drive to eat, and the drive to have sex, we have the drive to acknowledge the divine. And I choose to follow it to achieve as much happiness as I can. Psychological studies have shown religious people are, on the whole, much happier than the non religious.
If you are an atheist, and you are truly happy, contented, and at peace, then maybe you don't need God. Maybe you have found another truth that makes sense of the world. And I am happy for you. But if you are an atheist and are suffering psychologically and spiritually, well, you know why, so don't complain.
>>29819771
don't absurd this conversation up ya fuckin poof
>>29818888
>rating a being you can't comprehend by the human idea of a flaw
Athiememes. At least Nietzsche basically conceded that faithless people, himself included, basically have no reason to act like human beings.
>>29818888
>all this arrogance and self-righteousness
Who /agnosticmasterrace/ here?
>>29819771
Read Sam Harris' "Waking Up". He delves deep into that human drive, how it works and how it can be compatible with a secular worldview.
>>29819825
>2016
>Retards still haven't figured out that gnoscism vs agnoscism and theism vs atheism are answering two different questions
>>29819595
That train of thought was derailed with quantum mechanics.
But if we follow Aquinas arguments we would reach the same conclusion if we just are a simulation inside an aliens computer playing a very intricate game of The Sims. Is that something we should worship?
>>29819729
Why would you feel like a god pushing you around? Nobody is pushing a wound-up doll around, it is just released.
>>29819350
just because you cant get a gf or are a virgin isnt gods fault, YOU have to go out and do those things for yourself.
>>29819825
This belief appears to just mean "we don't really know what happened back then"
sounds about right desu, is there any legitimate complaints with agnostics
>>29819890
>Why would you feel like a god pushing you around? Nobody is pushing a wound-up doll around, it is just released.
Well determinism and compatibilism say more than that. If everything is determined, that means every single moment of my life is determined by God, not just everything up to a certain point at which I'm 'released' into the wild. Every other person and everything they say is also predetermined by God, so every reaction and interaction I have must ultimately be his design.
I'm just saying that I don't "feel" like I'm being pushed around, because "I" am this limited consciousness that's making these choices in the moment.
>>29819871
Must be working up quite a sweat jumping to all those conclusions huh?
The appeal to religion is more having a certain set of values and rules that you must follow and never break them. Through this, you can be a better person, having a good afterlife as a goal.
There's also a big community and it helps people to bond.
Then there's autists like us who don't know how to fit on society and chose to be atheists cause they don't believe in God, even though no one with a brain fucking believes in God. They follow a religion cause it's a useful tool in their lives.
>>29819353
What if God actually hates organized religions and makes all who follow them burn in hell? This is equally as likely as any of the other ideas, so there's no point in using this argument.
>>29819236
>ffs why do american atheists are so retards.
I don't understand fedoras. Faith is about faith, and no matter how hard they try to misunderstand religious texts and doctrine it won't stop being about faith. Why can't they live and let live. Regardless of whether it's real or not it's valuable from a cultural viewpoint.
>>29819966
> [...] "I" am this limited consciousness that's making these choices in the moment.
You are playing out those choices according to "gods plan", i.e. following the figurative mechanics in the doll.
But somehow you are to blame when the time comes.
>>29819966
> [...] "I" am this limited consciousness that's making these choices in the moment.
You are playing out "gods plan" with those choices, i.e. the figurative mechanics in the doll.
But somehow we all should be accountable for those pre-determined choices when the time comes.
>>29820067
>I don't understand fedoras.
Your problem seems to be that you don't value truth. The Christian scriptures for example call for people to either be 'hot or cold' towards their God. How can you love God if you don't love truth?
Why shouldn't an atheist challenge belief? Shouldn't even a Christian challenge certain beliefs in the pursuit of understanding God and correct 'doctrine'?
Atheists believe that religious people are wrong, and often believe that religion is harmful. Half the time religious people agree with them, just not about THEIR religion. Why don't you accept that atheists are entitled to have their own opinions and speak passionately on them?
>>29820068
>>29820117
>But somehow we all should be accountable for those pre-determined choices when the time comes.
Are you talking about Hell? I'm a Christian who believes that the Hell-doctrine is an adomination to God and that God sets his face against people like that. When the Old Testament speaks of "judgement", it says things like "god will bring all things into judgement", it's not saying this in a threatening "YOU WILL PAY!!!" kinda way, it's talking about basically all acts being seen as the effects\causes that they are, and that when we experience this, it will be a terrifying day because it means we won't have any place to hide or pretend that we're innocent when we accuse others of wrongdoing.
i fucking wish i was a normie, going to church every saturday/sunday, believing in a god and not feeling completely worthless. at least i'd be happy
>>29819937
they might go to hell and are too lazy to pick a side
>>29819340
God is a she lol
>>29820216
>pick a side
What is this, football
>>29820229
oh and man is male? If god is female she'd be called a goddess
>>29820125
Christians love truth, that's why we value science and virtue so much. Atheism is wicked, look at communism. Atheism leads directly to mass murders. Religious people respect religious people. I think Muslims and Jews are going straight to hell but it's respectable when they follow their beliefs. Their cultures would just be empty and fake without the religion too. I also enjoy reading a lot of taoist philosophy. Atheists don't care about religion, science, or philosophy, except to bash the fields and goad people into Internet fights.
>>29820237
both football and theology have battles between two sides and they're both really hard so I quit both and became an agnostic
>>29820285
communism is christ-like. we should all be treated equally and didn't the disciples sell their belongings? nationalism is a form of pride so it must be sin, too.
>>29820181
That's the exact same thing though, you're just framing it differently. God is perfect and just. We can't apply any moral judgements on his actions because he is the judge and source of all good. The people who bitch about damnation are the same ones who bitch about gravity and other natural laws. They just want to bitch for the sake of bitching and no amount of explanation can fix them.
I'm a Roman Catholic that attends mass every week, ask me anything about religion.
>>29820381
>100% of saved are male
kek
>>29820324
You're obviously not very familiar with scripture or doctrine. Communism couldn't be further from Christianity, they are incompatible. We are not equal and should not be treated equally. God tells us to be proud, including nationalism. The disciples were told to sell their robes to buy a sword if they didn't have one. Try reading the Bible, or at least the pentateuch, gospels, acts, and revelation. They have annotated versions that will explain the cities, ethnicity, and cultural references.
It's because people need something to motivate them and it gives them a sense of security. The existence of God gives them hope that even if their life on Earth is suffering, maybe one day they'll be rewarded for it and see all their dead relatives and dreams come true. It gives them an explanation for why the world is the way it is without actually having to think deeply about it or acknowledge the depressing true nature of existence.
I would've added a few women as well, but you get the gist of it.
>>29820181
> Are you talking about Hell?
Nah, not really. I'm just saying that accountability follows free will. Even I know that the cartoonish meme of hell isn't really what christianity says.
At the moment I'm convinced that our Universe is indeed deterministic, and if there is something to be called a creator it is most certainly not a god, more likely an accident.
>>29820417
It gives them a cultural identity and a spiritual lens for tackling the difficult issues in life. It requires incredibly deep thought and meditation. Atheists take the lazy way out that requires no thought.
>>29820193
Just attend a mass near you.
Here you can find some in your area: http://masstimes.org/
Sending someone to hell for eternity is by definition infinitely more evil than any sin a human can commit. The christian god cannot exist by definition.
>inb4 people send themselves to hell.
An all powerful god could get rid of hell with the snap of a finger. Why doesnt he?
>>29820454
This tbqh
Atheists just say "fuck it, I don't see it, so it must not exist. Everything is what it seems on the surface".
>>29819623
Which is meaningless anyway so nothing was really lost, and you won't care afterwards since you lose counciousness completely. The mere concept of "dominant genes" also loses meaning.
>>29820527
You really think you're so above God you can make moral judgements of him? Egotistic fucks like you deserve hell.
>>29818888
I was raised in a christian home and while I sincerely hope there is a heaven and Jesus and God and all that good shit waiting for me when I die, I just find it harder and harder to believe the older I get.
>The conversations with creationists where you have to smile and nod at their completely ridiculous theories about science or nature
>the 0% success rate on any prayer you've ever made, no matter how small
>the weird "am I in a cult?" feeling you get at church as everyone chants these weird ass songs and gives money away for shit like refugees or youth camps
>the christian friends that are no better than non-relgious friends other than their not so vague moral superiority.
I guess I will find out when I die but my experience with Christians and Christianity while in this mortal realm left me with an unsatisfying childhood / young adulthood filled with frustration and bullying, angry, abusive, impossible to please parents, lots of letdowns and wasted hope, and not much else.
I just feel like either everyone else is deluding themselves or I am missing something because I've never felt the presence of God or anything supernatural, no miracles, no tongues, no answered prayers, just a big empty void of wasted time and people who seem to get something that I don't.
>>29820381
Are you even aware that Catholic Doctrines have strayed too far from what Jesus and his Apostles have thought to the first generations of Christians? Your church is a literal antichrist. Read your bible, mister.
>>29820698
*taught
>>29818888
>Can't find physical proof of God?
Well no that's why He's God
>Something train occurs
God doesn't interfere most of the time
>Science/History disproves an event in the bible
Some things aren't ment to be literal. And besides, but evolution and creation say that the sea animals came first.
>Science proves something about the universe
Yea okay nice job science :/
>>29820536
>>29820454
Religious blinders tell you that you need religion to have meaning. That's just not true. You have found meaning thru ancient dogmas, good for you. I'm serious, if youre happy, Im happy for you. Just dont try to convince everyone else they cant have meaning because thats what your book tells you.
>>29820641
There is no ego is saying 'I don't know'.
You think of all the millions of gods, religions, and views of the universe, you have found the correct one? Hah, can't get more egotistic than that.
>go to language exchange site to learn some Arabic and get links to songs
>they keep trying to convert me
>>29818942
>Durr the bible is full of fairy tales
Only retards who haven't read it and/or have the reading skills of a 4 year old say that. Atheist or Religious, The Bible is one of the finest writings of the in Human History and contains the finest Humanities.
>>29818888
Eh, religion (except Islam) is still healthy for civilization.
>>29818888
No way I'm reading the whole thread but this is what amazes you? In a history of fucked up shit, the existense of religion is what amazes you?
>best beliefs
>best scientists
>best philosophers
>best community
>best girls
WHY
THE FUCK
aren't you a catholic, robot?
>>29818888
>I learned everything I know about religion from reddit
>the post
>>29821039
>implying i'm not already
>>29820797
You're not just saying you don't know though, you're using flawed reasoning to judge the one who supposedly created you. By definition anything God does is good if we're speaking from a Christian point of view.
>>29819353
It's not like it's a 50/50 chance you idiot. It's literally just as likely as the infinite amount of explanations that a person can make up. How can people literally not take more than 10 seconds to logically scrutinize their whole fucking world view?
Religion is ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason to believe in a god if you drop the pretense of conflating order with intelligence and drop the idea that somehow an "unmoved mover" is necessary.
>>29821098
that's *a* Christian point of view, ie the most neurotic and pointless christian view. but in practice most christians preface the supposed benevolence of god on more universal precepts than pure moral relativism. they're far more likely hem and haw over his callousness and cruelty when it's pointed out rather than handwave it completely.
>>29821098
I'm using the internal logic of christianity to show that it's BS.
>By definition anything God does is good
So killing everyone on earth in a flood except for 1 family is good, gotcha. Also, god commanding tribes to kill other tribes is a-ok! If god came to you and told you to kill someone, you would be obligated to do it because it would be good. Do you see how fucked that is?
>>29821263
Its *the* Christian view. If you don't believe God is good and perfect then you aren't a Christian.
>>29821314
How else would you judge the Christian God? Atheists believe he doesn't exist. If we suppose he exists then he exists in the framework he is supposed to exist in. If we are judging him then we must use his criteria of good. If He created it then he can do as he pleases with his creations.
>>29821350
>Hasn't even read the bible
Even God took advice from Moses when he wanted to burn his people but Moses told him not to
>>29821350
>no true scotsman
oregano pastaliami
>>29820406
>God tells us to be proud, including nationalism.
So for Facism in Italy, Japan, and Germany and the World War II is religion-like? Is religion to blame for those things, just as atheism is to Communism?
You guys respect other religious people and still believe in a scripture that dehumanizes them, saying they're going to suffer from eternal torture?
>>29818888
>filthy frank poster
>doesnt have enough philosopihical insight to see the value in religion and a religious society
>and then he claims the numale "its just so obvious bro1!!!"
>there are people who actually don't believe in God
>>29818888
im sure most christians dont even beleive in their own bullshit
hell, most christians i see wear mixed fabrics erry fucking day. and god HATES that shit.
>>29821541
>value in religion and a religious society
That's not the topic of discussion. Way to straw man.
>>29821428
That's a lot of ifs. Just because you can conceive of a god that makes sense to you does not mean it exists. Our morality comes from culture and empathy and it's always changing and evolving. There's no need to appeal to a god.
when are they going to stone faggots
instead of seething in judgment in the corner
>>29821575
desu wyu when something gives society moral value theres probably something good behind it
stemfag socialists are cancer that do not see the true way of the world
>m-muh """"""""""""logic""""""""""""""" that only dumb people can overcome
>>29821640
here is your (You) friend
>>29821640
Morality doesn't come from religion. People don't need to be told that killing is bad
>>29821663
thanks, why is it you people always speak in irony and dismissive dishonesty? such a cancerous way to look at things. you think youre just objectively correct, "muh logic muh common sense', and anyone that disgarees is automatically being silly and can only be responded to as a joke. pure trash
>>29821686
yet individual atheists have been responsible for more deaths than religious people
>>29821693
this is my last (You), savour it
>>29821591
What do you mean that's a lot of ifs? We're talking a hypothetical scenario and using if then statements. Are you not a native English speaker?
>>29821720
Toss me a citation, senpai.
>>29818942
I used to pray for times like this, to rhyme like this, so I had to grind like that to shine like this; in a matter of time I spent on some locked up shit in the back of the paddy wagon, cuffs locked on wrist.
I seriously doubt there are many people who actually believe in a god, just some scattered mentally ill people. Most religious people just enjoy the dogma and ceremony and the fact that it helps keep them away from other coping mechanisms that are harmful.
>>29821764
stalin and hitler were two
alot of other commie / nation socialistic dictators
>>29821693
>I'm objectively correct about god and if anyone disagrees theyre cancerous!!!
Oh the hypocrisy
>>29821748
Well, I see no reason to posit a god because it doesnt really explain anything. But even if I did I see no justification for assuming he'd be good or created good. And even if he did, that doesn't mean he can do whatever he wants with his creation. Your parents created you, does that mean they can kill you anytime they want?
>>29818888
i believe in theosophy.
come at me bro
>>29818888
First of all nice quads
Second I'll pray for you
>>29818888
>open /r9k/
>le filthy Frank
OP make a trip so I can filter you
>>29822049
filthy frank is great you contrarian aspy
>>29821860
Hitler was a catholic. I'll give you Stalin, but I don't think Stalin out did all of the murder and torture done in the name of religion both before and after him.
>>29818888
How do you know that anything is real outside your own mind?
How do you know that your own mind exists outside of sensory data?
How do you know anything exists outside of sensory data?
Fair weather skeptics and positivists are the worst. Logically you can't prove much of anything. If anything has a good foundation of knowing anything it's the idealists school of thought that can very easily incorporate a belief in God.
>Can't find physical proof of God?
Something cannot come from nothing. Therefore the universe existing is proof of an external Creator.
>Something tragic occurs
Consequence of man's sin. We have the free will to be good or shitty.
>Science/History disproves an event in the holy book
Most experts agree the validity of historical accounts in the Bible like nations warring/migration. You'd be hard pressed to find a historian that doesn't at least agree that a Jesus of Nazareth lived and existed.
>Science proves something about the universe
And? Why are you butthurt if the Bible says the same thing
>>29818888
Childhood indoctrination can be very powerful.
>>29819552
look up cognitive dissonance, and remember that some ridiculous figure like 80%+ of scientists are at least agnostic atheists
>>29819241
>Nobody is right
>lets just respect other's beliefs
>I am right
Fuck you
>>29822405
>Something cannot come from nothing.
FUCKING WHY THATS JUST ANOTHER CLAIM.
>>29822405
>Something cannot come from nothing.
But god can create the universe from nothing?
>Consequence of man's sin.
Which is a consequence of how god 'designed' us. Also there's no freewill if god knows what's going to happen.
>You'd be hard pressed to find a historian that doesn't at least agree that a Jesus of Nazareth lived and existed.
Citation needed. There are no recordings of jesus outside of the bible from that time, and josephus has been proven fake.
>>29822405
>Something cannot come from nothing.
Exactly. That's why the universe could not have been produced. The logical conclusion is that the universe was not produced.
>Most experts agree the validity of historical accounts in the Bible
Not really. You might find one thing here or there that matches with actual history, but that doesn't speak for the rest of the bible.
>You'd be hard pressed to find a historian that doesn't at least agree that a Jesus of Nazareth lived and existed.
That doesn't mean he was the son of god.
>>29818918
My rel Ed teacher in school was convinced he had encountered god.
There's a theory that schizophrenia is actually the brain failing to prune ancient synapses that were once normal and that's how people came up with gods thousands of years ago. They literally got signals from their brains that an apexternal power was enlightening them.
>>29822569
>>29822525
>>29822592
>But god can create the universe from nothing?
Read: External
He is not under the constraints of his own creation
>Which is a consequence of how god 'designed' us. Also there's no freewill if god knows what's going to happen.
"designed us" you clearly have not even read the material you are arguing against and got your points from family guy skits. we only got to where we are because of eating from the knowledge of good and evil. just because he knows something doesn't mean it's his fault like I know you will be sucking dick this weekend but it's not going to be my fault.
>Citation needed. There are no recordings of jesus outside of the bible from that time, and josephus has been proven fake.
Wrong. While your latter claims have no sources.
>That doesn't mean he was the son of god.
That part is Faith. But you cannot deny he actually existed in Jerusalem at that time.
you fedorafags should stick to pleb sites like reddit
Most religious people don't even bother to read any bible shit, none the less live by its teaching. Most Normies just boil religion down to "following the teachings of hippie Jesus" and forgetting the old testament exists
Lol right the world just randomly exists for no reason at all.
>>29818888
Nice quads.
Made a thread about this on /pol/ yesterday. Didn't get many satisfying answers.
Like you said, I don't know how people can figuratively suck the dick of something that allows so much suffering to happen and exist.
>b-but he's testing us
Why? Objectively speaking, why is there a need for testing in the first place?
I envy people who can just let go and hope that there's something better after death though.
>>29822736
>He is not under the constraints of his own creation
That doesn't matter at all. God would still have had to inject new material and energy into the universe, which cannot happen.
>But you cannot deny he actually existed in Jerusalem at that time.
Sure I can, and I do. All the accounts of Jesus' actions have been made years after his alleged existence, meaning that all of such claims come from secondary sources, at best.
>>29822744
>Most Normies just boil religion down to "following the teachings of hippie Jesus"
jewish subversion. forgiveness without repentance. accepting Jesus' without showing Him through your life. etc. is all liberal shallow crap interpretation.
>old testament
covenant with God was changed since. only jews follow this because they don't want to accept the Messiah shunned their ways and saved Gentiles as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=typ2pl2L47k
>>29822736
>He is not under the constraints of his own creation
A made up being that makes no sense, gotcha.
>just because he knows something doesn't mean it's his fault
god designed us and knew we would fall into sin. could he not create us with free-will without having us sin? If not, he's not all powerful. If he could but didnt then he wanted to send most of us to hell because he know we'd sin.
A magic being that can do anything can by definition explain anything. But the time to believe it is when there's actual evidence. faith is a mind virus, not a virtue.
>>29822847
>That doesn't matter at all. God would still have had to inject new material and energy into the universe, which cannot happen.
Why? This claim doesn't make sense. Even Science believes the universe started out as a void.
>Sure I can, and I do. All the accounts of Jesus' actions have been made years after his alleged existence, meaning that all of such claims come from secondary sources, at best.
citation needed. you can google right now for these sources of non-Biblical mentions of Jesus. even the Romans ended up adopting him as their Savior despite "not crucifying him"
>>29822945
>A made up being that makes no sense, gotcha.
He makes sense. While you on the other hand simply accept something just popped up from nothing when Science will not accept even this presumption. Dumb. Reality came somewhere.
>could he not create us with free-will without having us sin?
He did. Garden of Eden. Perfect utopia where humans would not want for anything. But we had the Free Will to fuck it up and that ended up happening.
your bitter fedora is palpable
>>29823030
I believe Garden Of Eden is a metaphor of a time when humans were barely starting to get creative and intelligent with their minds. Once we acknowledge what was good and bad, all hell broke loose. This is why as children we follow what society says because we don't know what is good or bad so we take the fruit of knowledge from the outside only to fuck us up even more. Why it feels good to feel sin because its awe to us.
>>29822975
>Even Science believes the universe started out as a void.
Uh, no. That doesn't even make sense. The big bang wasn't a "void.">>29822975
>you can google right now for these sources of non-Biblical mentions of Jesus
All of which come from after Jesus' alleged life.
>>29823030
>While you on the other hand simply accept something just popped up from nothing
Straw man. The christian nothing and the scientific nothing are not the same. Look up lawrence krauss's a universe from nothing.
>Reality came somewhere.
But god always existed? Nice special pleading.
>But we had the Free Will to fuck it up and that ended up happening.
So humans are punished for disobeying god before they had any knowledge of good and evil. Do you see how that makes no sense?
>your bitter fedora is palpable
Typical salty christian has to resort to adhoms.
>>29823138
So what was there before the Big Bang? You're really retarded or willfully ignorant at this point
Again why would the Romans the very people who crucified him end up adopting him if he didn't exist. Also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus#Historicity
you aren't smarter than actual historians because you browse fedora sites
>>29823150
>The christian nothing and the scientific nothing are not the same.
semantics
>But god always existed? Nice special pleading.
Nothing special about it you just didn't understand. He's external to this reality since he created. He doesn't have to follow the laws of this reality. Maybe he is under different Laws. Maybe none at all.
>Do you see how that makes no sense?
Sinning=knowledge of evil which is what disobeying God was. How is this inconsistent in any way.
>adhom
more like observation. you should try it sometime.
>>29823580
>So what was there before the Big Bang?
Everything the universe is made out of.
>historians
The people mentioned in the article are all new testament scholars and theologians, not historians.
>He doesn't have to follow the laws of this reality.
He does when he's acting within this reality.
>>29823580
>semantics
Semantics matter. Maybe if you cared more about the meaning of words you'd shed your superstitions.
>Nothing special about it you just didn't understand. He's external to this reality since he created. He doesn't have to follow the laws of this reality. Maybe he is under different Laws. Maybe none at all.
"The universe exists so it had to have a beginning. God exists but he's different!! He never began!!" The very definition of special pleading.
>Sinning=knowledge of evil which is what disobeying God was. How is this inconsistent in any way.
You're not getting it. Before adam and eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they did NOT know about good and evil. Therefore they shouldnt be held responsible for disobeying god.
>So what was there before the Big Bang?
Argument from ignorance fallacy. "we don't know what happened therefor god did it."
Please stop with the 1st grade apologetics and do some research.
>>29823735
>He does when he's acting within this reality
I am the owner a company and you work for me. You are doing the work. Work rules are that you can't leave. I can because I made them in the first place.
My 2 cents on Pascal's Wager:
PW basically means that you might as well worship and believe in God cause if you don't, at worst you might go to hell, and at best you have only wasted a couple years with all the time spent on worshipping God.
But PW assumes that the Christian God is THE only god. What about the ancient Egyptians? The Romans and Greeks? The Norse? Shinto?
Too many different people claiming to have the right god(s) famalam
>>29823981
Bad example. The laws of thermodynamics forbid reversal of entropy of any kind. If you had made a rule where everyone was forbidden from leaving, and one day entered the premises, you too would not be able to leave. Like the rules of a sports game, those who invented it don't get to cheat simply because they created the game. They still have to play by the rules just like anyone else.
>>29824009
If you live life worshipping shit just because you're afraid to be punished and have no desire to live by what is most likely true, you're a coward.
I don't believe but the alternative isn't anymore logical, also it helps some people cope. You may say that you should be strong enough to cope without some stupid god but then why are you on r9k while others are making something of their short lives.
Then you have the sense of belonging to a group and how it laid a core of good morals that our society was built upon.
I wish I could delude myself to follow a God. A lot of people are brainwashed into believing it, there is nothing wrong with that brainwashing though, it might not advance science but it's good for society.
>>29824009
I don't think you even waste years, there are lots of personal benefits in believing in God too.
Read the Book of Mormon, praying and asking for a spiritual witness that it is true. If you do so faithfully, the spirit of The Lord will let it be known to you, will testify, that the book and God as described in it are legit.
>>29818888
And I thought /b/ was a shit hole
>>29819256
>Welp, you just threw "free will" out the window.
Free will doesn't exist anyway and is totally illogical. It defies determinism and non-causal actions thus rendering it impossible.
1: Do things follow on from past events?
--> Then there is no free will.
2: Do things not follow on from other events?
--> Then there is no free will,
>>29820285
Well why the fuck are muslims and jews going to hell. We didnt do shit nigga.
Also quads
>>29820917
Literally kill yourself goyim
Everything that exists is evidence for God. Only a fool would think all of this just came to be by chance.
>>29818888
Christianity is so engraved deeply into those who follow it that they will literally block out any solid evidence against it because they are afraid of going to hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTL0-RH2LfU
>>29825142
>because I say so
>>29818918
It is like that for a lot of people. They are desperate and they want to believe, and their friends and family pressure them to remain pretending. Even Mother Theresa did not feel anything anymore.
>>29825338
I don't know what kind of believers you know, but my God is the Living God. I can go to Him in prayer when I need something and I will get it. I've seen God work miracles in my life and in the lives the others. I don't believe by blind faith, but in results.
>29819027
If a god exists, it probably is unlike anything like Yahweh or any of personal gods humans have made up. The bible is literally irrelevant.
>>29825467
>The bible is literally irrelevant.
The Bible is literally the most relevant book that exists. God does exist and one of his many names is Yahweh.
>>29819129
>a book by a 13th century cuck who didn't know shit about modern physics
>an argument
Lol keep up with times
>>29819241
>I am right.
No, you're delusional.
>>29825488
You went full retard
>>29825488
Do you know the origin of the name Yahweh?
It's the sound of breathing.
Yaahh (inhale), Weehhh (exhale)
YOU are God. I am God. God is life and death. God is the duality of existence. God is consciousness. The bible is just man creating god their image, God can not be summed up by the stories of man.
